Author Topic: Being gay and Christianity.  (Read 67661 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,204
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #90 on: June 28, 2015, 03:37:23 PM »
I've developed more same-sex attractions over the years so it's not entirely unconceivable. I view sexual orientation as a fluid instead of strict, well-defined categories so it's not that dramatic.

I don't disagree.  There's still more we need to research of course, and there is a spectrum, and some are less fluid than others.  This we need to keep in mind.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,771
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #91 on: June 28, 2015, 03:38:39 PM »
I've developed more same-sex attractions over the years so it's not entirely unconceivable. I view sexual orientation as a fluid instead of strict, well-defined categories so it's not that dramatic.

Fair enough. I think for those with more exclusive sexual tastes, it's probably a lot less fluid, but that does not necessarily mean that for such people that sex with a member of the opposite gender is entirely impossible.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline TheMathematician

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,007
  • Formerly known as Montalo
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: ACROD
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #92 on: June 28, 2015, 03:40:14 PM »
I've developed more same-sex attractions over the years so it's not entirely unconceivable. I view sexual orientation as a fluid instead of strict, well-defined categories so it's not that dramatic.

Fair enough. I think for those with more exclusive sexual tastes, it's probably a lot less fluid, but that does not necessarily mean that for such people that sex with a member of the opposite gender is entirely impossible.

I've heard stories about people I know who have had sex with women and found out they were gay by this experience.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,771
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #93 on: June 28, 2015, 03:49:05 PM »
I've developed more same-sex attractions over the years so it's not entirely unconceivable. I view sexual orientation as a fluid instead of strict, well-defined categories so it's not that dramatic.

Fair enough. I think for those with more exclusive sexual tastes, it's probably a lot less fluid, but that does not necessarily mean that for such people that sex with a member of the opposite gender is entirely impossible.

I've heard stories about people I know who have had sex with women and found out they were gay by this experience.


eeeeeeeeee. I feel bad for the women.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 03:49:15 PM by Papist »
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline rakovsky

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,471
  • St. Mstislav I
    • The Old Testament Prophecies of the Messiah's Resurrection and Orthodox Christianity's roots in the Holy Land
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #94 on: June 28, 2015, 04:44:35 PM »
I've developed more same-sex attractions over the years so it's not entirely unconceivable. I view sexual orientation as a fluid instead of strict, well-defined categories so it's not that dramatic.

Fair enough. I think for those with more exclusive sexual tastes, it's probably a lot less fluid, but that does not necessarily mean that for such people that sex with a member of the opposite gender is entirely impossible.

I've heard stories about people I know who have had sex with women and found out they were gay by this experience.
If I ever look at explicit pics on the internet, I never look for male-male ones, and I typically get grossed out a bit by them. So doesn't that mean I am straight?
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Alpo

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,878
  • Why am I still here?
  • Faith: Mongol-Finnic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Priestly Society of St. John Ireland
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #95 on: June 28, 2015, 04:56:49 PM »
You are asking from OC.net whether you are straight?

I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,204
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #96 on: June 28, 2015, 04:57:23 PM »
You are asking from OC.net whether you are straight?



I was thinking this same Jackie Chan picture when I read that!
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,771
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #97 on: June 28, 2015, 05:09:06 PM »
I've developed more same-sex attractions over the years so it's not entirely unconceivable. I view sexual orientation as a fluid instead of strict, well-defined categories so it's not that dramatic.

Fair enough. I think for those with more exclusive sexual tastes, it's probably a lot less fluid, but that does not necessarily mean that for such people that sex with a member of the opposite gender is entirely impossible.

I've heard stories about people I know who have had sex with women and found out they were gay by this experience.
If I ever look at explicit pics on the internet, I never look for male-male ones, and I typically get grossed out a bit by them. So doesn't that mean I am straight?
DUDE!!!!!!!!! You are talking about looking at porn!!!!  ???
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Cyrillic

  • Laser Basileus.
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,710
  • St. Theodoret of Cyrrhus, pray for us!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #98 on: June 28, 2015, 05:12:03 PM »
I've developed more same-sex attractions over the years so it's not entirely unconceivable. I view sexual orientation as a fluid instead of strict, well-defined categories so it's not that dramatic.

Fair enough. I think for those with more exclusive sexual tastes, it's probably a lot less fluid, but that does not necessarily mean that for such people that sex with a member of the opposite gender is entirely impossible.

I've heard stories about people I know who have had sex with women and found out they were gay by this experience.
If I ever look at explicit pics on the internet, I never look for male-male ones, and I typically get grossed out a bit by them. So doesn't that mean I am straight?
DUDE!!!!!!!!! You are talking about looking at porn!!!!  ???

There's been an avalanche of TMI as of late.

Offline Alpo

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,878
  • Why am I still here?
  • Faith: Mongol-Finnic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Priestly Society of St. John Ireland
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #99 on: June 28, 2015, 05:14:12 PM »
I would beware if I was rakovsky. Because deep down there in the darkest corners of your mind there just might be a tiny little piece of you who is

I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Cyrillic

  • Laser Basileus.
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,710
  • St. Theodoret of Cyrrhus, pray for us!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #100 on: June 28, 2015, 05:15:21 PM »
If I ever look at explicit pics on the internet, I never look for male-male ones, and I typically get grossed out a bit by them. So doesn't that mean I am straight?

Not good enough.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,771
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #101 on: June 28, 2015, 05:16:16 PM »
I've developed more same-sex attractions over the years so it's not entirely unconceivable. I view sexual orientation as a fluid instead of strict, well-defined categories so it's not that dramatic.

Fair enough. I think for those with more exclusive sexual tastes, it's probably a lot less fluid, but that does not necessarily mean that for such people that sex with a member of the opposite gender is entirely impossible.

I've heard stories about people I know who have had sex with women and found out they were gay by this experience.
If I ever look at explicit pics on the internet, I never look for male-male ones, and I typically get grossed out a bit by them. So doesn't that mean I am straight?
DUDE!!!!!!!!! You are talking about looking at porn!!!!  ???

There's been an avalanche of TMI as of late.

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,771
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #102 on: June 28, 2015, 05:16:59 PM »
If I ever look at explicit pics on the internet, I never look for male-male ones, and I typically get grossed out a bit by them. So doesn't that mean I am straight?

Not good enough.

True, you actually have to vomit, convulse, and pass out if you are totally straight.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Luke

  • Formerly Gamliel
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,654
  • Ευλογημένη Σαρακοστή
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Metropolis of San Francisco
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #103 on: June 28, 2015, 05:17:16 PM »


That is a good saying.  Thanks for posting it.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 05:17:44 PM by Gamliel »

Offline rakovsky

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,471
  • St. Mstislav I
    • The Old Testament Prophecies of the Messiah's Resurrection and Orthodox Christianity's roots in the Holy Land
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #104 on: June 28, 2015, 05:19:54 PM »
I've developed more same-sex attractions over the years so it's not entirely unconceivable. I view sexual orientation as a fluid instead of strict, well-defined categories so it's not that dramatic.

Fair enough. I think for those with more exclusive sexual tastes, it's probably a lot less fluid, but that does not necessarily mean that for such people that sex with a member of the opposite gender is entirely impossible.

I've heard stories about people I know who have had sex with women and found out they were gay by this experience.
If I ever look at explicit pics on the internet, I never look for male-male ones, and I typically get grossed out a bit by them. So doesn't that mean I am straight?
DUDE!!!!!!!!! You are talking about looking at porn!!!!  ???

The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Cyrillic

  • Laser Basileus.
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,710
  • St. Theodoret of Cyrrhus, pray for us!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #105 on: June 28, 2015, 05:20:58 PM »
If I ever look at explicit pics on the internet, I never look for male-male ones, and I typically get grossed out a bit by them. So doesn't that mean I am straight?

Not good enough.

True, you actually have to vomit, convulse, and pass out if you are totally straight.

At the very least.

Don't forget that the computer screen has to be ceremonially burned whilst singing Basileu Ouranie (Veni Creator Spiritus being allowed for the pesky Latins).
« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 05:22:49 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline Alpo

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,878
  • Why am I still here?
  • Faith: Mongol-Finnic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Priestly Society of St. John Ireland
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #106 on: June 28, 2015, 05:26:15 PM »
You could also have "100% straight" tattooed to your face so that everybody is aware of this important piece of information about you.
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,771
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #107 on: June 28, 2015, 05:32:05 PM »
You could also have "100% straight" tattooed to your face so that everybody is aware of this important piece of information about you.

Well since about 97% of people are straight, most will just assume that the people they encounter are straight, unless they are given a good reason to think otherwise. I guess the tattoo would be superfluous, then. Or, you could just vomit, start convulsing, and pass out every time you see a gay person.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline scamandrius

  • A man of many, many turns
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,377
  • Faith: Greek Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: DOWAMA of AANA
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #108 on: June 28, 2015, 05:34:51 PM »
If I ever look at explicit pics on the internet, I never look for male-male ones, and I typically get grossed out a bit by them. So doesn't that mean I am straight?

Not good enough.

True, you actually have to vomit, convulse, and pass out if you are totally straight.

At the very least.

Don't forget that the computer screen has to be ceremonially burned whilst singing Basileu Ouranie (Veni Creator Spiritus being allowed for the pesky Latins).

I think Dies Irae would be more appropriate.
Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,771
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #109 on: June 28, 2015, 05:37:42 PM »
If I ever look at explicit pics on the internet, I never look for male-male ones, and I typically get grossed out a bit by them. So doesn't that mean I am straight?

Not good enough.

True, you actually have to vomit, convulse, and pass out if you are totally straight.

At the very least.

Don't forget that the computer screen has to be ceremonially burned whilst singing Basileu Ouranie (Veni Creator Spiritus being allowed for the pesky Latins).

I think Dies Irae would be more appropriate.
^ This
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline TheMathematician

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,007
  • Formerly known as Montalo
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: ACROD
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #110 on: June 28, 2015, 06:31:58 PM »
I've developed more same-sex attractions over the years so it's not entirely unconceivable. I view sexual orientation as a fluid instead of strict, well-defined categories so it's not that dramatic.

Fair enough. I think for those with more exclusive sexual tastes, it's probably a lot less fluid, but that does not necessarily mean that for such people that sex with a member of the opposite gender is entirely impossible.

I've heard stories about people I know who have had sex with women and found out they were gay by this experience.
If I ever look at explicit pics on the internet, I never look for male-male ones, and I typically get grossed out a bit by them. So doesn't that mean I am straight?
DUDE!!!!!!!!! You are talking about looking at porn!!!!  ???

There's been an avalanche of TMI as of late.


in which case, let us continue down our current path.

Offline Minnesotan

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,329
  • Milo Thatch is the ONLY Milo for me. #FreeAtlantis
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #111 on: June 28, 2015, 07:07:38 PM »
I've developed more same-sex attractions over the years so it's not entirely unconceivable. I view sexual orientation as a fluid instead of strict, well-defined categories so it's not that dramatic.

Fair enough. I think for those with more exclusive sexual tastes, it's probably a lot less fluid, but that does not necessarily mean that for such people that sex with a member of the opposite gender is entirely impossible.

I've heard stories about people I know who have had sex with women and found out they were gay by this experience.

That doesn't make sense. It could just as easily mean that you're asexual, or sexophobic, or just find sex yucky in general regardless of who it's with.
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline podkarpatska

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,732
  • Pokrov
    • ACROD (home)
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #112 on: June 28, 2015, 07:45:25 PM »
Throughout the entire gay/not gay discussion - not just on this thread, but in general, one would get the impression that the number of LGBT folks is a "significant" percentage of the general population. Of course, just what 'significant' means is rather subjective, but I recall that some asserting ten percent as a generally bandied about percentage, yet Papist used the number '97%" of the population  as  being 'straight.' Papist's percentage seems in line with recent government statistics from 2014. "Less than 3 percent of the U.S. population identify themselves as gay, lesbian or bisexual, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported Tuesday in the first large-scale government survey measuring Americans’ sexual orientation."  http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/health-survey-gives-government-its-first-large-scale-data-on-gay-bisexual-population/2014/07/14/2db9f4b0-092f-11e4-bbf1-cc51275e7f8f_story.html

I ask this because for some Christians and many non-religious people, the focus and attention on these issues reallys seems disproportional to the actual societal impact. And again, I am not speaking of passing adolescent or post adolescent same sex attractions, but rather, of a life long commitment to the same sex over that of the opposite. Perhaps this is not relevant to the discussion at hand, but again between the histrionic reaction from some Christian quarters to the 'laissez faire' reaction of perhaps a majority of citizens here it it hard to figure out why all of the noise? Sorry for rambling, but one more thing....isn't there a fundamental difference between admiring a handsome or attractive person of either gender and being sexually attracted to that same person. It seems that many have confused the two. Now, back to our regularly scheduled bickering.

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #113 on: June 28, 2015, 10:39:26 PM »
Well, I thought this thread started well. And then oc.net happened.  :-\
God bless!

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,630
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #114 on: June 28, 2015, 10:42:37 PM »
Well, I thought this thread started well. And then oc.net happened.  :-\

You're surprised?  :P
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #115 on: June 28, 2015, 10:43:02 PM »
Well, I thought this thread started well. And then oc.net happened.  :-\

You're surprised?  :P
No.
God bless!

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,204
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #116 on: June 28, 2015, 11:05:25 PM »
Throughout the entire gay/not gay discussion - not just on this thread, but in general, one would get the impression that the number of LGBT folks is a "significant" percentage of the general population. Of course, just what 'significant' means is rather subjective, but I recall that some asserting ten percent as a generally bandied about percentage, yet Papist used the number '97%" of the population  as  being 'straight.' Papist's percentage seems in line with recent government statistics from 2014. "Less than 3 percent of the U.S. population identify themselves as gay, lesbian or bisexual, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported Tuesday in the first large-scale government survey measuring Americans’ sexual orientation."  http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/health-survey-gives-government-its-first-large-scale-data-on-gay-bisexual-population/2014/07/14/2db9f4b0-092f-11e4-bbf1-cc51275e7f8f_story.html

I ask this because for some Christians and many non-religious people, the focus and attention on these issues reallys seems disproportional to the actual societal impact. And again, I am not speaking of passing adolescent or post adolescent same sex attractions, but rather, of a life long commitment to the same sex over that of the opposite. Perhaps this is not relevant to the discussion at hand, but again between the histrionic reaction from some Christian quarters to the 'laissez faire' reaction of perhaps a majority of citizens here it it hard to figure out why all of the noise? Sorry for rambling, but one more thing....isn't there a fundamental difference between admiring a handsome or attractive person of either gender and being sexually attracted to that same person. It seems that many have confused the two. Now, back to our regularly scheduled bickering.

Let's suppose that 3% is accurate.  It still had a societal impact on the views of ordinary people in the West.  What is happening around the world is that more countries have been giving marriage "rights" for LBGT, and this is not without the other 47+ % who are siding with the 3% that they should.  And among this growing majority, a good number of them is changing their moral perception of what is acceptable, and this is also affecting the next generation as well.  Our Orthodox church's next generation will be affected greatly.  So, it does not matter even if it's 0.05% of the population.  A good number of people now are questioning if this is okay, and those of us who are sticking with the traditional view are wondering how we can approach the situation and how we can disassociate ourselves from those who engage in lynching LGBT peoples.

We cannot ignore this.  This needs to be discussed heavily and thoroughly now.  We need to have a good Orthodox theological exposition on human sexuality, gender issues, and orientation, all of which in my opinion are connected and seems to point to the same theological answer, an evaluation of what it means for man to be created in the image of God and what it means for God to be in relation with humanity and Christ with the Church.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline FinnJames

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,084
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of Finland
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #117 on: June 29, 2015, 08:41:19 AM »
... Our Orthodox church's next generation will be affected greatly.  So, it does not matter even if it's 0.05% of the population.  A good number of people now are questioning if this is okay, and those of us who are sticking with the traditional view are wondering how we can approach the situation and how we can disassociate ourselves from those who engage in lynching LGBT peoples.

We cannot ignore this.  This needs to be discussed heavily and thoroughly now.  We need to have a good Orthodox theological exposition on human sexuality, gender issues, and orientation, all of which in my opinion are connected and seems to point to the same theological answer, an evaluation of what it means for man to be created in the image of God and what it means for God to be in relation with humanity and Christ with the Church.

I'll second that, though I wonder if those of us on the internet are the right people to be having the discussion. Much depends not only on what it means for man to be created in the image of God and what it means for God to be in relation to humanity and Christ with the Church, but also on what exactly the biblical writers and Church Fathers had in mind when they wrote about what today's translators are glossing as homosexual behaviour.

In any event, I hope there will come a time when people with homosexual inclinations feel welcome to make an ascetic struggle (there's a good word for this in Finnish, but this is as close as I can come to it in English) within the Orthodox Church worldwide and be accepted whether they chose to remain celibate single laypeople, settle down with a life partner of the same sex, marry someone of the opposite sex, or make their struggle as a monk/nun.

Offline scamandrius

  • A man of many, many turns
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,377
  • Faith: Greek Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: DOWAMA of AANA
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #118 on: June 29, 2015, 09:14:48 AM »


In any event, I hope there will come a time when people with homosexual inclinations feel welcome to make an ascetic struggle (there's a good word for this in Finnish, but this is as close as I can come to it in English) within the Orthodox Church worldwide and be accepted whether they chose to remain celibate single laypeople, settle down with a life partner of the same sex, marry someone of the opposite sex, or make their struggle as a monk/nun.

I have met several monks who were making an ascetic struggle who were also former homosexuals.  They were most welcome. 
Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

Offline Fabio Leite

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,790
    • Vida Ortodoxa
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #119 on: June 29, 2015, 09:38:05 AM »
People have to decide: if sexuality can be "fluid" as they say, so you can have ex-gays. The paradox of the gay movement is that they accept that a father who had been straight all his life may one day find out he wants to have sex with other men and that he is actually gay, but they can't accept the opposite, that someone who had gay feelings may one day not accept them any longer and even cease to have them. For the former they'd say he had been gay or bi all along, but the latter is just a "traitor" of the movement.

People speak here of cure therapies not working. I've read of some that did work.  One would have to compare with the success of therapies to deal with anxiety, anger, smoking, alcoholism and prove that the indicators of relapse are significantly smaller. I think they are not as succesful as they could be because their assumption that it is a psychological problem is wrong. It's a spiritual problem.

Even that, since we have problems like pathological depression (and some say alcoholism as well) that are never entirely healed, just mitigated, one would have to prove that homosexual feelings or feeling hungry for bricks is natural just because the feeling is true. And no "progress" in the LGBT agenda has ever been made with that kind of proof, just with aggressive militant activism, "will to power".
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline podkarpatska

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,732
  • Pokrov
    • ACROD (home)
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #120 on: June 29, 2015, 10:26:36 AM »
Throughout the entire gay/not gay discussion - not just on this thread, but in general, one would get the impression that the number of LGBT folks is a "significant" percentage of the general population. Of course, just what 'significant' means is rather subjective, but I recall that some asserting ten percent as a generally bandied about percentage, yet Papist used the number '97%" of the population  as  being 'straight.' Papist's percentage seems in line with recent government statistics from 2014. "Less than 3 percent of the U.S. population identify themselves as gay, lesbian or bisexual, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported Tuesday in the first large-scale government survey measuring Americans’ sexual orientation."  http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/health-survey-gives-government-its-first-large-scale-data-on-gay-bisexual-population/2014/07/14/2db9f4b0-092f-11e4-bbf1-cc51275e7f8f_story.html

I ask this because for some Christians and many non-religious people, the focus and attention on these issues reallys seems disproportional to the actual societal impact. And again, I am not speaking of passing adolescent or post adolescent same sex attractions, but rather, of a life long commitment to the same sex over that of the opposite. Perhaps this is not relevant to the discussion at hand, but again between the histrionic reaction from some Christian quarters to the 'laissez faire' reaction of perhaps a majority of citizens here it it hard to figure out why all of the noise? Sorry for rambling, but one more thing....isn't there a fundamental difference between admiring a handsome or attractive person of either gender and being sexually attracted to that same person. It seems that many have confused the two. Now, back to our regularly scheduled bickering.

Let's suppose that 3% is accurate.  It still had a societal impact on the views of ordinary people in the West.  What is happening around the world is that more countries have been giving marriage "rights" for LBGT, and this is not without the other 47+ % who are siding with the 3% that they should.  And among this growing majority, a good number of them is changing their moral perception of what is acceptable, and this is also affecting the next generation as well.  Our Orthodox church's next generation will be affected greatly.  So, it does not matter even if it's 0.05% of the population.  A good number of people now are questioning if this is okay, and those of us who are sticking with the traditional view are wondering how we can approach the situation and how we can disassociate ourselves from those who engage in lynching LGBT peoples.

We cannot ignore this.  This needs to be discussed heavily and thoroughly now.  We need to have a good Orthodox theological exposition on human sexuality, gender issues, and orientation, all of which in my opinion are connected and seems to point to the same theological answer, an evaluation of what it means for man to be created in the image of God and what it means for God to be in relation with humanity and Christ with the Church.

I'm not suggesting that we ignore this issue based on the percentages.The percentage of axe murderers is certainly miniscule, but we don't ignore the moral consequences of that act or ignore its perpetrators. What  I am suggesting is that this particular issue - which is part of the long slide to total moral relativism - is receiving a reaction from some quarters regarding the possibility of 'exile in our own land', secession of a state or states, the end is coming, persecution and jailing etc... that is so full of outrage that we may lose sight of the forest for the trees. Such reactions play into the hands of those who hate God and hate the Church.  By responding to stupid rhetoric from the extremes of the LGBT community with equally stupid rhetoric is not the beginning of what one might regard as "a good Orthodox theological exposition on human sexuality, gender issues, and orientation, all of which in my opinion are connected and seems to point to the same theological answer, an evaluation of what it means for man to be created in the image of God and what it means for God to be in relation with humanity and Christ with the Church." Nothing but sorrow comes from a theology of fear and despair as it leads many to resort to means which are NEVER justified. Frankly, the language being used by SOME Catholic and Orthodox clergy and hierarchs is doing just that in my estimation.

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,204
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #121 on: June 29, 2015, 10:32:04 AM »
I don't disagree. The rhetoric also needs to change.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Velsigne

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,043
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #122 on: June 29, 2015, 10:32:55 AM »
Throughout the entire gay/not gay discussion - not just on this thread, but in general, one would get the impression that the number of LGBT folks is a "significant" percentage of the general population. Of course, just what 'significant' means is rather subjective, but I recall that some asserting ten percent as a generally bandied about percentage, yet Papist used the number '97%" of the population  as  being 'straight.' Papist's percentage seems in line with recent government statistics from 2014. "Less than 3 percent of the U.S. population identify themselves as gay, lesbian or bisexual, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported Tuesday in the first large-scale government survey measuring Americans’ sexual orientation."  http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/health-survey-gives-government-its-first-large-scale-data-on-gay-bisexual-population/2014/07/14/2db9f4b0-092f-11e4-bbf1-cc51275e7f8f_story.html

I ask this because for some Christians and many non-religious people, the focus and attention on these issues reallys seems disproportional to the actual societal impact. And again, I am not speaking of passing adolescent or post adolescent same sex attractions, but rather, of a life long commitment to the same sex over that of the opposite. Perhaps this is not relevant to the discussion at hand, but again between the histrionic reaction from some Christian quarters to the 'laissez faire' reaction of perhaps a majority of citizens here it it hard to figure out why all of the noise? Sorry for rambling, but one more thing....isn't there a fundamental difference between admiring a handsome or attractive person of either gender and being sexually attracted to that same person. It seems that many have confused the two. Now, back to our regularly scheduled bickering.

Let's suppose that 3% is accurate.  It still had a societal impact on the views of ordinary people in the West.  What is happening around the world is that more countries have been giving marriage "rights" for LBGT, and this is not without the other 47+ % who are siding with the 3% that they should.  And among this growing majority, a good number of them is changing their moral perception of what is acceptable, and this is also affecting the next generation as well.  Our Orthodox church's next generation will be affected greatly.  So, it does not matter even if it's 0.05% of the population.  A good number of people now are questioning if this is okay, and those of us who are sticking with the traditional view are wondering how we can approach the situation and how we can disassociate ourselves from those who engage in lynching LGBT peoples.

We cannot ignore this.  This needs to be discussed heavily and thoroughly now.  We need to have a good Orthodox theological exposition on human sexuality, gender issues, and orientation, all of which in my opinion are connected and seems to point to the same theological answer, an evaluation of what it means for man to be created in the image of God and what it means for God to be in relation with humanity and Christ with the Church.

They also need some lessons from Russia on sifting through propaganda.  At least over there people understand that pretty much everything in media is propaganda. 

An entire culture of cultural militancy has developed in the United States.  The underpinnings are intolerance and hatred, often in the guise of tolerance and acceptance.

The LGBT-Q culture is not happy with just quietly living their lives, they have to be the thought police and make sure that everyone expresses complete and utter approval for their sexual choices.

They equate happiness and freedom in life with the use of their genitalia.  Everything else is kicked to the curb. 

They likely will start forcing the agenda on churches next. 

I used to be a 'live and let live' type person, but at this point I find the gay culture to be completely annoying and even threatening.  Yes, even at a professional job they are out lobbying and forcing people's hands to unequivocally and publicly approve of their sexual choices.  They have made their personal sexual choices my business, which I never wanted it to be. 

In my experience, the worst sexual harassment I've experienced on the job was from lesbians.   Of course the worst assaults were from hetero males.  All they've done is add another layer of harassment to the steaming pile of cultural excrement on our plates.  Now I get to share the bathroom with any number of men who engage in only God knows how many behaviors and if I don't like it I'm probably breaking a law.

One begins to wonder if underneath all that craving for approval is a deep seated discomfort with themselves and their choices. 

What used to be called 'sodomites' was re-branded as 'homosexual' now re-branded again and again. 

Then they re-branded the movement as the new 'civil rights' issue as if it carried the weight of genuine civil rights for black people who were horribly mistreated on a wide scale due only to skin color, which obviously can't be hidden or private. 

The NAMBLA men were marginalized by the gay movement to keep children out of it, but now we see high school kids being set up to be sexually used by adults. 

Now we have legislation that affirms that homosexual expression is one of the most important facets of liberty and pursuit of  happiness when in reality it's a behavior of a small subset of the population.  So which marginalized deviant group is up next for complete acceptance of their deviancy? 

Younger generations will grow up never experiencing a time when people weren't constantly bombarded in the media with gay sex.  The media has normalized deviant behavior through conditioning an entire generation.   It will be a small leap to other behaviors. 
A nation is not conquered until the hearts of its women are on the ground.

Then it is done, no matter how brave its warriors nor how strong their weapons -- Cheyenne proverb

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,204
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #123 on: June 29, 2015, 10:41:07 AM »
Shouldn't we have been disgusted with how the family was crumbling to begin with? Shouldn't we be annoyed with how we treated marriage in general, or how some areas did in fact persecute lgbt people?  This is what conditioned media, not "enforcement" and "lobbying", but our failures to act as lights of the world and salts of the earth.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline FatherGiryus

  • Don't Ask
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,195
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #124 on: June 29, 2015, 10:55:12 AM »
Yes, and the sad thing is that most Orthodox 'commentators' and 'experts' (clerical and non-clerical alike) aren't addressing the true teachings of the Church, because they themselves have largely bought into the modern narrative which has led to all of this.  They themselves speak violently and hatefully, and don't even manifest the teachings of the Church.  Anyone who 'represents' the Church and talks about 'attractions' (same-sex or otherwise) is 180 degrees off course.

Shouldn't we have been disgusted with how the family was crumbling to begin with? Shouldn't we be annoyed with how we treated marriage in general, or how some areas did in fact persecute lgbt people?  This is what conditioned media, not "enforcement" and "lobbying", but our failures to act as lights of the world and salts of the earth.
You can't find wisdom in the mirror.

Offline Alpo

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,878
  • Why am I still here?
  • Faith: Mongol-Finnic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Priestly Society of St. John Ireland
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #125 on: June 29, 2015, 11:52:27 AM »
Anyone who 'represents' the Church and talks about 'attractions' (same-sex or otherwise) is 180 degrees off course.

Is there a bettet term for it?
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline augustin717

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,842
  • Faith: Higher Criticism
  • Jurisdiction: Dutch
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #126 on: June 29, 2015, 12:13:06 PM »
Prob passions yawn
"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

Offline FatherGiryus

  • Don't Ask
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,195
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #127 on: June 29, 2015, 12:35:37 PM »
Prob passions yawn

Nope.  One point deducted for guessing.

Wanna try again?   :-*
You can't find wisdom in the mirror.

Offline Marc1152

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 14,838
  • Probiotic .. Antibiotic
  • Jurisdiction: Rocor
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #128 on: June 29, 2015, 12:39:00 PM »
Yes, and the sad thing is that most Orthodox 'commentators' and 'experts' (clerical and non-clerical alike) aren't addressing the true teachings of the Church, because they themselves have largely bought into the modern narrative which has led to all of this.  They themselves speak violently and hatefully, and don't even manifest the teachings of the Church.  Anyone who 'represents' the Church and talks about 'attractions' (same-sex or otherwise) is 180 degrees off course.

Shouldn't we have been disgusted with how the family was crumbling to begin with? Shouldn't we be annoyed with how we treated marriage in general, or how some areas did in fact persecute lgbt people?  This is what conditioned media, not "enforcement" and "lobbying", but our failures to act as lights of the world and salts of the earth.

I agree with this..Too often people have combined common bigotry with Church teachings or in place of Church teachings..

If you are asking a secular question about fairness, then Americans tend to side with an under dog and have a live and let live attitude. This is especially true of a group like homosexuals who have endured violence and hatred.

On the other hand, if you are asking a question about the practice of Christianity "How do I inherit eternal life" then homosexuality ( as well as other sexual interests) are strongly prohibited..No one said this would be easy.

You will find the same advice in other religions. American Buddhists are often shocked when they discover many Japanese head temples would not ordain a practicing homosexual. This form of sexuality seems to be discouraged in order to make spiritual progress by a whole range of  religious traditions. That tells me there is something to it when disparate, religiously sober traditions, so often say this is bad for you.   

When homosexuals are told "This is bad for you" they hear "You are bad"..which once again is a confusion between cultural bigotry and sound spiritual advice.

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Alpo

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,878
  • Why am I still here?
  • Faith: Mongol-Finnic Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Priestly Society of St. John Ireland
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #129 on: June 29, 2015, 12:47:53 PM »
^I would avoid talking about "homosexuals" as a single-minded, coherent group. "They" are individuals and confusing "that's bad for you" with "you're bad" seems to be common with all too many heterosexuals also.
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Fabio Leite

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,790
    • Vida Ortodoxa
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #130 on: June 29, 2015, 12:48:00 PM »
The problem is that when spiritual traditions explain *why* homossexuality is bad for those who practice it, people simply say "I'm not convinced" and go on.

Sort of a doctor explaining why smoking is bad and when the person does not understand the biochemistry in it they say "I'm not convinced" and go on smoking.
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline scamandrius

  • A man of many, many turns
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,377
  • Faith: Greek Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: DOWAMA of AANA
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #131 on: June 29, 2015, 01:24:18 PM »

When homosexuals are told "This is bad for you" they hear "You are bad"..which once again is a confusion between cultural bigotry and sound spiritual advice.

The problem is their hearing and their refusal to hear anything beyond what they wish.
Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

Offline DeniseDenise

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,799
  • This place holds to nothing....
  • Faith: Does it matter?
  • Jurisdiction: Unverifiable, so irrelevant
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #132 on: June 29, 2015, 01:25:20 PM »

When homosexuals are told "This is bad for you" they hear "You are bad"..which once again is a confusion between cultural bigotry and sound spiritual advice.

The problem is their hearing and their refusal to hear anything beyond what they wish.


a trait exclusive to them, I am sure.
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Raylight

  • Guest
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #133 on: June 29, 2015, 01:39:01 PM »
^I would avoid talking about "homosexuals" as a single-minded, coherent group. "They" are individuals and confusing "that's bad for you" with "you're bad" seems to be common with all too many heterosexuals also.

Thank you for pointing that out. Not all gays think the same way.

Offline scamandrius

  • A man of many, many turns
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,377
  • Faith: Greek Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: DOWAMA of AANA
Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Reply #134 on: June 29, 2015, 01:41:00 PM »

When homosexuals are told "This is bad for you" they hear "You are bad"..which once again is a confusion between cultural bigotry and sound spiritual advice.

The problem is their hearing and their refusal to hear anything beyond what they wish.



a trait exclusive to them, I am sure.

Of course not, but we are talking here about a *specific* context.
Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.