Author Topic: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?  (Read 8671 times)

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Offline JamesR

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Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« on: June 12, 2015, 01:56:11 AM »
I know right off the bat that most of you will interpret this as blasphemy or some type of insult. However, it isn't meant as such. It's just an honest inquiry into what I perceive as some "peculiarities" about our Lord's personality which I think could potentially fit the Aspergers Syndrome bill. If you think that is offensive, then that says more about your dislike and lowly view of people who have the condition than it does about offense or blasphemy. That said...

Admittedly I'm not a clinician and thus in no way capable of giving out an actual diagnosis, but from my limited knowledge of Aspergers Syndrome, I think that our Lord seemed to demonstrate many, if not all, of the traits. He constantly offended people--often inadvertently--He often appeared "cold" or "uncaring," He monologued, He was awkward in social situations to such a degree that people either loved Him as their savior or wanted to kill Him. He seemed either unaware of or unconcerned with social conventions, both in a positive and a negative way. Negative in that it seemed He didn't know how to console people and was brutally honest, but by that same token, positive in that He was willing to associate with lepers, prostitutes, widows, and other such people that society would have frowned upon. I can think of multiple occasions where Christ "weirded" someone out and even offended them, but I can only think of one instance where He legitimately *expressed* empathy (although I have no doubt He always felt it) in a way we would classify as normal--that is, when He wept with Mary and Martha as they grieved Lazarus' death.

Again, I'm in no way qualified to give a real diagnosis. But I do think that in the most respectable way possible, it's undeniable that there was something "weird" about our Lord's personality as depicted in the gospels, possibly even "unlikable" in a way. I'm not going to lie. He seemed very rude most of the time. Not that any of that is a bad thing, but I think that anything about our Lord is worth inquiring into so why not His personality?

Could He have had Aspergers Syndrome? Do you think He demonstrates the traits commonly associated with those who have the condition?

And I'll ask the final question to those who still consider this inquiry blasphemous: assuming our Lord does have AS, what changes? Why can't we still worship Him the same? What is it about having AS that you would consider so bad or unworthy that our Lord couldn't possibly have it? Is it that you personally wouldn't worship someone who had the condition? We should be careful not to fall into the same arrogance as the Jews at the time--a poor Jewish carpenter on a donkey and inevitably a Cross couldn't possibly be our savior. Replace that with "Someone with Aspergers Syndrome couldn't possibly be our savior." If the notion that God could become a lowly human is accepted, why is it considered so beyond comprehension that He could have been a human with Aspergers?

Offline Rhinosaur

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2015, 02:05:10 AM »
As He was fully human, Jesus might have had some form of physical ailments (though nothing that hampered His ministry).  With that being said, no worldly condition could have gotten between Him and His message.  I honestly see Christ's temperamental peculiarities as simply manifestations of His divine wisdom that are difficult for mortal minds to fully comprehend.

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2015, 02:11:54 AM »
I know right off the bat that most of you will interpret this as blasphemy or some type of insult. However, it isn't meant as such. It's just an honest inquiry into what I perceive as some "peculiarities" about our Lord's personality which I think could potentially fit the Aspergers Syndrome bill. If you think that is offensive, then that says more about your dislike and lowly view of people who have the condition than it does about offense or blasphemy. That said...

Admittedly I'm not a clinician and thus in no way capable of giving out an actual diagnosis, but from my limited knowledge of Aspergers Syndrome, I think that our Lord seemed to demonstrate many, if not all, of the traits. He constantly offended people--often inadvertently--He often appeared "cold" or "uncaring," He monologued, He was awkward in social situations to such a degree that people either loved Him as their savior or wanted to kill Him. He seemed either unaware of or unconcerned with social conventions, both in a positive and a negative way. Negative in that it seemed He didn't know how to console people and was brutally honest, but by that same token, positive in that He was willing to associate with lepers, prostitutes, widows, and other such people that society would have frowned upon. I can think of multiple occasions where Christ "weirded" someone out and even offended them, but I can only think of one instance where He legitimately *expressed* empathy (although I have no doubt He always felt it) in a way we would classify as normal--that is, when He wept with Mary and Martha as they grieved Lazarus' death.

Again, I'm in no way qualified to give a real diagnosis. But I do think that in the most respectable way possible, it's undeniable that there was something "weird" about our Lord's personality as depicted in the gospels, possibly even "unlikable" in a way. I'm not going to lie. He seemed very rude most of the time. Not that any of that is a bad thing, but I think that anything about our Lord is worth inquiring into so why not His personality?

Could He have had Aspergers Syndrome? Do you think He demonstrates the traits commonly associated with those who have the condition?

And I'll ask the final question to those who still consider this inquiry blasphemous: assuming our Lord does have AS, what changes? Why can't we still worship Him the same? What is it about having AS that you would consider so bad or unworthy that our Lord couldn't possibly have it? Is it that you personally wouldn't worship someone who had the condition? We should be careful not to fall into the same arrogance as the Jews at the time--a poor Jewish carpenter on a donkey and inevitably a Cross couldn't possibly be our savior. Replace that with "Someone with Aspergers Syndrome couldn't possibly be our savior." If the notion that God could become a lowly human is accepted, why is it considered so beyond comprehension that He could have been a human with Aspergers?

As Christ is true God and true Man, modern psychiatry and psychology would like to place Him in the abnormal spectrum, whatever name they can choose.

Just take a look at the MMPI.
How would Christ answer those questions?

I have met several Christian psychiatrists and psychologists who have left that profession due to the anti-Christian atmosphere in the APA. Ethically, they felt that they could no longer belong to such a bigoted organization.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 02:13:20 AM by Maria »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2015, 02:27:30 AM »
I know what you mean about Christ being a little strange in terms of his interactions with people, but I'm not sure any of what you mention couldn't be explained in terms of deliberately pushing people along in His journey to the Cross. He was definitely "in a rush" in some way (all the references to the shortness of the hour and His time having not yet come) during His earthly ministry, and may not in a sense have had time to be as super patient with people, not that He was ever sinfully impatient, as He is now and was during the OT.
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Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2015, 02:34:57 AM »
If He had Aspergers He couldn't understand non Asperger people so He can't be a fair and righteous judge we do not worship a man He had the same character traits He had from the beginning of existence especially because He came to reveal the Father
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 02:35:35 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline JamesR

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2015, 02:44:36 AM »
I know what you mean about Christ being a little strange in terms of his interactions with people, but I'm not sure any of what you mention couldn't be explained in terms of deliberately pushing people along in His journey to the Cross. He was definitely "in a rush" in some way (all the references to the shortness of the hour and His time having not yet come) during His earthly ministry, and may not in a sense have had time to be as super patient with people, not that He was ever sinfully impatient, as He is now and was during the OT.

I agree and think that is probably the most reasonable explanation for His "strangeness." I mean, anytime you have the divine coming together with the material, chances are the results will be strange. Christ wasn't just the man but the man who is also fully God. That said, it's still an interesting possibility that I occasionally ponder.

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2015, 02:45:11 AM »
If He had Aspergers He couldn't understand non Asperger people so He can't be a fair and righteous judge we do not worship a man He had the same character traits He had from the beginning of existence especially because He came to reveal the Father

Aspies can achieve a certain level of understanding (certainly no less than neurotypicals understand them), they just have to work at it. Beyond that, it's hard to say anything concrete about the mental life of Christ given His divinity.

I can at least say that I'm sure that anything necessary that Christ might have lacked according to the flesh would have been made up for according to His divinity post-Resurrection.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2015, 02:45:55 AM »
I know what you mean about Christ being a little strange in terms of his interactions with people, but I'm not sure any of what you mention couldn't be explained in terms of deliberately pushing people along in His journey to the Cross. He was definitely "in a rush" in some way (all the references to the shortness of the hour and His time having not yet come) during His earthly ministry, and may not in a sense have had time to be as super patient with people, not that He was ever sinfully impatient, as He is now and was during the OT.


I agree and think that is probably the most reasonable explanation for His "strangeness." I mean, anytime you have the divine coming together with the material, chances are the results will be strange. Christ wasn't just the man but the man who is also fully God. That said, it's still an interesting possibility that I occasionally ponder.

Yeah.


I agree that it is definitely an interesting subject to ponder.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 02:46:36 AM by Volnutt »
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2015, 02:59:58 AM »
Along with Sherlock Holmes, if you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.  Impossible?  Perhaps not.  Improbable?  Yes.

Diagnosing Aspergers is difficult with the advances made over the years, it is next to impossible to make any such diagnosis using only texts based off of oral traditions from a century when aspergers would have been as incomprehensible to people as a Saturn V rocket.

What is probable is that this is one of the most ridiculous theories I have ever heard postulated about our Lord.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2015, 03:06:13 AM »
I know right off the bat that most of you will interpret this as blasphemy or some type of insult.
Then why broadcast such self-fulfilling prophecies?

However, it isn't meant as such.
No, it's just meant to be stupid.

It's just an honest inquiry into what I perceive as some "peculiarities" about our Lord's personality which I think could potentially fit the Aspergers Syndrome bill. If you think that is offensive, then that says more about your dislike and lowly view of people who have the condition than it does about offense or blasphemy. That said...
So you say.

Admittedly I'm not a clinician and thus in no way capable of giving out an actual diagnosis, but from my limited knowledge of Aspergers Syndrome, I think that our Lord seemed to demonstrate many, if not all, of the traits. He constantly offended people--often inadvertently--He often appeared "cold" or "uncaring," He monologued, He was awkward in social situations to such a degree that people either loved Him as their savior or wanted to kill Him. He seemed either unaware of or unconcerned with social conventions, both in a positive and a negative way. Negative in that it seemed He didn't know how to console people and was brutally honest, but by that same token, positive in that He was willing to associate with lepers, prostitutes, widows, and other such people that society would have frowned upon. I can think of multiple occasions where Christ "weirded" someone out and even offended them, but I can only think of one instance where He legitimately *expressed* empathy (although I have no doubt He always felt it) in a way we would classify as normal--that is, when He wept with Mary and Martha as they grieved Lazarus' death.

Again, I'm in no way qualified to give a real diagnosis. But I do think that in the most respectable way possible, it's undeniable that there was something "weird" about our Lord's personality as depicted in the gospels, possibly even "unlikable" in a way. I'm not going to lie. He seemed very rude most of the time. Not that any of that is a bad thing, but I think that anything about our Lord is worth inquiring into so why not His personality?
Maybe He just wanted to confront sin so people would repent and be saved.

Could He have had Aspergers Syndrome? Do you think He demonstrates the traits commonly associated with those who have the condition?

And I'll ask the final question to those who still consider this inquiry blasphemous: assuming our Lord does have AS, what changes? Why can't we still worship Him the same? What is it about having AS that you would consider so bad or unworthy that our Lord couldn't possibly have it? Is it that you personally wouldn't worship someone who had the condition? We should be careful not to fall into the same arrogance as the Jews at the time--a poor Jewish carpenter on a donkey and inevitably a Cross couldn't possibly be our savior. Replace that with "Someone with Aspergers Syndrome couldn't possibly be our savior." If the notion that God could become a lowly human is accepted, why is it considered so beyond comprehension that He could have been a human with Aspergers?
Do you have a license to practice psychology? If so, then give it back. I think you've been cheated.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 03:18:31 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2015, 10:34:34 AM »
I don't know what is behind this recent trend to try and psychoanalyze people from history, but it needs to stop.

http://mentalfloss.com/article/12500/11-historical-geniuses-and-their-possible-mental-disorders
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2015, 10:37:55 AM »
The LORD is unique, in that He is the perfect human.  Since He came to earth to set an example, at least that was one of His motives, perhaps He seems to have Asperger's Spectrum to those who have it and seems to be normal to those who are normal.  Either way, there is much we do not know about Aspergers's Syndrome, so we cannot diagnose someone with a condition that we barely know about ourselves:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2015, 10:42:56 AM »
James is just bored.
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2015, 11:11:49 AM »
Admittedly I'm not a clinician and thus in no way capable of giving out an actual diagnosis, but from my limited knowledge of Aspergers Syndrome, I think that our Lord seemed to demonstrate many, if not all, of the traits. He constantly offended people--often inadvertently--He often appeared "cold" or "uncaring," He monologued, He was awkward in social situations to such a degree that people either loved Him as their savior or wanted to kill Him. He seemed either unaware of or unconcerned with social conventions, both in a positive and a negative way. Negative in that it seemed He didn't know how to console people and was brutally honest, but by that same token, positive in that He was willing to associate with lepers, prostitutes, widows, and other such people that society would have frowned upon. I can think of multiple occasions where Christ "weirded" someone out and even offended them, but I can only think of one instance where He legitimately *expressed* empathy (although I have no doubt He always felt it) in a way we would classify as normal--that is, when He wept with Mary and Martha as they grieved Lazarus' death.

Do you have Asperger's Syndrome, James?
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Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2015, 11:28:06 AM »
It's our modern concept of compassion that is wrong and perverted, the silly demand of children spoiled by material prosperity as never seen in history.

We think that to be compassionate or empathic is to "take care of feelings", and even that to sacrfice truth to avoid "offense" can be a virtue. And then when some people notice that it's not quite that, they want to go to the straight opposite offending everybody for petty reasons.

Both are grotesque and vile.

Jesus Christ is the only fully sane and healthy person to have walked on Earth. He did hurt feelings, specially when it was necessary to hurt them, to make people grow "You say you want to follow me? You don't know where I'm going and the pains that it entails!" "Stay back, Satan!" "Why should I share the food of my children with dogs?" etc etc.

Our feelings are not half as important as we think.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 11:29:07 AM by Fabio Leite »
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2015, 11:40:59 AM »

No.  Jesus was perfect in all ways.

Besides, it is rare to get aspies to cry or to commiserate with others.  Christ cried when he was in Bethany and people were mourning the passing of Lazarus.

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2015, 11:44:52 AM »
Oh look, the Divine speaking human doesn't come across like just any human. Shock, winnings. ::)
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2015, 11:48:39 AM »
Why is there a recent tendency to label someone aspy when they exhibit some of the behavior but not consistently? I'm not doubting autism, but aspergers gets used far too frequently.

As to the OP, we will never know and can't. We can speculate on hundreds of other things about Jesus life, does that matter? Does it matter to you if he had AS, as its diagnosed today?

For me I'd say no to both questions.
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2015, 11:57:16 AM »
Could God have Aspergers Syndrome, James?
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2015, 12:21:16 PM »
I don't think it is an offensive question. I don't think he did but there simply is no way to know. And we have no idea what the Lord's personality was like. You cannot reconstruct it from rather short books written decades after his Resurrection with a specific audience and purpose in mind.

I would dare say the Lord could have had anything in his humanity. Or has the Church stated that it is not possible for him to suffer in His humanity?
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Offline Antonis

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2015, 12:50:46 PM »
I don't think it is an offensive question. I don't think he did but there simply is no way to know. And we have no idea what the Lord's personality was like. You cannot reconstruct it from rather short books written decades after his Resurrection with a specific audience and purpose in mind.

I would dare say the Lord could have had anything in his humanity. Or has the Church stated that it is not possible for him to suffer in His humanity?
No, his humanity was pre-lapsarian, and thus would not suffer the consequences of the fall, such as disorders like asperger's.

Jesus did not have asperger's.
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2015, 01:05:23 PM »
I don't think it is an offensive question. I don't think he did but there simply is no way to know. And we have no idea what the Lord's personality was like. You cannot reconstruct it from rather short books written decades after his Resurrection with a specific audience and purpose in mind.

I would dare say the Lord could have had anything in his humanity. Or has the Church stated that it is not possible for him to suffer in His humanity?
No, his humanity was pre-lapsarian, and thus would not suffer the consequences of the fall, such as disorders like asperger's.

Jesus did not have asperger's.
Hi Antonis,

I am not familiar with that concept. Are there sources you could refer me to?
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Offline Antonis

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2015, 01:50:11 PM »
I don't think it is an offensive question. I don't think he did but there simply is no way to know. And we have no idea what the Lord's personality was like. You cannot reconstruct it from rather short books written decades after his Resurrection with a specific audience and purpose in mind.

I would dare say the Lord could have had anything in his humanity. Or has the Church stated that it is not possible for him to suffer in His humanity?
No, his humanity was pre-lapsarian, and thus would not suffer the consequences of the fall, such as disorders like asperger's.

Jesus did not have asperger's.
Hi Antonis,

I am not familiar with that concept. Are there sources you could refer me to?
That is understandable, it is little-discussed but important! Unfortunately, because it is little-discussed, there are many who assume His humanity to be post-lapsarian, even many Orthodox writers.

If you do a little digging online, you may find some writing on the topic. If you are interested enough, there is a rather substantial book out by Fr Emmanuel Hatzidakis wherein he counters many assumptions made about the human nature of Christ. It is titled Jesus Fallen?:

http://www.orthodoxwitness.org/jesus-fallen.php
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2015, 01:55:43 PM »
James is just bored.

Do you have Asperger's Syndrome, James?

Well someone around here has to throw some spice peppers in the oc.net gumbo...  8)
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2015, 02:02:23 PM »
James is just bored.

Do you have Asperger's Syndrome, James?

Well someone around here has to throw some spice peppers in the oc.net gumbo...  8)

Kelly and I are so hot we make gumbo seem like so much rain water collected in a rusty pail for use in watering vegetable patches. 
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2015, 02:05:00 PM »
That was strikingly specific.
God bless!

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2015, 02:06:18 PM »
That was strikingly specific.

Expect perfection.
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2015, 02:09:56 PM »
Kelly and I are so hot we make gumbo seem like so much rain water collected in a rusty pail for use in watering vegetable patches.

So who's the jalapeño and who's the Scotch bonnet? :P
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2015, 02:27:20 PM »
Is it possible that JamesR needs to log off from OC.net?
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2015, 02:34:46 PM »
Kelly and I are so hot we make gumbo seem like so much rain water collected in a rusty pail for use in watering vegetable patches.

So who's the jalapeño and who's the Scotch bonnet? :P


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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2015, 02:36:49 PM »
Is it possible that JamesR needs to log off from OC.net?

He's entertaining to the say the least.

He needs to log off of the internet altogether and get out into the real world a bit. 
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2015, 02:54:01 PM »
First of all Asperger's Syndrome, technically, no longer exists.  Secondly, as someone said, it is a disorder and therefore something our Lord could not have had.  Autistics lack the ability to understand things like social cues and etiquette.  They also lack the ability to filter stimuli properly and innately order their environment.  They have to be taught many of the things neurotypical people just know how to do.  High functioning autistics,  like those with what used to be called Asperger's Syndrome or my own child, are able to do this and can even eventually "test off the spectrum" but many are never able to do so.

As far as Christ's idiosyncrasies I think we can pin those on two major things:  writing style and motive.  The first is that we are talking about people writing narratives, not court reporters taking dictations.  We really don't know for certain how Christ spoke on a regular basis.  He also certainly had no problem with crowds from what I can tell.  He grew weary likely because he knew he could not help them all.  And I don't mean could not as in lacked the ability but could not in that doing so would be counterintuitive to his mission.  Which leads to the second point:  Christ's motive was the mission so he likely had to put aside niceties once in a while to assure the message was put out.  I think these two things, and probably many more others could come up with, far more greatly explain any so-called quirks Christ appeared to have.
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2015, 02:58:46 PM »
Did Jesus not get tummy aches when he was a kid?
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2015, 03:37:55 PM »
Did Jesus not get tummy aches when he was a kid?

If Jesus could weightlift...

I wont finish that thought.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 03:41:52 PM by kelly »
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2015, 03:50:57 PM »
Did Jesus not get tummy aches when he was a kid?

If Jesus could weightlift...

I wont finish that thought.

Yeah, I was thinking of that thread when I wrote that, though I admit that I assumed that everyone would still be afraid of the naked emperor's wrath... what can you do but continue to hope though?  8)
"when Mme. Vauquer lay down to rest on the day of M. Goriot's installation, her heart, like a larded partridge, sweltered before the fire of a burning desire to shake off the shroud of Vauquer and rise again as Goriot." - Balzac

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2015, 04:03:30 PM »
I haven't read all of the posts - so please forgive if I repeat something that's already been said.

I don't think He was on the autistic spectrum.  I don't think the Bible is a good source to think that He may have been - as the punctuation and translation will always be a problem.  Our culture is also a hindrance in understanding what is 'quirky' behavior and what is not. 

I DO think He probably used each and every cell in His body to the complete maximum potential - to include His brain cells.  He demonstrated a wonderful ability to go INTO the crowd despite fatigue and grief - someone with high functioning autism (especially if they were able to speak and did not lose speech (how Aspergers was defined) would be way too overloaded on stimuli to do that.  The anxiety would be very high. 

He showed no signs of senses scramble (hearing what is described as colors, seeing sounds, etc.)

So. . . If I put His statements in context - even the long speeches - of a rabbi / preacher. . .and also give the WRITERS credit to write what they remember - which is this larger than all the universe God/person in their midst, then everything falls into place.

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #36 on: June 12, 2015, 04:03:40 PM »
Did Jesus not get tummy aches when he was a kid?

If Jesus could weightlift...

I wont finish that thought.

Yeah, I was thinking of that thread when I wrote that, though I admit that I assumed that everyone would still be afraid of the naked emperor's wrath... what can you do but continue to hope though?  8)

I can't find that thread for the life of me. PM it to me?
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #37 on: June 12, 2015, 04:10:42 PM »
Somehow I can't imagine Jesus having a disorder like Asperger's. I know he shared our human nature, and experienced the same emotions and tiredness, hunger, etc that we do, but inherently I think his human body was flawless.

Apologies if I make no sense with that; I'm rather sleep-deprived right now.
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #38 on: June 12, 2015, 04:52:01 PM »
Somehow I can't imagine Jesus having a disorder like Asperger's. I know he shared our human nature, and experienced the same emotions and tiredness, hunger, etc that we do, but inherently I think his human body was flawless.

Apologies if I make no sense with that; I'm rather sleep-deprived right now.
It made infinitely more sense than the OP, so you're doing fine.  ;)
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #39 on: June 12, 2015, 06:48:06 PM »
Somehow I can't imagine Jesus having a disorder like Asperger's. I know he shared our human nature, and experienced the same emotions and tiredness, hunger, etc that we do, but inherently I think his human body was flawless.

Apologies if I make no sense with that; I'm rather sleep-deprived right now.

How is that not the heresy of apthartodocetism? One could argue that hunger and tiredness are disorders in a sense, too.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #40 on: June 12, 2015, 06:53:36 PM »
If He had Aspergers He couldn't understand non Asperger people so He can't be a fair and righteous judge we do not worship a man He had the same character traits He had from the beginning of existence especially because He came to reveal the Father

One could just as easily say that if he didn't have Asperger's, then he couldn't understand Asperger people....
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #41 on: June 12, 2015, 06:55:05 PM »
Somehow I can't imagine Jesus having a disorder like Asperger's. I know he shared our human nature, and experienced the same emotions and tiredness, hunger, etc that we do, but inherently I think his human body was flawless.

Apologies if I make no sense with that; I'm rather sleep-deprived right now.

How is that not the heresy of apthartodocetism? One could argue that hunger and tiredness are disorders in a sense, too.

I have never heard of the heresy of apathartodocetism. By "disorder", I meant an abnormality of the brain or body. Everyone experiences hunger and tiredness; that is part of being human. However, having Asperger's is not an inevitable part of being human.
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2015, 07:01:23 PM »
Quote
Neurotypical syndrome is a neurobiological disorder characterized by preoccupation with social concerns, delusions of superiority, and obsession with conformity.

Neurotypical individuals often assume that their experience of the world is either the only one, or the only correct one. NTs find it difficult to be alone. NTs are often intolerant of seemingly minor differences in others. When in groups NTs are socially and behaviorally rigid, and frequently insist upon the performance of dysfunctional, destructive, and even impossible rituals as a way of maintaining group identity. NTs find it difficult to communicate directly, and have a much higher incidence of lying as compared to persons on the autistic spectrum.

NT is believed to be genetic in origin. Autopsies have shown the brain of the neurotypical is typically smaller than that of an autistic individual and may have overdeveloped areas related to social behavior.

How Common Is It?

Tragically, as many as 9625 out of every 10,000 individuals may be neurotypical.

Are There Any Treatments For NT?

There is no known cure for Neurotypical Syndrome.

However, many NTs have learned to compensate for their disabilities and interact normally with autistic persons.

From here.
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2015, 07:16:00 PM »
James, part of your question mentions "our Lord".  Is He really "your" Lord?
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2015, 07:40:04 PM »
Somehow I can't imagine Jesus having a disorder like Asperger's. I know he shared our human nature, and experienced the same emotions and tiredness, hunger, etc that we do, but inherently I think his human body was flawless.

Apologies if I make no sense with that; I'm rather sleep-deprived right now.

How is that not the heresy of apthartodocetism? One could argue that hunger and tiredness are disorders in a sense, too.

I have never heard of the heresy of apathartodocetism. By "disorder", I meant an abnormality of the brain or body. Everyone experiences hunger and tiredness; that is part of being human. However, having Asperger's is not an inevitable part of being human.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Aphthartodocetism

Yes, but if it wasn't for the Fall, nobody would hunger or thirst. It's a part of the postfall human condition, but not inherent to our being.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2015, 07:40:47 PM »
If He had Aspergers He couldn't understand non Asperger people so He can't be a fair and righteous judge we do not worship a man He had the same character traits He had from the beginning of existence especially because He came to reveal the Father

One could just as easily say that if he didn't have Asperger's, then he couldn't understand Asperger people....

You said it more concisely than I did lol.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #46 on: June 12, 2015, 08:10:58 PM »
The literary devices used by the NT can't really be taken as behavioral evidence.
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #47 on: June 12, 2015, 09:06:52 PM »
The literary devices used by the NT can't really be taken as behavioral evidence.

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Offline Antonis

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #48 on: June 12, 2015, 09:51:48 PM »
No, his humanity was pre-lapsarian, and thus would not suffer the consequences of the fall, such as disorders like asperger's.

Jesus did not have asperger's.
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"when Mme. Vauquer lay down to rest on the day of M. Goriot's installation, her heart, like a larded partridge, sweltered before the fire of a burning desire to shake off the shroud of Vauquer and rise again as Goriot." - Balzac

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #50 on: June 12, 2015, 10:04:54 PM »
No, his humanity was pre-lapsarian

Really? ???
Yes! As I recommended earlier, a certain Fr Emmanuel Hatzidakis has a book entitled Jesus Fallen? which discusses the topic:

http://www.orthodoxwitness.org/jesus-fallen.php

On the page there is a limited overview.
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #51 on: June 12, 2015, 10:17:17 PM »
No, his humanity was pre-lapsarian

Really? ???
Yes! As I recommended earlier, a certain Fr Emmanuel Hatzidakis has a book entitled Jesus Fallen? which discusses the topic:

http://www.orthodoxwitness.org/jesus-fallen.php

On the page there is a limited overview.

Just added it to my amazon list
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #52 on: June 12, 2015, 11:06:21 PM »
No, his humanity was pre-lapsarian

Really? ???
Yes! As I recommended earlier, a certain Fr Emmanuel Hatzidakis has a book entitled Jesus Fallen? which discusses the topic:

http://www.orthodoxwitness.org/jesus-fallen.php

On the page there is a limited overview.

Then if Christ did not actively will it, the nails could not have penetrated His skin, right? That's just what Julian of Halicarnassus said.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 11:07:30 PM by Volnutt »
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #53 on: June 13, 2015, 01:05:06 AM »
The error appears when we divide expressions of human nature into pre-lapsarian and post-lapsarian, instead of into unfallen, fallen and glorified. If you lose one of the three, you end up arguing that Christ just returned us to our pre-lapsarian state; and if the pre-lapsarian state is what Christ returns us to, then it is also the perfect state. Such are the problems when you neglect one of the three.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 01:05:35 AM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #54 on: June 13, 2015, 08:01:39 AM »
No, his humanity was pre-lapsarian

Really? ???
Yes! As I recommended earlier, a certain Fr Emmanuel Hatzidakis has a book entitled Jesus Fallen? which discusses the topic:

http://www.orthodoxwitness.org/jesus-fallen.php

On the page there is a limited overview.

I think a poor job has been done explaining this concept given the fact that we now have balatant apathartodocerism being discussed.

Where do the Ecumenical Councils or Fathers say our Lord was in his incarnation entirely pre-Lapsarian?

I think we can confess our Lord to have been in fine health unril the Romans beat the living daylights out of him, but, for him to fully participate in the human condition, he would have to have been subject to the full range of human discomfort.  Otherwise his 40 days in the wilderness have no ascetic meaning.

I am prepared to accept our Lord was prelapsarian only if we limit the prelapsarian condition to being one of being free from genetic imperfection, and being of optimal internal health, and being able to survive in the unique environment of the Garden of Eden in the nude without sustaining physical injuries or discomfort, and only if a prelapsaeian individual is visually indisonguishable from a healthy and genetically normal human.
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #55 on: June 13, 2015, 08:10:25 AM »
No, his humanity was pre-lapsarian

Really? ???
Yes! As I recommended earlier, a certain Fr Emmanuel Hatzidakis has a book entitled Jesus Fallen? which discusses the topic:

http://www.orthodoxwitness.org/jesus-fallen.php

On the page there is a limited overview.

Then if Christ did not actively will it, the nails could not have penetrated His skin, right? That's just what Julian of Halicarnassus said.
Julian of Halicarnassus believed that Christ's body was the same both before and after the resurrection. As NicholasMyra points out, there is a third, glorified and risen expression.

Consider the following:

No one takes [My life] from Me, but I lay it down on My own accord. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.
John 10:18

You assumed, O Master, the entire Adam, before His transgression, free from sin.
St. John Damascene - Homilia 1 in Dormitionem

The error appears when we divide expressions of human nature into pre-lapsarian and post-lapsarian, instead of into unfallen, fallen and glorified. If you lose one of the three, you end up arguing that Christ just returned us to our pre-lapsarian state; and if the pre-lapsarian state is what Christ returns us to, then it is also the perfect state. Such are the problems when you neglect one of the three.
Yes, an error would appear there, but we haven't discussed the glorified state yet.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 08:10:58 AM by Antonis »
"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

Offline Antonis

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #56 on: June 13, 2015, 08:25:05 AM »
I think a poor job has been done explaining this concept given the fact that we now have balatant apathartodocerism being discussed.
I think you're just saying that so you can insert yourself into the conversation, as that is not the case whatsoever.
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I am prepared to accept our Lord was prelapsarian only if we limit the prelapsarian condition to being one of being free from genetic imperfection, and being of optimal internal health, and being able to survive in the unique environment of the Garden of Eden in the nude without sustaining physical injuries or discomfort, and only if a prelapsaeian individual is visually indisonguishable from a healthy and genetically normal human.
The only meaningful consequence of what you're "prepared to accept" is your salvation. Theology is not a rhetorician's game, it is the gift of divine illumination and that is where we draw it from. You have demonstrated that you are of able means and desire, consider purchasing the book and reading what the fathers have to say rather than blindly reasoning and putting words in other people's mouths.
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Letter to Diognetus 11.4

Offline qawe

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #57 on: June 13, 2015, 09:00:57 AM »
No, his humanity was pre-lapsarian

Really? ???
Yes! As I recommended earlier, a certain Fr Emmanuel Hatzidakis has a book entitled Jesus Fallen? which discusses the topic:

http://www.orthodoxwitness.org/jesus-fallen.php

On the page there is a limited overview.

So do you disagree with Metropolitan Kallistos Ware? (I know I do on some issues)
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Offline Antonis

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #58 on: June 13, 2015, 09:10:12 AM »
No, his humanity was pre-lapsarian

Really? ???
Yes! As I recommended earlier, a certain Fr Emmanuel Hatzidakis has a book entitled Jesus Fallen? which discusses the topic:

http://www.orthodoxwitness.org/jesus-fallen.php

On the page there is a limited overview.

So do you disagree with Metropolitan Kallistos Ware? (I know I do on some issues)
I believe I do. I am not aware if he has responded to the accusations against his christology, but if he does assert that Christ's human nature was post-lapsarian, I respectfully disagree.
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #59 on: June 13, 2015, 10:53:02 AM »
For my part I am prepared to defend Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, whatever he taught, because he wrote it.  Metropolitan Ware is hugely important as the chief evangelist of Orthodoxy not only to the West, but to the East; in my experience most of the times I thought he might be in error, he was actually defending an ancient view that had been forgotten due to Jesuit or other Western influence.

My only standing disagreement with the man regards the ideal height and configuration of iconostases; Metropolitan Kallistos Ware likes those that provide increased visibility of the altar, like the Templon of the Hagia Sophia or the custom iconostasis used by St. John of Kronstadt, whereas I prefer a towering iconostasis that completely conceals the altar when the curtain over the Holy Doors is closed, and which has full height deacons doors that close flush with the iconostasis, so you don't even notice them when they are closed.  In all other respects, I agree with the Metropolitan, and when he passes away, which hopefully will not happen any time soon, I will be among those advocating for his glorification.

But before we duke it out over this issue, it would help if someone quoted the controversial section of Ware.  Most of the controversy Ive read about his work relates to his explanation of the sufferings of our Lord in experiencing death.
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #60 on: June 13, 2015, 11:07:44 AM »
This topic has been done elsewhere:

Did Jesus Christ Have Autism?
An Interdisciplinary Evidentiary Analysis into the Psychiatric and Medical Literature Supporting the Hypothesis That Autistic Spectrum Disorder (ASD) Was the Root Cause of a Terrible Cross to Bear


http://autisticsymphony.com/jca.html

Did Jesus Christ have Asperger's?

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=628654
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #61 on: June 13, 2015, 11:23:08 AM »
For my part I am prepared to defend Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, whatever he taught, because he wrote it.  Metropolitan Ware is hugely important as the chief evangelist of Orthodoxy not only to the West, but to the East; in my experience most of the times I thought he might be in error, he was actually defending an ancient view that had been forgotten due to Jesuit or other Western influence.

My only standing disagreement with the man regards the ideal height and configuration of iconostases; Metropolitan Kallistos Ware likes those that provide increased visibility of the altar, like the Templon of the Hagia Sophia or the custom iconostasis used by St. John of Kronstadt, whereas I prefer a towering iconostasis that completely conceals the altar when the curtain over the Holy Doors is closed, and which has full height deacons doors that close flush with the iconostasis, so you don't even notice them when they are closed.  In all other respects, I agree with the Metropolitan, and when he passes away, which hopefully will not happen any time soon, I will be among those advocating for his glorification.
You value sentimentality over Truth. The saints were not always perfect in their theology, and neither is Metropolitan Kallistos, regardless of how much he has offered modern Orthodoxy.
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #62 on: June 13, 2015, 11:25:29 AM »
For my part I am prepared to defend Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, whatever he taught, because he wrote it.  Metropolitan Ware is hugely important as the chief evangelist of Orthodoxy not only to the West, but to the East; in my experience most of the times I thought he might be in error, he was actually defending an ancient view that had been forgotten due to Jesuit or other Western influence.

My only standing disagreement with the man regards the ideal height and configuration of iconostases; Metropolitan Kallistos Ware likes those that provide increased visibility of the altar, like the Templon of the Hagia Sophia or the custom iconostasis used by St. John of Kronstadt, whereas I prefer a towering iconostasis that completely conceals the altar when the curtain over the Holy Doors is closed, and which has full height deacons doors that close flush with the iconostasis, so you don't even notice them when they are closed.  In all other respects, I agree with the Metropolitan, and when he passes away, which hopefully will not happen any time soon, I will be among those advocating for his glorification.
You value sentimentality over Truth. The saints were not always perfect in their theology, and neither is Metropolitan Kallistos, regardless of how much he has offered modern Orthodoxy.

Seriously...he's not the second coming of the Apostle Paul. 
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #63 on: June 13, 2015, 12:30:36 PM »
I read some parts of Fr. Emmanuel Hatzidakis' book on the google books preview and I'm sold!  I just bought the book.  It looks like it is definitely worth reading.
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #64 on: June 13, 2015, 12:34:56 PM »
I read some parts of Fr. Emmanuel Hatzidakis' book on the google books preview and I'm sold!  I just bought the book.  It looks like it is definitely worth reading.
Yes, it is quality! There's no such thing as "comprehensive" in theology, but as far as Christology goes, his book appears to be pretty close to it.  :)
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #65 on: June 13, 2015, 12:40:10 PM »
You're telling me!  For 600+ pages, this should be solid.  We just had one Coptic priest who published 700+ pages that concentrates our Christology in contrast to Chalcedon and its legacy in the councils following, using both pre- and post-Chalcedonian patristic sources.  He takes a bit of a polemic view as I was skimming through some of his parts, but it looks like worth the read as well and very comprehensive.
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Offline homedad76

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #66 on: June 13, 2015, 12:47:58 PM »
For me it comes down to what Autism is. If it is a true disability and the brain develops abnormally then I would argue that he could not have been.  However if the brain simply develops differently but not in a way which could be considered bad then it is possible.  It basically depends if you accept the medical definition of disability (anything that occurs outside of the "norm" needs to be fixed) or the social definition (everyone develops a little differently so society needs to adapt somewhat to those differences while those who are different simply need to learn the coping skills necessary to adapt to negative treatment while embracing that they operate differently then their peers)
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #67 on: June 13, 2015, 12:57:31 PM »
And for my 14,000th post I give you:

With the stories of the gospels, Christ not only showed sympathy and empathy for others and the wit to answer to the serpentine members of the community, but was able to express sympathy, empathy, and wit.  The ability to express them is very difficult for an autistic person.  Furthermore, one has to imagine the social stigma of what an autistic person in the time of Christ went through.  With the respect Christ garnered, especially by those who initially could not muster respect even for a man born blind (who was able to stand up against the serpentine Pharisees), such a question is even silly to contemplate.

(edited to mention this was 14K)
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 01:00:12 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #68 on: June 13, 2015, 05:19:34 PM »
As NicholasMyra points out, there is a third, glorified and risen expression.
Unfortunately, I think that your view does not take this into account and, as a result, reduces to Julianism/Apthartodocetism, if we define Julianism in this way:

The belief that "Christ voluntarily underwent x" should be understood as "the incarnate Christ was incapable of undergoing x without special intervention" where x is some incarnate state like hungering, thirsting, crying, tiring, being pierced with nails, etc.

You may argue that Julian did not actually teach this. So much the better for Julian; nevertheless, it is what we mean by Julianism, and it is manifestly contrary to the Gospel.

I haven't read Jesus: Fallen? yet, because I fear I'll find it heartbreaking and will be compelled to throw my energies into the unpleasant activity of objecting to it. It may turn out to be perfectly orthodox, but the chapter headings and the summary worry me.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 05:24:48 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #69 on: June 13, 2015, 06:49:44 PM »
The error appears when we divide expressions of human nature into pre-lapsarian and post-lapsarian, instead of into unfallen, fallen and glorified. If you lose one of the three, you end up arguing that Christ just returned us to our pre-lapsarian state; and if the pre-lapsarian state is what Christ returns us to, then it is also the perfect state. Such are the problems when you neglect one of the three.

+1

I think the talk about "pre-lapsarian" vs. "post-lapsarian" human nature sounds awfully Augustinian. It would imply that "post-lapsarian" humans are not really made in the image of God anymore. That sounds like the theology of Matthias Flacius (who taught that the imago dei was replaced by the imago satanae as a result of the fall). Flacius reportedly contemplated suicide at one point. I wonder why?
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Offline Antonis

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #70 on: June 13, 2015, 06:57:37 PM »
Unfortunately, I think that your view does not take this into account and, as a result, reduces to Julianism/Apthartodocetism
I guess you know more about my personal views than I do, then.
Quote
I haven't read Jesus: Fallen? yet, because I fear I'll find it heartbreaking and will be compelled to throw my energies into the unpleasant activity of objecting to it. It may turn out to be perfectly orthodox, but the chapter headings and the summary worry me.
You are free to read or not read, but it isn't fair to infer and object without reading. Fr Emmanuel's work has the endorsement of multiple hierarchs, including Archbishop Demetrios of New York, Archbishop Nathanael of the Romanian Episcopate, and Metropolitan Nikitas of the Dardanelles.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 07:04:15 PM by Antonis »
"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

Offline Antonis

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #71 on: June 13, 2015, 06:59:06 PM »
The error appears when we divide expressions of human nature into pre-lapsarian and post-lapsarian, instead of into unfallen, fallen and glorified. If you lose one of the three, you end up arguing that Christ just returned us to our pre-lapsarian state; and if the pre-lapsarian state is what Christ returns us to, then it is also the perfect state. Such are the problems when you neglect one of the three.

+1

I think the talk about "pre-lapsarian" vs. "post-lapsarian" human nature sounds awfully Augustinian. It would imply that "post-lapsarian" humans are not really made in the image of God anymore. That sounds like the theology of Matthias Flacius (who taught that the imago dei was replaced by the imago satanae as a result of the fall). Flacius reportedly contemplated suicide at one point. I wonder why?
You don't understand what you're commenting on.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #72 on: June 13, 2015, 09:43:32 PM »
You guys should play professional Scrabble: balatant, apathartodocerism, lapsarian and julianism, just to name a few. Wow.

Work them into a homily and see how many come back net week. 


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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #73 on: June 13, 2015, 10:23:24 PM »
You guys should play professional Scrabble: balatant, apathartodocerism, lapsarian and julianism, just to name a few. Wow.

Work them into a homily and see how many come back net week.

The only word my browser recognizes is lapsarian...

I honestly have never seen or heard those words outside of this thread (I guess I technically still haven't heard them). If a priest started throwing these words around without explanation I might not be inclined to sit through his next homilies, I'm sure inquirers would be pulling out a pocket dictionary as well.
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #74 on: June 13, 2015, 10:33:00 PM »
I agree that it's important to define your terms for those who might not know the theological lingo. I hope any priest would do that.

balatant- not a word. The person misspelled "blatant."

lapsarian- concerning the Fall of Man

Julianism and Apthartodocetism (from the Greek meaning "only appears to be corruptible) are the same thing. They refer to the 6th Century heresy of Julian of Halicarnassus (which may also have been embraced by St. Justinian towards the end of his life) which taught that Christ during His life on earth was naturally incapable of hunger, sickness, pain, etc. (as Adam and Eve supposedly were prior to the Fall, hence prelapsarian and postlapsarian) and had to consciously will Himself to experience these things.

I like to call it the "Jesus goes slumming" heresy since it makes it sound like He was only "half in the flesh" with being too committal about it. I too have some doubts about Fr. Emmanuel's book given the table of contents, but I'll check it out.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 10:38:41 PM by Volnutt »
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #75 on: June 13, 2015, 10:58:37 PM »
You guys should play professional Scrabble: balatant, apathartodocerism, lapsarian and julianism, just to name a few. Wow.

Work them into a homily and see how many come back next week.

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #76 on: June 13, 2015, 11:05:25 PM »
I thought lapsarian meant lhasa apso dogs. ;)



(kidding)
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #77 on: June 13, 2015, 11:10:40 PM »
Many priests (and podcasters, and lecturers, and...) already pepper sermons with funny words that most people don't know... you've just gotten familiar with most of the ones they use. ;)
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #78 on: June 14, 2015, 07:24:55 AM »
Anyway, assuming for the sake of argument that Christ's humanity was pre-lapsarian, the question remains as to whether that would actually preclude Him from having had Aspergers.

If Aspergers is defined as a disorder/disease, then obviously He couldn't have had it under the pre-lapsarian schema. But what if Aspergers is considered simply a different way in which one's brain might be wired? Yes, it can cause difficulty in understanding neurotypicals (and vice versa), but basic differences in people's personalities can also lead to clashes with others and misunderstandings. Are personality differences between people therefore a result of the Fall?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2015, 07:29:08 AM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Antonis

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #79 on: June 14, 2015, 09:21:13 AM »
What exactly are we allowed to discuss on this website?

Someday we'll all reach the humble standard of the 20th century ACROD golden age.
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Letter to Diognetus 11.4

Offline homedad76

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #80 on: June 14, 2015, 11:49:59 AM »
Are personality differences between people therefore a result of the Fall?

I certainly hope not.  Personality differences come from different experiences and choices.  If everyone in heaven has the same personality it doesn't sound very appealing. What we don't know is how genetics and brain development play into personality.  The debate between nature and nurture and their interplay is not going to get resolved. Ever.
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Offline homedad76

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #81 on: June 14, 2015, 11:52:31 AM »
Anyway, assuming for the sake of argument that Christ's humanity was pre-lapsarian, the question remains as to whether that would actually preclude Him from having had Aspergers.

If Aspergers is defined as a disorder/disease, then obviously He couldn't have had it under the pre-lapsarian schema. But what if Aspergers is considered simply a different way in which one's brain might be wired? Yes, it can cause difficulty in understanding neurotypicals (and vice versa), but basic differences in people's personalities can also lead to clashes with others and misunderstandings. Are personality differences between people therefore a result of the Fall?

And welcome to the "cure culture" debate that has been raging first in the deaf community and now in the autism community for decades.  Though it may be better to ask if ASD IS a disorder.  Certainly we can define it as such but that doesn't mean, when it comes to God's deliberate actions vs effects of the fall, that it actually IS one.
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #82 on: June 14, 2015, 12:58:28 PM »
Narcissism, the perennial temptation to make God in your image, for spergs. By the way, I'm a sperg, though not diagnosed. Nowadays that just means that while I understand your social cues, I don't necessarily understand the reason behind a particular cue. So I often hang back and am twice as careful as a normal person about what I say. While social stuff comes effortlessly to the extroverted, for me it's a skill to learn by trial and error like practicing a musical instrument. It's hell to grow up with or live with when you don't know what the real issue is. You get blamed a lot, because otherwise you're often very smart, and articulate, so adults think you're misbehaving on purpose. These days, problems are rarer and are ambiguous in that they happen to normal people too (saying the wrong thing, losing one's temper). Understanding the issue is great: thanks to that, I can live on my own, hold down a job, and date. Unfortunately there's still a stigma to these problems (why I was never given help as a kid), so looking back, I wouldn't have gone public about it, and rarely do now. But at least one person's been helped by knowing about me, so it's worth it.
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #83 on: June 14, 2015, 01:30:55 PM »
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #84 on: June 14, 2015, 02:21:32 PM »


Wow. Much heresy, Arianism (Nestorianism, Monophysitism, Eutyches, Martin Luther, John Wesley, the Council of Florence, icons), words.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #85 on: June 14, 2015, 02:22:56 PM »
Anyway, assuming for the sake of argument that Christ's humanity was pre-lapsarian, the question remains as to whether that would actually preclude Him from having had Aspergers.

If Aspergers is defined as a disorder/disease, then obviously He couldn't have had it under the pre-lapsarian schema. But what if Aspergers is considered simply a different way in which one's brain might be wired? Yes, it can cause difficulty in understanding neurotypicals (and vice versa), but basic differences in people's personalities can also lead to clashes with others and misunderstandings. Are personality differences between people therefore a result of the Fall?

And welcome to the "cure culture" debate that has been raging first in the deaf community and now in the autism community for decades.  Though it may be better to ask if ASD IS a disorder.  Certainly we can define it as such but that doesn't mean, when it comes to God's deliberate actions vs effects of the fall, that it actually IS one.

Yeah. Interesting you brought up deafness, something Jesus actually cured, too.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #86 on: June 14, 2015, 02:42:34 PM »
Asperger's can have its strengths, such as savant talents, but take it from me, it's a disorder. Of course Jesus didn't have it: pre-lapsarian humanity, in ordinary terms, a man like us in all things but sin, sin and disability not being part of God's original design for man. Put another way, Asperger's is a possible bug, not a feature.
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #87 on: June 14, 2015, 02:52:21 PM »
Asperger's can have its strengths, such as savant talents, but take it from me, it's a disorder.

And why should we take it from you?

I'm acquainted with some aspies who would take great exception to your statement and with good reason.
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #88 on: June 14, 2015, 03:20:12 PM »
Because I live with it and accept the fact that in many ways normal society is objective reality we have to adjust to. I'm not buying into identity politics ("gimme"); there is no "aspie community." It's just to ask normal people to try to meet us halfway but we have to do the same; otherwise we are the selfish children normal people often take us to be.
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #89 on: June 14, 2015, 06:52:01 PM »
Because I live with it and accept the fact that in many ways normal society is objective reality we have to adjust to.

It is not. To a person from a collectivistic society (especially if we could meet one from the ancient world), many things about the way we live life in the West are strange. They('d) find us selfish, overly emotional, navel-gazing, disrespectful to our elders, etc.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #90 on: June 14, 2015, 07:15:32 PM »
Because I live with it and accept the fact that in many ways normal society is objective reality we have to adjust to.

It is not. To a person from a collectivistic society (especially if we could meet one from the ancient world), many things about the way we live life in the West are strange. They('d) find us selfish, overly emotional, navel-gazing, disrespectful to our elders, etc.

And they're right.
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #91 on: June 14, 2015, 07:45:04 PM »
I think Asperger's might be culture-bound in the sense that a person who had the exact same traits and grew up in another culture might fit in perfectly, perhaps even better, than what Americans would call a neurotypical.

People like us stand out in America precisely because American culture values the very things that don't come naturally to us, while devaluing the things that do. American religion (Protestantism, especially of the revivalist/emotionalistic variety) also seems to be uniquely ill-suited to people on the spectrum.

This cartoon by Thomas Nast seems to exemplify the American worldview. Notice how the "nerd" is characterized negatively and the brawny boxer is held up as the ideal man.



But in another country, the shoe might end up on the other foot.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2015, 07:47:32 PM by Minnesotan »
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #92 on: June 14, 2015, 08:23:20 PM »
AS is real but you're right, Minnesotan. Thank you.
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Re: Is it Possible Our Lord Had Aspergers Syndrome?
« Reply #93 on: June 14, 2015, 08:31:33 PM »
American religion (Protestantism, especially of the revivalist/emotionalistic variety) also seems to be uniquely ill-suited to people on the spectrum.

Me five years ago on religion and being on the spectrum. I've rarely met other spergs I've known of; only one I suspect has it too is a traditional Catholic. Actually most such I've seen or met, whom I knew were on the spectrum (at a support-group meeting), were angry goth teenagers or others who had no use for religion, actually a lot like Northern mainstream America now.
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