Author Topic: the Church is the new Israel.  (Read 1120 times)

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Raylight

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the Church is the new Israel.
« on: June 23, 2015, 01:28:55 PM »

Where in the Old Testament does it say that one time Israel will be replaced with another group, that Israel as known at that time will change to become a whole different group ? Where does it say that the gentiles will become part of God's people ?

Offline Papist

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Re: the Church is the new Israel.
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2015, 01:35:09 PM »
Who is saying that the Church is a "different group." The Apostles were all Jewish, and the gentiles were grafted onto that trunk.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Raylight

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Re: the Church is the new Israel.
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2015, 01:40:52 PM »
Who is saying that the Church is a "different group." The Apostles were all Jewish, and the gentiles were grafted onto that trunk.

Of course the church is a different group. The Church doesn't keep the Sabbath, it allows eating any food, the church allows the bow down to icons and statues....etc. This is quite different than what Israel was supposed to be in the Old Testament.

Offline genesisone

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Re: the Church is the new Israel.
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2015, 01:48:45 PM »
Nowhere in the Old or New Testaments will you find the expression "new Israel". You will, however, find expressions such as "Israel of God" and "children of the promise". The Church is not a replacement, but a fulfillment.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: the Church is the new Israel.
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2015, 01:50:15 PM »
Daniel 2:24-45
Isaiah 42:5-9
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 01:53:52 PM by TheTrisagion »
God bless!

Raylight

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Re: the Church is the new Israel.
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2015, 02:11:55 PM »
Daniel 2:24-45
Isaiah 42:5-9

Hi :)

The one in Isaiah is believed to mean the people of Israel. It is mentioned several times in the Old Testament that Israel is the chosen one, that Israel is God's servant. That is why I don't accept the claim that Isaiah 53 is about the Messiah. The same with Isaiah 42.

Regarding Daniel. Can you please elaborate more on that please ?

Raylight

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Re: the Church is the new Israel.
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2015, 02:13:37 PM »
Nowhere in the Old or New Testaments will you find the expression "new Israel". You will, however, find expressions such as "Israel of God" and "children of the promise". The Church is not a replacement, but a fulfillment.

Thank you for the clarification.  :)

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: the Church is the new Israel.
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2015, 02:23:27 PM »
Daniel 2:24-45
Isaiah 42:5-9

Hi :)

The one in Isaiah is believed to mean the people of Israel. It is mentioned several times in the Old Testament that Israel is the chosen one, that Israel is God's servant. That is why I don't accept the claim that Isaiah 53 is about the Messiah. The same with Isaiah 42.

Regarding Daniel. Can you please elaborate more on that please ?
Isaiah 42 states that Israel will bring light to the Gentiles. That light is Christ, and the Gentiles have been grafted into Israel.

Daniel prophesies that a kingdom will come that will be greater than all earthly kingdoms. That is the kingdom of heaven. It was cut out of the mountain without human hands, but was fashioned by God Himself and grows and takes over the earth. It is the Church. Judaism does not meet that definition at all.
God bless!

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: the Church is the new Israel.
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2015, 02:30:43 PM »
Also, it was a 'mixed multitude' of people who went out of Egypt (Ex. 12:38), and it was also a mixed multitude who joined the Church at the beginning (Acts 2). The difference between old and new, as far as this topic goes, is mostly one of how widespread and uncommon/common it was.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: the Church is the new Israel.
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2015, 03:12:36 PM »
Daniel 2:24-45
Isaiah 42:5-9

Hi :)

The one in Isaiah is believed to mean the people of Israel. It is mentioned several times in the Old Testament that Israel is the chosen one, that Israel is God's servant. That is why I don't accept the claim that Isaiah 53 is about the Messiah. The same with Isaiah 42.

Regarding Daniel. Can you please elaborate more on that please ?
Isaiah 42 states that Israel will bring light to the Gentiles. That light is Christ, and the Gentiles have been grafted into Israel.

Daniel prophesies that a kingdom will come that will be greater than all earthly kingdoms. That is the kingdom of heaven. It was cut out of the mountain without human hands, but was fashioned by God Himself and grows and takes over the earth. It is the Church. Judaism does not meet that definition at all.

There is also Micah 1:11, that the name of the Lord shall be proclaimed by the Gentiles, and incense from those Gentiles shall be offered to Him.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: the Church is the new Israel.
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2015, 04:45:03 PM »

Where in the Old Testament does it say that one time Israel will be replaced with another group, that Israel as known at that time will change to become a whole different group ? Where does it say that the gentiles will become part of God's people ?
Where does it say in the O.T. that those imposters who occupy Palestine now are the same group that was known as Israel then?
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Raylight

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Re: the Church is the new Israel.
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2015, 05:49:12 PM »

Where in the Old Testament does it say that one time Israel will be replaced with another group, that Israel as known at that time will change to become a whole different group ? Where does it say that the gentiles will become part of God's people ?
Where does it say in the O.T. that those imposters who occupy Palestine now are the same group that was known as Israel then?


There are plenty of biblical verses of God turning the people of Israel back to their land. Bring them from all the corners of the Earth back to their land. Now your church couldn't work that out so came with the doctrine that says all these promises are now apply to the church. I wonder how can Israel fit billions of people!!

You can't answer my question with a question, either you have an answer to the question or you don't.

I wonder if you would still call it "occupation" if by now the scum of the earth who are called the crusaders were in control ? I doubt it. 
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 05:53:18 PM by Raylight »

Raylight

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Re: the Church is the new Israel.
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2015, 05:49:52 PM »
Daniel 2:24-45
Isaiah 42:5-9

Hi :)

The one in Isaiah is believed to mean the people of Israel. It is mentioned several times in the Old Testament that Israel is the chosen one, that Israel is God's servant. That is why I don't accept the claim that Isaiah 53 is about the Messiah. The same with Isaiah 42.

Regarding Daniel. Can you please elaborate more on that please ?
Isaiah 42 states that Israel will bring light to the Gentiles. That light is Christ, and the Gentiles have been grafted into Israel.

Daniel prophesies that a kingdom will come that will be greater than all earthly kingdoms. That is the kingdom of heaven. It was cut out of the mountain without human hands, but was fashioned by God Himself and grows and takes over the earth. It is the Church. Judaism does not meet that definition at all.

There is also Micah 1:11, that the name of the Lord shall be proclaimed by the Gentiles, and incense from those Gentiles shall be offered to Him.

Thank you Mina :)

Offline minasoliman

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Re: the Church is the new Israel.
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2015, 06:37:58 PM »
Thread locked pending review

--Mina
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: the Church is the new Israel.
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2015, 08:50:11 PM »
Charles and Raylight,

I've given you both 10 points for engaging in politics in a public forum.  I will not allow it.  I have in the past warned publicly not to do so many times in the forum.  And just because one does it, does not mean one would reply to do the same thing.  As I mentioned privately if you want to appeal the decision, do so only by PM.

I will unlock this thread.  Stay away from politics.  If you want to discuss a particular aspect about occupation of a land, do so in the politics section of the site.

God bless.

Mina
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 08:50:37 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Raylight

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Re: the Church is the new Israel.
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2015, 02:46:09 AM »
Charles and Raylight,

I've given you both 10 points for engaging in politics in a public forum.  I will not allow it.  I have in the past warned publicly not to do so many times in the forum.  And just because one does it, does not mean one would reply to do the same thing.  As I mentioned privately if you want to appeal the decision, do so only by PM.

I will unlock this thread.  Stay away from politics.  If you want to discuss a particular aspect about occupation of a land, do so in the politics section of the site.

God bless.

Mina



I'm glad you did that. I hope this will end any future talks about the subject.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: the Church is the new Israel.
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2015, 06:20:47 AM »
Israel didn't become a different group.
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Raylight

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Re: the Church is the new Israel.
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2015, 06:21:59 AM »
Israel didn't become a different group.

Than what did it become ?

Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: the Church is the new Israel.
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2015, 03:46:31 PM »
"Than what did it become?"

A light to the nations in Christ the Seed.

I think my comments on this post in this forum might be of some help to you: http://www.answersinrevelation.org/forum.html#/discussion/285/what-is-the-content-of-the-old-covenant

In it we went into Galatian's Seed vs. seeds argument and made some real breakthroughs.

Tony
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 03:47:07 PM by TheLoveOfTheTruth »
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