Author Topic: Jan Hus  (Read 5560 times)

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Offline Rhinosaur

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Jan Hus
« on: June 12, 2015, 01:48:22 AM »
There's the discussion of John Wycliffe, so I've decided to bring up Jan Hus as well.  While Protestants very much identify with him, I've read that some Orthodox do consider him to be an unofficial saint.  What is your take?

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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2015, 01:49:57 AM »
There's the discussion of John Wycliffe, so I've decided to bring up Jan Hus as well.  While Protestants very much identify with him, I've read that some Orthodox do consider him to be an unofficial saint.  What is your take?
What can you tell us about him?
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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2015, 02:00:47 AM »
From what I've read, I don't see anything objectionable in his teachings.  There were none of the extremes found in Protestantism, and from what I can tell, their man goals were pretty much simply to cut back on the excesses and worldliness of the Catholic Church.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2015, 02:40:07 AM »
A lot of it was gone over in this thread http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,2381.msg26091.html#msg26091

Apparently St. Nikolai Velimirovic thought Hus was a Saint. On the other hand, I've also seen him accused of being a Donatist and of teaching Wycliffe's heresy of impanation. I'm not sure if those charges have ever been disproved.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 02:40:43 AM by Volnutt »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2015, 03:14:16 AM »
A lot of it was gone over in this thread http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,2381.msg26091.html#msg26091

Apparently St. Nikolai Velimirovic thought Hus was a Saint. On the other hand, I've also seen him accused of being a Donatist and of teaching Wycliffe's heresy of impanation. I'm not sure if those charges have ever been disproved.
Have they ever been proved?
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2015, 03:47:57 AM »
A lot of it was gone over in this thread http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,2381.msg26091.html#msg26091

Apparently St. Nikolai Velimirovic thought Hus was a Saint. On the other hand, I've also seen him accused of being a Donatist and of teaching Wycliffe's heresy of impanation. I'm not sure if those charges have ever been disproved.
Have they ever been proved?

I'm not sure.
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Offline wgw

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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2015, 04:54:12 AM »
I myself support the cause for Jan Hus being glorified without reservation.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 05:17:21 AM by wgw »
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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2015, 05:10:27 AM »
I myself support the cause for Jan Hus being glorifoed without reservation.

Was he ever baptized or chrismated into the Orthodox Church, or martyred for the Church's sake? If not, then he cannot be considered for Orthodox sainthood.
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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2015, 05:57:20 AM »
I believe the Hussites observed the proceedings at Florence with interest and distributed tracts employing the Orthodox arguments on certain issues (eg communion in both kinds).
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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2015, 06:51:25 AM »
I believe the Hussites observed the proceedings at Florence with interest and distributed tracts employing the Orthodox arguments on certain issues (eg communion in both kinds).

Do you have a source on that?  If so that is very interesting indeed.
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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2015, 07:19:00 AM »
Christopher, Archbishop of Prague and Metropolitan of the Czech and Slovakian lands talks about Jan Hus. Apparently he is considered to have been a martyr for Orthodoxy's sake by the Orthodox people over there.
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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2015, 07:40:19 AM »
So that alone IMO anould be enough to regard him as glorified; if he died for Orthodoxy, he received the Baptism of Blood. Thrilling to see the Metropolitan say that!

When one considers we glorified a Nestorian bishop primarily for the eloquence, brilliance and theological depth of his mystical writings (I refer of course to St. Isaac the Syrian, who was certainly a reluctant bishop, and most likely a de jure member, of what we now refer to as the Assyrian Church of the East, who may or may not have been a bona fode Nestorian; I would guess not, but he was certainly a bishop in what people uses to like to call "The Nestorian Church", and he managed to be glorofied by them, as well as the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, the last saint as far as I am aware who enjoys universal recognition across all of the Apostolic churches), how much more can we glorify someone whose blood was shed for the sake of Orthodoxy?
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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2015, 09:38:28 AM »
I myself support the cause for Jan Hus being glorified without reservation.

Well, I guess then because of this, the case is closed and we should start asking for his intercessions as a saint.
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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2015, 09:43:47 AM »

When one considers we glorified a Nestorian bishop primarily for the eloquence, brilliance and theological depth of his mystical writings (I refer of course to St. Isaac the Syrian, who was certainly a reluctant bishop, and most likely a de jure member, of what we now refer to as the Assyrian Church of the East, who may or may not have been a bona fode Nestorian; I would guess not, but he was certainly a bishop in what people uses to like to call "The Nestorian Church", and he managed to be glorofied by them, as well as the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, the last saint as far as I am aware who enjoys universal recognition across all of the Apostolic churches), how much more can we glorify someone whose blood was shed for the sake of Orthodoxy?

See this:http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2014/10/abba-isaac-syrian-unjustly-accused.html

It refutes the old conjecture that St. Isaac was Nestorian.
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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2015, 09:44:27 AM »
I myself support the cause for Jan Hus being glorifoed without reservation.

Was he ever baptized or chrismated into the Orthodox Church, or martyred for the Church's sake? If not, then he cannot be considered for Orthodox sainthood.

+1
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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2015, 09:50:40 AM »

When one considers we glorified a Nestorian bishop primarily for the eloquence, brilliance and theological depth of his mystical writings (I refer of course to St. Isaac the Syrian, who was certainly a reluctant bishop, and most likely a de jure member, of what we now refer to as the Assyrian Church of the East, who may or may not have been a bona fode Nestorian; I would guess not, but he was certainly a bishop in what people uses to like to call "The Nestorian Church", and he managed to be glorofied by them, as well as the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, the last saint as far as I am aware who enjoys universal recognition across all of the Apostolic churches), how much more can we glorify someone whose blood was shed for the sake of Orthodoxy?

See this:http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2014/10/abba-isaac-syrian-unjustly-accused.html

It refutes the old conjecture that St. Isaac was Nestorian.

It refutes nothing. I expected something better from a classical philologist like you.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 09:51:02 AM by Cyrillic »

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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2015, 10:03:46 AM »
I believe the Hussites observed the proceedings at Florence with interest and distributed tracts employing the Orthodox arguments on certain issues (eg communion in both kinds).

I'm not sure where I read that. The Hussites did demand that Orthodox be present at the council of Constance. It is known also that the Hussites (or at least some of them) sent a delegate to Constantinople to seek a union with the Orthodox Church. The Hussite delegate (known as Constantine Anglicus) was received into the church but the fall of Constantinople prevented further reunion.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2015, 10:28:13 AM »
I myself support the cause for Jan Hus being glorified without reservation.
Because you liked the wikipedia article on him or is there more substantive basis for your cause du jour?
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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2015, 10:42:21 AM »
FWIW, an interview with Met. Christopher from a few years back: http://journeytoorthodoxy.com/2011/11/19/jan-hus-jerome-of-prague-and-orthodoxy-in-czechia-slovakia/

Quote
—It was precisely of Orthodoxy that they [Jan Hus and Jerome of Prague]  were accused. This was one of the points of accusation of their heresy. However, they considered themselves Catholics and officially were so. Only at the end of the twentieth century did the Primate of the Roman Catholic Church, John Paul II, express his deep regret over their burning at the stake. But he did not go beyond regret. And they both, Jan Hus and Jerome of Prague, died for the undistorted faith, for the pure faith of Christ—that is, for Orthodoxy. Therefore we are completely justified in canonizing them as saints. This has already been confirmed by the Church of Cyprus and the Greek Church. Other Orthodox Churches also support us.

The last part raised my eyebrows. I wonder if there is anything to corroborate this.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 10:43:16 AM by Iconodule »
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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2015, 11:16:51 AM »

When one considers we glorified a Nestorian bishop primarily for the eloquence, brilliance and theological depth of his mystical writings (I refer of course to St. Isaac the Syrian, who was certainly a reluctant bishop, and most likely a de jure member, of what we now refer to as the Assyrian Church of the East, who may or may not have been a bona fode Nestorian; I would guess not, but he was certainly a bishop in what people uses to like to call "The Nestorian Church", and he managed to be glorofied by them, as well as the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, the last saint as far as I am aware who enjoys universal recognition across all of the Apostolic churches), how much more can we glorify someone whose blood was shed for the sake of Orthodoxy?

See this:http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2014/10/abba-isaac-syrian-unjustly-accused.html

It refutes the old conjecture that St. Isaac was Nestorian.

It refutes nothing. I expected something better from a classical philologist like you.

Its a 6 part series. I only linked to part 4.
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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2015, 11:33:02 AM »

When one considers we glorified a Nestorian bishop primarily for the eloquence, brilliance and theological depth of his mystical writings (I refer of course to St. Isaac the Syrian, who was certainly a reluctant bishop, and most likely a de jure member, of what we now refer to as the Assyrian Church of the East, who may or may not have been a bona fode Nestorian; I would guess not, but he was certainly a bishop in what people uses to like to call "The Nestorian Church", and he managed to be glorofied by them, as well as the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, the last saint as far as I am aware who enjoys universal recognition across all of the Apostolic churches), how much more can we glorify someone whose blood was shed for the sake of Orthodoxy?

See this:http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2014/10/abba-isaac-syrian-unjustly-accused.html

It refutes the old conjecture that St. Isaac was Nestorian.

No, it doesn't alas, but rather runs contrary to the opinions of leading scholars in Syriac Studies, which must be agonizing for the intolerant breed of Orthodox who cannot perceive the closeness of the Assyrians to the Orthodox Church and who also generally despise the Syriac Orthodox (in the event St. Isaac was not "Nestorian", he would have to have been Syriac Orthodox, but an SOC bishop beimg enthroned by Nestorians even against his will is baffling, given that whereas relations between the Church of the East and the Chalcedonians had greatly improved by this point, the SOC and the Nestorians continued to resent each other.  However the word Nestorian must be used loosely, for ever simce Mar Balai this grotesque theology had been waning in the Church of the East.

In fact, by the 13th century, when the "Nestorian" bishop Mar Solomon wrote The Book of the Bee, even in the chapters dealing with the Virgin Birth one cannot find any content that is specifically Nestorian; in fact, the work suggests Miaphysite Christology.  http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/bb/index.htm

But the article hosted on Mystagogy is a black mark on an otherwise excellent blog.  The priest eho authored it dares to accuse Metropolitans Kallistos Ware and Hilarion Alfeyev of misrepresenting who St. Isaac was, argues that St. Isaac cannot have been Nestorian because so many Chalcedonian saints admired him (an arfument which collapses under the weight of Assyrian, Oriental Orthodox and Roman Catholic veneration for him, and which was nothing more than an appeal to authority), attempts to claim there were two different Isaacs, attacking the histiography almost universally accepted by scholars, and then on page fove, launches an all out assault on Professor Sebastian Brock, the world leader in Syriac Studies, for translating a newly discovered manuscript of St. Isaac's, that another scholar arfues advocates Apokatastasis (to which I would say, so what?  St. Gregory of Nyassa believed in it; as Metropolitan Kallistos Ware has said, one should not believe that all must be saved, but it is legitimate to hope that all may be saved).  So basically the pre-eminent expert on Syriac literarure and theology gets tossed in the rubbish bin because the author of a blog article doesnt like that another scholar, Wacław Hryniewicz, interpreted it.

Then things get even more unpleasant; shocking ad hominems are hurled ahainst Metropolitan Kallistos Ware and Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev, and in closimg we are asked to reject modern academic scholarship and archaeological evidence on St. Isaac based purely on the fact that it contradicts the author's interpretation of Holy Tradition, and because of an alleged mystical experience of Elder Paisios, which cannot be verified.  The whole thing reads like a defense of Young Earth Creationism, and its too bad, because there is a lot of interesting material on Mystagogy, and unfortunately, finding it requires separating the proverbial wheat from the chaff.

However, I interpret Orthodoxy by the teachings of Metropolitans Kallistos and Hilarion, who are beilliant, loving men (Metropolitan Hilarion is also a first rate composer).  Thus, my view stands: we venerate a Nestorian bishop because of his beautiful and eloquent theological literature.  Thus, I see no reason why we should not venerate two men who in the words of the primate of the Czech and Slovak Church, died for Orthodoxy, and thus as martyrs received the baptism of blood.
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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2015, 11:34:48 AM »
for the intolerant breed of Orthodox who cannot perceive the closeness of the Assyrians to the Orthodox Church

Close relative to what? Shintos? Hindus?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 11:35:25 AM by Cyrillic »

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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2015, 11:41:07 AM »
I myself support the cause for Jan Hus being glorified without reservation.
Because you liked the wikipedia article on him or is there more substantive basis for your cause du jour?

I admired Jan Hus since reading of him in the biased Lutheran parochial education I received.  But whereas most of the Protestants they mentioned failed to stir the depths of my sou, but remained passing memories, like Wycliffe, Melancthon and Zwingli, in the case of Jan Hus I always found myself respecting him.  And rhis respect did not go away as I joined the Orthodox Church and began researching the fascinating connections between suppressed Czech Orthodoxy, and the Utraquists, Hussites and Moravians, and the latter's extensive impact on John Wesley, who of the major Protestant reformers came closest to Orthodoxy.

And as far as I am concerned, the writings of the Czech primates are more than enough justification for me to privately venerate him.  Which I will do until such time as my OO father-confessor or bishop tell me not to, something I consider unlikely.
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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2015, 11:44:16 AM »
And as far as I am concerned, the writings of the Czech primates are more than enough justification for me to privately venerate him.  Which I will do until such time as my OO father-confessor or bishop tell me not to, something I consider unlikely.

Do not presume on such a matter. Ask first. Then please let us know what his answer was.
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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2015, 11:47:56 AM »

When one considers we glorified a Nestorian bishop primarily for the eloquence, brilliance and theological depth of his mystical writings (I refer of course to St. Isaac the Syrian, who was certainly a reluctant bishop, and most likely a de jure member, of what we now refer to as the Assyrian Church of the East, who may or may not have been a bona fode Nestorian; I would guess not, but he was certainly a bishop in what people uses to like to call "The Nestorian Church", and he managed to be glorofied by them, as well as the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, the last saint as far as I am aware who enjoys universal recognition across all of the Apostolic churches), how much more can we glorify someone whose blood was shed for the sake of Orthodoxy?

See this:http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2014/10/abba-isaac-syrian-unjustly-accused.html

It refutes the old conjecture that St. Isaac was Nestorian.

It refutes nothing. I expected something better from a classical philologist like you.

Its a 6 part series. I only linked to part 4.

The entire series is garbage. One of the stupider things which have gone up on Mystagogy for sure.
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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2015, 11:54:07 AM »
for the intolerant breed of Orthodox who cannot perceive the closeness of the Assyrians to the Orthodox Church

Close relative to what? Shintos? Hindus?

The Assyrian Church of the East is extremely close to the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Church in theology, liturgy, and devotional,praxis, closer I daresay than any other church, even the continuing Anglo Catholic jurisdictions which I think in many cases are functionally Orthodox.  The difference between an Assyrian Qurbana Qadisha or Raza and a Syriac Orthodox Qurbono Qadisho, and an Antiochian Divine Liturgy held in Syria or Lebanon, are in each case small, so there is a direct continuum between us and them.  The only sticking point really in ecumenical relations seems to be what to do about Nestorius, but like Metropolitan Ware, I love the Assyrian Church.
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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2015, 11:58:31 AM »

When one considers we glorified a Nestorian bishop primarily for the eloquence, brilliance and theological depth of his mystical writings (I refer of course to St. Isaac the Syrian, who was certainly a reluctant bishop, and most likely a de jure member, of what we now refer to as the Assyrian Church of the East, who may or may not have been a bona fode Nestorian; I would guess not, but he was certainly a bishop in what people uses to like to call "The Nestorian Church", and he managed to be glorofied by them, as well as the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, the last saint as far as I am aware who enjoys universal recognition across all of the Apostolic churches), how much more can we glorify someone whose blood was shed for the sake of Orthodoxy?

See this:http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2014/10/abba-isaac-syrian-unjustly-accused.html

It refutes the old conjecture that St. Isaac was Nestorian.

It refutes nothing. I expected something better from a classical philologist like you.

Its a 6 part series. I only linked to part 4.

The entire series is garbage. One of the stupider things which have gone up on Mystagogy for sure.

Indeed.  Do you know the jurisdiction of the Priest who wrote it?
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2015, 12:03:50 PM »
Indeed.  Do you know the jurisdiction of the Priest who wrote it?

I assume he's in the Church of Greece. You know you're in for buffoonery when the first sentence begins, "The complete and utter lack of uncreated grace in the West..."
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 12:18:33 PM by Iconodule »
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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2015, 12:07:56 PM »
for the intolerant breed of Orthodox who cannot perceive the closeness of the Assyrians to the Orthodox Church

Close relative to what? Shintos? Hindus?

The Assyrian Church of the East is extremely close to the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Church in theology, liturgy, and devotional,praxis, closer I daresay than any other church, even the continuing Anglo Catholic jurisdictions which I think in many cases are functionally Orthodox.  The difference between an Assyrian Qurbana Qadisha or Raza and a Syriac Orthodox Qurbono Qadisho, and an Antiochian Divine Liturgy held in Syria or Lebanon, are in each case small, so there is a direct continuum between us and them.  The only sticking point really in ecumenical relations seems to be what to do about Nestorius, but like Metropolitan Ware, I love the Assyrian Church.

The Assyrian christological language is extremely objectionable. At least the OO can point to St. Cyril for their sometimes ambiguous terminology, but this is not the case for the Assyrians, who take their christological terminology and theology from Theodore of Mopsuestia and Diodore of Tarsus - full-blown heresiarchs for whom there is no excuse, and who, nota bene, are venerated in the Assyrian liturgy.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 12:11:05 PM by Cyrillic »

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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2015, 12:18:02 PM »
Indeed.  Do you know the jurisdiction of the Priest who wrote it?

I assume he's in the Church of Greece. You know you're in for buffoonery when the first sentence begins, "The complete and utter lack of created grace in the West..."

Of created grace?  I thought we regarded that as a heresy.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2015, 12:18:50 PM »
Sorry, I misquoted. It's "uncreated..."
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2015, 12:48:08 PM »
And as far as I am concerned, the writings of the Czech primates are more than enough justification for me to privately venerate him.  Which I will do until such time as my OO father-confessor or bishop tell me not to, something I consider unlikely.

There is very little reason in venerating those outside of your own communion. It can only lead to trouble, confusion and, for those watching, incredulity (such as Eastern Catholics venerating St. Mark of Ephesus). Aren't there hundreds, nay thousands, of saints in the OOC for you to venerate? "Because it feels right" is a very poor reason to venerate those who died outside of your Church.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 12:48:20 PM by Cyrillic »

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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2015, 01:41:07 PM »

When one considers we glorified a Nestorian bishop primarily for the eloquence, brilliance and theological depth of his mystical writings (I refer of course to St. Isaac the Syrian, who was certainly a reluctant bishop, and most likely a de jure member, of what we now refer to as the Assyrian Church of the East, who may or may not have been a bona fode Nestorian; I would guess not, but he was certainly a bishop in what people uses to like to call "The Nestorian Church", and he managed to be glorofied by them, as well as the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, the last saint as far as I am aware who enjoys universal recognition across all of the Apostolic churches), how much more can we glorify someone whose blood was shed for the sake of Orthodoxy?

See this:http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2014/10/abba-isaac-syrian-unjustly-accused.html

It refutes the old conjecture that St. Isaac was Nestorian.

It refutes nothing. I expected something better from a classical philologist like you.

Its a 6 part series. I only linked to part 4.

The entire series is garbage. One of the stupider things which have gone up on Mystagogy for sure.

Sanidopoulos posts some great stuff on his blog, but every so often he posts stupidity.  I haven't read this particular series, but last fall he posted some series of articles by a Church of Greece priest about the Liturgy of St James, and it's atrocious in every way.  I'm not sure if he posts these things because he actually believes and supports them or if he's just trying to share alternative views or increase the amount of Orthodox stuff available online in English or what, but it's lamentable if people take this stuff seriously because a lot of the other stuff there is dependable.   
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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2015, 02:43:04 PM »
I myself support the cause for Jan Hus being glorified without reservation.
Because you liked the wikipedia article on him or is there more substantive basis for your cause du jour?

and the latter's extensive impact on John Wesley, who of the major Protestant reformers came closest to Orthodoxy.



Really?  Oh, do tell how.
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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2015, 06:24:45 AM »
And as far as I am concerned, the writings of the Czech primates are more than enough justification for me to privately venerate him.  Which I will do until such time as my OO father-confessor or bishop tell me not to, something I consider unlikely.

There is very little reason in venerating those outside of your own communion. It can only lead to trouble, confusion and, for those watching, incredulity (such as Eastern Catholics venerating St. Mark of Ephesus). Aren't there hundreds, nay thousands, of saints in the OOC for you to venerate? "Because it feels right" is a very poor reason to venerate those who died outside of your Church.

There is only One Church, and the saints are imperfect; I could come up with a list of good reasons to venerate St. Leo I, and could venerate St. Euphemius unconditionally, despite the tragic misunderstanding at Chalcedon.  The Eastern Catholic veneration of St. Mark of Ephesus is a huge step forward in the healing process,and is appropriate to the ecumenical relationship between the EO and RC of conditional rapproachement with restoration of communion earnestly desired at some point in the future when the remaining differences can be overcome and the deep resentment of the Romans in places like Cyprus put to bed. I have no qualms coming out of the ecclesiological closet as a flamboyant ecumenist.  :P
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 06:25:03 AM by wgw »
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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2015, 07:41:58 AM »
for the intolerant breed of Orthodox who cannot perceive the closeness of the Assyrians to the Orthodox Church

Close relative to what? Shintos? Hindus?

The Assyrian Church of the East is extremely close to the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Church in theology, liturgy, and devotional,praxis, closer I daresay than any other church, even the continuing Anglo Catholic jurisdictions which I think in many cases are functionally Orthodox.  The difference between an Assyrian Qurbana Qadisha or Raza and a Syriac Orthodox Qurbono Qadisho, and an Antiochian Divine Liturgy held in Syria or Lebanon, are in each case small, so there is a direct continuum between us and them.  The only sticking point really in ecumenical relations seems to be what to do about Nestorius, but like Metropolitan Ware, I love the Assyrian Church.

The Assyrian christological language is extremely objectionable. At least the OO can point to St. Cyril for their sometimes ambiguous terminology, but this is not the case for the Assyrians, who take their christological terminology and theology from Theodore of Mopsuestia and Diodore of Tarsus - full-blown heresiarchs for whom there is no excuse, and who, nota bene, are venerated in the Assyrian liturgy.

To avoid going off topic, I have replied here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,64593.new.html#new

I myself support the cause for Jan Hus being glorified without reservation.
Because you liked the wikipedia article on him or is there more substantive basis for your cause du jour?

and the latter's extensive impact on John Wesley, who of the major Protestant reformers came closest to Orthodoxy.



Really?  Oh, do tell how.

Simply, that Wesley's teaching on Entire Sanctification is compatible with, and very possibly derived from, our doctrine of Theosis; Wesley also had a high Trinitarian theology which the Methodists had discarded by the 1830s, and stressed the importance of weekly reception of the Eucharist; his redacted version of the BCP eliminated the Ante Communion service entirely, but the Methodists again had largely stopped having weekly communion by the 1830s.  There is a lot more than this, such as the Erasmus of Arcadia incident, but suffice it to say, of the major reformers, aside from Jan Hus, John Wesley is our closest kin.  It should also be remembered that he was rrying to redorm the Church of Anglican, to disposemof the cold, rotten, lukewarm Calvinism that predominated in the 1700s, and replace it with a vibrant, Arminian church that celebrated the Eucharist weekly,  albeit one retaining apostolic succession and a dignified liturgy. 

In the near future I will post a thread on Wesley so you and I may duke it out with regards to him, but at present I am contempt to be the champion of Jan Hus and the Assyrians (and as a byproduct of that, in a restricted capacity, Mar Theodore the Interpreter).
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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2015, 07:55:14 AM »
And as far as I am concerned, the writings of the Czech primates are more than enough justification for me to privately venerate him.  Which I will do until such time as my OO father-confessor or bishop tell me not to, something I consider unlikely.

There is very little reason in venerating those outside of your own communion. It can only lead to trouble, confusion and, for those watching, incredulity (such as Eastern Catholics venerating St. Mark of Ephesus). Aren't there hundreds, nay thousands, of saints in the OOC for you to venerate? "Because it feels right" is a very poor reason to venerate those who died outside of your Church.

There is only One Church, and the saints are imperfect; I could come up with a list of good reasons to venerate St. Leo I, and could venerate St. Euphemius unconditionally, despite the tragic misunderstanding at Chalcedon.  The Eastern Catholic veneration of St. Mark of Ephesus is a huge step forward in the healing process,and is appropriate to the ecumenical relationship between the EO and RC of conditional rapproachement with restoration of communion earnestly desired at some point in the future when the remaining differences can be overcome and the deep resentment of the Romans in places like Cyprus put to bed. I have no qualms coming out of the ecclesiological closet as a flamboyant ecumenist.  :P

Please do ask your priest and bishop what they think about this.

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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2015, 08:10:09 AM »
My priest shares my feelings regarding ecumenism, and I do not actually venerate St. Leo, in accordance with a standing anathema against his person in my communion (at least according to my Coptic volume on Patristics)..  However I would be prepared to venerate him were that anathema lifted. Not horribly excited by the prospect, however; I never read of a Pope named Leo who I liked.
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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2015, 08:13:21 AM »
My priest shares my feelings regarding ecumenism, and I do not actually venerate St. Leo, in accordance with a standing anathema against his person in my communion (at least according to my Coptic volume on Patristics)..  However I would be prepared to venerate him were that anathema lifted. Not horribly excited by the prospect, however; I never read of a Pope named Leo who I liked.

What's of far greater concern is your advocating the veneration as a saint of a protestant who never was part of the OO church, and your advocating the rehabilitation of Theodore of Mopsuestia.
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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2015, 08:32:04 AM »
My priest shares my feelings regarding ecumenism, and I do not actually venerate St. Leo, in accordance with a standing anathema against his person in my communion (at least according to my Coptic volume on Patristics)..  However I would be prepared to venerate him were that anathema lifted. Not horribly excited by the prospect, however; I never read of a Pope named Leo who I liked.

What's of far greater concern is your advocating the veneration as a saint of a protestant who never was part of the OO church, and your advocating the rehabilitation of Theodore of Mopsuestia.
It allows for a greater range of histories and liturgies and vestments and historical texts to fantasize about.
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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #40 on: June 13, 2015, 10:01:40 AM »

When one considers we glorified a Nestorian bishop primarily for the eloquence, brilliance and theological depth of his mystical writings (I refer of course to St. Isaac the Syrian, who was certainly a reluctant bishop, and most likely a de jure member, of what we now refer to as the Assyrian Church of the East, who may or may not have been a bona fode Nestorian; I would guess not, but he was certainly a bishop in what people uses to like to call "The Nestorian Church", and he managed to be glorofied by them, as well as the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, the last saint as far as I am aware who enjoys universal recognition across all of the Apostolic churches), how much more can we glorify someone whose blood was shed for the sake of Orthodoxy?

See this:http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2014/10/abba-isaac-syrian-unjustly-accused.html

It refutes the old conjecture that St. Isaac was Nestorian.
I don't think it was ever in dispute that there was any Nestorian teaching in St Issac's works.  The fact remains he was ordained by a "Nestorian" bishop and was in communion with him.
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Offline wgw

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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #41 on: June 13, 2015, 10:18:22 AM »

When one considers we glorified a Nestorian bishop primarily for the eloquence, brilliance and theological depth of his mystical writings (I refer of course to St. Isaac the Syrian, who was certainly a reluctant bishop, and most likely a de jure member, of what we now refer to as the Assyrian Church of the East, who may or may not have been a bona fode Nestorian; I would guess not, but he was certainly a bishop in what people uses to like to call "The Nestorian Church", and he managed to be glorofied by them, as well as the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, the last saint as far as I am aware who enjoys universal recognition across all of the Apostolic churches), how much more can we glorify someone whose blood was shed for the sake of Orthodoxy?

See this:http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2014/10/abba-isaac-syrian-unjustly-accused.html

It refutes the old conjecture that St. Isaac was Nestorian.
I don't think it was ever in dispute that there was any Nestorian teaching in St Issac's works.  The fact remains he was ordained by a "Nestorian" bishop and was in communion with him.

The article in question attempted to dispute that by bringing up an obscure monk named Isaac who for all we know was illiterate, and attempting to conflate the two.
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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #42 on: June 13, 2015, 11:10:51 AM »
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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #43 on: June 13, 2015, 03:44:17 PM »
so this thread started with Hus (IIRC, I once started a very similar one but with no responce) and ended up with what exactly?
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Re: Jan Hus
« Reply #44 on: June 13, 2015, 06:20:16 PM »
Well, I only want to talk about Jan Hus.  However a segue occurred because some people doubt the veracity of Metropolitans Hilarion and Kallistos. 

Now, on the basis of the Metropolitan of Prague's remarks, I think private devotion to Jan Hus is already warranted.  They have not been officially glorified, but in the Orthodox Church, this does not preclude veneration.   
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