Author Topic: I'm beginning to think that the Catholics and Orthodox misuse these passages...  (Read 3296 times)

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Offline TheTrisagion

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"What exactly do you think the Church is? How do you define Church?"

All those called out ones in Christ.
"And how do you know who that is?"

Scripture gives plenty of texts that tell us what to look for in someone to know if whether or not they are a true Christian (without actually laying them all out here, and Scripture doesn't matter anyway because I'm not ever going to understand it until I kill my brain and blindly accept man's authority over my God and God given conscience and reasoning abilities). Like the fruit of people like Ignatius and Polycarp shows they were true Christians, but the fruit of men like Augustine and Calvin shows they weren't.
What fruit did St. Augustine have that showed he was not a true Christian? He went from living a very immoral life to a life of purity upon accepting Christianity. That seems to be good fruit to me. St. Ignatius and St. Polycarp both help to the concept of a visible Church. In your mind, that is false doctrine. How are they good fruit but St. Augustine is not?
God bless!

Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Augustine held to such heretical beliefs that I cannot see how he could possibly have lived a life of purity. "As a man thinks so he is."

I never said the Church is invisible. It's visible. A city set on a hill cannot be hid. But that doesn't mean it will be officially recognized by many as such because from the beginning the Way was spoken evil of. And Christ said he had a little flock and that the Way is narrow and few even find it, even though it might be right in front of them. The "Pelagian" beliefs are the most unpopular and hard to accept of all Christian beliefs, and "Pelagians" are the hardest to find. I can't even find one Telugu preacher of true salvation on the internet for my father-in-law to listen to so that he can maybe stop being deceived by his saved in sin, you can sin and not die gospel of sloppy grace. That said the preachers of righteousness are definitely out there and active, and praise God for them.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 12:18:06 PM by TheLoveOfTheTruth »
"TRUTH IS HATE TO THOSE WHO HATE THE TRUTH"

Offline Papist

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Augustine held to such heretical beliefs that I cannot see how he could possibly have lived a life of purity. "As a man thinks so he is."

I never said the Church is invisible. It's visible. But that doesn't mean it will be officially recognized by many as such because from the beginning the Way was spoken evil of. And Christ said he had a little flock and that the Way is narrow and few even find it, even though it might be right in front of them. The "Pelagian" beliefs are the most unpopular and hard to accept of all Christian beliefs, and "Pelagians" are the hardest to find. I can't even find one Telugu preacher of true salvation on the internet for my father-in-law to listen to so that he can maybe stop being deceived by his saved in sin, you can sin and not die gospel of sloppy grace. That said the preachers of righteousness are definitely out there and active, and praise God for them.

Wait, are you saying that you are in favor of Pelagianism?
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Marc1152

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"What exactly do you think the Church is? How do you define Church?"

All those called out ones in Christ.
And how do you know who that is?

And what happened to the physical Church, the one founded on Pentecost and met in Jerusalem, appointed Bishops and established and supported communities, decided on the cannon of scriptures? Did it disband? Where did it go?
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Cyrillic

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Wait, are you saying that you are in favor of Pelagianism?

He is.

since you guys don't believe we have to stop sinning entirely (and that it is possible) to be saved and do every single command of Christ to have eternal life. God could make everyone in the world a Christian, like how he said that he could make the stones sons unto Abraham, but he chose to allow free choice in the matter, which I believe he did so because it was the right thing to do, or else I don't see why he would have done it if there was a better alternative.

Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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"Wait, are you saying that you are in favor of Pelagianism?"

Yeah, for the most part, I would say I am. From what I've read about it anyway. And I think it's a bogus false accusation against Pelagius that he believed we could be saved without the grace of God. I think that the real issue was how grace is to be defined. And Augustine's definition is bull. Augustine never completely ditched Manichaeism when he came into the church. It never completely left his mind and he brought that poison in.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 12:31:22 PM by TheLoveOfTheTruth »
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Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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"And what happened to the physical Church, the one founded on Pentecost and met in Jerusalem, appointed Bishops and established and supported communities, decided on the cannon of scriptures? Did it disband? Where did it go?"

Yes what happened to the Nazarenes? I wonder... Those "Judaizing heretics" got kicked out of Jerusalem along with their deposed overseers and the gentile "church" took over. But they've been around all throughout history it seems.

It seems you don't believe this can happen to the true Church:

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place, it having been prepared from God, that there they might nourish her a thousand two hundred and sixty days.
Rev 12:7 And war occurred in Heaven, Michael and His angels making war against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels made war,
Rev 12:8 but they did not have strength, nor still was place found for them still in Heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent, the one being called the devil, even Satan; the one leading astray the whole inhabited earth, was cast into the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a great voice saying in Heaven, Now has come the salvation and power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ, because the accuser of our brothers is thrown down, the one accusing them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the Word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul even unto death.
Rev 12:12 Because of this, be glad, the heavens and the ones tabernacling in them. Woe to the ones dwelling on the earth, and in the sea, because the devil came down to you having great anger, knowing that he has a little time!
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast out onto the earth, he pursued the woman who bore the male.
Rev 12:14 And two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness, to her place, where she is nourished there a time, and times, and half a time, away from the serpent’s face.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent threw water out of his mouth like a river after the woman, that he might cause her to be swept away by the river.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river which the dragon threw out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was enraged over the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, the ones keeping the commandments of God, and having the testimony of Jesus Christ. (KJ3)
"TRUTH IS HATE TO THOSE WHO HATE THE TRUTH"

Offline Cyrillic

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"And what happened to the physical Church, the one founded on Pentecost and met in Jerusalem, appointed Bishops and established and supported communities, decided on the cannon of scriptures? Did it disband? Where did it go?"

Yes what happened to the Nazarenes?

You never read the book of Acts, did you?

Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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More things happened after the book of Acts though.
"TRUTH IS HATE TO THOSE WHO HATE THE TRUTH"

Offline Cyrillic

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More things happened after the book of Acts though.

You'd have known that judaizing was condemned in the Book of Acts.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 12:43:47 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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"You'd have known that judaizing was condemned in the Book of Acts."

What is the "judaizing" that was condemned in the Book of Acts? Is it the same judaizing that was later called judaizing? I doubt it. Peter said that the judaizers were trying to put a yoke upon the disciples that they nor their fathers were able to bear. Christ defined the yoke of burden as the extra biblical traditions of the elders of the Scribes and the Pharisees but said the Law was an easy yoke and light burden in which one would find rest for their souls in. Why would Peter's view of the yoke of bondage contradict Christ's? Deuteronomy 30:11 says the Law is not to hard to do. In Psalms 19 and 119 David says the Law is perfect and keeping the Lord's precepts brings liberty. James also spoke of the Law as a perfect one of liberty. So do you think maybe it was the Jewish leaders' false interpretations of the Law that were the yoke of bondage, and that it was this that the judaizers were trying to put on people? Check out what this Ethiopian Orthodox said:

"Do you think that this verse is saying that if you are a Gentile, you are only required to do four things in your walk with God? I don’t think any Christian truly believes this! Does this verse really mean that Gentiles can murder, steal, bear false witness, honor not their mother and father, covet their neighbors’ goods, or take the Lord's name in vain? Of course not!!!

The truth is that this Scripture is talking about new, immature, idol worshipping Gentile believers in Jesus Christ who are just turning to God. Paul and the Counsel expected the Gentiles to catch on to the rest of God’s instruction after they get stronger through faith. It is not saying that they shouldn't walk according to God’s laws. The verse in question is communicating that it was not necessary to be totally Torah observant before one could be saved.

My friend, we don’t need to quote scriptures to learn that there are many ethical and ritual laws of the Torah that are irrelevant today. The Jews themselves have omitted certain laws without the requirement of any sort of counsel, like the one you quoted, and that was convened to resolve the dispute around circumcision. But the Ten Commandments that were written by “the fingers of God” on the two tablets of the Ark of the Covenant remain relevant.

Jesus Christ did not come to earth to nullify or make obsolete the Ten Commandments. Rather, He magnified them and made them honorable by illustrating in His daily life how to perfectly keep them to their full spiritual intent. This was true even of the Sabbath Commandment. Christ's custom was to study and teach from the Bible on the Sabbath day. He also performed works of service for others on the Sabbath. Christ realized that devoting the Sabbath day every week to the worship of God is still beneficial to humans.

Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy!!

Hiywot"
-- http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=26662.0   

This is basically what I (and also the Hebrew Roots Movement) more or less believe was what the Apostles were talking about in Acts 15. I have some disagreements on certain points, however.

Are the Ethiopian Orthodox Judaizers? See also:

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=519615

If you look at the Catholic Church history you'll see that the Nazarenes actually believed Christ had a problem with the Jewish oral torah of the Scribes and the Pharisees, and that this was the the burdensome yoke that they would not even lift with one of their fingers, not the Mosaic Law, just like it actually plainly says in the Gospels.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 01:10:11 PM by TheLoveOfTheTruth »
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Offline Minnesotan

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So I take it you don't wear clothing with two or more types of thread, either.
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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"(is how I interpret it)"

Orthodox Jews/Pharisees interpret it as only being about linen and wool being mixed. Some take it as not having any different types on the same garment at all, I think. I interpret it the way I do currently because it's the way the LXX seems to do so. But I'm open to being wrong on this issue. I don't think it's the most important thing in the world that God is super focused on. Like if I only had one pair of clothes and couldn't get any other, but they were not "kosher", I'm pretty sure God would rather me wear them than walk around nude, I think. I think it's more about the heart intent of the Law, not about just a checklist of rules that need to be checked off. The Law was made for man not man for the Law. But I don't think we should disregard God's righteous character in the Law either and just say all this is all just a bunch outdated stuff that has no real truth to it today except that it pointed to Christ coming and other than that it's just useless.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 01:28:39 PM by TheLoveOfTheTruth »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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"So I take it you don't wear clothing with two or more types of thread, either."

I try not wear clothing with two or more types of thread INTERMINGLED/INTERTWINED (is how I interpret it), but I don't think I do 100% perfectly, though I do watch out for that. But I'm not even saved yet so I have a lot more to worry about than that.

I see.
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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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lol Nazarenes were heretics from the start. For good reason, they rejected the Living Torah. Anyway, I think you've come down with the unhistorical, reverse-reality disease known as individualism. God is a community, as are His Church.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 01:37:07 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”- St. Ambrose of Milan

"Now one cannot be a half-hearted Christian, but only entirely or not at all." -Fr. Seraphim Rose

"He who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen." (1 John 4:20)

Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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"lol Nazarenes were heretics from the start. For good reason, they rejected the Living Torah. Anyway, I think you've come down with the unhistorical, reverse-reality disease known as individualism. God is a community, as are His Church."

You are free to believe whatever you want. I don't buy it. Paul was known as the ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes by the Jews. Why would they think this of him if he was anti-Torah like you, and that to him the Nazarenes were a bunch of judaizing heretics from the beginning like they were to you? I can't see how. They all falsely accused Paul of being against the Law. I can't see how they would mistake him for a "Judaizer" if that is what the Nazarenes were, a bunch of judaizing heretics. The Nazarenes never rejected the Living Torah. That's preposterous.

Yeah I believe God has a community but I'm not convinced it's you.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 01:56:30 PM by TheLoveOfTheTruth »
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Scripture gives plenty of texts that tell us what to look for in someone to know if whether or not they are a true Christian (without actually laying them all out here, and Scripture doesn't matter anyway because I'm not ever going to understand it until I kill my brain and blindly accept man's authority over my God and God given conscience and reasoning abilities). Like the fruit of people like Ignatius and Polycarp shows they were true Christians, but the fruit of men like Augustine and Calvin shows they weren't.
I think this summarizes this thread quite nicely.
God bless!

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Scripture gives plenty of texts that tell us what to look for in someone to know if whether or not they are a true Christian (without actually laying them all out here, and Scripture doesn't matter anyway because I'm not ever going to understand it until I kill my brain and blindly accept man's authority over my God and God given conscience and reasoning abilities). Like the fruit of people like Ignatius and Polycarp shows they were true Christians, but the fruit of men like Augustine and Calvin shows they weren't.
It's interesting how you like Polycarp and Ignatius, yet reject their teaching, their legacy and their Church.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”- St. Ambrose of Milan

"Now one cannot be a half-hearted Christian, but only entirely or not at all." -Fr. Seraphim Rose

"He who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen." (1 John 4:20)

Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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"It's interesting how you like Polycarp and Ignatius, yet reject their teaching, their legacy and their Church."

It's interesting that you actually think you follow them, when you clearly don't.
"TRUTH IS HATE TO THOSE WHO HATE THE TRUTH"

Offline TheTrisagion

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"It's interesting how you like Polycarp and Ignatius, yet reject their teaching, their legacy and their Church."

It's interesting that you actually think you follow them, when you clearly don't.

Like this one?

Quote from: St. Ignatius of Antioch in his Epistle to the Smyraeans
You must all follow the lead of the bishop, as Jesus Christ followed that of the Father; follow the presbytery as you would the Apostles; reverence the deacons as you would God's commandment.

or this?


Quote from: St. Ignatius of Antioch in his Epistle to the Magnesians
It is outrageous to utter the name of Jesus Christ and live in Judaism

How about this?

Quote from: St. Ignatius of Antioch in his Epistle to the Smyraeans
Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be, even as wheresoever Christ Jesus is, there is the catholic church.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 02:15:15 PM by TheTrisagion »
God bless!

Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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"It's interesting how you like Polycarp and Ignatius, yet reject their teaching, their legacy and their Church."

It's interesting that you actually think you follow them, when you clearly don't.

Like this one?

Quote from: St. Ignatius of Antioch in his Epistle to the Smyraeans
You must all follow the lead of the bishop, as Jesus Christ followed that of the Father; follow the presbytery as you would the Apostles; reverence the deacons as you would God's commandment.

Yes, that is true, in the context of everything else of Scripture and Truth, and right logic and reason.
"TRUTH IS HATE TO THOSE WHO HATE THE TRUTH"

Offline TheTrisagion

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"It's interesting how you like Polycarp and Ignatius, yet reject their teaching, their legacy and their Church."

It's interesting that you actually think you follow them, when you clearly don't.

Like this one?

Quote from: St. Ignatius of Antioch in his Epistle to the Smyraeans
You must all follow the lead of the bishop, as Jesus Christ followed that of the Father; follow the presbytery as you would the Apostles; reverence the deacons as you would God's commandment.

Yes, that is true, in the context of everything else of Scripture and Truth, and right logic and reason.

Scripture doesn't matter anyway because I'm not ever going to understand it
God bless!

Offline biro

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TLOT, how do you figure you are apparently the only one who can correctly interpret Scripture?
My only weakness is, well, never mind

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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"It's interesting how you like Polycarp and Ignatius, yet reject their teaching, their legacy and their Church."

It's interesting that you actually think you follow them, when you clearly don't.

Like this one?

Quote from: St. Ignatius of Antioch in his Epistle to the Smyraeans
You must all follow the lead of the bishop, as Jesus Christ followed that of the Father; follow the presbytery as you would the Apostles; reverence the deacons as you would God's commandment.

Yes, that is true, in the context of everything else of Scripture and Truth, and right logic and reason.
'

No, if you actually read Ignatius, it's absolute. There are no exceptions. Whoever honors the bishop, honors God, he who doesn't...
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”- St. Ambrose of Milan

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"He who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen." (1 John 4:20)

Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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In context: "Scripture doesn't matter anyway because I'm not ever going to understand it until I kill my brain and blindly accept man's authority over my God and God given conscience and reasoning abilities" And I was obviously being sarcastic, which you know.
"TRUTH IS HATE TO THOSE WHO HATE THE TRUTH"

Offline TheTrisagion

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So, how exactly do you interpret St. Ignatius "in context" that supports your view of him? Where is your bishoop? Where are your presbyters? Where are your deacons?
God bless!

Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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"No, if you actually read Ignatius, it's absolute. There are no exceptions. Whoever honors the bishop, honors God, he who doesn't..."

No, I said in the context of EVERYTHING. Not just Ignatius' Letters. And I cannot accept that any truth would contradict logic. And VALID BISHOPS.
"TRUTH IS HATE TO THOSE WHO HATE THE TRUTH"

Offline Mor Ephrem

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"No, if you actually read Ignatius, it's absolute. There are no exceptions. Whoever honors the bishop, honors God, he who doesn't..."

No, I said in the context of EVERYTHING. Not just Ignatius' Letters. And I cannot accept that any truth would contradict logic. And VALID BISHOPS.

How do you interpret the Bible in light of the Ramayana/String Theory? 
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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So, how exactly do you interpret St. Ignatius "in context" that supports your view of him? Where is your bishoop? Where are your presbyters? Where are your deacons?

Free will exists. Remember? Unfortunately, as far as I know, there are not any true valid overseers, elders, and ministers in my area to go and be under. But even if they were I think they would probably send me out of the congregation in order to complete a process of repentance or something until I could be allowed in. Or something like that.
"TRUTH IS HATE TO THOSE WHO HATE THE TRUTH"

Offline TheTrisagion

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So, how exactly do you interpret St. Ignatius "in context" that supports your view of him? Where is your bishoop? Where are your presbyters? Where are your deacons?

Free will exists. Remember? Unfortunately, as far as I know, there are not any true valid overseers, elders, and ministers in my area to go and be under. But even if they were I think they would probably send me out of the congregation in order to complete a process of repentance or something until I could be allowed in. Or something like that.
Can you point to any bishop alive today as a "valid bishop"? I'm curious to know who you believe to be a valid bishop.
God bless!

Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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TLOT, how do you figure you are apparently the only one who can correctly interpret Scripture?

I don't. Almost anyone can do so, I believe. Most just choose not to, from what I can tell, because they don't like true logic because it is not easy. I'm sure I'm not right about everything. That's why we need the Body of Christ to correct each other, and especially the Holy Spirit which will lead us into all truth, which I also don't have, which I need to seek earnestly to be filled with.
"TRUTH IS HATE TO THOSE WHO HATE THE TRUTH"

Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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"Can you point to any bishop alive today as a "valid bishop"? I'm curious to know who you believe to be a valid bishop."

No, I'm pretty sure I'm going to need to earnestly seek Christ in repentance and prayer and fasting (begging in shameless persistence) for him to come to me, or send me an angel, or a supernatural message of some sort that I know is from God, that shows me where to go and what precisely to do, which would include who I should be under. I just don't see any other way. It's not just about words on paper but the power of God. If God is real and never changes then he must still do things like this for people who earnestly desire him and seek him.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 02:41:11 PM by TheLoveOfTheTruth »
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Offline TheTrisagion

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FYI, you can just push the "quote" button in the top right corner of a post, and it will auto quote it so you don't have to do it the way you are doing. It is much faster that way to respond.  :)

Back on topic, So you don't know if there are any valid bishops alive or where they are, but you aren't willing to consider the possibility that bishops who have a well documented lineage back to the Apostles might, in fact, be the bishops that Scripture and St. Ignatius are speaking of? The Patriarch of Antioch can directly trace his line back to St. Ignatius himself, yet you think there are other unspecified "bishops" out there that are unknown that have better claim to that position?  :o
God bless!

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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In context: "Scripture doesn't matter anyway because I'm not ever going to understand it until I kill my brain and blindly accept man's authority over my God and God given conscience and reasoning abilities" And I was obviously being sarcastic, which you know.

Except that God invested man with His authority. It's clear in the Gospel: "Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." (Matthew, 18:18)

"The one who hears you hears me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects him who sent me." Luke 10:16

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever receives the one I send receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me.”
(John 13:20)

“Whoever receives you receives me, and whoever receives me receives him who sent me." (Matthew 10:40)

"18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven
." (Matthew 16:18-19)

etc.

The Apostles are given authority in the above verses, the Bishops are their successors and share in their apostolic office.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”- St. Ambrose of Milan

"Now one cannot be a half-hearted Christian, but only entirely or not at all." -Fr. Seraphim Rose

"He who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen." (1 John 4:20)

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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"No, if you actually read Ignatius, it's absolute. There are no exceptions. Whoever honors the bishop, honors God, he who doesn't..."

No, I said in the context of EVERYTHING. Not just Ignatius' Letters. And I cannot accept that any truth would contradict logic. And VALID BISHOPS.

I guess you should quit being a Christian then... The Gospel is foolishness to the Greeks and a stumbling block to the Jews, which is why you continue to reject the Holy Spirit, just as your hardhearted forefathers did.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”- St. Ambrose of Milan

"Now one cannot be a half-hearted Christian, but only entirely or not at all." -Fr. Seraphim Rose

"He who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen." (1 John 4:20)

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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TLOT, how do you figure you are apparently the only one who can correctly interpret Scripture?

I don't. Almost anyone can do so, I believe. Most just choose not to, from what I can tell, because they don't like true logic because it is not easy. I'm sure I'm not right about everything. That's why we need the Body of Christ to correct each other, and especially the Holy Spirit which will lead us into all truth, which I also don't have, which I need to seek earnestly to be filled with.

Which is why Muslims make more sense in regards to their errant heretical piece of garbage "Scripture" than all 40,000 denominations of Protestants do. They don't pretend to understand what it means.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”- St. Ambrose of Milan

"Now one cannot be a half-hearted Christian, but only entirely or not at all." -Fr. Seraphim Rose

"He who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen." (1 John 4:20)

Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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"FYI, you can just push the "quote" button in the top right corner of a post, and it will auto quote it so you don't have to do it the way you are doing. It is much faster that way to respond.  :)"

I know, sometimes it annoys me and sometimes I feel like doing it, which is why I am doing it sometimes and other times not.

"Back on topic, So you don't know if there are any valid bishops alive or where they are, but you aren't willing to consider the possibility that bishops who have a well documented lineage back to the Apostles might, in fact, be the bishops that Scripture and St. Ignatius are speaking of? The Patriarch of Antioch can directly trace his line back to St. Ignatius himself, yet you think there are other unspecified "bishops" out there that are unknown that have better claim to that position?  :o"

I'm pretty closed minded now to the RC, EO, and OO being the truth, especially the RC. I was never really open-minded to them. But if I do that, and if and when God tells me what to do, and he tells me, for instance, the EO, or OO is the truth or something. I would probably just calm down, put everything aside then, and believe it, and start going that road in faith, since it would be hard to deny that and trust my understanding then since I might be missing information, or not considering something, but I would have to keep seeking him more with questions that I would hope he would at least eventually answer if I was continuing in faithfulness to confirm my faith, so that I might know that I'm not following a miraculous trick from Satan which is not of truth/logic. Like Abraham was told by God to sacrifice his son Isaac, and Abraham trusted God that he knew what he was talking about, so he went along with t, and then later on he learned more of the truth. Before that when he just started knowing God, he questioned God's intentions in his judgement on Sodom and Gomorah, and God was merciful to him, catered to it and confirmed his righteousness to Abraham by answering his questions. Thus now Abraham after Abraham had walked with God a long time and gotten to know to trust God's judgement fully, when it came to the Isaac thing, it was no question what to do, just obey. I've studied the written Word enough now to know enough about God how to approach him and to trust in a revelation, and not be hasty but patient when it comes. Therefore even if I didn't have all the answers right away, but "God" came to me in a supernatural way and told me to go into the Orthodox Church, I would not see why I shouldn't just go and do so at that time and just trust God. I might ask for God to tell me again in a similar way just to confirm it's from him because in Scripture it says one knows something is from God if it happens like two of more times, like Pharaoh's dream.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 03:14:31 PM by TheLoveOfTheTruth »
"TRUTH IS HATE TO THOSE WHO HATE THE TRUTH"

Offline TheTrisagion

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Very few people ever receive a supernatural revelation from God. Even when St. Thomas was approached by Christ and told to touch his side and his hands, the next thing Christ said was "you have believed because you have seen. Blessed are those who believe and have not seen." It is prideful for us to expect and anticipate some supernatural revelation from God. Read the Scriptures, read the early writings of the Church. I was anti-Catholic and Orthodox growing up, but when I started reading the writings of the early Church, I could not but help to realize that there is a Church today that is visible and can be traced throughout history. The early writers testify to it, Christ testifies to it and prophecy testifies to it. It is our duty to accept and humble ourselves to the Church, not look for supernatural signs.
God bless!

Offline PeterTheAleut

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TLOT, how do you figure you are apparently the only one who can correctly interpret Scripture?

I don't. Almost anyone can do so, I believe. Most just choose not to, from what I can tell, because they don't like true logic because it is not easy. I'm sure I'm not right about everything.
"I don't know that I'm right, but I know that you're wrong."

That's why we need the Body of Christ to correct each other, and especially the Holy Spirit which will lead us into all truth, which I also don't have, which I need to seek earnestly to be filled with.
Not just any schmo can claim to be a member of the Body of Christ.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 03:29:40 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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"No, if you actually read Ignatius, it's absolute. There are no exceptions. Whoever honors the bishop, honors God, he who doesn't..."

No, I said in the context of EVERYTHING. Not just Ignatius' Letters. And I cannot accept that any truth would contradict logic. And VALID BISHOPS.

"I guess you should quit being a Christian then... The Gospel is foolishness to the Greeks and a stumbling block to the Jews, which is why you continue to reject the Holy Spirit, just as your hardhearted forefathers did."

Well the Greeks didn't follow 100% true logic or else they would have followed the true God. Truth cannot be without Logic. True Logic is the truth, which is not illogical. Truth cannot be for then it would not be truth. You cannot do anything without the laws of logic and reason. Without logic we could have nonsense like this, every single interpretation of Scripture can be valid, since there is no law of non-contradiction, and we could even at the same time say no interpretation of Scripture is true at the same time. We could have nonsense like, all Scripture is God-breathed and true, and at the same time all Scripture is not God-breathed and is false, also God is not real and is real at the same time. You won't get far without logic, friend. Everyone uses logic to some degree, but basically everyone only does so to a limit, as suits them. Because I guarantee if everyone used 100% correct reasoning they would come to the truth. God is the REASON everything is, and he is not arbitrary, which is unreasonable. 

Now the Jews sought a sign. And God gave them the sign of the prophet Jonah only. But he also did many other signs and wonders in their presence. The sign that they sought was specific. They wanted him to overthrow the Roman Government and come to power and give them their kingdom, NOW, while they were in their unrepentant state of hypocrisy. They didn't think they needed to repent and thought they deserved this kingdom or something. Now I do seek a sign but I'm not seeking a sign like that. Christ did many signs and wonders to prove himself. Even after the Apostles he did it too. And never changes. And I am not asking for a sign on what to do and follow while I just go about my normal mode of life and don't stop everything and get on my face in repentance, humility seeking like my life depends on it. Christ said if we seek and keep on seeking we will find. He told us to seek. He said that if we ask for bread, he will not give us a cobra. He will not turn us away if all we want is him and his truth and come to him seeking it with shameless persistent begging on our faces, in sincerity, and in humility and brokenness. No way! That is not what it says anyway!

And I said I'm open to what God tells me even if it is to shut up, put all aside and be Orthodox. I doubt that is what he would do, highly. But I can't be so proud as to not even consider it at all. Plus I was at one time a lot more open to it.

I hope you understand.
"TRUTH IS HATE TO THOSE WHO HATE THE TRUTH"

Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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I'm sure I'm right about very many things. I don't think God made my brain defective. But I think considering how bad things are today, I need some supernatural assistance to become complete. But I don't rule out the possibility that somehow I could be a lot more wrong, and that there is something I'm missing. I'm not that prideful. But I don't think it is prideful at all to ask of God in faith with persistence in the manner Christ taught, however long it takes, or how hard it is, without giving up, and believe one will receive. At least may receive. It's really my only hope. If God doesn't think I'm valuable enough to have this assistance from him, then so be it. He knows best, but I don't know what I'm going to do then. I'll probably be in deep depression for the rest of my life as long as I can resist the temptations of the flesh to completely go back to all my old vomit. Maybe that won't be enough and will not satisfy me and I'll come back to depression and die like that. I don't know. But I really doubt that if God is real, and Christ is true, and the Scriptures are too, that those who speak against this are right. I actually did believe Christ rose from the dead before I seen it, and I have held on to that till now since many, many years ago now. I don't think it's the same. And even if it excludes me from some blessing, as long as I get the help I need I'll be happy. I doubt God would condemn anyone for doing the very hard anti-flesh work of seeking in such a manner, I really do.

« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 03:44:12 PM by TheLoveOfTheTruth »
"TRUTH IS HATE TO THOSE WHO HATE THE TRUTH"

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Nonsense, it's because the Greeks were entirely logical that the idea of God becoming man, or of the Resurrection was foolishness to them.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”- St. Ambrose of Milan

"Now one cannot be a half-hearted Christian, but only entirely or not at all." -Fr. Seraphim Rose

"He who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen." (1 John 4:20)

Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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"Nonsense, it's because the Greeks were entirely logical that the idea of God becoming man, or of the Resurrection was foolishness to them."

I say that what you say is nonsense. If logic doesn't matter then something being nonsense doesn't even matter anyway, so leave me to my nonsense and I'll leave you to yours, and we'll both be alright in the end, or maybe we won't, or maybe both. Who knows? Who cares? It's not about logic. How is God becoming man illogical? How is Resurrection illogical? It's not. Just because it was TO THEM, doesn't mean it really is. The Greeks were not entirely logical. Their beliefs were sometimes very stupid. Many Christian writers proved this many times. Sometimes they made sense on certain things, but not always. These Greeks may have BELIEVED that they were entirely following logic, but even if that was their intention, it doesn't mean they were. If they were, they would not have so easily rejected the Gospel as they did.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 03:52:16 PM by TheLoveOfTheTruth »
"TRUTH IS HATE TO THOSE WHO HATE THE TRUTH"

Offline Papist

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"Nonsense, it's because the Greeks were entirely logical that the idea of God becoming man, or of the Resurrection was foolishness to them."

I say that what you say is nonsense. If logic doesn't matter then something being nonsense doesn't even matter anyway, so leave me to my nonsense and I'll leave you to yours, and we'll both be alright in the end, or maybe we won't, or maybe both. Who knows? Who cares? It's not about logic. How is God becoming man illogical? How is Resurrection illogical? It's not. Just because it was TO THEM, doesn't mean it really is. The Greeks were not entirely logical. Their beliefs were sometimes very stupid. Many Christian writers proved this many times. Sometimes they made sense on certain things, but not always.
And, are we talking logic or reason? The terms are not entirely interchangeable.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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"No, if you actually read Ignatius, it's absolute. There are no exceptions. Whoever honors the bishop, honors God, he who doesn't..."

No, I said in the context of EVERYTHING. Not just Ignatius' Letters. And I cannot accept that any truth would contradict logic. And VALID BISHOPS.

"I guess you should quit being a Christian then... The Gospel is foolishness to the Greeks and a stumbling block to the Jews, which is why you continue to reject the Holy Spirit, just as your hardhearted forefathers did."

Well the Greeks didn't follow 100% true logic or else they would have followed the true God.
Who taught you that logic is the way to God?

Truth cannot be without Logic. True Logic is the truth, which is not illogical. Truth cannot be for then it would not be truth. You cannot do anything without the laws of logic and reason.
Whose laws of logic and reason do you follow?

Without logic we could have nonsense like this, every single interpretation of Scripture can be valid, since there is no law of non-contradiction, and we could even at the same time say no interpretation of Scripture is true at the same time. We could have nonsense like, all Scripture is God-breathed and true, and at the same time all Scripture is not God-breathed and is false, also God is not real and is real at the same time. You won't get far without logic, friend. Everyone uses logic to some degree, but basically everyone only does so to a limit, as suits them. Because I guarantee if everyone used 100% correct reasoning they would come to the truth. God is the REASON everything is, and he is not arbitrary, which is unreasonable. 

Now the Jews sought a sign. And God gave them the sign of the prophet Jonah only. But he also did many other signs and wonders in their presence. The sign that they sought was specific. They wanted him to overthrow the Roman Government and come to power and give them their kingdom, NOW, while they were in their unrepentant state of hypocrisy. They didn't think they needed to repent and thought they deserved this kingdom or something. Now I do seek a sign but I'm not seeking a sign like that. Christ did many signs and wonders to prove himself. Even after the Apostles he did it too. And never changes. And I am not asking for a sign on what to do and follow while I just go about my normal mode of life and don't stop everything and get on my face in repentance, humility seeking like my life depends on it. Christ said if we seek and keep on seeking we will find. He told us to seek. He said that if we ask for bread, he will not give us a cobra. He will not turn us away if all we want is him and his truth and come to him seeking it with shameless persistent begging on our faces, in sincerity, and in humility and brokenness. No way! That is not what it says anyway!

And I said I'm open to what God tells me even if it is to shut up, put all aside and be Orthodox.
How does God speak to you? You don't think it possible that He could speak to you through other people? Or is it only to the voices in your head that you listen?
Not all who wander are lost.