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Author Topic: ROCOR to Join Moscow Patriarchate  (Read 17642 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: August 12, 2011, 11:06:30 AM »

IMO, the union of ROCOR and the MP was at a politically inopportune time (undue State influence on the MP).
ROCOR churches in America should have joined to the OCA (One bishop, one city/diocese rule)
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« Reply #91 on: August 12, 2011, 11:20:59 AM »

IMO, the union of ROCOR and the MP was at a politically inopportune time (undue State influence on the MP).
ROCOR churches in America should have joined to the OCA (One bishop, one city/diocese rule)

There would have been too much of an ideological conflict for that to have taken place.
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« Reply #92 on: August 12, 2011, 08:57:08 PM »

IMO, the union of ROCOR and the MP was at a politically inopportune time (undue State influence on the MP).
ROCOR churches in America should have joined to the OCA (One bishop, one city/diocese rule)

Holy resurrected threads, Batman!
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« Reply #93 on: August 12, 2011, 09:00:05 PM »

LOL at "Greek Apologist" for GiC, I'm curious how he became an atheist would be a good story.
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« Reply #94 on: August 12, 2011, 09:30:57 PM »

IMO, the union of ROCOR and the MP was at a politically inopportune time (undue State influence on the MP).
ROCOR churches in America should have joined to the OCA (One bishop, one city/diocese rule)

There would have been too much of an ideological conflict for that to have taken place.

It's true, unfortunately. However, I do hope that the OCA and ROCOR (along with the Patriarchial parishes) eventually unite as one jurisdiction. It's more likely to happen between those three first, all having their origins in the MP. Especially now that the OCA and ROCOR are on much better terms.
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« Reply #95 on: August 12, 2011, 09:32:28 PM »

IMO, the union of ROCOR and the MP was at a politically inopportune time (undue State influence on the MP).
ROCOR churches in America should have joined to the OCA (One bishop, one city/diocese rule)

There would have been too much of an ideological conflict for that to have taken place.

It's true, unfortunately. However, I do hope that the OCA and ROCOR (along with the Patriarchial parishes) eventually unite as one jurisdiction. It's more likely to happen between those three first, all having their origins in the MP. Especially now that the OCA and ROCOR are on much better terms.

I think the OCA was in a mess at that time, and frankly is still in a mess.
Good thing the ROCOR united with the MP.

I too hope that the OCA unites with the ROCOR and thus gains more stability. However, the issue of old vs new calendar might be a drawback.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 09:36:37 PM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #96 on: August 12, 2011, 09:48:23 PM »

IMO, the union of ROCOR and the MP was at a politically inopportune time (undue State influence on the MP).
ROCOR churches in America should have joined to the OCA (One bishop, one city/diocese rule)

There would have been too much of an ideological conflict for that to have taken place.

It's true, unfortunately. However, I do hope that the OCA and ROCOR (along with the Patriarchial parishes) eventually unite as one jurisdiction. It's more likely to happen between those three first, all having their origins in the MP. Especially now that the OCA and ROCOR are on much better terms.

I think the OCA was in a mess at that time, and frankly is still in a mess.
Good thing the ROCOR united with the MP.

I too hope that the OCA unites with the ROCOR and thus gains more stability. However, the issue of old vs new calendar might be a drawback.


Oh, as a proud member of the OCA, I agree we have been and are a mess, and they would help us gain stability. The calendar would be a problem, though, unfortunately.  Sad
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« Reply #97 on: August 12, 2011, 10:03:18 PM »

IMO, the union of ROCOR and the MP was at a politically inopportune time (undue State influence on the MP).
ROCOR churches in America should have joined to the OCA (One bishop, one city/diocese rule)

There would have been too much of an ideological conflict for that to have taken place.

It's true, unfortunately. However, I do hope that the OCA and ROCOR (along with the Patriarchial parishes) eventually unite as one jurisdiction. It's more likely to happen between those three first, all having their origins in the MP. Especially now that the OCA and ROCOR are on much better terms.

I think the OCA was in a mess at that time, and frankly is still in a mess.
Good thing the ROCOR united with the MP.

I too hope that the OCA unites with the ROCOR and thus gains more stability. However, the issue of old vs new calendar might be a drawback.


Oh, as a proud member of the OCA, I agree we have been and are a mess, and they would help us gain stability. The calendar would be a problem, though, unfortunately.  Sad

We must keep this confidential .... some OCA bishops would be upset to hear us voice this opinion. Sad
Didn't this possibility of a reunion of the OCA with the ROCOR and the MP get Met. JONAH in trouble in the first place?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 10:05:05 PM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #98 on: August 12, 2011, 11:52:36 PM »

ROCOR is international; somehow merging with the OCA just doesn't, hypothetically and in retrospect, make sense.
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« Reply #99 on: August 13, 2011, 12:13:59 AM »

IMO, the union of ROCOR and the MP was at a politically inopportune time (undue State influence on the MP).
ROCOR churches in America should have joined to the OCA (One bishop, one city/diocese rule)

There would have been too much of an ideological conflict for that to have taken place.

It's true, unfortunately. However, I do hope that the OCA and ROCOR (along with the Patriarchial parishes) eventually unite as one jurisdiction. It's more likely to happen between those three first, all having their origins in the MP. Especially now that the OCA and ROCOR are on much better terms.

I think the OCA was in a mess at that time, and frankly is still in a mess.
Good thing the ROCOR united with the MP.

I too hope that the OCA unites with the ROCOR and thus gains more stability. However, the issue of old vs new calendar might be a drawback.


Oh, as a proud member of the OCA, I agree we have been and are a mess, and they would help us gain stability. The calendar would be a problem, though, unfortunately.  Sad
Alaska is old calender, though.

ROCOR is international; somehow merging with the OCA just doesn't, hypothetically and in retrospect, make sense.
The churches in the US could all just rebrand as "Russian Orthodox Church, American Archdiocese," or something. Then again, I don't know if the bishops of OCA would want to go back under the MP.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 12:17:22 AM by Volnutt » Logged
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« Reply #100 on: August 13, 2011, 03:14:39 AM »

LOL at "Greek Apologist" for GiC, I'm curious how he became an atheist would be a good story.

This has come up before, but GiC didn't chime in, so fwiw... while GiC, Entscheidungsproblem and I are all quite different, I think we have at least one thing in common: we sincerely tried to pursue Orthodoxy, and realised that it just wasn't working, so we were honest enough to take a step back*. None of us were sitting around reading Dawkins, Hitchens, et al., and then had an "aha!" moment where we suddenly thought Orthodoxy was a delusion or whatever. Rather, we read the Church's literature--the Bible, the Fathers, etc--we did Orthodox things like go to liturgy, an so forth, and we decided that the reality didn't match the picture on the brochure.


*though over the years I have stepped forward, and back, and forward, and back, and...
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« Reply #101 on: August 14, 2011, 03:13:23 AM »

"The calendar would be a problem, though, unfortunately."

I don't see why. It could easily be changed back in the OCA - it's not like our hierarchs haven't made unilateral decisions on such things before!
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« Reply #102 on: August 14, 2011, 03:32:40 AM »

LOL at "Greek Apologist" for GiC, I'm curious how he became an atheist would be a good story.

This has come up before, but GiC didn't chime in, so fwiw... while GiC, Entscheidungsproblem and I are all quite different, I think we have at least one thing in common: we sincerely tried to pursue Orthodoxy, and realised that it just wasn't working, so we were honest enough to take a step back*. None of us were sitting around reading Dawkins, Hitchens, et al., and then had an "aha!" moment where we suddenly thought Orthodoxy was a delusion or whatever. Rather, we read the Church's literature--the Bible, the Fathers, etc--we did Orthodox things like go to liturgy, an so forth, and we decided that the reality didn't match the picture on the brochure.


*though over the years I have stepped forward, and back, and forward, and back, and...

And all three of you are awesome.

. . . *on edge of seat*
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« Reply #103 on: August 14, 2011, 07:37:45 AM »

LOL at "Greek Apologist" for GiC, I'm curious how he became an atheist would be a good story.

This has come up before, but GiC didn't chime in, so fwiw... while GiC, Entscheidungsproblem and I are all quite different, I think we have at least one thing in common: we sincerely tried to pursue Orthodoxy, and realised that it just wasn't working, so we were honest enough to take a step back*. None of us were sitting around reading Dawkins, Hitchens, et al., and then had an "aha!" moment where we suddenly thought Orthodoxy was a delusion or whatever. Rather, we read the Church's literature--the Bible, the Fathers, etc--
off the top of my head I can't recall what entsculdigen's problem was, but Greeky's most definitely and yours perhaps was from reading the canons, the Pedalion, etc.  burn out.  Ecclesiastes 12:12.
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« Reply #104 on: August 14, 2011, 07:49:41 AM »

IMO, the union of ROCOR and the MP was at a politically inopportune time (undue State influence on the MP).
ROCOR churches in America should have joined to the OCA (One bishop, one city/diocese rule)

There would have been too much of an ideological conflict for that to have taken place.

It's true, unfortunately. However, I do hope that the OCA and ROCOR (along with the Patriarchial parishes) eventually unite as one jurisdiction. It's more likely to happen between those three first, all having their origins in the MP. Especially now that the OCA and ROCOR are on much better terms.

I think the OCA was in a mess at that time, and frankly is still in a mess.
Good thing the ROCOR united with the MP.

I too hope that the OCA unites with the ROCOR and thus gains more stability. However, the issue of old vs new calendar might be a drawback.


Oh, as a proud member of the OCA, I agree we have been and are a mess, and they would help us gain stability. The calendar would be a problem, though, unfortunately.  Sad

We must keep this confidential .... some OCA bishops would be upset to hear us voice this opinion. Sad
Didn't this possibility of a reunion of the OCA with the ROCOR and the MP get Met. JONAH in trouble in the first place?
It would be interesting to know the will of Metropolitan Jonah, who is a truly worthy archpastor.  His defence of traditional Christian values and ethics is notable in the whole Orthodox world.  There was a time when people would have thought that ROCOR would never humble herself to come under the omphor of HH Patriarch Kirill, and that the split was irreversible.  Sensible men of God in ROCOR and the MP realised the time had come to ask forgiveness of offences and to come together.  I think that the OCA could do the same, and that it would enrich ROCOR and the MP for its many gifts, just as the MP has been enriched by the fidelity of ROCOR to Slavic tradition and to the faith.
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« Reply #105 on: August 14, 2011, 08:00:17 AM »

IMO, the union of ROCOR and the MP was at a politically inopportune time (undue State influence on the MP).
ROCOR churches in America should have joined to the OCA (One bishop, one city/diocese rule)

There would have been too much of an ideological conflict for that to have taken place.

It's true, unfortunately. However, I do hope that the OCA and ROCOR (along with the Patriarchial parishes) eventually unite as one jurisdiction. It's more likely to happen between those three first, all having their origins in the MP. Especially now that the OCA and ROCOR are on much better terms.

I think the OCA was in a mess at that time, and frankly is still in a mess.
Good thing the ROCOR united with the MP.

I too hope that the OCA unites with the ROCOR and thus gains more stability. However, the issue of old vs new calendar might be a drawback.


Oh, as a proud member of the OCA, I agree we have been and are a mess, and they would help us gain stability. The calendar would be a problem, though, unfortunately.  Sad

We must keep this confidential .... some OCA bishops would be upset to hear us voice this opinion. Sad
Didn't this possibility of a reunion of the OCA with the ROCOR and the MP get Met. JONAH in trouble in the first place?
It would be interesting to know the will of Metropolitan Jonah, who is a truly worthy archpastor.  His defence of traditional Christian values and ethics is notable in the whole Orthodox world.  There was a time when people would have thought that ROCOR would never humble herself to come under the omphor of HH Patriarch Kirill, and that the split was irreversible.  Sensible men of God in ROCOR and the MP realised the time had come to ask forgiveness of offences and to come together.  I think that the OCA could do the same,
It did the same. That's how it became autocephalous.
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« Reply #106 on: August 14, 2011, 08:06:38 AM »

IMO, the union of ROCOR and the MP was at a politically inopportune time (undue State influence on the MP).
ROCOR churches in America should have joined to the OCA (One bishop, one city/diocese rule)
Such autocephaly may well have been premature if history and drama is anything to go by.  The OCA would be enriched returning to the Moscow Patriarchate.  The problems that it is riven with would be much less consequential by being part of a bigger whole.  ROCOR has retained autonomy while remaining an integral part of the Russian Church.  The OCA could retain many of the same elements that it has now, but get a major injection of sanctity and inspiring leadership from the Patriarchate, supported fraternally by ROCOR whose worldwide presence also has for it helped detract from local issues of one country.
There would have been too much of an ideological conflict for that to have taken place.

It's true, unfortunately. However, I do hope that the OCA and ROCOR (along with the Patriarchial parishes) eventually unite as one jurisdiction. It's more likely to happen between those three first, all having their origins in the MP. Especially now that the OCA and ROCOR are on much better terms.

I think the OCA was in a mess at that time, and frankly is still in a mess.
Good thing the ROCOR united with the MP.

I too hope that the OCA unites with the ROCOR and thus gains more stability. However, the issue of old vs new calendar might be a drawback.


Oh, as a proud member of the OCA, I agree we have been and are a mess, and they would help us gain stability. The calendar would be a problem, though, unfortunately.  Sad

We must keep this confidential .... some OCA bishops would be upset to hear us voice this opinion. Sad
Didn't this possibility of a reunion of the OCA with the ROCOR and the MP get Met. JONAH in trouble in the first place?
It would be interesting to know the will of Metropolitan Jonah, who is a truly worthy archpastor.  His defence of traditional Christian values and ethics is notable in the whole Orthodox world.  There was a time when people would have thought that ROCOR would never humble herself to come under the omphor of HH Patriarch Kirill, and that the split was irreversible.  Sensible men of God in ROCOR and the MP realised the time had come to ask forgiveness of offences and to come together.  I think that the OCA could do the same,
It did the same. That's how it became autocephalous.
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« Reply #107 on: August 14, 2011, 08:07:52 AM »

IMO, the union of ROCOR and the MP was at a politically inopportune time (undue State influence on the MP).
ROCOR churches in America should have joined to the OCA (One bishop, one city/diocese rule)
Such autocephaly may well have been premature if history and drama is anything to go by.  The OCA would be enriched returning to the Moscow Patriarchate.  The problems that it is riven with would be much less consequential by being part of a bigger whole.  ROCOR has retained autonomy while remaining an integral part of the Russian Church.  The OCA could retain many of the same elements that it has now, but get a major injection of sanctity and inspiring leadership from the Patriarchate, supported fraternally by ROCOR whose worldwide presence also has for it helped detract from local issues of one country.
There would have been too much of an ideological conflict for that to have taken place.

It's true, unfortunately. However, I do hope that the OCA and ROCOR (along with the Patriarchial parishes) eventually unite as one jurisdiction. It's more likely to happen between those three first, all having their origins in the MP. Especially now that the OCA and ROCOR are on much better terms.

I think the OCA was in a mess at that time, and frankly is still in a mess.
Good thing the ROCOR united with the MP.

I too hope that the OCA unites with the ROCOR and thus gains more stability. However, the issue of old vs new calendar might be a drawback.


Oh, as a proud member of the OCA, I agree we have been and are a mess, and they would help us gain stability. The calendar would be a problem, though, unfortunately.  Sad

We must keep this confidential .... some OCA bishops would be upset to hear us voice this opinion. Sad
Didn't this possibility of a reunion of the OCA with the ROCOR and the MP get Met. JONAH in trouble in the first place?
It would be interesting to know the will of Metropolitan Jonah, who is a truly worthy archpastor.  His defence of traditional Christian values and ethics is notable in the whole Orthodox world.  There was a time when people would have thought that ROCOR would never humble herself to come under the omphor of HH Patriarch Kirill, and that the split was irreversible.  Sensible men of God in ROCOR and the MP realised the time had come to ask forgiveness of offences and to come together.  I think that the OCA could do the same,
It did the same. That's how it became autocephalous.
Was there a comment?
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« Reply #108 on: August 14, 2011, 11:31:00 AM »

Quote
It would be interesting to know the will of Metropolitan Jonah, who is a truly worthy archpastor.  His defence of traditional Christian values and ethics is notable in the whole Orthodox world.  There was a time when people would have thought that ROCOR would never humble herself to come under the omphor of HH Patriarch Kirill, and that the split was irreversible.  Sensible men of God in ROCOR and the MP realised the time had come to ask forgiveness of offences and to come together.  I think that the OCA could do the same, and that it would enrich ROCOR and the MP for its many gifts, just as the MP has been enriched by the fidelity of ROCOR to Slavic tradition and to the faith.

Subdeacon David:
How on earth did you come to this conclusion that the whole Orthodox world thinks Metropolitan Jonah is "notable".  I don't see any evidence that the rest of the OCA does not abide by Orthodoxy.
Maybe you can help me.  By the way please feel free to quote some Russian sources to the world reknown of Metr. Jonah.   I read Russian.
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« Reply #109 on: August 14, 2011, 12:22:21 PM »

Quote
It would be interesting to know the will of Metropolitan Jonah, who is a truly worthy archpastor.  His defence of traditional Christian values and ethics is notable in the whole Orthodox world.  There was a time when people would have thought that ROCOR would never humble herself to come under the omphor of HH Patriarch Kirill, and that the split was irreversible.  Sensible men of God in ROCOR and the MP realised the time had come to ask forgiveness of offences and to come together.  I think that the OCA could do the same, and that it would enrich ROCOR and the MP for its many gifts, just as the MP has been enriched by the fidelity of ROCOR to Slavic tradition and to the faith.

Subdeacon David:
How on earth did you come to this conclusion that the whole Orthodox world thinks Metropolitan Jonah is "notable".  I don't see any evidence that the rest of the OCA does not abide by Orthodoxy.
Maybe you can help me.  By the way please feel free to quote some Russian sources to the world reknown of Metr. Jonah.   I read Russian.

At the risk of sounding 'snarky', he indeed may be 'notable' to all, but not necessarily in a good way.
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« Reply #110 on: August 14, 2011, 02:00:41 PM »

Quote
It would be interesting to know the will of Metropolitan Jonah, who is a truly worthy archpastor.  His defence of traditional Christian values and ethics is notable in the whole Orthodox world.  There was a time when people would have thought that ROCOR would never humble herself to come under the omphor of HH Patriarch Kirill, and that the split was irreversible.  Sensible men of God in ROCOR and the MP realised the time had come to ask forgiveness of offences and to come together.  I think that the OCA could do the same, and that it would enrich ROCOR and the MP for its many gifts, just as the MP has been enriched by the fidelity of ROCOR to Slavic tradition and to the faith.

Subdeacon David:
How on earth did you come to this conclusion that the whole Orthodox world thinks Metropolitan Jonah is "notable".  I don't see any evidence that the rest of the OCA does not abide by Orthodoxy.
Maybe you can help me.  By the way please feel free to quote some Russian sources to the world reknown of Metr. Jonah.   I read Russian.

At the risk of sounding 'snarky', he indeed may be 'notable' to all, but not necessarily in a good way.


I was thinking more in terms of the OCA on the world stage of Orthodoxy.  Let's face it: most Orthodox do not even know of its exsistence in Orthodox countries.  adn even over here the Greek Orthodox Archdioces is the largest jurisdiction in both the USA & Canada.
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« Reply #111 on: August 14, 2011, 02:16:45 PM »

I was thinking more in terms of the OCA on the world stage of Orthodoxy.  Let's face it: most Orthodox do not even know of its exsistence in Orthodox countries.  adn even over here the Greek Orthodox Archdioces is the largest jurisdiction in both the USA & Canada.

Well, no. I'd say much more people know about the OCA than about the GOA.

BTW the GOA does not contain Canada and the largest jurisdiction there is the UCC.
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« Reply #112 on: August 14, 2011, 03:22:24 PM »

BTW the GOA does not contain Canada and the largest jurisdiction there is the UCC.

The UOCC may have the most temples, but I am fairly sure the Greeks have the numbers in terms of people.
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« Reply #113 on: August 14, 2011, 04:22:03 PM »

I still find it incredibly hard to believe that more Greek-Americans (and Greek-Canadians) consistently attend services than members of other jurisdictions in North America...
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« Reply #114 on: August 14, 2011, 04:54:41 PM »

I still find it incredibly hard to believe that more Greek-Americans (and Greek-Canadians) consistently attend services than members of other jurisdictions in North America...

And I found that members of the Greek Orthodox community have a wonderful devotion to the Theotokos as well.
On all of her feast days, the church is packed and the attendance at Paraklesis and the Akathist hymn is excellent.
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« Reply #115 on: August 14, 2011, 05:47:07 PM »

I still find it incredibly hard to believe that more Greek-Americans (and Greek-Canadians) consistently attend services than members of other jurisdictions in North America...
...better than them going to the Episcopalians, Methodists and Presbyterians.
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« Reply #116 on: August 14, 2011, 05:54:21 PM »

"On all of her feast days, the church is packed and the attendance at Paraklesis and the Akathist hymn is excellent."
I'm not arguing that they never go to church - just that parish memberships are inflated compared to who's actually in church most Sundays.

"Better than them going to the Episcopalians, Methodists and Presbyterians."
My impression is that more of them are at Bedside Baptist than any of those denominations ;-), but whatevs...
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« Reply #117 on: August 14, 2011, 05:55:22 PM »

Quote
It would be interesting to know the will of Metropolitan Jonah, who is a truly worthy archpastor.  His defence of traditional Christian values and ethics is notable in the whole Orthodox world.  There was a time when people would have thought that ROCOR would never humble herself to come under the omphor of HH Patriarch Kirill, and that the split was irreversible.  Sensible men of God in ROCOR and the MP realised the time had come to ask forgiveness of offences and to come together.  I think that the OCA could do the same, and that it would enrich ROCOR and the MP for its many gifts, just as the MP has been enriched by the fidelity of ROCOR to Slavic tradition and to the faith.

Subdeacon David:
How on earth did you come to this conclusion that the whole Orthodox world thinks Metropolitan Jonah is "notable".  I don't see any evidence that the rest of the OCA does not abide by Orthodoxy.
Maybe you can help me.  By the way please feel free to quote some Russian sources to the world reknown of Metr. Jonah.   I read Russian.

At the risk of sounding 'snarky', he indeed may be 'notable' to all, but not necessarily in a good way.


I was thinking more in terms of the OCA on the world stage of Orthodoxy.  Let's face it: most Orthodox do not even know of its exsistence in Orthodox countries.  adn even over here the Greek Orthodox Archdioces is the largest jurisdiction in both the USA & Canada.
In Syria at Church bookstores I saw a number of Fr. Hopko's works, Schmemann, Meyendorff and other products of the OCA available, translated into Arabic, and I've seen works in Arabic that reference the same, in Syria and Egypt.  In Romania (the second largest EO Church, after Russia) the OCA was well enough known (the dispute over the Romanian Archdiocese may have a hand in that, but in the 90s, when I was there, it was aid being given to the Church to recover from communism-Biserica Ortodoxa din America:that's how I learned that Latin "in" hadn't survived bare in Romanian.  In Russia, I am told that there is quite a devotion rising to St. Herman of Alaska, and SS. Met. Innocent and Patriarch Tikhon, and with that comes familiarity with the fruit of their work, i.e. the OCA.

It may not be so well known in Greece, but many Greeks are barely aware of any other Orthodox as it is.  Including us who precede Constantinople.
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« Reply #118 on: August 14, 2011, 06:06:52 PM »


It may not be so well known in Greece, but many Greeks are barely aware of any other Orthodox as it is.  Including us who precede Constantinople.

That is so true. My Greek inlaws believe that they are the only Orthodox around and that the Russians are still atheist communists and that the Antiochians are Nestorians. Sheesh.
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« Reply #119 on: August 14, 2011, 06:34:19 PM »

I still find it incredibly hard to believe that more Greek-Americans (and Greek-Canadians) consistently attend services than members of other jurisdictions in North America...

They don't. Actually they're pretty much the worst.

GOA - 23%
OCA - 40%
AOA - 37%
SOC - 22%
ROCOR - 32%

And so forth...

The schismatics (HOCNA) have the best attendance, of course.
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« Reply #120 on: August 15, 2011, 01:57:20 AM »

Quote
It would be interesting to know the will of Metropolitan Jonah, who is a truly worthy archpastor.  His defence of traditional Christian values and ethics is notable in the whole Orthodox world.  There was a time when people would have thought that ROCOR would never humble herself to come under the omphor of HH Patriarch Kirill, and that the split was irreversible.  Sensible men of God in ROCOR and the MP realised the time had come to ask forgiveness of offences and to come together.  I think that the OCA could do the same, and that it would enrich ROCOR and the MP for its many gifts, just as the MP has been enriched by the fidelity of ROCOR to Slavic tradition and to the faith.

Subdeacon David:
How on earth did you come to this conclusion that the whole Orthodox world thinks Metropolitan Jonah is "notable".  I don't see any evidence that the rest of the OCA does not abide by Orthodoxy.
Maybe you can help me.  By the way please feel free to quote some Russian sources to the world reknown of Metr. Jonah.   I read Russian.

  I would like to caution all of you that Met. Jonah is a hierarch of the church and should be treated that way. This is a general warning to everyone to tread carefully & watch what you post & how you post it. 
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« Reply #121 on: August 15, 2011, 07:53:46 AM »

Quote
It would be interesting to know the will of Metropolitan Jonah, who is a truly worthy archpastor.  His defence of traditional Christian values and ethics is notable in the whole Orthodox world.  There was a time when people would have thought that ROCOR would never humble herself to come under the omphor of HH Patriarch Kirill, and that the split was irreversible.  Sensible men of God in ROCOR and the MP realised the time had come to ask forgiveness of offences and to come together.  I think that the OCA could do the same, and that it would enrich ROCOR and the MP for its many gifts, just as the MP has been enriched by the fidelity of ROCOR to Slavic tradition and to the faith.

Subdeacon David:
How on earth did you come to this conclusion that the whole Orthodox world thinks Metropolitan Jonah is "notable".  I don't see any evidence that the rest of the OCA does not abide by Orthodoxy.
Maybe you can help me.  By the way please feel free to quote some Russian sources to the world reknown of Metr. Jonah.   I read Russian.

At the risk of sounding 'snarky', he indeed may be 'notable' to all, but not necessarily in a good way.

His Beatitude Metropolitan Jonah is a man of principle.  Firstly he is the most senior Orthodox bishop in the US to attend right to life rallies, to unequivocally condemn gay marriages.  Secondly as a monastic abbott he sought blessing to create a monastery that observed the Church's Julian Calendar rather than the New/Revised calendar, despite some pretty clear political implications in insisting on the Julian.  Third, he has considered the merits in a prayerful way of the relationship of the OCA to both ROCOR and the Mother Church in Russia, and in both instances he has shown leadership and humility, which has been reciprocated by the First Hierarch of ROCOR and Patriarch.
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« Reply #122 on: August 15, 2011, 07:57:51 AM »

Quote
It would be interesting to know the will of Metropolitan Jonah, who is a truly worthy archpastor.  His defence of traditional Christian values and ethics is notable in the whole Orthodox world.  There was a time when people would have thought that ROCOR would never humble herself to come under the omphor of HH Patriarch Kirill, and that the split was irreversible.  Sensible men of God in ROCOR and the MP realised the time had come to ask forgiveness of offences and to come together.  I think that the OCA could do the same, and that it would enrich ROCOR and the MP for its many gifts, just as the MP has been enriched by the fidelity of ROCOR to Slavic tradition and to the faith.

Subdeacon David:
How on earth did you come to this conclusion that the whole Orthodox world thinks Metropolitan Jonah is "notable".  I don't see any evidence that the rest of the OCA does not abide by Orthodoxy.
Maybe you can help me.  By the way please feel free to quote some Russian sources to the world reknown of Metr. Jonah.   I read Russian.

At the risk of sounding 'snarky', he indeed may be 'notable' to all, but not necessarily in a good way.


I was thinking more in terms of the OCA on the world stage of Orthodoxy.  Let's face it: most Orthodox do not even know of its exsistence in Orthodox countries.  adn even over here the Greek Orthodox Archdioces is the largest jurisdiction in both the USA & Canada.
In Syria at Church bookstores I saw a number of Fr. Hopko's works, Schmemann, Meyendorff and other products of the OCA available, translated into Arabic, and I've seen works in Arabic that reference the same, in Syria and Egypt.  In Romania (the second largest EO Church, after Russia) the OCA was well enough known (the dispute over the Romanian Archdiocese may have a hand in that, but in the 90s, when I was there, it was aid being given to the Church to recover from communism-Biserica Ortodoxa din America:that's how I learned that Latin "in" hadn't survived bare in Romanian.  In Russia, I am told that there is quite a devotion rising to St. Herman of Alaska, and SS. Met. Innocent and Patriarch Tikhon, and with that comes familiarity with the fruit of their work, i.e. the OCA.

It may not be so well known in Greece, but many Greeks are barely aware of any other Orthodox as it is.  Including us who precede Constantinople.
ROCOR has also pushed the merits of Ss Herman of Alaska, Metropolitan Innocent and Patriarch Tikhon because those saints belong as much to ROCOR as they do to the OCA or MP.  One might say that the devotion to the Imperial and New Martyrs in Russia was given impetus by the canonization by ROCOR, followed later by the MP and the OCA.  The fruit of the saints of the Revolution - thousands of hierarchs, priests, monastics and millions of laity belongs to the Moscow Patriarchate, who sheltered them as best they could, and to ROCOR who honoured them first.
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« Reply #123 on: August 15, 2011, 08:19:52 AM »

I don't know Metropolitan Jonah but Subdeacon David said a few things that merit a comment.

First, Metropolitan Jonah was NOT the first or only Orthodox hierarch to be a part of the Right to Life rallies or movements. His predecessor, Metropolitan Herman, first as Bishop and then as Metropolitan established the Orthodox presence at the Washington rallies starting in the mid-1980's. Together with the late Metropolitan Nicholas of ACROD, the two of them were regular participants bringing with them busloads of the faithful each January. Metropolitan Nicholas was there through 2009 when his declining health precluded his participation.

In ACROD, our two most recent hierarchs, the late Bishop John (Martin) and Metropolitan Nicholas have preached about, written annual pastoral messages and steadfastly reminded their flock regarding the Church's position on homosexuality and abortion. Some of you out there act as if this position is new or somehow we Orthodox didn't 'get' it until Metropolitan Jonah appeared on the scene several years ago.
On both our website and in our annual publications, teaching material has been posted and updated going back to my college days in the 1970's on these issues. They are summarized and linked here. http://www.acrod.org/readingroom/ethics

As to the calendar, to many of us it is a non-issue - one way or the other.

Finally, for many of us not within the OCA,  we have been concerned about Metropolitan Jonah since his ill-tempered remarks in Texas given at the start of Great Lent shortly after his election as Metropolitan. While he has taken steps to distance himself from the harshest aspects of that address it is an old saying that deeds speak larger than words and only time will tell.


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« Reply #124 on: August 15, 2011, 08:58:34 AM »

My comments are not a criticism of ACROD or of any other US Orthodox hierarch.  My comments were in the context of 2010-2011, and not in any way critical of responses of earlier Church leaders to such issues.  That ACROD has unequivocally defended Christian marriage etc is laudable.  My own ROCOR has also done so, with much less publicity or fanfare than Metropolitan Jonah.
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« Reply #125 on: August 15, 2011, 09:03:12 AM »

"...despite some pretty clear political implications in insisting on the Julian."

Political? Did the Californian government not like it? Was there something unusual about yet another old style community being established in the Diocese of San Francisco?
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« Reply #126 on: August 15, 2011, 09:53:14 AM »

Quote
It would be interesting to know the will of Metropolitan Jonah, who is a truly worthy archpastor.  His defence of traditional Christian values and ethics is notable in the whole Orthodox world.  There was a time when people would have thought that ROCOR would never humble herself to come under the omphor of HH Patriarch Kirill, and that the split was irreversible.  Sensible men of God in ROCOR and the MP realised the time had come to ask forgiveness of offences and to come together.  I think that the OCA could do the same, and that it would enrich ROCOR and the MP for its many gifts, just as the MP has been enriched by the fidelity of ROCOR to Slavic tradition and to the faith.

Subdeacon David:
How on earth did you come to this conclusion that the whole Orthodox world thinks Metropolitan Jonah is "notable".  I don't see any evidence that the rest of the OCA does not abide by Orthodoxy.
Maybe you can help me.  By the way please feel free to quote some Russian sources to the world reknown of Metr. Jonah.   I read Russian.

At the risk of sounding 'snarky', he indeed may be 'notable' to all, but not necessarily in a good way.

His Beatitude Metropolitan Jonah is a man of principle.  Firstly he is the most senior Orthodox bishop in the US to attend right to life rallies, to unequivocally condemn gay marriages.  Secondly as a monastic abbott he sought blessing to create a monastery that observed the Church's Julian Calendar rather than the New/Revised calendar, despite some pretty clear political implications in insisting on the Julian.  Third, he has considered the merits in a prayerful way of the relationship of the OCA to both ROCOR and the Mother Church in Russia, and in both instances he has shown leadership and humility, which has been reciprocated by the First Hierarch of ROCOR and Patriarch.

I can see how your first example would back up your claim that Metropolitan Jonah is a man of principle (BTW, I also agree with his position on abortion and gay marriages--Orthodoxy 101 that he is publicly confirming). I am not so sure of the second and third examples; they may be more indicative of your desires and predilections than anything else--I don't think that anyone is surprised at your fondness for all things Russian and particularly for the Julian calendar.
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« Reply #127 on: August 15, 2011, 10:18:30 AM »

IMO, the union of ROCOR and the MP was at a politically inopportune time (undue State influence on the MP).
ROCOR churches in America should have joined to the OCA (One bishop, one city/diocese rule)

There would have been too much of an ideological conflict for that to have taken place.

It's true, unfortunately. However, I do hope that the OCA and ROCOR (along with the Patriarchial parishes) eventually unite as one jurisdiction. It's more likely to happen between those three first, all having their origins in the MP. Especially now that the OCA and ROCOR are on much better terms.

Having been in both the OCA and now in ROCOR, let me say this. Rocor needed to regain communion with Moscow to have legitimacy with the OCA. Only after that point could real exchange and interaction between the two begin with the happy addition of Moscow Patriarchal parishes.

On the other hand, the OCA needed to emerge from it's financial scandal in order for Rocor to get any nearer than a 10 foot pole would allow.

Both have now happened. The OCA has a very good man, Met Jonah at the helam now and there is no jurisdictions incombrance now for both (all three) to serve together.

On a local level we now see growing interaction between all three. There have been any number of Liturgies served by Priests from all three Jurisdictions con-celebrating. Parishioners now attended all kinds of special events together.

This sort of bottom up convergence is much healthier than some sort of dictum coming down from the top prematurely IMHO.
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« Reply #128 on: August 15, 2011, 10:24:38 AM »

Btw, are there any liturgical differences between ROCOR and OCA. I guess ROCOR has more Slavonic but is there anything else?
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« Reply #129 on: August 15, 2011, 10:28:56 AM »


... they may be more indicative of your desires and predilections than anything else--I don't think that anyone is surprised at your fondness for all things Russian and particularly for the Julian calendar.


But we might remember that it was the Russian Orthodox Church which was the first Orthodox Church to seriously consider changing to the Gregorian Calendar (at that time there was no thought of a "Revised Julian.")

This topic was on the agenda of the Russian Great Council of 1917.   The Council was cut short by the Revolution and the Calendar topic (as well as deaconesses) had no time for deliberation.

It was 7 years after the Russian Church Council that the pan-Orthodox Synod in Constantinople deliberated on a Calendar change, in 1923.

The Russian Church is by no means irrevocably committed to maintaining the Julian Calendar.
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« Reply #130 on: August 15, 2011, 10:33:29 AM »

"Parishioners now attended all kinds of special events together."

They always did :-). My godmother was a member of an OCA parish and a ROCOR parish for ages and it was never a big deal.
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« Reply #131 on: August 15, 2011, 10:36:11 AM »

I don't know Metropolitan Jonah but Subdeacon David said a few things that merit a comment.

First, Metropolitan Jonah was NOT the first or only Orthodox hierarch to be a part of the Right to Life rallies or movements. His predecessor, Metropolitan Herman, first as Bishop and then as Metropolitan established the Orthodox presence at the Washington rallies starting in the mid-1980's. Together with the late Metropolitan Nicholas of ACROD, the two of them were regular participants bringing with them busloads of the faithful each January. Metropolitan Nicholas was there through 2009 when his declining health precluded his participation.
I could swear that Met. Theodosius was involved in the Right to Life March.  I only made it once, and I wasn't Orthodox at the time.

In ACROD, our two most recent hierarchs, the late Bishop John (Martin) and Metropolitan Nicholas have preached about, written annual pastoral messages and steadfastly reminded their flock regarding the Church's position on homosexuality and abortion. Some of you out there act as if this position is new or somehow we Orthodox didn't 'get' it until Metropolitan Jonah appeared on the scene several years ago.
On both our website and in our annual publications, teaching material has been posted and updated going back to my college days in the 1970's on these issues. They are summarized and linked here. http://www.acrod.org/readingroom/ethics

As to the calendar, to many of us it is a non-issue - one way or the other.
Amen.

Finally, for many of us not within the OCA,  we have been concerned about Metropolitan Jonah since his ill-tempered remarks in Texas given at the start of Great Lent shortly after his election as Metropolitan. While he has taken steps to distance himself from the harshest aspects of that address it is an old saying that deeds speak larger than words and only time will tell.
Given the shot across the bow at Holy Cross, the sudden mad dash to implement the Chambesy accords and the spin being put on them by the Phanar's chief mouthpiece (now Metropolitan of Bursa/Proussa), I thought his remarks were quite tempered given the circumstances.  But then I have that even Arab temperment.
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« Reply #132 on: August 15, 2011, 10:45:21 AM »

/\  Interesting that Bp Tikhon Emeritus Bishop pf San Francisco just wote:

"Hieromonk Ambrose is quite right there, I believe
St. Tikhon, then the head of the Liturgical Commission for the 1917
Council of the Russian Church, has been recorded as not approving ANY 
liturgical measures for the Council  SAVE the calendar change.
After he became Patriarch, the Saint introduced the calendar change
twice by directive, but it failed, largely, it is believed, because many
of the Faithful associated the measure with renovators and foreigners."

http://tinyurl.com/3d74k6o

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« Reply #133 on: August 15, 2011, 10:51:43 AM »

Btw, are there any liturgical differences between ROCOR and OCA. I guess ROCOR has more Slavonic but is there anything else?
The type of Slavonic for one: ROCOR it is Russian/Moscow recension, the OCA Carpatho-Russian.

ROCOR sort of takes as its model Russia as they remember (or nostralgize) it.  The OCA takes an idealized Russia too, but coming at it from what is looked down as provincial practice.  ACROD arose from those who refused to give up their "provincial" practice and be Russified.  I don't know, for instance, if plain Prostopinje chant is heard in ROCOR, but it is heard (and in some areas, regaining popularity) in the OCA.
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« Reply #134 on: August 15, 2011, 11:28:23 AM »

Btw, are there any liturgical differences between ROCOR and OCA. I guess ROCOR has more Slavonic but is there anything else?
The type of Slavonic for one: ROCOR it is Russian/Moscow recension, the OCA Carpatho-Russian.

ROCOR sort of takes as its model Russia as they remember (or nostralgize) it.  The OCA takes an idealized Russia too, but coming at it from what is looked down as provincial practice.  ACROD arose from those who refused to give up their "provincial" practice and be Russified.  I don't know, for instance, if plain Prostopinje chant is heard in ROCOR, but it is heard (and in some areas, regaining popularity) in the OCA.

I think that the main differences stem from the influence of the Paris School theologians on the Metropolia/OCA (and its life in North America) and the strong dislike of ROCOR of any "innovation." Both ROCOR and the OCA had good reasons for the way they developed. Praise God that they are becoming more understanding and accepting of each other's attitudes and practices.
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