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Author Topic: St. Pontius Pilate Day?  (Read 9947 times) Average Rating: 0
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mathetes
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« on: June 26, 2005, 07:41:28 AM »

Leroy Garrett, minister of the Singing Oaks Church of Christ in Denton, Texas, said the following in his essay yesterday about the Apostles' Creed:

"I am writing this on June 25, which happens to be St. Pontius Pilate Day, as celebrated by our brethren in both the Coptic (Egyptian) Orthodox and the Abbysinian Orthodox churches. Both churches elevated him to sainthood and gave him a saint’s day. And on this day I have been writing about him! Pilate, who crucified Christ, a saint! What a concept of the grace of God! And it is one more illustration of how diverse the church is, all around the world. Have a great St. Pontius Pilate Day! It takes some getting used to."

I'd not heard Pontius Pilate called a saint before, and wonder how he came to be canonized.  After all, our Lord "suffered under Pontius Pilate" (Apostle's Creed), and Pilate himself didn't wait around for an answer to his question "What is truth?" ( John 18: 38 ).

How do we know that Pilate ever repented? and what kind of ministry, if any, was he ever involved in?

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« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2005, 08:18:08 AM »

That passage is misleading; it's almost as if they're trying to make it out as if Pontius Pilate was canonized for his very connection with the crucifixion of Christ...unbelievable.

According to Coptic Church tradition, Pilate's wife testified to the Messiahship of Christ, and Pilate eventually repented of his sin and begged forgiveness at the tomb of Christ. He then converted to Christianity and became a closet Christian, and the Romans and Jews then crucified him. They initially crucified him on his own cross; then they took him down and crucified him on the cross of Christ to mock him and imitate the sufferings of Christ. Eventually he was summoned back to Rome where they beheaded him, and he received the crown of martyrdom.

Peace.
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« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2005, 09:06:55 AM »

According to Coptic Church tradition, Pilate's wife testified to the Messiahship of Christ, and Pilate eventually repented of his sin and begged forgiveness at the tomb of Christ. He then converted to Christianity and became a closet Christian, and the Romans and Jews then crucified him. They initially crucified him on his own cross; then they took him down and crucified him on the cross of Christ to mock him and imitate the sufferings of Christ. Eventually he was summoned back to Rome where they beheaded him, and he received the crown of martyrdom.


I thought that I read somewhere about that, ages ago (while I was SDA so I really did not pay much attention to sources), could you provide some link in regard to this.

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« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2005, 04:21:59 PM »

Hmmmm...

I thought this was SOLELY an Ethiopian tradition, not a Coptic one?

God bless.
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« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2005, 12:27:16 AM »

EkhristosAnesti, you said of Leroy Garrett's writing: "That passage is misleading; it's almost as if they're trying to make it out as if Pontius Pilate was canonized for his very connection with the crucifixion of Christ...unbelievable."

To me, Pastor Garrett was stressing God's amazing grace: he was praising God for showing mercy on Pontius Pilate although Pilate had sinned grievously by not using his authority to spare our sinless Lord.  I don't see where Pastor Garrett said Pilate was canonized for being linked to the Crucifixion.

You continued:

Quote
According to Coptic Church tradition, Pilate's wife testified to the Messiahship of Christ, and Pilate eventually repented of his sin and begged forgiveness at the tomb of Christ. He then converted to Christianity and became a closet Christian, and the Romans and Jews then crucified him. They initially crucified him on his own cross; then they took him down and crucified him on the cross of Christ to mock him and imitate the sufferings of Christ. Eventually he was summoned back to Rome where they beheaded him, and he received the crown of martyrdom.

From a 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica, I've read that the details of Pilate's last years are in dispute.  "Eusebius relates ( Hist. eccl. ii. 7 ) -- but three centuries later and on the authority of earlier writers unnamed -- that [ Pilate ] was exiled to Gaul and committed suicide at Vienne."  The encyclopedia adds, though, that Acta Pilati and Epistola Pilati present Pilate and his wife as converts to Christianity.  The encyclopedia says that the Abyssinian Church recognizes Pilate on June 25 and that the Greek Church recognizes his wife on Oct. 27.

Information about some of these things is available at this Bible Probe site:

http://www.bibleprobe.com/pontius_pilate.htm

Before reading Pastor Garrett's article, I hadn't heard that Pilate was considered a Christian convert, let alone a canonized saint.  Now I'm a bit unsure what to think of him; for Eusebius is a respected historian, but the Coptic and Ethiopian Orthodox traditions are old, too.

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« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2008, 02:37:28 PM »

Also thought this was an Ethiopian tradition however I am aware of Copts who also believe it.

Could somebody please clarify the case?

Would anyone be able to point me to an icon of St. Pilate too please?
I can't find any. If you have one saved on your computer you could upload it to a site like photobucket.com and then post its URL by following the instructions on site. Otherwise please send me a message and perhaps you could email it?

Thank you and pray for me please.
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« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2008, 10:45:37 PM »

According to Coptic Church tradition...

I am not too sure what, if at all, I was thinking when I wrote this, but I am not in any sense aware of any source of Coptic Church tradition that tells the story of Pilate's life relayed in my previous post. Maybe I meant to say Ethiopian? I don't know. I'm not even sure what source of Ethiopian Church tradition lies as the basis of this story. I'll have to look into this again when I have the opportunity so I can clarify what the deal is once and for all.
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« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2008, 12:32:24 AM »

Some years ago I when I was visiting St. Antony Monastery in California, some one in our group asked one of the monks if Pilate was a saint in the Coptic Church.  The monk said he had never heard of Pilate being a saint in his Church.

I think the Ethiopian Orthodox commemorate him on June 19.  I got that from a website that may or may not be reliable:

http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/Carter-Pontius_Pilate_Roman_Governor.htm

Our Ethiopian brothers can fill us in on the details and correct any mistakes we've made about their traditions.

With regard to other OO's venerating him, that should not be too remarkable.  Information about saints will spread from one population to another, regardless of whether their Church officially recognizes those saints.  I run my church's bookstore, and some years ago a woman came up to me with an old, worn, out-of-print book.  She asked me if I could find more copies of it so she could give them to her friends.  I looked at the book and realized it was a compilation of stories about Pilate translated into Armenian.  It had the stories of his conversion and beheading.  Of course I couldn't find any currently in print versions of it in Armenian.  But the fact that it had been translated and printed in Armenian showed that the Ethiopian tradition had spread.
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« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2008, 12:15:06 AM »

Bump.

Could our Ethiopian brothers tell us something about their Church's tradition on Pontius Pilate?  It would be nice to hear the "real deal," as opposed to second hand information from non-Ethiopians.   Smiley
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« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2008, 08:04:52 AM »

Some years ago I when I was visiting St. Antony Monastery in California, some one in our group asked one of the monks if Pilate was a saint in the Coptic Church.  The monk said he had never heard of Pilate being a saint in his Church.

I think the Ethiopian Orthodox commemorate him on June 19.  I got that from a website that may or may not be reliable:

http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/Carter-Pontius_Pilate_Roman_Governor.htm

Our Ethiopian brothers can fill us in on the details and correct any mistakes we've made about their traditions.

With regard to other OO's venerating him, that should not be too remarkable.  Information about saints will spread from one population to another, regardless of whether their Church officially recognizes those saints.  I run my church's bookstore, and some years ago a woman came up to me with an old, worn, out-of-print book.  She asked me if I could find more copies of it so she could give them to her friends.  I looked at the book and realized it was a compilation of stories about Pilate translated into Armenian.  It had the stories of his conversion and beheading.  Of course I couldn't find any currently in print versions of it in Armenian.  But the fact that it had been translated and printed in Armenian showed that the Ethiopian tradition had spread.

With all due respect to the monk with whom you spoke, there are many monks who are honourable men of simple faith who would not have considered such things. That being said, a Christian of the Coptic Church gave me somewhat of a caution this week for refering to St. Pontius Pilate saying that you'll never hear about him officially outside of the Ethiopian Church. (This somewhat surprised me as I know this person has a personal belief that Pontius Pilate is a saint.)

I would say your link is probably in error as Wiki is unlikely to be wrong about something like this. I've heard before that it's June 25th as well although I'm not sure about which calendar. Could an Ethiopian clarify please?

You wouldn't happen to be able to say the title of that book you mentioned in English please would you? Is it available anywhere at all please?

Thank you.

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« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2008, 06:39:05 PM »

It was an old, out of print book in Armenian.  I can't recall the exact title, but it was something about the beheading of Pilate.  I remember that, because when I tried looking for more copies of it I went to an Armenian book dealer who generally knows everything about what is out there.  When I told him the name of the book he gave me a face that basically said "eeew."   Smiley  He wasn't able to find it.  I truly doubt there are copies of it on sale anywhere.

As far as the date of Pilate's commemoration is concerned, it could be one of those saints days whose date changes a little bit every year.  Like in the Armenian Church St. Symeon the Stylite's feast day this year is on Sept. 22.  Last year it was on Sept. 24.  I have no idea how they calculate these things.

I agree with you that we need lots of input here from one of our Ethiopian posters.
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« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2008, 01:51:29 PM »

Take it you don't know how the Armenian calendar works then?
Do you know what it's called at all? Perhaps we could look it up on Wiki?

Agreed that we need some Ethiopians in here to assist please.

As far as books go all I could find was this novel:

http://www.amazon.ca/Memoirs-Pontius-Pilate-James-Mills/dp/product-description/0345443500

Obviously that's not it.
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« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2010, 12:14:57 AM »

I hate pulling up an old thread, but I think I just found something which may shed light on when the feast day for Pontius Pilate is in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church:

http://www.stmichaeleoc.org/Synaxarium/Senne_25.htm

Quote
On this day also died Pilate, the confessor.  Salutation to Pilate who washed his hands of the Blood of Jesus Christ.

This is listed under the date of July 2, or "Senne 25."  It seems Senne is the name of a month in the Ethiopian calendar.  Perhaps one of our Ethiopian brothers can shed more light on this.

This is from a synaxarium of the Ethiopian Church:

http://www.stmichaeleoc.org/Synaxarium/Archive.htm
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« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2010, 12:33:31 AM »

That passage is misleading; it's almost as if they're trying to make it out as if Pontius Pilate was canonized for his very connection with the crucifixion of Christ...unbelievable.

According to Coptic Church tradition, Pilate's wife testified to the Messiahship of Christ, and Pilate eventually repented of his sin and begged forgiveness at the tomb of Christ. He then converted to Christianity and became a closet Christian, and the Romans and Jews then crucified him. They initially crucified him on his own cross; then they took him down and crucified him on the cross of Christ to mock him and imitate the sufferings of Christ. Eventually he was summoned back to Rome where they beheaded him, and he received the crown of martyrdom.

Peace.


I heard he committed suicide in Gaul and his body became a place demons haunted with storms and had to be moved several times (not joking). Which is the true tradition? Josephus who was probably a "secret believer" said Pilate was pretty bad while a procurator. I believe in the piety of his wife Claudia though since it is supported by the scriptures in part.
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« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2010, 05:45:37 AM »

According to Coptic Church tradition, Pilate's wife testified to the Messiahship of Christ, and Pilate eventually repented of his sin and begged forgiveness at the tomb of Christ. He then converted to Christianity and became a closet Christian, and the Romans and Jews then crucified him. They initially crucified him on his own cross; then they took him down and crucified him on the cross of Christ to mock him and imitate the sufferings of Christ. Eventually he was summoned back to Rome where they beheaded him, and he received the crown of martyrdom.


I thought that I read somewhere about that, ages ago (while I was SDA so I really did not pay much attention to sources), could you provide some link in regard to this.



Pontius Pilate was canonized right?
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« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2010, 10:40:13 AM »

He's a saint in the Ethiopian Church.  Read my 3/7/10 post, above, for his feast day.  Other Churches don't have him as a saint.
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« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2010, 09:29:39 AM »

I was talking to friends in Ethiopia, and I was told that there is a day which recognizes him as a saint. I will find out which day it is and let you know.
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« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2010, 10:04:33 AM »

That passage is misleading; it's almost as if they're trying to make it out as if Pontius Pilate was canonized for his very connection with the crucifixion of Christ...unbelievable.

According to Coptic Church tradition, Pilate's wife testified to the Messiahship of Christ, and Pilate eventually repented of his sin and begged forgiveness at the tomb of Christ. He then converted to Christianity and became a closet Christian, and the Romans and Jews then crucified him. They initially crucified him on his own cross; then they took him down and crucified him on the cross of Christ to mock him and imitate the sufferings of Christ. Eventually he was summoned back to Rome where they beheaded him, and he received the crown of martyrdom.

Peace.


I heard he committed suicide in Gaul and his body became a place demons haunted with storms and had to be moved several times (not joking). Which is the true tradition? Josephus who was probably a "secret believer" said Pilate was pretty bad while a procurator. I believe in the piety of his wife Claudia though since it is supported by the scriptures in part.

That's horrible! Where did you get that? I hope someone could shed light on this.
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« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2010, 11:18:17 PM »

read it in some pre-nicene fragments of dubious origin. You will have to search here:

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Download The Complete Early Church Fathers Collection in WinHelp Format:

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=6EBCFAD9-D3F5-4365-8070-334CD175D4BB

Programmed in WinHelp and Copyright © 1996-2003 Zeitun-eg.org/ Dr. Maged N. Kamel Boulos. All rights reserved.
Download WinHelp support for Windows Vista - older Windows versions have built-in support

sorry for lack of help.
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« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2010, 08:48:35 AM »

I was trying to find the book that tells the whole story of Pontius Pilate. Even though I already have enough church references that indicate that Pontius Pilate has repented and finally died as a Christian martyr, so far, I was not able to obtain the book that relates his complete story.

What is mentioned in our synaxarium (Sene 25; “Sene” is June) is his repentance only. But other books such as the “Miracles of Jesus” and the “Book of the commentary of the 14 anaphora” tell us more. In the “Miracles of Jesus” it is written that Pontius Pilate has witnessed the miracles and the resurrection of Jesus in a letter that he wrote to the king of Rome; and in the “Book of the commentary of the 14 anaphora” it is written how Pontius Pilate repented and how Jesus Christ revealed Himself to him and how Jesus talked to him in that revelation. But these are fragments of the whole story. I will continue to search for the book of the complete story.

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« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2010, 12:11:11 PM »

This is found in the Greek Acts of Peter and Paul and as an appendix to the Gospel of Nicodemus in Latin. The translation is from M. R. James as given in Quasten's Patrology, vol. 1, p. 117.

Pontius Pilate unto Claudius, greeting.

There befell of late a matter which I myself brought to light (or, made trial of): for the Jews through envy have punished themselves and their posterity with fearful judgements of their own fault; for whereas their fathers had promises (al. had announced unto them) that their God would send them out of heaven his holy one who should of right be called their king, and did promise that he would send him upon earth by a virgin; he then (or this God of the Hebrews, then) came when I was governor of Judea, and they beheld him enlightening the blind, cleansing lepers, healing the palsied, driving devils out of men, raising the dead, rebuking the winds, walking upon the waves of the sea dry-shod, and doing many other wonders, and all the people of the Jews calling him the Son of God: the chief priests therefore, moved with envy against him, took him and delivered him unto me and brought against him one false accusation after another, saying that he was a sorcerer and did things contrary to law.

But I, believing that these things were so, having scourged him, delivered him unto their will: and they crucified him, and when he was buried they set guards upon him. But while my soldiers watched him he rose again on the third day: yet so much was the malice of the Jews kindled that they gave money to the soldiers, saying: Say ye that his disciples stole away his body. But they, though they took the money, were not able to keep silence concerning that which had come to pass, for they also have testified that they saw him arisen and that they received money from the Jews. And these things have I reported (unto thy mightiness) for this cause, lest some other should lie unto thee (Lat. lest any lie otherwise) and though shouldest deem right to believe the false tales of the Jews.
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« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2010, 12:17:38 PM »

The Giving Up of Pontius Pilate.

And again the Cæsar set himself to question Pilate; and he orders a captain named Albius to cut off Pilate’s head, saying:  Just as he laid hands upon the just man named Christ, in like manner also shall he fall, and not find safety.

And Pilate, going away to the place, prayed in silence, saying:  Lord, do not destroy me along with the wicked Hebrews, because I would not have laid hands upon Thee, except for the nation of the lawless Jews, because they were exciting rebellion against me.  But Thou knowest that I did it in ignorance.  Do not then destroy me for this my sin; but remember not evil against me, O Lord, and against Thy servant Procla, who is standing with me in this the hour of my death, whom Thou didst appoint to prophesy that Thou shouldest be nailed to the cross.  Do not condemn her also in my sin; but pardon us, and make us to be numbered in the portion of Thy righteous.

And, behold, when Pilate had finished his prayer, there came a voice out of the heaven, saying:  All the generations and families of the nations shall count thee blessed, because under thee have been fulfilled all those things said about me by the prophets; and thou thyself shall be seen as my witness at my second appearing, when I shall judge the twelve tribes of Israel, and those that have not owned my name.  And the prefect struck off the head of Pilate; and, behold, an angel of the Lord received it.  And his wife Procla, seeing the angel coming and receiving his head, being filled with joy herself also, immediately gave up the ghost, and was buried along with her husband.
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« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2010, 09:34:16 AM »

The Giving Up of Pontius Pilate.

And again the Cæsar set himself to question Pilate; and he orders a captain named Albius to cut off Pilate’s head, saying:  Just as he laid hands upon the just man named Christ, in like manner also shall he fall, and not find safety.

And Pilate, going away to the place, prayed in silence, saying:  Lord, do not destroy me along with the wicked Hebrews, because I would not have laid hands upon Thee, except for the nation of the lawless Jews, because they were exciting rebellion against me.  But Thou knowest that I did it in ignorance.  Do not then destroy me for this my sin; but remember not evil against me, O Lord, and against Thy servant Procla, who is standing with me in this the hour of my death, whom Thou didst appoint to prophesy that Thou shouldest be nailed to the cross.  Do not condemn her also in my sin; but pardon us, and make us to be numbered in the portion of Thy righteous.

And, behold, when Pilate had finished his prayer, there came a voice out of the heaven, saying:  All the generations and families of the nations shall count thee blessed, because under thee have been fulfilled all those things said about me by the prophets; and thou thyself shall be seen as my witness at my second appearing, when I shall judge the twelve tribes of Israel, and those that have not owned my name.  And the prefect struck off the head of Pilate; and, behold, an angel of the Lord received it.  And his wife Procla, seeing the angel coming and receiving his head, being filled with joy herself also, immediately gave up the ghost, and was buried along with her husband.


This is shocking! Is this accepted by the Eastern Orthodox Fathers?
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« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2010, 11:19:49 AM »

These are all excerpted from various pseudepigraphical and apocryphal works with varying degrees of Orthodoxy, and/or acceptance.

It is necessary to consider the source and then ascertain whether or not the work is accepted as having any authenticity. I have only provided the texts.

Some of the traditions concerning our Lord and the Theotokos are also taken primarily from such works.

It seems to me that it is necessary to determine, or rather the Church has needed to determine, whether traditions have a currency and a value which is independent of the source in which that tradition has been preserved. The Ehiopian Church has taken these sources and used them in one way. Other Churches have taken other sources and used them in another way.

Father Peter

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« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2010, 05:20:38 AM »

According to Coptic Church tradition...

I am not too sure what, if at all, I was thinking when I wrote this, but I am not in any sense aware of any source of Coptic Church tradition that tells the story of Pilate's life relayed in my previous post. Maybe I meant to say Ethiopian? I don't know. I'm not even sure what source of Ethiopian Church tradition lies as the basis of this story. I'll have to look into this again when I have the opportunity so I can clarify what the deal is once and for all.
In Ethiopian Synxarium, there are some things mentioned about him. Even though I personally did not read anything about him, I was talking to one of the Ethiopian Priests. He told me that he is considered as a martyr. It must be the date that Hiywot mentioned, Sene 25, that commemorates him as a martyr. I think you can also read about pontius Pilate in a book called 'Metsehafe Getsawe'.
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« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2014, 10:26:17 AM »

Sorry for resurrecting an old thread, but this is a very interesting one.

According to Fr Athansius Iskander, the Coptic tradition holds that Pilate committed suicide and is not a saint.
According to Fr Shnork Souin, the Armenian tradition holds that Pilate converted, repented, and was martyred.

The sources are inconsistent of course, but there is good evidence for the likelihood of his salvation in the Gospel accounts.

It is of notable mention, that those accounts supporting the suicide version are of sources within Roman Empire Christianity, and may be subject to the political influences of the time; whereas the two key groups, Ethiopian and Armenian, who support the martyrdom version, had no allegiance or obligation to support Empirical-Christian initiatives.  Key example is the difference in the Armenian Apostles creed and the Nicene-Constantinopolitan creed.

This is a topic which certainly requires a little more research.

In Christ.
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« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2014, 11:35:46 AM »

I'm not sure how true the theory of Pilate's martyrdom is, but I would like it to be true.  I always felt sorry for him, as it seemed he had really no idea what was going on and was genuinely concerned about violent rebellion if the Hebrews didn't get what they wanted.  It seems like his wife wouldn't be likely to let the matter go if she prophesied to Pilate about Christ being a holy man.
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« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2014, 11:57:50 AM »

It is of notable mention, that those accounts supporting the suicide version are of sources within Roman Empire Christianity, and may be subject to the political influences of the time; whereas the two key groups, Ethiopian and Armenian, who support the martyrdom version, had no allegiance or obligation to support Empirical-Christian initiatives.  Key example is the difference in the Armenian Apostles creed and the Nicene-Constantinopolitan creed.

I haven't had my coffee yet, so perhaps that is why I do not see the point you are trying to make here.  Help!  Coffee or further explanation.  Wink
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« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2014, 11:58:21 AM »

I'm not sure how true the theory of Pilate's martyrdom is, but I would like it to be true.  I always felt sorry for him, as it seemed he had really no idea what was going on and was genuinely concerned about violent rebellion if the Hebrews didn't get what they wanted.  It seems like his wife wouldn't be likely to let the matter go if she prophesied to Pilate about Christ being a holy man.

They never do, do they?  Tongue
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« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2014, 12:23:12 PM »

It is of notable mention, that those accounts supporting the suicide version are of sources within Roman Empire Christianity, and may be subject to the political influences of the time; whereas the two key groups, Ethiopian and Armenian, who support the martyrdom version, had no allegiance or obligation to support Empirical-Christian initiatives.  Key example is the difference in the Armenian Apostles creed and the Nicene-Constantinopolitan creed.

I haven't had my coffee yet, so perhaps that is why I do not see the point you are trying to make here.  Help!  Coffee or further explanation.  Wink

It has to do with the Armenians not being influenced or corrupted by the Empire and its politics.  That is why we are The True Church.    Cool
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« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2014, 02:10:24 PM »

It is of notable mention, that those accounts supporting the suicide version are of sources within Roman Empire Christianity, and may be subject to the political influences of the time; whereas the two key groups, Ethiopian and Armenian, who support the martyrdom version, had no allegiance or obligation to support Empirical-Christian initiatives.  Key example is the difference in the Armenian Apostles creed and the Nicene-Constantinopolitan creed.

I haven't had my coffee yet, so perhaps that is why I do not see the point you are trying to make here.  Help!  Coffee or further explanation.  Wink

It has to do with the Armenians not being influenced or corrupted by the Empire and its politics.  That is why we are The True Church.    Cool

I knew there was a reason I enjoyed hanging out with you guys! 
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« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2014, 03:18:12 PM »

My point was that there were some teachings that were regulated by the Emperor for the sake of [political] unity, that did not have the same impact on non-Roman churches.  This particular teaching on Pontius Pilate seems to align with this concept.
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« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2014, 03:34:23 PM »

My point was that there were some teachings that were regulated by the Emperor for the sake of [political] unity, that did not have the same impact on non-Roman churches.  This particular teaching on Pontius Pilate seems to align with this concept.
hmmm...that would seem to put a whole other twist into finding the true Church  Undecided

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« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2014, 04:52:04 PM »

It is of notable mention, that those accounts supporting the suicide version are of sources within Roman Empire Christianity, and may be subject to the political influences of the time; whereas the two key groups, Ethiopian and Armenian, who support the martyrdom version, had no allegiance or obligation to support Empirical-Christian initiatives.  Key example is the difference in the Armenian Apostles creed and the Nicene-Constantinopolitan creed.

I haven't had my coffee yet, so perhaps that is why I do not see the point you are trying to make here.  Help!  Coffee or further explanation.  Wink

It has to do with the Armenians not being influenced or corrupted by the Empire and its politics.  That is why we are The True Church.    Cool

I knew there was a reason I enjoyed hanging out with you guys! 


Sure it isn't just the lahmajoon and khachapuri?
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« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2014, 04:56:23 PM »

It is of notable mention, that those accounts supporting the suicide version are of sources within Roman Empire Christianity, and may be subject to the political influences of the time; whereas the two key groups, Ethiopian and Armenian, who support the martyrdom version, had no allegiance or obligation to support Empirical-Christian initiatives.  Key example is the difference in the Armenian Apostles creed and the Nicene-Constantinopolitan creed.

I haven't had my coffee yet, so perhaps that is why I do not see the point you are trying to make here.  Help!  Coffee or further explanation.  Wink

It has to do with the Armenians not being influenced or corrupted by the Empire and its politics.  That is why we are The True Church.    Cool

I knew there was a reason I enjoyed hanging out with you guys! 


Sure it isn't just the lahmajoon and khachapuri?

I don't eat cheese very much, but since you brought up baked goods, yes, Armenian baked goods and sweets are another reason. 
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« Reply #35 on: June 07, 2014, 05:57:14 PM »

It is of notable mention, that those accounts supporting the suicide version are of sources within Roman Empire Christianity, and may be subject to the political influences of the time; whereas the two key groups, Ethiopian and Armenian, who support the martyrdom version, had no allegiance or obligation to support Empirical-Christian initiatives.  Key example is the difference in the Armenian Apostles creed and the Nicene-Constantinopolitan creed.

I haven't had my coffee yet, so perhaps that is why I do not see the point you are trying to make here.  Help!  Coffee or further explanation.  Wink

It has to do with the Armenians not being influenced or corrupted by the Empire and its politics.  That is why we are The True Church.    Cool

Why isn't there a "like" button for this forum?
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« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2014, 06:23:03 PM »

My point was that there were some teachings that were regulated by the Emperor for the sake of [political] unity, that did not have the same impact on non-Roman churches.  This particular teaching on Pontius Pilate seems to align with this concept.
hmmm...that would seem to put a whole other twist into finding the true Church  Undecided


Well there certainly can't be three "one true churches", but one might argue that there is one true sacred heart of the church that transcends all.
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« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2014, 07:10:11 PM »

My point was that there were some teachings that were regulated by the Emperor for the sake of [political] unity, that did not have the same impact on non-Roman churches.  This particular teaching on Pontius Pilate seems to align with this concept.
hmmm...that would seem to put a whole other twist into finding the true Church  Undecided



Why?  Is Pontius Pilate a dogma, a tenet of faith in the Church?

I'm not sure the Roman Empire has anything to do with Pontius Pilate being not commemorated.  Why would he be condemned in the Roman Empire?
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« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2014, 08:48:44 PM »

My point was that there were some teachings that were regulated by the Emperor for the sake of [political] unity, that did not have the same impact on non-Roman churches.  This particular teaching on Pontius Pilate seems to align with this concept.
hmmm...that would seem to put a whole other twist into finding the true Church  Undecided



Why?  Is Pontius Pilate a dogma, a tenet of faith in the Church?

I'm not sure the Roman Empire has anything to do with Pontius Pilate being not commemorated.  Why would he be condemned in the Roman Empire?
what if the Emperors messed with other dogmas though for political reasons? know what I'm saying?
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« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2014, 08:58:10 PM »

My point was that there were some teachings that were regulated by the Emperor for the sake of [political] unity, that did not have the same impact on non-Roman churches.  This particular teaching on Pontius Pilate seems to align with this concept.
hmmm...that would seem to put a whole other twist into finding the true Church  Undecided



Why?  Is Pontius Pilate a dogma, a tenet of faith in the Church?

I'm not sure the Roman Empire has anything to do with Pontius Pilate being not commemorated.  Why would he be condemned in the Roman Empire?
what if the Emperors messed with other dogmas though for political reasons? know what I'm saying?

Well, we have a precedence.  When the emperors messed up, the fathers told them, "screw you, you heretic".  Then they were chased all over the empire (or beaten up) until the emperor died and the Church praised the Church father who stood the emperor up.

When the emperors got it right, the fathers told them, "You are the awesomest person who does the will of God."
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« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2014, 09:27:40 PM »

My point was that there were some teachings that were regulated by the Emperor for the sake of [political] unity, that did not have the same impact on non-Roman churches.  This particular teaching on Pontius Pilate seems to align with this concept.
hmmm...that would seem to put a whole other twist into finding the true Church  Undecided



Why?  Is Pontius Pilate a dogma, a tenet of faith in the Church?

I'm not sure the Roman Empire has anything to do with Pontius Pilate being not commemorated.  Why would he be condemned in the Roman Empire?
what if the Emperors messed with other dogmas though for political reasons? know what I'm saying?

Well, we have a precedence.  When the emperors messed up, the fathers told them, "screw you, you heretic".  Then they were chased all over the empire (or beaten up) until the emperor died and the Church praised the Church father who stood the emperor up.

When the emperors got it right, the fathers told them, "You are the awesomest person who does the will of God."
Or, we ended up with a Syriac Patriarch of Antioch and a Byzantine Patriarch of Antioch and a Maronite Patriarch of Antioch because emperors would depose one and not all the Church would accept it Roll Eyes Then there's the mess with St. Ignatius and (St.) Photius...I don't think it's as neat as you claim it is.
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« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2014, 11:08:45 PM »

My point was that there were some teachings that were regulated by the Emperor for the sake of [political] unity, that did not have the same impact on non-Roman churches.  This particular teaching on Pontius Pilate seems to align with this concept.
hmmm...that would seem to put a whole other twist into finding the true Church  Undecided



Why?  Is Pontius Pilate a dogma, a tenet of faith in the Church?

I'm not sure the Roman Empire has anything to do with Pontius Pilate being not commemorated.  Why would he be condemned in the Roman Empire?
what if the Emperors messed with other dogmas though for political reasons? know what I'm saying?

Well, we have a precedence.  When the emperors messed up, the fathers told them, "screw you, you heretic".  Then they were chased all over the empire (or beaten up) until the emperor died and the Church praised the Church father who stood the emperor up.

When the emperors got it right, the fathers told them, "You are the awesomest person who does the will of God."
Or, we ended up with a Syriac Patriarch of Antioch and a Byzantine Patriarch of Antioch and a Maronite Patriarch of Antioch because emperors would depose one and not all the Church would accept it Roll Eyes Then there's the mess with St. Ignatius and (St.) Photius...I don't think it's as neat as you claim it is.
no of course it's not. And yet I still boast in The Lord!
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« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2014, 11:10:09 PM »

My point was that there were some teachings that were regulated by the Emperor for the sake of [political] unity, that did not have the same impact on non-Roman churches.  This particular teaching on Pontius Pilate seems to align with this concept.
hmmm...that would seem to put a whole other twist into finding the true Church  Undecided



Why?  Is Pontius Pilate a dogma, a tenet of faith in the Church?

I'm not sure the Roman Empire has anything to do with Pontius Pilate being not commemorated.  Why would he be condemned in the Roman Empire?
what if the Emperors messed with other dogmas though for political reasons? know what I'm saying?

Well, we have a precedence.  When the emperors messed up, the fathers told them, "screw you, you heretic".  Then they were chased all over the empire (or beaten up) until the emperor died and the Church praised the Church father who stood the emperor up.

When the emperors got it right, the fathers told them, "You are the awesomest person who does the will of God."

With all due respect, the fathers were certainly not consistent in this manner.  Of course some fathers more than others.  There was a certain formality in addressing emperors in those days dependent on how much clout one had or how much one wanted to get a doctrine sanctioned by imperial decree.  It is my opinion, that there were a number of events in the church in that period (4th, 5th, and 6th centuries) that had a little more to do with politics than with the true faith.

If Pilate was considered at that time to be a stain on the Empire, considering the grand strategy and the spread of Imperial Christianity, then it might have been more valuable [or strategic] to disparage Pilate.
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« Reply #43 on: June 08, 2014, 12:51:48 AM »

I'm not sure how true the theory of Pilate's martyrdom is, but I would like it to be true.  I always felt sorry for him, as it seemed he had really no idea what was going on and was genuinely concerned about violent rebellion if the Hebrews didn't get what they wanted.  It seems like his wife wouldn't be likely to let the matter go if she prophesied to Pilate about Christ being a holy man.

I am with you on this one. He has always been the Biblical person closest to my heart.
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« Reply #44 on: June 08, 2014, 11:07:54 AM »

Of course there were formalities, of course there were complexities.  But you guys make it seem that "if we don't know whether Pontius Pilate is a saint, then we're doomed! How will we ever know what the true faith is?"

Let me say this first.  I like this discussion.  I would love to know the understanding of how it came about that Pontius Pilate was or was not a saint.  It would be nice to see how the traditions developed.  Maybe the empire has something to do with it, I don't know.  And I'm tend to see that perhaps blaming the empire is a bit of a weak argument if there is no proof to indicate this.

However, when you start using the case of Pontius Pilate to say, "Oh my God!  This is so despairing!  How will we know the true faith if we can't even know whether Pontius Pilate was a saint based on imperial intrusion?"  At this point, I'm going to say something that even Pontius Pilate, if he is in the bosom of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, will yell back to us:

WHO CARES!!!!

Yes, I know I oversimplified the situation.  I think it is terrible that history is filled with such idiocies of the past to confuse people today.  But now, I'm going to give another side of it.  Part of the blame may be us, but the other part of the blame is also those who despair.  To despair about this is foolish.  "The kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force."  Suffer, pray, fast, do the research, sweat and try to understand.  My example of standing up to the emperor worked for Arianism.  But it caused schisms in other areas.  Ya, I get that.  So DO THE RESEARCH.  Is the Holy Spirit bereft that he would leave you in despair not knowing the truth? 

7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! 12 Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets. “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

So forgive me for oversimplifying, but for anyone who despairs, then this is the simplistic answer I'll give.  Stop being weak and start praying, and start taking your own relationship with God seriously.  Then all things will be revealed to you little by little.  Apparently the Church fathers did not care much if one local church venerated Pontius Pilate and another talked smack about him.   (At least the OO Church does not care, and what more close relationship you get than Copts and Ethiopians who have opposing tradition on this situation?)  So if the empire was involved, they probably thought, "ya, suer, whatever."  But if the emperor would say, "there was a time when Christ was not" or "you must accept this council by force", brave bishops did not care about the emperor's personal feelings or the empire's disunity.  And neither should you.  Do the research.  Every situation is a case-by-case basis.  But overall, if the emperor is blamed, then he was blamed.  If the emperor did something right, he was praised.

Now, let's get back to discussing Pontius Pilate.  How was it strategic to spread Christianity?  Did it make a difference with Nero quickly thereafter?  For all we know, Nero treated Christians no differently than perhaps the pagan empire treated Pontius Pilate.  At that moment, the truth about Pontius Pilate could have been made clear, since now the Christians have become the enemy of the state.  Some bishops even believed it was against Christianity to join the military.  So, if Pontius Pilate was a saint, it would be some of those Roman Christians who would also venerate Pontius Pilate to further a cause against the empire that was killing off Christians.
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