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Author Topic: Concerning the Ecumenical Patriarchate  (Read 4322 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: June 29, 2005, 03:53:57 AM »

Moving this from another thread I would like to disscuss certain issues in greater depth -

GreekisChristian claimed that what Saint John Maximovitch wrote in the below linked article is libel.  How are the events recorded here false?

http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/decline.aspx

This is a similar article with many of the same assertations, but also with more detail.  http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/quovadis.aspx
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« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2005, 01:08:34 PM »

Don't forget to mention that apparently, since St. John isn't commemorated by the Ecumenicist - er, Ecumenical Patriarchate, he's not a Saint. Roll Eyes

Carry on.

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« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2005, 02:02:15 PM »

Moving this from another thread I would like to disscuss certain issues in greater depth -

GreekisChristian claimed that what Saint John Maximovitch wrote in the below linked article is libel.ÂÂ  How are the events recorded here false?

http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/decline.aspx

This is a similar article with many of the same assertations, but also with more detail.ÂÂ  http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/quovadis.aspx

Libelous Attacks:

'Increasing without limit their desires to submit to themselves parts of Russia'

Constantinople has not exercised her canonical authority over any part of russia proper, which she continues to allow to be governed by the Synod of Moscow, she has only stepped in for situations outside the bounds of the russian state when the Russian Synod has acted in a manner inconsonant with the well-being of the faithful of the said state.

'The moral authority of the Patriarchs of Constantinople has likewise fallen very low in view of their extreme instability in ecclesiastical matters.'

Constantinople has consistantly maintained her posistions on issues and has received the support of the Majority of other Orthodox Churches, not the least among them include Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem.

'having lost its significance as a pillar of truth and having itself become a source of division, and at the same time being possessed by an exorbitant love of power—represents a pitiful spectacle which recalls the worst periods in the history of the See of Constantinople.'

If Constantinople's goal was power, she would have invoked her rightful and canonical authority over all slavic lands and took them under her direct control. But she has not, she allows for independence and self-governing. Far from creating division she has been a source of Unity, even maintaing the Unity of the Orthodox Church throughout the difficulities of the Communist era, when certain bishops desired to overthrow lawful synods and tear the Church asunder. Rather it can be clearly observed that Constantinople acts with the best interests of the Church, if not popularity from the masses, in mind.
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« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2005, 02:30:17 PM »

Completely leaving politics and theology aside, I gotta agree with others here that references in posts to the Ecumenical Patriarch goes way beyond obediance to one's bishop and hinges on patriarchate/hellenic worship. But then, we all could tell that was coming from the name "Greek is Christian," couldn't we? It's scary to me that a non-Greek would say that. Heck, it's scary to me that a Greek would say that. Or a Russian. Or a Serb. Or an Arab. Or an American. But, these are the challenges we face *sigh*.
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« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2005, 03:21:03 PM »

Although I cannot agree with these monks completely and while they use the roac name even though they were excommunicated, when someone is all in to neo-papal patriarchalism, it is always fun to bring up this link.
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« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2005, 04:14:57 PM »

Link no worky.
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« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2005, 04:17:06 PM »

Beayf: http://roacamerica.org/art-kiss-heresies.html
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« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2005, 04:34:26 PM »

[quote author=Νικολάος Διάκονος link=topic=6541.msg85178#msg85178 date=1120072863]
Although I cannot agree with these monks completely and while they use the roac name even though they were excommunicated, when someone is all in to neo-papal patriarchalism, it is always fun to bring up this link.
[/quote]

Link no worky.

Oops, sorry about that! The link is fixed now!
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« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2005, 06:13:12 PM »

Don't forget to mention that apparently, since St. John isn't commemorated by the Ecumenicist - er, Ecumenical Patriarchate, he's not a Saint. Roll Eyes

Where do you people get your "facts"? The Fox Network?
The EP commemorated St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco 11 days ago:
http://home.iprimus.com.au/xenos/maximovitch.html
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« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2005, 06:31:52 PM »

Quote
Where do you people get your "facts"? The Fox Network?

I think in this instance the "fact" came from GiC.
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« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2005, 06:38:40 PM »

Where do you people get your "facts"? The Fox Network?
The EP commemorated St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco 11 days ago:
http://home.iprimus.com.au/xenos/maximovitch.html

Psssst...you shouldn't have said this.  Now he'll probably alert the Phanar to stop this "sloppy" praxis.
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« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2005, 08:21:48 PM »

The fact that he is listed on a website of an Archdiocese of the Oecumenical Patriarchate does not mean that he has been commemorated by the Phanar, there's a good chance the Phanar doesn't even know about this. With that said, if he is commemorated by the Phanar, has been entered into their Synaxarion, or is regarded as a Saint by the Patriarchate then I yield that he is a Saint. But even if he has been regarded as such, his attacks on the Oecumenical Throne are still Libelous and unbecomming of the Episcopal Dignity...but no one is perfect, not even the saints.
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« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2005, 08:34:34 PM »

Some more "libel"...

Quote
I bow in reverence before the age-old achievements of the Great Church of Constantinople, and before her present cross which is neither small nor easy, which, according to the nature of things, is the cross of the entire Church - for, as the Apostle says, "When one member suffers, the whole body suffers." Moreover, I acknowledge the canonical rank and first place in honour of Constantinople among the local Orthodox Churches, which are equal in honour and rights. But it would not be in keeping with the Gospel if Constantinople, on account of the difficulties in which she now finds herself, were allowed to bring the whole of Orthodoxy to the brink of the abyss, as once occurred at the pseudo-council of Florence, or to canonize and dogmatize particular historical forms which, at a given moment, might transform themselves from wings into heavy chains, binding the Church and her transfiguring presence in the world. Let us be frank: the conduct of the representatives of Constantinople in the last decades has been characterized by the same unhealthy restlessness, by the same spiritually ill condition as that which brought the Church to the betrayal and disgrace of Florence in the 15th Century. (Nor was the conduct of the same Church under the Turkish yoke an example of all times. Both the Florentine and the Turkish yokes were dangerous for Orthodoxy.) With the difference that today the situation is even more ominous: formerly Constantinople was a living organism with millions of faithful - she was able to overcome without delay the crisis brought about by external courses as well as the temptation to sacrifice the faith and the Kingdom of God for the goods of this world. Today, however, she has only metropolitans without faithful, bishops who have no one to lead (i.e. without dioceses), who nonetheless wish to control the destinies of the entire Church. Today there must not, there cannot be a new Florence! - St. Justin Popovich, Letter to Bishop Jovan of Sabac and the Serbian Hierarchs (May 7, 1977)
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« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2005, 12:51:22 AM »

Completely leaving politics and theology aside, I gotta agree with others here that references in posts to the Ecumenical Patriarch goes way beyond obediance to one's bishop and hinges on patriarchate/hellenic worship. But then, we all could tell that was coming from the name "Greek is Christian," couldn't we? It's scary to me that a non-Greek would say that. Heck, it's scary to me that a Greek would say that. Or a Russian. Or a Serb. Or an Arab. Or an American. But, these are the challenges we face *sigh*.

Well said, choirfiend.
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« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2005, 02:52:16 AM »

Quote
'Increasing without limit their desires to submit to themselves parts of Russia'

Constantinople has not exercised her canonical authority over any part of russia proper, which she continues to allow to be governed by the Synod of Moscow, she has only stepped in for situations outside the bounds of the russian state when the Russian Synod has acted in a manner inconsonant with the well-being of the faithful of the said state.

The EP did do much meddling in lands controlled by Russia, even if they are not Russia proper.  Of course you will say it was in the church's best interest - a point which is opinion and not objective (from either perspective).  But it cannot be denied that the EP did actions to weaken the MP. 

Quote
'The moral authority of the Patriarchs of Constantinople has likewise fallen very low in view of their extreme instability in ecclesiastical matters.'

Constantinople has consistantly maintained her posistions on issues and has received the support of the Majority of other Orthodox Churches, not the least among them include Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem.

Remember this was written in 1938 when the memory of Patriarch Meletios was still fresh in everyone's mind.  The EP did make some major mistakes, that is undisputable.  For example Patr. Meletios broke communion with St. Tikhon and entered into communion with the Russian "Living Church."  Other actions such as the calendar change and the greatly increased ecumenical involvement caused scandal to many, with other churches responding very negatively (i.e Patriach Damianos of Jerusalem).  So yes it is entirely fair to the say the EP at that point and even today is not the moral authority it was even 150 years ago.

Regarding Saint John Maximovitch - the issue with Saint Leo of Rome is completely irrelevant, but if you feel there is an injustice in the forum policy that is an issue you should speak to the admins in PMs about.  Back to the real issue at hand - Orthodox jurisdictions besides the ROCOR accept the glorification of Saint John.  Does this mean that you believe that only the EP (much like the Pope) can glorify a saint, that no other local church has this grace?  Or is it still the issue that you are completely ignorant of the practice of the church you idolize - that the vast majority of non Greek saints aren't in the Synaxarion of Constantinople?
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« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2005, 05:53:37 AM »

The fact that he is listed on a website of an Archdiocese of the Oecumenical Patriarchate does not mean that he has been commemorated by the Phanar, there's a good chance the Phanar doesn't even know about this. With that said, if he is commemorated by the Phanar, has been entered into their Synaxarion, or is regarded as a Saint by the Patriarchate then I yield that he is a Saint. But even if he has been regarded as such, his attacks on the Oecumenical Throne are still Libelous and unbecomming of the Episcopal Dignity...but no one is perfect, not even the saints.
Huh
Um...Isn't St. Mark Evgenikos commemorated by the Phanar? Didn't he say some nasty things about the "Oecumenical Throne" (I think this is a stupid appellation btw). I think you will find that the Phanar has entered St. John Maximovitch into the Synaxarion, and even if they hadn't, the Patriarchates of Moscow, Antioch and Serbia certainly have, and surely you recognise their Saints?ÂÂ  And if you do recognise St. John Maximovitch, do you consider you have the right to blaspheme the Saints, accusing them of "libel" by virtue of the fact that they spoke of the failings of the "Oecumenical Throne"? If the Saints had not spoken against the "Oecumenical Throne", we would all now be Nerstorians. Don't turn the "Oecumenical Throne" into an idol and a substitute for Christ Who alone is the Head of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Stop making the "Oecumenical Throne" into the "Vicar of Christ."

And please do not bring shame on to Greek Orthodoxy by presenting phyletism as the standard. We are not phyletists. Greeks have always had a deep respect for Russian Orthodoxy, I remember how moved Archbishop Augistinos of Florina was when he saw the Russians worshipping: "They weep in their Liturgies and Services- it is to our shame that we do not weep."

 I don't know about the US, but here in Australia there are thousands leaving the Ecumenical Patriarchate to join ROCOR, and the Synod in Resistence exactley because of the new ceasaro-papism of what you call the "Oecumenical Throne". The Greek Orthodox Community even requested the Patriarchate of Jerusalem to establish parishes here three years ago, but the "Oecumenical Throne" forbad it with threats of deposings and excomunications.
The Phanar has indeed fallen as St. John Maximotvich said, and I say this as one of it's own sons.

If I were you, I'd beg forgiveness from St. John Maximovich for your disrespect, and from God Who is "wonderous in His Saints."
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« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2005, 09:03:12 AM »

Just a quick general thought before I leave for work.

When the Ecumenical Patriarch came to Chicago for a visit, there was a large hooplah for a weekend which is all fine and good and definately should occur. In response for this generous planning and obedience from Orthodox in Chicago and around the US, the Patriarch presents us with a 4 Hour Hierarchal Divine Liturgy served in..... GREEK. That really does alot for us Non-Greek Speaking Orthodox. Was the Patriarch trying to tell us something? Using Greek in the land of America where most Orthodox Churched have incorporated English for better or for worse?  Ever since that day, I do not hold the same level of respect for the EP that I once did.


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« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2005, 10:20:27 AM »

When the Ecumenical Patriarch came to Chicago for a visit, there was a large hooplah for a weekend which is all fine and good and definately should occur. In response for this generous planning and obedience from Orthodox in Chicago and around the US, the Patriarch presents us with a 4 Hour Hierarchal Divine Liturgy served in..... GREEK. That really does alot for us Non-Greek Speaking Orthodox. Was the Patriarch trying to tell us something? Using Greek in the land of America where most Orthodox Churched have incorporated English for better or for worse?ÂÂ  Ever since that day, I do not hold the same level of respect for the EP that I once did.

Well, when Metropolitans Theodosius and Herman went to México, they served in English. Were they trying to say something to the Mexican Exarchate of the OCA, which has long served only in Spanish?

My priest can't say the Creed by heart in English if his life depended on it. Sometimes it's hard to serve in English if it's not your native language, and if you're used to the Divine Services in another tongue--especially such a complex service as a Hierarchical Liturgy! Just a thought.

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« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2005, 11:42:25 AM »

[Well, when Metropolitans Theodosius and Herman went to México, they served in English. Were they trying to say something to the Mexican Exarchate of the OCA, which has long served only in Spanish?]

I doubt very much if either Metropolitans speak English.  And I'm sure the Liturgy wasn't entirely in English since some of the Mexican clergy most probably were concelebrating.

However, it is a known fact the EP can understand and speak English.  I once saw an interview with him a few years back where all the questions had to be preapproved by him and were written in English.  After his reading them and picking the ones he would agree to answer the cameras came on.  The interviewer would read the question in English and the EP would reply in Greek and have a translator!

Reminds me of the early days of SCOBA where all the Bishops would be conversing in English while in the hall waiting for the meeting to begin.  Once the meeting came to order the Greek contingent would switch to Greek and have it translated.  What a waste of time, energy, and pride!

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« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2005, 12:11:36 PM »

It is the right of His All-Holiness to determine both the language he will serve in as well as the language those under him should serve in. The problem is not that His All-Holiness served the Liturgy in Greek (He's the Oecumenical Patriarch, the Primate of the Imperial See, what other Language would he serve in?), the problem is that the Church in America, in defiance of His All-Holiness serves in English. The Patriarch had established that the Liturgical Linguistic Norm was Greek long before his trip to Chicago.
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« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2005, 12:17:38 PM »

It is the right of His All-Holiness to determine both the language he will serve in as well as the language those under him should serve in. The problem is not that His All-Holiness served the Liturgy in Greek (He's the Oecumenical Patriarch, the Primate of the Imperial See, what other Language would he serve in?), the problem is that the Church in America, in defiance of His All-Holiness serves in English. The Patriarch had established that the Liturgical Linguistic Norm was Greek long before his trip to Chicago.

Of course it is his right, but also to his (and his flock's) detrement for NOT serving in the vernacular of the local people.  No ifs, ands or buts about it.

You know, GiC, it is OK to disagree and not have the exact same opinions as the EP.  He is human too.
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« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2005, 01:52:41 PM »

Of course it is his right, but also to his (and his flock's) detrement for NOT serving in the vernacular of the local people.ÂÂ  No ifs, ands or buts about it.

You know, GiC, it is OK to disagree and not have the exact same opinions as the EP.ÂÂ  He is human too.

I am not always in perfect agreement with His All-Holiness, but generally speaking I believe he has the best interests of the Church in mind. And on the language issue, I agree with him whole-heartedly, the Greek Language is not only the Historic Language of the Liturgy, which has Always been used by the Great Church of Christ, but it also helps maintain a vital link between the diaspora and Greece.
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« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2005, 02:12:27 PM »

I am not always in perfect agreement with His All-Holiness, but generally speaking I believe he has the best interests of the Church in mind. And on the language issue, I agree with him whole-heartedly, the Greek Language is not only the Historic Language of the Liturgy, which has Always been used by the Great Church of Christ, but it also helps maintain a vital link between the diaspora and Greece.

Other languages have also been used, after all, saints created the alphabet that gives us Church Slavonic. ANcient Greek may have always been used, but not always the only language used. If the Church Fathers went to each land and refused to use the local language then we would not have seen the massive conversions since the people would not understand them. Saint Cyril, SaintMethodius, Saint Nicholas of Japan, Saint Innocent, all are great examples to serve in the native language of the people you are serving.
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« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2005, 05:03:53 PM »

I doubt very much [that] either Metropolitan speak [Spanish].ÂÂ  And I'm sure the Liturgy wasn't entirely in English since some of the Mexican clergy most probably were concelebrating.

Liturgies on both ocassions were indeed entirely in English, as were other Services, but this is besides the point.

However, it is a known fact the EP can understand and speak English.ÂÂ  I [....] saw an interview with him a few years back where all the questions had to be preapproved by him and were written in English.ÂÂ  After his reading them and picking the ones he would agree to answer the cameras came on.ÂÂ  The interviewer would read the question in English and the EP would reply in Greek and have a translator!

When people speakÂÂ  publicly, they usually don't wish to be bound by their linguistic shortcomings. Archbishop Alypy of Chicago and Detroit can read English, and speaks it more or less understandably--yet His Eminence doesn't usually make anything but personal, informal remarks in English. Also, not long ago, I was invited to be part of the panel in a conference on Dostoyevsky at a local university. One of the other panelists, a PhD in Russian literature, spoke through an interpreter. Yet she speaks Spanish more or less understandably, and reads it well! But alas, she didn't wish to misspeak, and so chose to speak in the language in which she's fluent. Also, I don't suppose I'd like to speak publicly in Dutch, although I can read it well and speak some!

Reminds me of the early days of SCOBA where all the Bishops would be conversing in English while in the hall waiting for the meeting to begin.ÂÂ  Once the meeting came to order the Greek contingent would switch to Greek and have it translated.ÂÂ  What a waste of time, energy, and pride!

Yeah, no kidding...

Anyway, in the end, protesting "How dare he not serve in English!" is methodologically indistinguishable from protesting "How dare he not serve in Greek!"

My priest's grandmother knew the Paraklesis, many Psalms, and all kinds of other prayers by heart in Greek, which was the language in which the Orthodox Albanians heard the Divine Services until the 20th century. We have all these wonderful things translated into English, but how many of us have bothered to pray them enough (if it all!) to be able to commit them to memory? And they're in a language we can understand! We are truly inexcusable.

--Julio
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« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2005, 06:54:09 PM »

I am not always in perfect agreement with His All-Holiness, but generally speaking I believe he has the best interests of the Church in mind. And on the language issue, I agree with him whole-heartedly, the Greek Language is not only the Historic Language of the Liturgy, which has Always been used by the Great Church of Christ, but it also helps maintain a vital link between the diaspora and Greece.


If Greek was meant to be the final language of the Liturgy, then why did Cyril and Methodius translate the Bible and Liturgy and other important church writings into Slavonic? It would seem that their work would've been for naught and that the Slavs would all be speaking Greek. The idea behind Greek being the end all, be all answer to liturgy is very Nationalistic in nature. Further, if Greek was meant to be the language of the liturgy, why does the Patriarch accept the Carpatho-russian church under his Omophor when the Diocese is 100% English serving related to the Liturgy?

I'm not trying to be confrontational here, I'm simply trying to offer an opposing opinion.

Nick
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« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2005, 06:56:05 PM »

[We have all these wonderful things translated into English, but how many of us have bothered to pray them enough (if it all!) to be able to commit them to memory? And they're in a language we can understand! We are truly inexcusable.]

Huh?  I don't know about you but I pray entirely in English and so does every other Orthodox I know who is 60 or less and born here in the U.S.  where English is the native tongue.

How much of that Kione (sp?) Greek you listen to in Church is understood by the Greeks in attendance?  It seems that on those occassions I have attended Liturgy in a Greek Orhodox Church the younger generation either comes in late or looks  bored out of their minds.  Most don't even know the proper times to make the sign of the Cross or bow.  Not so in my parish or any other English speaking parish I have been in regardless of the jurisdiction.

I attended a 'Greek Festival' about a month ago. ÂÂ A young Greek college student gave the tour. ÂÂ Most of the questions that were asked he could not answer. ÂÂ I had to chime in to help him out. ÂÂ When asked why he was Orthodox he replied..."Because I'm Greek and Greeks are Orthodox!" ÂÂ  That's is all he could add. ÂÂ I find that pretty sad.

My five year old Goddaughter goes around the house singing the Trisagions, Communion Hymn, and other selections from Vespers and Liturgy.  And her mother is a convert from the RCC and her dad is a convert from the Lutheran Church.  And, by the way she knows all her prayers in English and has a pretty good comprehension of what she is praying.  You should hear her pray 'Oh Heavenly King'!

The parents friends are Baptist who like to proseltyze.  When they come over she sings 'From this day forward all generations shall call her Blessed!"  Why she choses this particular Hymn no one but her knows.  Seems she comprehends more than we give her credit for!

Orthodoc
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« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2005, 07:19:27 PM »

Huh?  I don't know about you but I pray entirely in English and so does every other Orthodox I know who is 60 or less and born here in the U.S.  where English is the native tongue.

My point, which seems to have been missed entirely, is this: that while those who are native English speakers have full prayer books in their language, often they neglect this treasure. This is where the example of my priest's grandmother comes in: she, an Albanian, never heard any Service or prayer whatever in her tongue, but only in Greek. And rather than complaining about this, like I do because we have no full prayer books in Spanish, she simply learned the entire Paraklesis, many Psalms, and multiple other prayers by heart in Greek. Again, how many English speakers have prayed all of the wonderful things they have available so insistenly that they have learned them by heart? The Faith of this simple woman puts us all to shame.

(I myself pray in English because no full prayerbooks are available in Spanish, which is my native tongue; but this is besides the point.)
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« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2005, 08:35:25 PM »

Quote
Again, how many English speakers have prayed all of the wonderful things they have available so insistenly that they have learned them by heart?

Julio,

um, not that i am speaking for my self, but i dont understand how you can assume this about all Orthodox English speakers (it just doesn't come off sounding fair - the simple fact that we speak English natively means we don't have the discipline to pray frequently enough to memorize the prayers in the prayer books we have been blessed with? rings unfair in my ears)...no one of us can know what our brother or sister does in his/her private prayer life, only God and to some extent one's spiritual father.

In Christ,
Donna Mary
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« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2005, 09:22:26 PM »

um, not that i am speaking for my self, but i dont understand how you can assume this about all Orthodox English speakers (it just doesn't come off sounding fair - the simple fact that we speak English natively means we don't have the discipline to pray frequently enough to memorize the prayers in the prayer books we have been blessed with? rings unfair in my ears)...no one of us can know what our brother or sister does in his/her private prayer life, only God and to some extent one's spiritual father.

Surely it wasn't too difficult to recognize this as a rhetorical question? Also, no implication about any qualities or defects inherent to speakers of any language is contained in my words, and frankly, I fail to see how they could be so misconstrued. (The funny part about that is that I'm usually the one getting on a soapbox when people speak of, say, the "propensity for heresy" of Latin!) In any case, the point is again sorely missed: that we often neglect those things given to us by God's goodness, and those who have far less run with their treasure. May God help us!

--Julio
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« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2005, 09:27:39 PM »

In any case, the point is again sorely missed: that we often neglect those things given to us by God's goodness, and those who have far less run with their treasure. May God help us!

Hey, man, I get you...it's the same for anyone in any language; we take for granted the stuff we've never had to do without.  It's one thing to gripe about this or that foreign language in the liturgy if you actually want to know what's being prayed; it's another thing to gripe for the sake of griping, with no intention of actually praying in your language regularly.

And have you made any contact with Abp. DMITRI in Dallas?  There's a hieromonk, Fr. Efrain Najera, who leads the services at La Misión de la Transfiguración in Mesquite, TX, and one if not both of them could get you stuff in Spanish.  I myself have morning and evening prayers, plus vespers and the entire Divine Liturgy.

Pedro, who wrote in English so he'd be understood by more than just Julio...  Grin Wink
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« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2005, 11:22:51 PM »

Quote
We have all these wonderful things translated into English, but how many of us have bothered to pray them enough (if it all!) to be able to commit them to memory? And they're in a language we can understand! We are truly inexcusable.

Rhetorical? yes, I understood this from the start. But if the implication of the question here is that the answer would be a very low number (even if rhetorical), as the tone seems to suggest, I just dont see this conclusion as fair to the people who are blessed with prayer books that have been translated into their native tongue, and who *do* try their best to pray from them as often as possible. I know many who fall into this category. I guess that's all I was saying.

Quote
In any case, the point is again sorely missed: that we often neglect those things given to us by God's goodness, and those who have far less run with their treasure. May God help us!

Thank you for making your point clear. Forgive me for having misconstrued your earlier posts - this is an important reminder, for which I am grateful.

In Christ,
Donna Mary

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« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2005, 08:48:22 AM »

Hey, man, I get you...

Why, thank you, kind sir. That was exactly what I meant. Smiley

--Julio
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« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2005, 11:37:04 PM »

We have been trying to find, link and share as much Orthodox information and as many Divine Services as possible in Spanish on our new website at:

www.stgeorgepantry.org

If you or any others know of other sites or articles we can add or link, we'd be very, very grateful if you could share this with us - to share with others!

(We are in the Diocese of the South, under Archbishop DMITRI, and my husband is Hispanic, from the Dominican Republic - Spanish was his first language.)  He would be able to share this in Spanish, but sadly, not I!
He is off helping with IOCC hurricane relief efforts in Alabama and Miss. this week...
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« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2005, 05:18:29 PM »

I can vouch for Greek regard for the expression of piety by fervent Russians during visits by Greek hierarchies to Russia.

What I find odd is that one is not a saint unless commemorated by the Phanar? We do not have a Papacy or a canonisation process as do Roman Catholics. Saint John Maximovitch is venerated across the world including the Greek speaking world, and I have found his Icon in churches in Greece.

As to the Patriarchate's history. The City has suffered many a time with torments up to the present day. Our history tells that there have been worthy and courageous Patriarchs and others of unhappy memory, as indeed there been in every see since the earliest of times. To libell is too tell an untruth. To point the unhappy elements within the history of the see of Constantinople or any other is not libell, albeit uncomfortable. And if saints are not always perfect neither are bishops, no matter how exalted their see.
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« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2005, 06:04:05 PM »

I can vouch for Greek regard for the expression of piety by fervent Russians during visits by Greek hierarchies to Russia.

What I find odd is that one is not a saint unless commemorated by the Phanar? We do not have a Papacy or a canonisation process as do Roman Catholics. Saint John Maximovitch is venerated across the world including the Greek speaking world, and I have found his Icon in churches in Greece.

As to the Patriarchate's history. The City has suffered many a time with torments up to the present day. Our history tells that there have been worthy and courageous Patriarchs and others of unhappy memory, as indeed there been in every see since the earliest of times. To libell is too tell an untruth. To point the unhappy elements within the history of the see of Constantinople or any other is not libell, albeit uncomfortable. And if saints are not always perfect neither are bishops, no matter how exalted their see.

No, being commemorated by the Phanar is irrelevant.  They can commemorate who they want, just as any local Church can.  GiC just chooses to not recognize anyone that is not in the Ecumenical Patriarchate's Synaxarion.
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« Reply #35 on: July 19, 2010, 05:27:33 PM »

Few know how to pity Constantinople, it seems. What a shame.
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« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2011, 02:08:44 AM »

The fact that he is listed on a website of an Archdiocese of the Oecumenical Patriarchate does not mean that he has been commemorated by the Phanar, there's a good chance the Phanar doesn't even know about this. With that said, if he is commemorated by the Phanar, has been entered into their Synaxarion, or is regarded as a Saint by the Patriarchate then I yield that he is a Saint. But even if he has been regarded as such, his attacks on the Oecumenical Throne are still Libelous and unbecomming of the Episcopal Dignity...but no one is perfect, not even the saints.
was this post before or after Greeki burne himself out with the Pedalion?

Another issue:

I just came across this, which purpots to be a map of the Ecumenical Patriarchate:

If this is true, who has the jurisdiction over the Turkish Republic from the coast to Cilicia (Antioch)?
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« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2011, 02:24:24 AM »

If this is true, who has the jurisdiction over the Turkish Republic from the coast to Cilicia (Antioch)?

The EP.  Are there any large settlements of EO/OO Orthodox Christians remaining in the Anatolian Plain?  I believe scattered OO communities are the remnants of Christianity in the Anatolian Plains.
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