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Author Topic: A century-old deceit and double-mindedness  (Read 1605 times) Average Rating: 0
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Kefa
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« on: June 27, 2005, 10:37:46 AM »

A century-old deceit and double-mindedness by the called ones who were called to serve the Lord and to spread the Word of the Lord to the faithful.

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The ‘Malankara Edavaka Panchangam - 1908’, by Geevarghese Ramban (Late Mor Baselius Geevarghese I)

“And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

The Antiochean Apostolic Throne bearer with the venerable name Abdedaloho, H.H. Ignatius Patriarch governs the Holy Church”
   
This was published in the year 1908, after Mor Abdul Messiah was removed from his position as the Patriarch and H.H. Ignatius Abdedaloho (Abdullah) Patriarch was governing the Church.  This Clearly shows the devotion and submission of the Late Mor Baselius Geevarghese I (“IOC SAINT DESIGNATE”) towards H.H. Ignatius Abdedaloho.  But later in 1912 the same Geevarghese Ramban received ordination from the excommunicated Mor Abdul Messiah.  It is very ironical that nothing about the throne of St. Thomas is mentioned in here. 

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‘Mathopadeshasaarangal’, by Mor Geevarghese Divannasius Vattaserril

“The primal and complete ecclesiastical authority of the Holy Church rests in the Patriarch of the throne of Antioch, H.H. Mor Ignatius.”

This was recently changed by the IOC faction to flatter the faithful according to their wish and will.  In the same book, Mor Vattaserril (The present saint of IOC) describes about the after effects if some one gets excommunicated from the Church.  “If some one is found guilty of his doings, he has to be excommunicated.  Once excommunicated, he is not supposed to participate in any sacraments of the Holy Church, and the faithful should not participate in any sacraments offered by the alleged person.” 

Mor Vattaserril was ordained as a Metropolitan in 1908, by H.H. Mor Ignatius Abdedaloho, Patriarch of Antioch and all the East.  But due to his wrong doings, Mor Vattaserril was excommunicated from the Church in 1911, by the same Patriarch.  In the life history book written by Z.M. Parett, ‘Vattaseril Mor Deevannasius’, pg. 464 says that Mor Vattaseril after being excommunicated did not offer the Holy Qurbano or participate in any holy sacraments for a while.  Again, it is ironical that some one who was excommunicated from the church was later canonized as a Saint to the same degree of St. Gregorios.   

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Murimattom Mor Ivanios ( Mor Baselius Poulose I)

Was ordained in 1876 by the Patriarch of Antioch and was loyal to the Church until 1911.  He was present in the meeting that decided to replace Mor Vattasseril by H.G. Mor Koorilose as the Malankara Metropolitan.  Mor Murimattom organized the necessary things needed for the Mooron Sanctification at the Aluva Thrikunnathu Seminary by H.H. Ignatius Abdedaloho in 1911.  Mor Murimattom even sent a Metropolitan Bull to all the churches requesting their presence and support.  The bull started as:
“From Metropolitan Mor Ivanios as instructed by our Holy Father the Patriarch H.H. Mor Ignatius Abdedaloho.”
But in 1912 he was ordained as the Catholicose by Mor Abdul Messiah, the non-canonical Patriarch.  It is ironical that this Mor Abdul Messiah while he was on the throne wrote a bull that was a reply for every one who requested for the re-establishment of the Catholicate in India.  The bull said, “Cursed is the one who even thought of this treacherous thought.”

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Ougen Mor Themothios ( Mor Baselius Ougen)

Ougen Mor Themothios was ordained as the Catholicose of the East by H.H. Mor Iganatius Yakub III, the Patriarch of Antioch on May 22, 1964.  During the ordination Mor Ougen was made to wear a white rob and had a Shosappa over his head which was rare scene that any one would see at the ordination of a Catholicose.  Mor Ougen’s salmoosa:

“ I the feeble and meek Ougen Mor Themothios, chosen for ecclesiastical office of the Catholicose, confess my belief before this synod and before the Head of this synod, H.H. Moran Mor Ignatius Yakub III, Patriarch of Antioch and all the East, that the Patriarch is my Head, that I accept from St. Peter, the Head of the Holy Apostles upto your Holiness all the canonical Patriarchs who have reigned on your Holiness’s throne and all those who come after Your Holiness.  Once again, I repeat my canonical connection with the Holy throne of Antioch.  I swear that I shall no depart from this solemn Oath”. 
   
But after achieving the office of the Catholicate, the doings of Mor Baselius Ougen and the oath he took were absolutely contradictory.  But, think about this.  How can a High priest deviate from the oath that he took inside the burning altar of the Holy God?  “ Let none of you think evil in your heart against your neighbor; and do not love a false oath.  For all these are things that I hate, says the Lord”- Zechariah 8:17

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Comments made by Fr. P.G. Cherian (Mor Nicholovas, Asst. Metropolitan of IOC) in his article “The Twentieth Century Schism In The Malankara Church” which was published in the year 1990 in the M.S.O.T. Seminary publication ‘Excelsior’.  As a young clergy who had gained vast knowledge through researches and studies on the history of the Malankara Church, Fr. P.G. Cherian clearly expresses his views and opinions on the root cause of the schisms that happened in the Malankara Church in the 20th Century.  It is very interesting to compare the contradiction in the ideas expressed through this article while he was a lecturer at the M.S.O.T seminary and the ideas followed by him at present. 

“The history of the Syrian Orthodox Church, in India is a lesson for any serious student of history, about the drastic and destructive effects caused by the adamancy and autocracy of a bishop, Mar Dionysius VI who was not willing to abide by the long standing traditions of the church.  In this venture he was supported by a group of misguided nationalists who could not perceive the idea of a church, which transcends national and ethnical limitations.”

The writer did switch to the side who still have misguided nationalists, the side who beatified the same Mor Dionysius VI (Mor Vattasseril Dionysius) as a saint, the side who commemorates Mor Dionysius in their worship, the side who has feasts in the name of Mor Dionysius, the side who have leaders who do not want to (or ignore) to perceive the idea of a Church, that was built on St. Peter the rock, which transcends national and ethnical limitations.

“The struggle between the reform group and the mainstream of the church brought several issues into the limelight. One of these was the authority of the Patriarch over the Church in Malankara. While the reform group bluntly refused to accept any type of authority of the Patriarch over the Malankara Metropolitan, the mainstream of the church under the leadership of Mar Dionysius V decided to abide by the long standing tradition of the Malankara Church that Malankara Church inspite of its national and ethnic characteristics should maintain its catholic nature by continuing its relationship with the Patriarchate of Antioch.”

The writer is now an advocate of cutting off all kind of connections that the Church once had and now have with beyond the national boundary of India. 

http://thomarel.tripod.com/

http://thomarel.tripod.com/id2.html

http://kundarapally.tripod.com/
     
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paul2004
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« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2005, 01:23:24 PM »

May of these are statements with no proof, just articulated by Jacobite faction.

St. Jacob (Baradaeus) ordained Mar Sergis and resotred the succession in Antioch after few years of brocken succession. The ordination of St. jacob was from Alexandria.  The priesthood of Antiochian church is from Alexandria. Even the OO faith is from Alexandria. So,
if Indian Church received any help from Antioch, it is understood as Alexandrian faith transfered to Indian Church. Antioch is a medium.

In the OO communion the Alexandrian Church enjoys primacy of honor.

Is there any truth in saying that the Alexandrine Church is just a subordinate Church under Antioch based on primacy of succession of St. Peter in Antioch?

Indian Church is Apostolic, founded by Apostle Thomas and if this Church received any help from another Church, indian Church is thankful to that Church and continue to maintain healthy relationship with Orthodox Bishops of other Churches.  Indian Church remembers saintly fathers of Antiochian Church and include their names in the Church calendar of annual feasts.

As said by H.H, Gheevarghese 11, our loyalty is towards faith, which is not blind fanaticism in Antiochian succession based on primacy of Petrine throne. 

Why always suggesting that IOC should change? Why not change you RC beliefs in Petrine primacy and universal rule borrowed from RC? Why not change first and then suggest IOC to alter OO faith?

Why you sign as 'Kefa'? Is it to promote Petrine Primacy?


Peace
Paul
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paul2004
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« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2005, 01:43:44 PM »

Dear Kefa,

You always talk about Patriarch who has no direct jurisdiction in India. The primary aim of Church consitution is the administration of Indian Church - how bishops should be ordained and how the Church should be managed.

Indian Church requires Indian bishops and the aim of existence of Church in India is to continue the Apostolic work in India. You try to mix it with meanigless issues and resulting unchristian struggles. There is no meaning in talking too much about Patriarch of SOC, especially a Patriarch who is not strict about OO Communion (otherwise he will not freely accept RC and EO communion with out a consensus within OO).  The duty of me and you as Indian Christians is not to talk too much about Patriarch of Syrians. Our aim should the progress of OO faith and Church in India.

If you can honor the Malankara Metropolitan and end all divisions or continue to teach universal supremacy and cause all kinds of divisions. There is only one Malankara Metropolitan and Catholicos of the East to be accepted in OO faith. One faith, one Synod, one Church for India.  We wish peace and prosperity to Syrians and their Holy Church.  Let us also request their prayers for our  peaceful existence in India as one Church.

Peace
Paul
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Kefa
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« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2005, 02:38:56 PM »

Hey Paul,
You cricitize the SOC for being in communion with RC.  But have you ever looked at what your church is doing.

http://www.marthomaorthodoxchurch.com/history.html

You sound like a child who wanted to prove that his mother is good by running around saying bad things about other peoples mother.

If these bishops the founding fathers of Independent Indian Orthodox church never wanted to be under the Patriarch of Antioch why did they make that promise in front of the Altar.  Doesnt a promise taken in front of the Holy Altar mean nothing to you or to those bishops? 

Look at what Catholicose Mor Ougen said in front of the Altar

“ I the feeble and meek Ougen Mor Themothios, chosen for ecclesiastical office of the Catholicose, confess my belief before this synod and before the Head of this synod, H.H. Moran Mor Ignatius Yakub III, Patriarch of Antioch and all the East, that the Patriarch is my Head, that I accept from St. Peter, the Head of the Holy Apostles upto your Holiness all the canonical Patriarchs who have reigned on your Holiness’s throne and all those who come after Your Holiness.  Once again, I repeat my canonical connection with the Holy throne of Antioch.  I swear that I shall no depart from this solemn Oath”. 

What he said this for fun??  "I swear that I shall no depart from this solemn Oath”.  What the Altar is a place to practice lies???  What value do you give to the oath that your four recently ordained bishops took in front of the Altar?   Huh
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Kefa
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« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2005, 03:17:32 PM »

Syriac Orthodox Church maintains Ecumenical Relations with various different churches.

http://sor.cua.edu/Ecumenism/

Ecumenism promotes christianity.  I do not understand why Independent Indian Church would want to hinder Ecumenism. 

I am an Indian.  And I would like to maintain my ancistorial beliefs and the faith of my Saint Mor Gregorius Gheevarghese.  They never had a vision of having an independent alienated indian church.  Our church's attachment to the Apostolic church of Antioch is nothing to be ashamed of but infact it only adds glory to our church. 

How could you today say that Mor Gregorius and our ancistors were wrong.  Thirumenis shalmootho (oath of obedience) to the Patriarch documents his unconditional submission and loyalty to the Apostolic throne of Antioch. Please take a look at it.

http://sor.cua.edu/Personage/MGregoriusGChathuruthil/18761216shalmootho.html

"My weak selves will never, at any day, violate the decisions, rules, and canon laws particularly noted in this declaration as well as those omitted from this declaration for brevity but stated here as the many other canon laws, decisions, rules, practices, and customs of the Jacobite Syrians, any commandments of Your Holiness or those of the Patriarchs who will be in this position over the times publicly or in private, and conduct or encourage, do or persuade to do, speak or incite speech, help or promote, agree or persuade any conduct, deeds or speech, in opposition to or disapproval to such commandments, and never detract from or depart from these commandments or oppose or be silent and never join other ways opposed to the faith of the Jacobite Syrians or do anything or accept anything opposed to the customs of our Syrian Church, or ever believe in any doctrine contrary to those of the three Holy Synods. If indeed I do, as were Satan and Cain cursed by God, I will be accursed and execrated from the mouths of God, the head of the Apostles, Apostle Patros, and his eleven brothers, the Apostles of our Lord Meshiha, the fiery Mor Ignatios, the holy fathers who participated in the three Holy Synods, all the malpans (teachers) who were given breath by the Holy Spirit, the authority equivalent to Apostle Patros and the steward of the truth of our Lord Meshiha, Patros the Third the exalted Moran Mor Ignatios Patriarch and all the high priests who will succeed him on the Apostolic throne of Antioch and in addition will be separated from God's Holy Church and the communion of the Holy Mysteries and removed and distanced from the blessings and positions I have received and stripped of the white robes of high priesthood. May God's wrath be upon me! "
Mor Gregorius Geewargis of Parumala Submitted to H.H. Moran Mor Ignatius Peter III of Antioch & All the East

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paul2004
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« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2005, 04:11:22 PM »



I am an Indian.  And I would like to maintain my ancistorial beliefs and the faith of my Saint Mor Gregorius Gheevarghese.  They never had a vision of having an independent alienated indian church.  Our church's attachment to the Apostolic church of Antioch is nothing to be ashamed of but infact it only adds glory to our church. 





Dear Kefa, Any father who received ordination directly from Antioch would sign an agreement like that.  There is nothing unnatural about it. I am sure that the head of Protestant Church,  Palakunnathu Mar Athanasius (first indian Bishop to be ordained by Patriarch) also signed one such document of agreement with similar contents.

Mar Yakub Burdana would have signed such a document with Patriarch Theodosius of Alexandria when the saint received ordination.  There is a time when any Church depend on a sister Church for help. This is natural and we all accept it.

You said that any connection with Antioch will add to the glory of our Church. I agree with you, but would also like to add that we have very good connection with all our sister Churches in one communion. If it is just connection - which I understand as unity in confession of faith - I totally agree with you. We are fully in agreement here. But if you mean that Indian church should eternally remain a subordinate Church, then I do not agree with you. What I believe is unity of equal churches in one faith and communion.

Also you mentioned about the connection adding to the glory of our Church. In all humility, though from a lesser Indian Church, I would like to make this a mutual aspect, i.e. any connection with us will add to the glory of their Syrian church also.

I hope at least now you can sincerely appreciate what I believe.

Peace
Paul

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Kefa
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« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2005, 02:44:27 PM »

So as per you to get an ordination any means is necessacy??? Which is exibited by most of your bishops.
I pity you and your church.
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paul2004
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« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2005, 05:17:28 PM »

So as per you to get an ordination any means is necessacy??? Which is exibited by most of your bishops.
I pity you and your church.

Dear Kefa,

We do not blindly follow any one. When you learn the truth, we stick to the truth, not going back to the old state.

Lucian, head of Antioch was in Arain faith. He was corrected by other churches. If the attitude was to blindly follow Lucian, then SOC would be Arian in faith today.  John of Antioch was a supportor of Nestor. But Alexandrian Patriarch educated him with the Orthodox faith. If the attitude was to follow John of Antioch blindly, then SOC would be Nestorian today.

Our Indian fathers initially sought help from Western churches against RC and Protestant persecution.  But later some of these  fathers who came to help us exploited the Indian Church. 

Initially Indian fathers accepted Mar Abdulla and Mar Yakubb 111, but when they started promoting false teachings and engage in uncanonical acts, the Synod unanimously rejected them. Regarding Mar Abdulla, it is only after sending a delagation to Syria that Indian Church learned the truth of what happened there (that he payed money to become Patriarch while serving as RC bishop etc.).
Immediately the Church rejected them. So, the adherence is only to the true faith, not blindly to the position and supremacy of the title 'Patriarch of Antioch'.  Hope your people realize this important aspect. 

Church includes only Orthodox fathers in the calendar, fathers who lived in good faith and with ambition to unify the Church.


Also, today remaining subordinate to SOC is not beneficial for Indian Church. It can only help more people to accept RC faith and few other deviations (as I have noticed in my home town where Jacobites attend RC church).

Peace
Paul






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Kefa
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« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2005, 06:32:33 PM »

Abandoning your mother when she gets old or when she get wringles in not the indian culture i was brought up in.  Abandoning something when it is not benefitiary is not our indian tradition.  I belive your thinking and mindset is influenced by western teachings and wester culture living in US.  Living in a country where they abandon parents into nursing home when they get old or are not benefitial, i could defenetly understand where your ideas are comming from.  But biting the hand that once fed me is not the Indian way of doing things.  Sorry but this idea of an independent indian church does not attract me.  I guess i will cling on the beliefs of my ancistors and my Chathurathil kochu thirumeni.  I dont expect anything else but this kind of beliefs from a person who left his church for another.  Abandoning your ancistors faith.  Just remember, just because your father got sick for couple of day does not mean you go and find your mother another father for u......

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paul2004
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« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2005, 12:06:47 PM »

Which mother Church?

It is only in the 17th century that Indian Church sought help from Antioch (we are facing the consequences of that connection today). Indian Church was founded by Apostle Thomas who ministered, ordained Bishops and died in India.

There are many churches which seperated from the mother Indian Church. They need to come back for unity.  UNity of SOC is impoirtant in the middle-east, but in India what is important is the unity of the Indian mother Church.  This should be appreciated.

-Paul
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