Author Topic: Does coitus unite those who practice it despite marriage?  (Read 974 times)

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Offline Fabio Leite

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Does coitus unite those who practice it despite marriage?
« on: June 10, 2015, 01:28:49 PM »
To continue the digression on this issue from:

Franklin Graham urges Christians to boycott gay-friendly
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,65124.msg1301722/topicseen.html#msg1301722

We think we are so "superior" by thinking that it is the subjective aspect of things that should have priority, but the Scriptures are very clear t
Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, "THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH."
1 Corinthians 6:16

Again, how is this not poetic and allegorical language? Do you know a married couple who has sex 24/7?

Why would they have to have sex 24/7? :)

Well, they wouldn't be one flesh as soon as they stopped doing it, if your interpretation of "one flesh" is true.

There is nothing there that says that they are one just while they are having sex. It's a transformative conditional.

"If you steal, you are a thief". You are a thief even if you are not in the act of stealing itself. Only after repentance and some penaces one can say "he is no longer a thief".

Likewise:
"If  a man has sex with a prostitute, he is united with her."

Unless the man has, after repetance and penaces, stopped being a fornicator, he is still bonded to every single women he has had sex with.
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Does coitus unite those who practice it despite marriage?
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2015, 01:31:57 PM »
Quote
Quote from: Fabio Leite on Today at 02:18:53 PM
Quote
That's why if people found out a couple had had sex out of marriage the corrective action was to make them get married, because they were already somehow united.
No. Just no.

Yes. Just yes.

The practice of forcing people to get married because it was found they had sex is almost ubiquous in history. Lay people talk of it in terms of "honour" but that is an unarticulate lay way of referring to a natural law learned in the Scripture for some and intuitivelly aprehended by others that, once you have had coitus, you are bonded to that person.
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Does coitus unite those who practice it despite marriage?
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2015, 01:33:48 PM »
Quote
Quote from: Fabio Leite on Today at 02:18:53 PM
Quote
That's why if people found out a couple had had sex out of marriage the corrective action was to make them get married, because they were already somehow united.
No. Just no.

Yes. Just yes.

The practice of forcing people to get married because it was found they had sex is almost ubiquous in history. Lay people talk of it in terms of "honour" but that is an unarticulate lay way of referring to a natural law learned in the Scripture for some and intuitivelly aprehended by others that, once you have had coitus, you are bonded to that person.

Unmarried sex brought shame and disapproval of the tribe upon the family. Any sisters the adultress might have had would have been tainted by association and their chances of marrying well would have been damaged by what their sister did. That, and not poorly articulated theology, was the reason of those "shotgun marriages". Men could pretty much screw around with no consequences.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 01:35:00 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Does coitus unite those who practice it despite marriage?
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2015, 01:36:13 PM »
Contemporary depictions of the Virgin Mary as an ideal wife and St. Joseph an ideal husband started appearing in 17th century Spain.

The "Holy Family" had always been the family of the Holy Virgin, St. Anna, St. Joachin and their daughter.

The Virgin Mary is the ideal of the non-married consacrated life, and St. Joseph of the life consacrated to the "Altar" where the Lamb of God was, in that case, the Virgin Mary herself.

The Theotokos is the icon of monastic life, St. Joseph of the priesthood and her life with her parents the icon of lay family life.
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Does coitus unite those who practice it despite marriage?
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2015, 01:38:13 PM »
Contemporary depictions of the Virgin Mary as an ideal wife and St. Joseph an ideal husband started appearing in 17th century Spain.

The "Holy Family" had always been the family of the Holy Virgin, St. Anna, St. Joachin and their daughter.

The Virgin Mary is the ideal of the non-married consacrated life, and St. Joseph of the life consacrated to the "Altar" where the Lamb of God was, in that case, the Virgin Mary herself.

The Theotokos is the icon of monastic life, St. Joseph of the priesthood and her life with her parents the icon of lay family life.

So?

Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Does coitus unite those who practice it despite marriage?
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2015, 01:39:43 PM »
Quote
Quote from: Fabio Leite on Today at 02:18:53 PM
Quote
That's why if people found out a couple had had sex out of marriage the corrective action was to make them get married, because they were already somehow united.
No. Just no.

Yes. Just yes.

The practice of forcing people to get married because it was found they had sex is almost ubiquous in history. Lay people talk of it in terms of "honour" but that is an unarticulate lay way of referring to a natural law learned in the Scripture for some and intuitivelly aprehended by others that, once you have had coitus, you are bonded to that person.

Unmarried sex brought shame and disapproval of the tribe upon the family. Any sisters the adultress might have had would have been tainted by association and their chances of marrying well would have been damaged by what their sister did. That, and not poorly articulated theology, was the reason of those "shotgun marriages". Men could pretty much screw around with no consequences.

To classify as "poetic" everything that goes against our own modern bias is what could be called poorly articulated theology.

Again and again, intercourse is depicted as something that creates a bond. As for the "honor" thing, I dealt with it, in the previous post.
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Does coitus unite those who practice it despite marriage?
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2015, 01:41:34 PM »
Contemporary depictions of the Virgin Mary as an ideal wife and St. Joseph an ideal husband started appearing in 17th century Spain.

The "Holy Family" had always been the family of the Holy Virgin, St. Anna, St. Joachin and their daughter.

The Virgin Mary is the ideal of the non-married consacrated life, and St. Joseph of the life consacrated to the "Altar" where the Lamb of God was, in that case, the Virgin Mary herself.

The Theotokos is the icon of monastic life, St. Joseph of the priesthood and her life with her parents the icon of lay family life.

So?

That is corollary of her not being wed. Had she been wed, she could not be an icon of monastic life. And although she remained a bride, her marriage was never consumated because there was no coitus.
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Does coitus unite those who practice it despite marriage?
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2015, 01:43:22 PM »

To classify as "poetic" everything that goes against our own modern bias is what could be called poorly articulated theology.

How is it modern? How is "become one flesh" not poetical?

Again and again, intercourse is depicted as something that creates a bond.

I don't deny that, just that is theoretically necessary for marriage. An example of this is the Theotokos.

Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Does coitus unite those who practice it despite marriage?
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2015, 01:46:39 PM »
Again and again, intercourse is depicted as something that creates a bond.

I don't deny that, just that is theoretically necessary for marriage. An example of this is the Theotokos.

A lot of the Church Fathers would have been examples as well, right?
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Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Does coitus unite those who practice it despite marriage?
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2015, 02:03:12 PM »

To classify as "poetic" everything that goes against our own modern bias is what could be called poorly articulated theology.

How is it modern? How is "become one flesh" not poetical?


Something analogous  (not identical, but not just metaphorical either)to the bread becoming the Body of Christ and we ourselves becoming His body as well. The bread literally becomes His body and when we, as the body of Christ, sin against our bodies, it's also against His body that we sin.

Quote
Their intercourse accomplishes the joining of their bodies, and they are made one, just as when perfume is mixed with ointment" (St. John Chrysostom, 12th Homily on Colossians)

St. Paul says that a husband should see harm to the body of the wife as harm to his own body because *it is*.




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Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Does coitus unite those who practice it despite marriage?
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2015, 02:05:25 PM »
That is why divorce is a horrible thing. It's like an amputation of a body part. And even when your hand is amputed and implated in another arm, it's still fundamentally your hand that is there.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 02:06:04 PM by Fabio Leite »
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Does coitus unite those who practice it despite marriage?
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2015, 02:07:00 PM »
*wonders how many people in this discussion have any experience with coitus*  :P
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Does coitus unite those who practice it despite marriage?
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2015, 02:10:29 PM »

Quote
Their intercourse accomplishes the joining of their bodies, and they are made one, just as when perfume is mixed with ointment" (St. John Chrysostom, 12th Homily on Colossians)

Interesting. He does seem to imply in that sermon that consummation is necessary for a marriage, but if that's so St. Joseph and the Theotokos weren't really married.

*wonders how many people in this discussion have any experience with coitus*  :P

LOL.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 02:10:54 PM by Cyrillic »

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Re: Does coitus unite those who practice it despite marriage?
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2015, 02:35:10 PM »
The practice of forcing people to get married because it was found they had sex is almost ubiquous in history.

Because nobody else would have damaged goods. A primitive version of 'you break it, you bought it'. ::)
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Offline biro

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Re: Does coitus unite those who practice it despite marriage?
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2015, 02:39:21 PM »
That is why divorce is a horrible thing. It's like an amputation of a body part. And even when your hand is amputed and implated in another arm, it's still fundamentally your hand that is there.

Uh...  ???
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Does coitus unite those who practice it despite marriage?
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2015, 02:41:18 PM »
To continue the digression on this issue from:

Franklin Graham urges Christians to boycott gay-friendly
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,65124.msg1301722/topicseen.html#msg1301722

We think we are so "superior" by thinking that it is the subjective aspect of things that should have priority, but the Scriptures are very clear t
Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, "THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH."
1 Corinthians 6:16

Again, how is this not poetic and allegorical language? Do you know a married couple who has sex 24/7?

Why would they have to have sex 24/7? :)

Well, they wouldn't be one flesh as soon as they stopped doing it, if your interpretation of "one flesh" is true.

There is nothing there that says that they are one just while they are having sex. It's a transformative conditional.

"If you steal, you are a thief". You are a thief even if you are not in the act of stealing itself. Only after repentance and some penaces one can say "he is no longer a thief".

Likewise:
"If  a man has sex with a prostitute, he is united with her."

Unless the man has, after repetance and penaces, stopped being a fornicator, he is still bonded to every single women he has had sex with.
Yeah those would be valid conclusions of a very literalistic reading of St. Paul. Fortunately the church has been quite lax in enforcing such absurdities and is probably even later now ; I imagine the if one went to a priest here in the us in a jurisdiction where some marriage counselling is mandatory quoting st Paul to the effect we slept together so we have to get married priests , trined as they are in more modern disciplines like psychology etc, wouldn't exactly encourage such an approach.
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Does coitus unite those who practice it despite marriage?
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2015, 02:45:26 PM »
That is why divorce is a horrible thing. It's like an amputation of a body part. And even when your hand is amputed and implated in another arm, it's still fundamentally your hand that is there.

Uh...  ???

Is he saying he opposes hand transplants too?
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Offline Theophania

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Re: Does coitus unite those who practice it despite marriage?
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2015, 03:17:37 PM »
I have nothing to contribute except to say that the word "coitus" cracks me up.
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Offline Tikhon29605

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Re: Does coitus unite those who practice it despite marriage?
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2015, 03:38:30 PM »
Every time I heard the word "coitus" it reminds me of the dorky character of Sheldon on the sitcom "The Big Bang."  Its hard for me to keep a straight face whenever I hear the world 'coitus' now.  Sheldon has simply made it too funny.   ;D