Author Topic: Marx the Satanist???  (Read 1054 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline wgw

  • All scorpions must DIE!!!
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,816
  • This icon is of St. Athansius.
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Marx the Satanist???
« on: June 17, 2015, 10:26:28 PM »
I just had a rather strange conversation with a friend who alas cannot grasp Orthodoxy and goes to a non denominational chapter where his circile seem to share aome rather strange doctrines, to say the least.

He expressed a view that Marx and Engels were Christian (news to me, I thought Marx at least was Jewish) and at some point their correspondance took on a miso theistic volte face, to the extent that he thought they had become devil worshippers.  Any truth to this, or do I toss this into the wastebasket labelled "Weird Stuff Protestants Say")?

My friend alas cannot stand the Orthodox disinterest in YEC vs evolutionist debates.  And my attempts at explaining how we dont as a Church care (although some Orthodox are in both camps) because it doesnt help with repentence, have alas fallen on deaf ears.

Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Marx the Satanist???
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2015, 10:44:12 PM »
I'm confused. Marx was a devil worshipping Christian? How exactly does that work?
God bless!

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,322
  • Faith: Orthodox Catholic Church
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Marx the Satanist???
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2015, 10:44:18 PM »
I actually recall that Marx was born in a Jewish family that had became Lutheran. When I was studying Marx, that is. I don't study Marxism any more.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2015, 10:44:52 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline wgw

  • All scorpions must DIE!!!
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,816
  • This icon is of St. Athansius.
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Marx the Satanist???
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2015, 11:24:54 PM »
I'm confused. Marx was a devil worshipping Christian? How exactly does that work?

He apparently went from being a Christian to being a devil worshipper along with Engels commensurate with their development of Communism, according to my friend.

The whole thing strikes me as being entirely absurd.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2015, 11:26:14 PM by wgw »
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Marx the Satanist???
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2015, 11:54:06 PM »
Dem non-denoms be cray-cray!
God bless!

Offline wgw

  • All scorpions must DIE!!!
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,816
  • This icon is of St. Athansius.
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Marx the Satanist???
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2015, 11:57:24 PM »
Indeed.  I fear alas there is nothing of interest here.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2015, 11:57:43 PM by wgw »
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline William T

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,545
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: Marx the Satanist???
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2015, 12:03:05 AM »
I just had a rather strange conversation with a friend who alas cannot grasp Orthodoxy and goes to a non denominational chapter where his circile seem to share aome rather strange doctrines, to say the least.

He expressed a view that Marx and Engels were Christian (news to me, I thought Marx at least was Jewish) and at some point their correspondance took on a miso theistic volte face, to the extent that he thought they had become devil worshippers.  Any truth to this, or do I toss this into the wastebasket labelled "Weird Stuff Protestants Say")?

My friend alas cannot stand the Orthodox disinterest in YEC vs evolutionist debates.  And my attempts at explaining how we dont as a Church care (although some Orthodox are in both camps) because it doesnt help with repentence, have alas fallen on deaf ears.

Marx was a "Satanist" in the way all fashionable young cosmopolitan  "Protestant" Germans were in his day.  It would be better to call the younger Marx a Romantic Promethian (and anti Catholic), like Byron.  All "radicals" invoked Satan at the time (as many still do) as part of their epater le bourgeois  schtick, it's just part of their custom.

Think of his early poetry as typically clichéd  bad turgid writing, though a different kind of bad and turgid than Das kapital.  Closer to a 17 year old Goth kid singing about power fantasies, or whatever utilizing Satan or neo pagan signs ....it's not really Satan worship, just a kind of rebellion.

If you want to treat Marx as a philosopher   (and not an economist, which Marx wanted to be treated as, though is not anymore), he ought be treated as a left Hegelian.  These guys were by definition a certain strand of atheists and materialists....and once again in the German kulturkampf  of the time, anti Catholic.  I think Feuerbach  considered Orthodoxy a retarded form of Catholicism that was too stupid to even develop scholasticism.  Either way, even here this isn't satanism.  If you want it in  theologic terms it is ultra-liberal academic Protestantism that is no longer Christian.


Offline Minnesotan

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,329
  • Milo Thatch is the ONLY Milo for me. #FreeAtlantis
Re: Marx the Satanist???
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2015, 12:09:17 AM »
I actually recall that Marx was born in a Jewish family that had became Lutheran. When I was studying Marx, that is. I don't study Marxism any more.

German Lutheranism at that time (the 1840s) was full of a lot of weird ideas as a result of the newfound influence of higher criticism. These included the Tübingen School which taught that Paul was a proto-Marcionite and that the other apostles had basically just taught Judaism with Jesus as the Messiah, and that the two religions ("Jewish Christianity" and "Gentile Christianity") were only synthesized into one much later on. Hegel was an influence on that school of thought, as he was on Marx. One of Marx's teachers was a Tübingen Schooler as well: Bruno Bauer. There were a lot of heated controversies going on at the time over just how "Jewish" Christianity was and is, and these debates were complicated further by the rising anti-Semitism.

Arguably, these revisionist attempts contributed to the rise of Positive Christianity (an attempt to "purify" Christianity by removing all Jewish influence) and the ease with which Germans later embraced Nazism.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 12:10:16 AM by Minnesotan »
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline William T

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,545
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: Marx the Satanist???
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2015, 12:09:56 AM »
As for his religious  background:  his father was a Jew who converted to Lutheranism, but not for religious  purposes, more for a social advancement / customary kind of reason.

Marx's  "anti semitism" was merely the fashionable  anti semitism of the time, and compared to other thinkers (like Wagner and Schopenhauer) was comparably tame and humane.  So it's not fair to call him anti semetic if you ever hear that charge thrown against him.

Offline William T

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,545
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: Marx the Satanist???
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2015, 12:13:08 AM »
I actually recall that Marx was born in a Jewish family that had became Lutheran. When I was studying Marx, that is. I don't study Marxism any more.

German Lutheranism at that time (the 1840s) was full of a lot of weird ideas as a result of the newfound influence of higher criticism. These included the Tübingen School which taught that Paul was a proto-Marcionite and that the other apostles had basically just taught Judaism with Jesus as the Messiah, and that the two religions ("Jewish Christianity" and "Gentile Christianity") were only synthesized into one much later on. Hegel was an influence on that school of thought, as he was on Marx. One of Marx's teachers was a Tübingen Schooler as well: Bruno Bauer. There were a lot of heated controversies going on at the time over just how "Jewish" Christianity was and is, and these debates were complicated further by the rising anti-Semitism.

Arguably, these revisionist attempts contributed to the rise of Positive Christianity (an attempt to "purify" Christianity by removing all Jewish influence) and the ease with which Germans later embraced Nazism.

Good call.  Bauer, Feuerbach , and Strauss are crucial  theologins to understand during this time if you are trying to wrap your head around all these philosophic and academic theological  trends.  Of course, that means you will have to read a lot of Germans ponder and plod endlessly about .... I think that may be the 1st circle of hell in Dante.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 12:14:49 AM by William T »

Offline augustin717

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,842
  • Faith: Higher Criticism
  • Jurisdiction: Dutch
Re: Marx the Satanist???
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2015, 12:05:51 AM »
I'm sure the late pastor Wurmbrand is to be blamed for popularising this sory about Marx being a satanist. He wrote an involuntarily humorous book on the subject too; now I'm suspecting it might have been par of his CIA job. But it found some audience.
"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."