Author Topic: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.  (Read 4713 times)

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Raylight

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Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« on: June 01, 2015, 06:36:53 PM »

The Jewish people have gone through a lot for the last 2000 years. Unfortunately, some of that was done by some Christians who were driven by blind hate and false belief that Christ would approve of such barbaric acts. I oppose antisemitism and any sign of such hate, and I do not tolerate those who hold antisemitic views in particular and those who hold racist views in general. ( By " I do not tolerate..." I mean, I wouldn't be friend of such person. I already had a friend who is antisemitic and lets just say I never saw such hate like I saw in him ).

Does the Eastern Orthodox Church have any declaration on the issue of antisemitism ? Is it a heresy for an Orthodox Christian to believe that Jewish people have a right to be in the land of Israel ?

At the mean time, I pray to God for peace in the Holy Land. That may Arabs and Jews live together in peace in the city of peace.

« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 06:39:13 PM by Raylight »

Offline Amatorus

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2015, 06:55:56 PM »
Do you really think anyone would want to risk of this site being put on a watchlist or shut down if anyone posted anything than what you are likely wanting to hear?

I think you're looking more for reassurance of your own ideals than truth. This world only alludes free speech. Ergo, this thread is going to be nothing but an echo chamber for you lest it gets locked and everyone loses.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 06:56:36 PM by Amatorus »

Offline LBK

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2015, 06:59:41 PM »
Quote
Is it a heresy for an Orthodox Christian to believe that Jewish people have a right to be in the land of Israel ?

Orthodox teaching is concerned with the kingdom not of this world and how we can attain it. Earthly politics are not its concern.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Amatorus

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2015, 07:03:05 PM »
Quote
Is it a heresy for an Orthodox Christian to believe that Jewish people have a right to be in the land of Israel ?

Orthodox teaching is concerned with the kingdom not of this world and how we can attain it. Earthly politics are not its concern.

Not to mention that by our doctrine itself, the New Covenant that Christ established let the dominion of "Israel" expand to ALL who follow His teachings. Israel is Christ, not some territory on a map.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 07:04:11 PM by Amatorus »

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2015, 07:07:55 PM »
Is it a heresy for an Orthodox Christian to believe that Jewish people have a right to be in the land of Israel ?
Yes if you mean a "divine, Biblical right" limited to the Israelis.

The Orthodox Church teaches that God's promise to Abraham's descendants was a promise to His spiritual descendants, not all his physical ones. See Galatians 3-4. Furher, Paul explains explains elsewhere that "Circumcision is of the heart, not of the flesh", and he tells Christians "We are the circumcision". In the Orthodox Church's view, Christians are Abraham's spiritual descendants.
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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2015, 07:11:07 PM »
What came to mind is:

"We renounce, censure and condemn racism, that is racial discrimination, ethnic feuds, hatreds and dissensions within the Church of Christ, as contrary to the teaching of the Gospel and the holy canons of our blessed fathers which 'support the holy Church and the entire Christian world, embellish it and lead it to divine godliness.'" (Synod in Constantinople, 1872)

(I have no idea if the entire encyclical is available online)

EDIT--but let's not conflate Jewish ethnicity, Jewish religion, and Jewish states/nations. These often overlap, but not always, and often a just criticism of one thing is misunderstood as a bad criticism of something else.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 07:16:06 PM by Justin Kissel »
"Well, do I convince you, that one ought never to despair of the disorders of the soul as incurable? ...For even if thou shouldst despair of thyself ten thousand times, I will never despair of thee" - St. John Chrysostom

Offline Amatorus

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2015, 07:12:23 PM »
Sorry for triple post but this also must be said:

1. There are many Palestinian/Arab Christians who may find this topic quite offensive and polemical.

2. This topic belongs in the Politics Forum IMO.

Raylight

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2015, 07:29:24 PM »
Sorry for triple post but this also must be said:

1. There are many Palestinian/Arab Christians who may find this topic quite offensive and polemical.

2. This topic belongs in the Politics Forum IMO.

Excuse me!! What are you getting upset about that you posted three replies which indicate your emotions are getting worked up here!!

What is exactly going to be "offensive" ? Is it the fact that I mentioned that the Jews were persecuted for the last 2000 years ? or is it that I oppose antisemitism ?

Plus, I didn't even say anything about my beliefs on the issue. So how come you think I have something in my mind ?

All what I wanted, is to make sure that something is not a heresy and as it turned out that the Orthodox Church doesn't declare  doctrines on earthly kingdoms, it focuses on the Eternal Kingdom of Christ.

Please think twice before you accuse me of something that you have no prove whatsoever for.

« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 07:33:27 PM by Raylight »

Raylight

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2015, 07:30:09 PM »
Quote
Is it a heresy for an Orthodox Christian to believe that Jewish people have a right to be in the land of Israel ?

Orthodox teaching is concerned with the kingdom not of this world and how we can attain it. Earthly politics are not its concern.

Amen. Thank you LBK :)

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2015, 07:30:59 PM »
Is it a heresy for an Orthodox Christian to believe that Jewish people have a right to be in the land of Israel ?

No.

The Church has never disputed the right of Jewish people to be in the land of Israel just like it has also not disputed their right to be anywhere else.
God bless!

Raylight

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2015, 07:31:57 PM »
Is it a heresy for an Orthodox Christian to believe that Jewish people have a right to be in the land of Israel ?
Yes if you mean a "divine, Biblical right" limited to the Israelis.


Hi rakovsky.  :)

Could you please site a source for that ? It is hard for me to figure out what the Orthodox Church actually teaches on certain matter.

Raylight

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2015, 07:35:32 PM »
What came to mind is:

"We renounce, censure and condemn racism, that is racial discrimination, ethnic feuds, hatreds and dissensions within the Church of Christ, as contrary to the teaching of the Gospel and the holy canons of our blessed fathers which 'support the holy Church and the entire Christian world, embellish it and lead it to divine godliness.'" (Synod in Constantinople, 1872)

(I have no idea if the entire encyclical is available online)

EDIT--but let's not conflate Jewish ethnicity, Jewish religion, and Jewish states/nations. These often overlap, but not always, and often a just criticism of one thing is misunderstood as a bad criticism of something else.

Thank you for the reply Justin.  :)

Sad that I used to think in the past that the Orthodox Church supported racism. Obviously somehow I was the victim of superficial media ( just like many other people ) and mixed the Church's teachings with those who committed racial crimes in the name of the Church.

Raylight

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2015, 07:36:38 PM »
Is it a heresy for an Orthodox Christian to believe that Jewish people have a right to be in the land of Israel ?

No.

The Church has never disputed the right of Jewish people to be in the land of Israel just like it has also not disputed their right to be anywhere else.

Hi TheTrisagion :)

Thanks for the reply. And yes, you do still post here  ;)

Offline Tikhon29605

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2015, 07:42:48 PM »

The Jewish people have gone through a lot for the last 2000 years. Unfortunately, some of that was done by some Christians who were driven by blind hate and false belief that Christ would approve of such barbaric acts. I oppose antisemitism and any sign of such hate, and I do not tolerate those who hold antisemitic views in particular and those who hold racist views in general. ( By " I do not tolerate..." I mean, I wouldn't be friend of such person. I already had a friend who is antisemitic and lets just say I never saw such hate like I saw in him ).

Does the Eastern Orthodox Church have any declaration on the issue of antisemitism ? Is it a heresy for an Orthodox Christian to believe that Jewish people have a right to be in the land of Israel ?

At the mean time, I pray to God for peace in the Holy Land. That may Arabs and Jews live together in peace in the city of peace.

In the 2,000 years of Christian tradition we Orthodox have not been perfect.  We have sinned against God, each other, and just about every group of human beings that exist, including Roman Catholics, Protestants and Jews. 

Antisemitism has waxed and waned throughout history and it has taken place all over the world and especially in Western, Central and Eastern Europe, wherever there have been large populations of Jews.  This is not to excuse antisemitism, but to point out that being Orthodox does not necessarily cause it.  Antisemitism has occurred in Roman Catholic, Protestant, Islamic, Orthodox and Secular societies. 

It is true that in the past Jews in certain parts of Europe were treated terribly at times.  The Jews were expelled from Spain in the middle ages. The Crusades gave rise to all sorts of perversions and hideous antisemitic acts against the Jews all over Europe. Eastern France had a hideous outbreak of antisemitism in Strasbourg in the medieval period that results in hundreds of Jews have their property stolen and being burned alive. Germany, Poland and Russia, all three with rather large Jewish populations at some point in their history, varied throughout their history from being mildly tolerant of Jews, to restricting them, to great prejudice against them, pogroms against them, to downright genocide.

I would counsel you to learn to distinguish between the secular gov'ts of Germany, Poland, and Russia and between the Lutheran, Roman Catholic, and Orthodox Churches respectively.  Remember that acts of gov't are not the acts of particular churches.  This doesn't mean that we ignore antisemitism, but that its causes are complex and cannot be reduced to the existence of another religious group.

I don't know if any Ecumenical Council has ever addressed the subject of antisemitism.  Nevertheless, since we in the Orthodox Church do not believe in inherited sin and guilt, it would be very wrong and inconsistent of us to blame today's Jewish people for the sins of their fathers. They had nothing to do with that and should be left alone in peace.

I think the most charitable thing I could say is that the Orthodox Church and the Jewish people have different understandings of who Jesus Christ is.  And neither one is likely to change their viewpoint ever.  Therefore, let us learn to be neighborly and kind to one another, and not argue about our religious differences.

Regarding your question about the "right" of modern day Jews to be in Israel:  That all depends on what you mean by the word "right."  Orthodox Christians do not believe that God Himself re-established the nation of Israel in 1948 as a homeland for the world's Jewish people, regardless of what American fundagelicals might believe about the matter.  Orthodox Christians look upon the modern secular nation of Israel as of no more divine in its institution, no more "special to God" than any other country on the face of the earth.  Modern Israel is no more special to God than Bolivia, Mongolia or Iceland and to treat it as such and to give it "carte blanche" to treat the Palestinians like dirt (many of whom are Orthodox Christians) is to make an idol out of that modern nation state. 

This doesn't mean we have to get all emotional about Israel.  Just remember that there's nothing special or divine about it and the Knesset has the obligation to treat all Israeli citizens and residents with the human dignity that they deserve.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2015, 07:51:44 PM »
What came to mind is:

"We renounce, censure and condemn racism, that is racial discrimination, ethnic feuds, hatreds and dissensions within the Church of Christ, as contrary to the teaching of the Gospel and the holy canons of our blessed fathers which 'support the holy Church and the entire Christian world, embellish it and lead it to divine godliness.'" (Synod in Constantinople, 1872)

(I have no idea if the entire encyclical is available online)

EDIT--but let's not conflate Jewish ethnicity, Jewish religion, and Jewish states/nations. These often overlap, but not always, and often a just criticism of one thing is misunderstood as a bad criticism of something else.

Thank you for the reply Justin.  :)

Sad that I used to think in the past that the Orthodox Church supported racism. Obviously somehow I was the victim of superficial media ( just like many other people ) and mixed the Church's teachings with those who committed racial crimes in the name of the Church.
Unfortunately, there are some vocal members of the Church who are quite racist in their rants which is disgraceful.  :(

Another thing is that while most Orthodox are not anti-semitic, they do tend to take a more skeptical view of the political movement of Zionism than most Americans do. I know you are Canadian, but you are probably familiar enough with US politics to know that the Zionist movement is very popular in the US.  Many conservative Christians denominations like Southern Baptists as well as Independent Fundamentalists tend to be very Zionistic in their politics due in large part to their eschatology. On the opposite side of the spectrum, there are many wealthy liberal Jewish persons who also support Zionism both financially and in media thereby making it truly a movement with bipartisan appeal. I think what most Orthodox Christian wish Americans understood is that there have been Christians in Palestine for a solid 2,000 years and they are more marginalized now than they ever were in history. The constant fighting between Palestinians and Israelis has been devastating for the Church and unfortunately, it does not appear that there will be a resolution that will enable Orthodox Christians the right to worship in peace. They have ethnic ties to the Palestinians, but tend to be viewed with suspicion by Muslims and the Israelis lump them and the Muslims all together as second class citizens.

I think I veered into politics and I apologize for that, but I don't think there is a way to explain it without doing so.
God bless!

Raylight

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2015, 07:55:39 PM »

The Jewish people have gone through a lot for the last 2000 years. Unfortunately, some of that was done by some Christians who were driven by blind hate and false belief that Christ would approve of such barbaric acts. I oppose antisemitism and any sign of such hate, and I do not tolerate those who hold antisemitic views in particular and those who hold racist views in general. ( By " I do not tolerate..." I mean, I wouldn't be friend of such person. I already had a friend who is antisemitic and lets just say I never saw such hate like I saw in him ).

Does the Eastern Orthodox Church have any declaration on the issue of antisemitism ? Is it a heresy for an Orthodox Christian to believe that Jewish people have a right to be in the land of Israel ?

At the mean time, I pray to God for peace in the Holy Land. That may Arabs and Jews live together in peace in the city of peace.

In the 2,000 years of Christian tradition we Orthodox have not been perfect.  We have sinned against God, each other, and just about every group of human beings that exist, including Roman Catholics, Protestants and Jews. 

Antisemitism has waxed and waned throughout history and it has taken place all over the world and especially in Western, Central and Eastern Europe, wherever there have been large populations of Jews.  This is not to excuse antisemitism, but to point out that being Orthodox does not necessarily cause it.  Antisemitism has occurred in Roman Catholic, Protestant, Islamic, Orthodox and Secular societies. 

It is true that in the past Jews in certain parts of Europe were treated terribly at times.  The Jews were expelled from Spain in the middle ages. The Crusades gave rise to all sorts of perversions and hideous antisemitic acts against the Jews all over Europe. Eastern France had a hideous outbreak of antisemitism in Strasbourg in the medieval period that results in hundreds of Jews have their property stolen and being burned alive. Germany, Poland and Russia, all three with rather large Jewish populations at some point in their history, varied throughout their history from being mildly tolerant of Jews, to restricting them, to great prejudice against them, pogroms against them, to downright genocide.

I would counsel you to learn to distinguish between the secular gov'ts of Germany, Poland, and Russia and between the Lutheran, Roman Catholic, and Orthodox Churches respectively.  Remember that acts of gov't are not the acts of particular churches.  This doesn't mean that we ignore antisemitism, but that its causes are complex and cannot be reduced to the existence of another religious group.

I don't know if any Ecumenical Council has ever addressed the subject of antisemitism.  Nevertheless, since we in the Orthodox Church do not believe in inherited sin and guilt, it would be very wrong and inconsistent of us to blame today's Jewish people for the sins of their fathers. They had nothing to do with that and should be left alone in peace.

I think the most charitable thing I could say is that the Orthodox Church and the Jewish people have different understandings of who Jesus Christ is.  And neither one is likely to change their viewpoint ever.  Therefore, let us learn to be neighborly and kind to one another, and not argue about our religious differences.

Regarding your question about the "right" of modern day Jews to be in Israel:  That all depends on what you mean by the word "right."  Orthodox Christians do not believe that God Himself re-established the nation of Israel in 1948 as a homeland for the world's Jewish people, regardless of what American fundagelicals might believe about the matter.  Orthodox Christians look upon the modern secular nation of Israel as of no more divine in its institution, no more "special to God" than any other country on the face of the earth.  Modern Israel is no more special to God than Bolivia, Mongolia or Iceland and to treat it as such and to give it "carte blanche" to treat the Palestinians like dirt (many of whom are Orthodox Christians) is to make an idol out of that modern nation state. 

This doesn't mean we have to get all emotional about Israel.  Just remember that there's nothing special or divine about it and the Knesset has the obligation to treat all Israeli citizens and residents with the human dignity that they deserve.


Hi Tikhon :)

Thank you for the reply.

I just have few notes:

As far as I know, many Israelis don't even believe that God gave them the land. Israel is one of the most secular countries in the Middle East. Only 30% of Israelis are religious.

My question was whether it is considered heresy in the Orthodox Church to believe certain thing ?

Raylight

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2015, 08:02:02 PM »
What came to mind is:

"We renounce, censure and condemn racism, that is racial discrimination, ethnic feuds, hatreds and dissensions within the Church of Christ, as contrary to the teaching of the Gospel and the holy canons of our blessed fathers which 'support the holy Church and the entire Christian world, embellish it and lead it to divine godliness.'" (Synod in Constantinople, 1872)

(I have no idea if the entire encyclical is available online)

EDIT--but let's not conflate Jewish ethnicity, Jewish religion, and Jewish states/nations. These often overlap, but not always, and often a just criticism of one thing is misunderstood as a bad criticism of something else.

Thank you for the reply Justin.  :)

Sad that I used to think in the past that the Orthodox Church supported racism. Obviously somehow I was the victim of superficial media ( just like many other people ) and mixed the Church's teachings with those who committed racial crimes in the name of the Church.
Unfortunately, there are some vocal members of the Church who are quite racist in their rants which is disgraceful.  :(

Another thing is that while most Orthodox are not anti-semitic, they do tend to take a more skeptical view of the political movement of Zionism than most Americans do. I know you are Canadian, but you are probably familiar enough with US politics to know that the Zionist movement is very popular in the US.  Many conservative Christians denominations like Southern Baptists as well as Independent Fundamentalists tend to be very Zionistic in their politics due in large part to their eschatology. On the opposite side of the spectrum, there are many wealthy liberal Jewish persons who also support Zionism both financially and in media thereby making it truly a movement with bipartisan appeal. I think what most Orthodox Christian wish Americans understood is that there have been Christians in Palestine for a solid 2,000 years and they are more marginalized now than they ever were in history. The constant fighting between Palestinians and Israelis has been devastating for the Church and unfortunately, it does not appear that there will be a resolution that will enable Orthodox Christians the right to worship in peace. They have ethnic ties to the Palestinians, but tend to be viewed with suspicion by Muslims and the Israelis lump them and the Muslims all together as second class citizens.

I think I veered into politics and I apologize for that, but I don't think there is a way to explain it without doing so.

The situation there is very complicated. I think some Americans have a vague view of the whole situation.

Offline wgw

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2015, 08:19:23 PM »
The Oriental Orthodox have a good track record of non anti semitism as witnessed by the historic coexistence of Jews and Erhiopian Orthodox.  Not perfect, but nothing like some of what happened in Russia, or the Byzantine Empire's near genocide of the Samaritans in the uear 600.

I am oppposed to anti Semitism entirely and a proponent of reconciliation between Orthodoxy and Judaism.  Our best shot at envangelism is to make the Jews like us, which we can do.  We should also forge a bond with the Karaites and Samaritans and the Orthodox Church in Russia, the Ukraine, Armenia and Georgia especially I think need to do more to make the local Jewish population feel at ease.  I dont know who put up those anti-Semitic posters in Donetsk, whether it was Orthodox or Catholics, an actual act of the separatist government or a flase flag attempt to make it look bad: on this issue and all issues concerning the Ukraine War, I am passionately neutral.  But that such threats went out was a disgrace and I would like to see Orthodox religious leaders condemn amti Semitism more vocally in their sermons in the Ukraine. 

Also, in mu opinion it is a national disgrace in Greece that Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus, who dared to rewrite the Synodikon to contain amomg other things an anti-Semitic statement, has not been deposed.  Such a man is endangering the safety if Orthodox Christisns in the middle East by publically attacking both Judaism and Islam in general.   His actions make ke very sad in light of the service he did to Orthodox liturgy by reviving the liturgy of St. Serapion, although I dread to think he did it only because Serapion of Thmuis either is or shares his patron saint.  Either way for a canonical church to have such a man serving as a bishop of Metropolitan rank is a disgrace.

I do support the existence of a Jewish homeland in Palestine and have no objection to the existence of the state of Israel.  I lament however the lack of peace in the Middle East.  I am inclined to blame the worst attrocities entirely on Salafi Islam, which is a wickedly perverse religion that should be suppressed; I think Sunni Islam can function in a plural western society, but Western governments shoukd insist on moderate clerics of the Hanafi school, which is less stringent regarding womens attire, allows non Muslims to testify against Muslims in law courts, allows prayer in languages other than Arabic, and in general espouses values rewuired by liberal Western society.

Retunring to the subject of Jews thiugh, I be,ieve the Orthodox faith woukd benefit from more Hebrew and Aramaic scholars, like Eric Jone and the British master of Syriac studies, who is not himself Orthodox to my knowledge, but has done invaluable service, Sebastien Brock.  We in particular should study Hebrew liturgics and Jewish mysticism of the Second Temple period; kabbalah is of no use to us, but Wric Jobe has written interesting ideas on the vision of the wheels of the chariot of fire which carried Elijah among Second Temple Jews as something that may have been a mystical experience akin to Hesychasm, a forerunner of it.  Our understanding of our liturgy and theology can only improve by understanding the Apostles and the Apostolic fathers and their perspectives on our religion as it separated from Judaism.  Like the schism with the Roman Catholics by the way, it apoears the Jews largely fired the first shit by adding a nineteenth clause to a Hebrew orayer the name of which menas the Eightteen Blessings, which became Eightteen Blessings and an Anathema against Heretics.  No ,atter, because we also anathematize heretics.  But that clause is believed to have discouraged Jewish Christians from going to synagogues as they felt themselves the target.

We also must not forget the Jewish heritage in our churches.  There is an Antiochian here in LA with the last name Zakka whomproduced a glossy documentary about the Orthodox Church, in which he claims parish records show he is desscended from Zaccheaus.  And I believe him. Many members of the Syriac and Antiochian Orthodox Churches, tjeir Catholic counterparts, amd the Assyrian church, have recognizably Jewish last names; the Syriac Archbishop of the Western US is Mor Clemis Eugene Kaplan for example.  And their Jewish descent is mentioned in the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia, somewhere.

So since many of us acrually are Jews ethnicallly speaking, not that it matters religiously, for in Christ there ie neither Jew nor Greek, it stands to reason we shoukd fellowship with those of the closest religion to our own.  And I think saying the Jews alone are responsible for deicide should be grounds for anathema; Pontius Pilate tried to wash his hands of the blood, but he still put his career before what he knew to be Truth.  And there were Greeks and others in the city who could have tried to protest.  And ultimately is our sin not the actual reason why Christ had to die?  Really, if we did t sin, that whole incident woukd not have happened.  I feel the blood of rhe Lord is on my hands, I have even drunk it, as he has graciously offered it for my salvation, and thus I oray for the mercy of my Lord, who was a Jew.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline Amatorus

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2015, 08:30:26 PM »
EDIT:

OP please PM me.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 08:33:11 PM by Amatorus »

Offline wgw

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2015, 08:35:07 PM »
By the way for the record, Ive enjoyed reading the Talmud and have found nothing outrageous in it; the Pedalion after all forbids Orthodox from going to a Jewish doctor.  A canon I dont mind telling you I openly flaunt.  Some canons are relics of an earlier era and are not a part of Holy Tradition and should be struck.

I also would not object to following the lead of Pope St. John XXIIi, who I think did a great service by removing "perfidis iudaeos" from the Good Friday litanies.

I think a similiar review of our liturgies would nit be a bad idea.  We cant guarantee they wont cause offense but certain phraseology can be mitigated, in oarticular, anything that suggests deicide.  My understanding is the Reform Jews, who dont view rhe Talmud as binding, have reoudiated some of the sections a Christian might object to.

We must admit realistically that a lot of our religious literature and Jewish religious literature is going to have a polemic character due to the historical hostility.  But this should be viewed as an invasive weed and not as anything worth zealously guarding.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 08:40:47 PM by wgw »
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Raylight

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2015, 08:38:15 PM »
The Oriental Orthodox have a good track record of non anti semitism as witnessed by the historic coexistence of Jews and Erhiopian Orthodox.  Not perfect, but nothing like some of what happened in Russia, or the Byzantine Empire's near genocide of the Samaritans in the uear 600.

I am oppposed to anti Semitism entirely and a proponent of reconciliation between Orthodoxy and Judaism.  Our best shot at envangelism is to make the Jews like us, which we can do.  We should also forge a bond with the Karaites and Samaritans and the Orthodox Church in Russia, the Ukraine, Armenia and Georgia especially I think need to do more to make the local Jewish population feel at ease.  I dont know who put up those anti-Semitic posters in Donetsk, whether it was Orthodox or Catholics, an actual act of the separatist government or a flase flag attempt to make it look bad: on this issue and all issues concerning the Ukraine War, I am passionately neutral.  But that such threats went out was a disgrace and I would like to see Orthodox religious leaders condemn amti Semitism more vocally in their sermons in the Ukraine. 

Also, in mu opinion it is a national disgrace in Greece that Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus, who dared to rewrite the Synodikon to contain amomg other things an anti-Semitic statement, has not been deposed.  Such a man is endangering the safety if Orthodox Christisns in the middle East by publically attacking both Judaism and Islam in general.   His actions make ke very sad in light of the service he did to Orthodox liturgy by reviving the liturgy of St. Serapion, although I dread to think he did it only because Serapion of Thmuis either is or shares his patron saint.  Either way for a canonical church to have such a man serving as a bishop of Metropolitan rank is a disgrace.

I do support the existence of a Jewish homeland in Palestine and have no objection to the existence of the state of Israel.  I lament however the lack of peace in the Middle East.  I am inclined to blame the worst attrocities entirely on Salafi Islam, which is a wickedly perverse religion that should be suppressed; I think Sunni Islam can function in a plural western society, but Western governments shoukd insist on moderate clerics of the Hanafi school, which is less stringent regarding womens attire, allows non Muslims to testify against Muslims in law courts, allows prayer in languages other than Arabic, and in general espouses values rewuired by liberal Western society.

Retunring to the subject of Jews thiugh, I be,ieve the Orthodox faith woukd benefit from more Hebrew and Aramaic scholars, like Eric Jone and the British master of Syriac studies, who is not himself Orthodox to my knowledge, but has done invaluable service, Sebastien Brock.  We in particular should study Hebrew liturgics and Jewish mysticism of the Second Temple period; kabbalah is of no use to us, but Wric Jobe has written interesting ideas on the vision of the wheels of the chariot of fire which carried Elijah among Second Temple Jews as something that may have been a mystical experience akin to Hesychasm, a forerunner of it.  Our understanding of our liturgy and theology can only improve by understanding the Apostles and the Apostolic fathers and their perspectives on our religion as it separated from Judaism.  Like the schism with the Roman Catholics by the way, it apoears the Jews largely fired the first shit by adding a nineteenth clause to a Hebrew orayer the name of which menas the Eightteen Blessings, which became Eightteen Blessings and an Anathema against Heretics.  No ,atter, because we also anathematize heretics.  But that clause is believed to have discouraged Jewish Christians from going to synagogues as they felt themselves the target.

We also must not forget the Jewish heritage in our churches.  There is an Antiochian here in LA with the last name Zakka whomproduced a glossy documentary about the Orthodox Church, in which he claims parish records show he is desscended from Zaccheaus.  And I believe him. Many members of the Syriac and Antiochian Orthodox Churches, tjeir Catholic counterparts, amd the Assyrian church, have recognizably Jewish last names; the Syriac Archbishop of the Western US is Mor Clemis Eugene Kaplan for example.  And their Jewish descent is mentioned in the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia, somewhere.

So since many of us acrually are Jews ethnicallly speaking, not that it matters religiously, for in Christ there ie neither Jew nor Greek, it stands to reason we shoukd fellowship with those of the closest religion to our own.  And I think saying the Jews alone are responsible for deicide should be grounds for anathema; Pontius Pilate tried to wash his hands of the blood, but he still put his career before what he knew to be Truth.  And there were Greeks and others in the city who could have tried to protest.  And ultimately is our sin not the actual reason why Christ had to die?  Really, if we did t sin, that whole incident woukd not have happened.  I feel the blood of rhe Lord is on my hands, I have even drunk it, as he has graciously offered it for my salvation, and thus I oray for the mercy of my Lord, who was a Jew.

Wow!! Thank you for your reply wgw.  I enjoyed reading it and can see that you have good amount of knowledge on the subject.

Jesus Christ was Jewish indeed. The Theotokos was Jewish as well. St Paul, St Peter, St John...etc, were Jews.  One thing always attracted me to the Divine Liturgy of the Orthodox Church is that I can see the Jewish roots of the worship, I can see what the Apostles could relate to if they came back to life today. In the Orthodox Church and liturgy I can relate to Christ and the Apostles not just spiritually, but also earthly. Even in the daily prayers, many prayers are almost the same as what I read in the Old Testament which shows that the Orthodox Tradition doesn't shy away from its Hebrew roots.

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2015, 08:40:20 PM »
By the way for the record, Ive enjoyed reading the Talmud and have found nothing outrageous in it; the Pedalion after all forbids Orthodox from going to a Jewish doctor.  A canon I dont mind telling you I openly flaunt.  Some canons are relics of an earlier era and are not a part of Holy Tradition and should be struck.

Such canons can't be part of the Holy Tradition. What type of tradition is it to say that you can't go to a doctor just because of his/her religion ?!?!

I agree with you.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 08:43:30 PM by Raylight »

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2015, 08:42:40 PM »
EDIT:

OP please PM me.

I think I'm able to get PM from you. PM if you need to please :)

Offline wgw

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2015, 08:44:23 PM »
Note that on this issue alone Im a liberal.  When it comes to homosexuality, the ordination of women, et cetera, I am opposed to them with all my soul.  Which is one reason I like the Orthodox Jews so much; the vast majority of them, and also the Samaritans, share our Orthodox teaching on the subject; our standards of sexual morality really are a stricter version of the Torah, with monogamy now a reauire,ent and divorce followed by remarriage now despised if not prohibited as in RCism.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Raylight

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2015, 08:48:29 PM »
Note that on this issue alone Im a liberal.  When it comes to homosexuality, the ordination of women, et cetera, I am opposed to them with all my soul.  Which is one reason I like the Orthodox Jews so much; the vast majority of them, and also the Samaritans, share our Orthodox teaching on the subject; our standards of sexual morality really are a stricter version of the Torah, with monogamy now a reauire,ent and divorce followed by remarriage now despised if not prohibited as in RCism.

The other say I saw a small book titled " Orthodox Judaism and Orthodox Christianity ". I actually smiled when I saw it. I thought "Of course. the book is for those who as soon as you say I'm Christian Orthodox, they think Orthodox Jew "  ;D

Offline wgw

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2015, 08:55:28 PM »
Hmm Ill have to google it.  Was it in your parish bookshop?
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline Amatorus

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2015, 09:15:21 PM »
EDIT: Removed, I'm not getting my hands dirty. I wash my hands, I'm out. I will pray for you.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 09:21:42 PM by Amatorus »

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2015, 09:18:45 PM »
Sorry for triple post but this also must be said:

1. There are many Palestinian/Arab Christians who may find this topic quite offensive and polemical.

2. This topic belongs in the Politics Forum IMO.

Excuse me!! What are you getting upset about that you posted three replies which indicate your emotions are getting worked up here!!
I think you're reading way too much into one person's three replies and would have done well to take some more time before replying. One of those replies wasn't even to you, and he had every right to state his negative opinions.

What is exactly going to be "offensive" ? Is it the fact that I mentioned that the Jews were persecuted for the last 2000 years ? or is it that I oppose antisemitism ?

Plus, I didn't even say anything about my beliefs on the issue. So how come you think I have something in my mind ?

All what I wanted, is to make sure that something is not a heresy and as it turned out that the Orthodox Church doesn't declare  doctrines on earthly kingdoms, it focuses on the Eternal Kingdom of Christ.

Please think twice before you accuse me of something that you have no prove whatsoever for.
You would do well to follow that advice yourself, Raylight. ;) Amatorus didn't accuse you of anything.
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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2015, 09:42:48 PM »
I believe Judaism and Orthodoxy and the religious relations between them is a legitmate discussion for Religious Topics.  If this does degenerate into politics I would be disappointed.

So to prevent that, has anyone read Eric Jobe's latest articles on how to appreciate Old Testament poetry?  I found them very useful.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 09:44:01 PM by wgw »
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline lovesupreme

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2015, 09:48:46 PM »
This would really be better suited for Politics. Needless to say, the relationship between Jews and Christians, especially in the last 50 years, has not been one-sided.

I will say that there is absolutely nothing lacking in Orthodoxy that can be found in rabbinical Judaism, and that Christians who are fanatic about adopting Jewish customs and buy into dispensationalism worry me.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 09:49:59 PM by lovesupreme »

Raylight

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2015, 09:51:59 PM »
Sorry for triple post but this also must be said:

1. There are many Palestinian/Arab Christians who may find this topic quite offensive and polemical.

2. This topic belongs in the Politics Forum IMO.

Excuse me!! What are you getting upset about that you posted three replies which indicate your emotions are getting worked up here!!
I think you're reading way too much into one person's three replies and would have done well to take some more time before replying. One of those replies wasn't even to you, and he had every right to state his negative opinions.

What is exactly going to be "offensive" ? Is it the fact that I mentioned that the Jews were persecuted for the last 2000 years ? or is it that I oppose antisemitism ?

Plus, I didn't even say anything about my beliefs on the issue. So how come you think I have something in my mind ?

All what I wanted, is to make sure that something is not a heresy and as it turned out that the Orthodox Church doesn't declare  doctrines on earthly kingdoms, it focuses on the Eternal Kingdom of Christ.

Please think twice before you accuse me of something that you have no prove whatsoever for.
You would do well to follow that advice yourself, Raylight. ;) Amatorus didn't accuse you of anything.

Do you have anything to contribute to my question ? In case no, then I would appreciate it if we don't play the same old game again please.

Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2015, 09:53:35 PM »
By the way for the record, Ive enjoyed reading the Talmud and have found nothing outrageous in it; the Pedalion after all forbids Orthodox from going to a Jewish doctor.  A canon I dont mind telling you I openly flaunt.  Some canons are relics of an earlier era and are not a part of Holy Tradition and should be struck.

Such canons can't be part of the Holy Tradition. What type of tradition is it to say that you can't go to a doctor just because of his/her religion ?!?!

I agree with you.

What I've read is that canons such as that one might be relics of an earlier era when medical practices weren't always rooted in the scientific method as they are today, and in which doctors frequently made use of religious rituals and incantations instead of (or in addition to) what we today would recognize as medicine. Thus, that canon wouldn't apply today since (except perhaps in the case of some Haredi doctors) such rituals are no longer performed in a medical context.

Perhaps it'd be best to modify that canon (even if just mentally) so that it instead applies to Christian Science practitioners, Pentecostal faith healers such as Benny Hinn, witch doctors, and Narconon.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 09:54:20 PM by Minnesotan »
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Raylight

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2015, 09:54:21 PM »
Hmm Ill have to google it.  Was it in your parish bookshop?

Yes it was. I don't think it is a popular book.

Raylight

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2015, 10:01:35 PM »
I believe Judaism and Orthodoxy and the religious relations between them is a legitmate discussion for Religious Topics.  If this does degenerate into politics I would be disappointed.

So to prevent that, has anyone read Eric Jobe's latest articles on how to appreciate Old Testament poetry?  I found them very useful.

Speaking of Old Testament. I've always had special interest in the Old Testament. The beautiful about it is how earthly events and rituals symbolize things to come. Jesus Christ. It is like Christ being present there but without anyone realizing it until we today are able to see him here and there.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2015, 10:03:14 PM »
Sorry for triple post but this also must be said:

1. There are many Palestinian/Arab Christians who may find this topic quite offensive and polemical.

2. This topic belongs in the Politics Forum IMO.

Excuse me!! What are you getting upset about that you posted three replies which indicate your emotions are getting worked up here!!
I think you're reading way too much into one person's three replies and would have done well to take some more time before replying. One of those replies wasn't even to you, and he had every right to state his negative opinions.

What is exactly going to be "offensive" ? Is it the fact that I mentioned that the Jews were persecuted for the last 2000 years ? or is it that I oppose antisemitism ?

Plus, I didn't even say anything about my beliefs on the issue. So how come you think I have something in my mind ?

All what I wanted, is to make sure that something is not a heresy and as it turned out that the Orthodox Church doesn't declare  doctrines on earthly kingdoms, it focuses on the Eternal Kingdom of Christ.

Please think twice before you accuse me of something that you have no prove whatsoever for.
You would do well to follow that advice yourself, Raylight. ;) Amatorus didn't accuse you of anything.

Do you have anything to contribute to my question ? In case no, then I would appreciate it if we don't play the same old game again please.
I'm not playing games with you. No one is playing games with you.
Not all who wander are lost.

Raylight

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2015, 10:03:27 PM »
EDIT: Removed, I'm not getting my hands dirty. I wash my hands, I'm out. I will pray for you.

Thank you and have a good night.

Raylight

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2015, 10:04:29 PM »
Sorry for triple post but this also must be said:

1. There are many Palestinian/Arab Christians who may find this topic quite offensive and polemical.

2. This topic belongs in the Politics Forum IMO.

Excuse me!! What are you getting upset about that you posted three replies which indicate your emotions are getting worked up here!!
I think you're reading way too much into one person's three replies and would have done well to take some more time before replying. One of those replies wasn't even to you, and he had every right to state his negative opinions.

What is exactly going to be "offensive" ? Is it the fact that I mentioned that the Jews were persecuted for the last 2000 years ? or is it that I oppose antisemitism ?

Plus, I didn't even say anything about my beliefs on the issue. So how come you think I have something in my mind ?

All what I wanted, is to make sure that something is not a heresy and as it turned out that the Orthodox Church doesn't declare  doctrines on earthly kingdoms, it focuses on the Eternal Kingdom of Christ.

Please think twice before you accuse me of something that you have no prove whatsoever for.
You would do well to follow that advice yourself, Raylight. ;) Amatorus didn't accuse you of anything.

Do you have anything to contribute to my question ? In case no, then I would appreciate it if we don't play the same old game again please.
I'm not playing games with you. No one is playing games with you.

So you have nothing to contribute to the question. :)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2015, 10:06:38 PM »
Sorry for triple post but this also must be said:

1. There are many Palestinian/Arab Christians who may find this topic quite offensive and polemical.

2. This topic belongs in the Politics Forum IMO.

Excuse me!! What are you getting upset about that you posted three replies which indicate your emotions are getting worked up here!!
I think you're reading way too much into one person's three replies and would have done well to take some more time before replying. One of those replies wasn't even to you, and he had every right to state his negative opinions.

What is exactly going to be "offensive" ? Is it the fact that I mentioned that the Jews were persecuted for the last 2000 years ? or is it that I oppose antisemitism ?

Plus, I didn't even say anything about my beliefs on the issue. So how come you think I have something in my mind ?

All what I wanted, is to make sure that something is not a heresy and as it turned out that the Orthodox Church doesn't declare  doctrines on earthly kingdoms, it focuses on the Eternal Kingdom of Christ.

Please think twice before you accuse me of something that you have no prove whatsoever for.
You would do well to follow that advice yourself, Raylight. ;) Amatorus didn't accuse you of anything.

Do you have anything to contribute to my question ? In case no, then I would appreciate it if we don't play the same old game again please.
I'm not playing games with you. No one is playing games with you.

So you have nothing to contribute to the question. :)
But everything to contribute to how you relate to others' attempts to answer your question. So chill. 8)
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2015, 10:06:51 PM »
The Oriental Orthodox have a good track record of non anti semitism as witnessed by the historic coexistence of Jews and Erhiopian Orthodox.  Not perfect, but nothing like some of what happened in Russia, or the Byzantine Empire's near genocide of the Samaritans in the uear 600.

I am oppposed to anti Semitism entirely and a proponent of reconciliation between Orthodoxy and Judaism.  Our best shot at envangelism is to make the Jews like us, which we can do.  We should also forge a bond with the Karaites and Samaritans and the Orthodox Church in Russia, the Ukraine, Armenia and Georgia especially I think need to do more to make the local Jewish population feel at ease.  I dont know who put up those anti-Semitic posters in Donetsk, whether it was Orthodox or Catholics, an actual act of the separatist government or a flase flag attempt to make it look bad: on this issue and all issues concerning the Ukraine War, I am passionately neutral.  But that such threats went out was a disgrace and I would like to see Orthodox religious leaders condemn amti Semitism more vocally in their sermons in the Ukraine. 

Also, in mu opinion it is a national disgrace in Greece that Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus, who dared to rewrite the Synodikon to contain amomg other things an anti-Semitic statement, has not been deposed.  Such a man is endangering the safety if Orthodox Christisns in the middle East by publically attacking both Judaism and Islam in general.   His actions make ke very sad in light of the service he did to Orthodox liturgy by reviving the liturgy of St. Serapion, although I dread to think he did it only because Serapion of Thmuis either is or shares his patron saint.  Either way for a canonical church to have such a man serving as a bishop of Metropolitan rank is a disgrace.

I do support the existence of a Jewish homeland in Palestine and have no objection to the existence of the state of Israel.  I lament however the lack of peace in the Middle East.  I am inclined to blame the worst attrocities entirely on Salafi Islam, which is a wickedly perverse religion that should be suppressed; I think Sunni Islam can function in a plural western society, but Western governments shoukd insist on moderate clerics of the Hanafi school, which is less stringent regarding womens attire, allows non Muslims to testify against Muslims in law courts, allows prayer in languages other than Arabic, and in general espouses values rewuired by liberal Western society.

Retunring to the subject of Jews thiugh, I be,ieve the Orthodox faith woukd benefit from more Hebrew and Aramaic scholars, like Eric Jone and the British master of Syriac studies, who is not himself Orthodox to my knowledge, but has done invaluable service, Sebastien Brock.  We in particular should study Hebrew liturgics and Jewish mysticism of the Second Temple period; kabbalah is of no use to us, but Wric Jobe has written interesting ideas on the vision of the wheels of the chariot of fire which carried Elijah among Second Temple Jews as something that may have been a mystical experience akin to Hesychasm, a forerunner of it.  Our understanding of our liturgy and theology can only improve by understanding the Apostles and the Apostolic fathers and their perspectives on our religion as it separated from Judaism.  Like the schism with the Roman Catholics by the way, it apoears the Jews largely fired the first shit by adding a nineteenth clause to a Hebrew orayer the name of which menas the Eightteen Blessings, which became Eightteen Blessings and an Anathema against Heretics.  No ,atter, because we also anathematize heretics.  But that clause is believed to have discouraged Jewish Christians from going to synagogues as they felt themselves the target.

We also must not forget the Jewish heritage in our churches.  There is an Antiochian here in LA with the last name Zakka whomproduced a glossy documentary about the Orthodox Church, in which he claims parish records show he is desscended from Zaccheaus.  And I believe him. Many members of the Syriac and Antiochian Orthodox Churches, tjeir Catholic counterparts, amd the Assyrian church, have recognizably Jewish last names; the Syriac Archbishop of the Western US is Mor Clemis Eugene Kaplan for example.  And their Jewish descent is mentioned in the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia, somewhere.

So since many of us acrually are Jews ethnicallly speaking, not that it matters religiously, for in Christ there ie neither Jew nor Greek, it stands to reason we shoukd fellowship with those of the closest religion to our own.  And I think saying the Jews alone are responsible for deicide should be grounds for anathema; Pontius Pilate tried to wash his hands of the blood, but he still put his career before what he knew to be Truth.  And there were Greeks and others in the city who could have tried to protest.  And ultimately is our sin not the actual reason why Christ had to die?  Really, if we did t sin, that whole incident woukd not have happened.  I feel the blood of rhe Lord is on my hands, I have even drunk it, as he has graciously offered it for my salvation, and thus I oray for the mercy of my Lord, who was a Jew.

About the Samaritans, I've read about what happened between them and Byzantium and it was indeed very tragic, though not entirely one-sided. What dealt the largest blow to their community, though, was the fact that so many of them later converted to Islam under the Turks, presumably under pressure. Interestingly, studies show that many Palestinians (especially the ones near Ramallah) are ultimately descended from Samaritans, more so than from Arabs.

I do think Eastern Christians could potentially have a role to play in mediating peace in the region. Most of the OO don't have much of a record of persecuting Jews and many of them (as well as ACOTE) have some Hebrew ancestry themselves. The same with Antiochians and other non-Slavic EO (remember Archbishop Damaskinos?). And unlike dispensational Protestants, they don't embrace far-right Zionism or other ideologies that would hamper the peace process.
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Raylight

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2015, 10:12:45 PM »
Sorry for triple post but this also must be said:

1. There are many Palestinian/Arab Christians who may find this topic quite offensive and polemical.

2. This topic belongs in the Politics Forum IMO.

Excuse me!! What are you getting upset about that you posted three replies which indicate your emotions are getting worked up here!!
I think you're reading way too much into one person's three replies and would have done well to take some more time before replying. One of those replies wasn't even to you, and he had every right to state his negative opinions.

What is exactly going to be "offensive" ? Is it the fact that I mentioned that the Jews were persecuted for the last 2000 years ? or is it that I oppose antisemitism ?

Plus, I didn't even say anything about my beliefs on the issue. So how come you think I have something in my mind ?

All what I wanted, is to make sure that something is not a heresy and as it turned out that the Orthodox Church doesn't declare  doctrines on earthly kingdoms, it focuses on the Eternal Kingdom of Christ.

Please think twice before you accuse me of something that you have no prove whatsoever for.
You would do well to follow that advice yourself, Raylight. ;) Amatorus didn't accuse you of anything.

Do you have anything to contribute to my question ? In case no, then I would appreciate it if we don't play the same old game again please.
I'm not playing games with you. No one is playing games with you.

So you have nothing to contribute to the question. :)
But everything to contribute to how you relate to others' attempts to answer your question. So chill. 8)

I'm not the one who needs to chill. The one who needs to chill is the one talks about getting his hands dirty and washing hands as if he entered the thread some kind of filthy immoral place. You can't be so contrary Peter.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #40 on: June 01, 2015, 10:15:36 PM »
Sorry for triple post but this also must be said:

1. There are many Palestinian/Arab Christians who may find this topic quite offensive and polemical.

2. This topic belongs in the Politics Forum IMO.

Excuse me!! What are you getting upset about that you posted three replies which indicate your emotions are getting worked up here!!
I think you're reading way too much into one person's three replies and would have done well to take some more time before replying. One of those replies wasn't even to you, and he had every right to state his negative opinions.

What is exactly going to be "offensive" ? Is it the fact that I mentioned that the Jews were persecuted for the last 2000 years ? or is it that I oppose antisemitism ?

Plus, I didn't even say anything about my beliefs on the issue. So how come you think I have something in my mind ?

All what I wanted, is to make sure that something is not a heresy and as it turned out that the Orthodox Church doesn't declare  doctrines on earthly kingdoms, it focuses on the Eternal Kingdom of Christ.

Please think twice before you accuse me of something that you have no prove whatsoever for.
You would do well to follow that advice yourself, Raylight. ;) Amatorus didn't accuse you of anything.

Do you have anything to contribute to my question ? In case no, then I would appreciate it if we don't play the same old game again please.
I'm not playing games with you. No one is playing games with you.

So you have nothing to contribute to the question. :)
Raylight, I think what Peter and Amatorus were trying to say is that while what you said was not offensive, the direction that these conversations end up usually end up offensive because invariably they invoke strong emotions from certain people on this forum and that is why they typically get stuffed in the Politics section, so those individuals can yell and scream at each other without it infecting the broader forum. I think everyone that has posted here so far is in wholehearted agreement with you that anti-semitism is an ugly sin and one certainly not befitting those who seek to emulate Christ.
God bless!

Offline wgw

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #41 on: June 01, 2015, 10:16:18 PM »
The Oriental Orthodox have a good track record of non anti semitism as witnessed by the historic coexistence of Jews and Erhiopian Orthodox.  Not perfect, but nothing like some of what happened in Russia, or the Byzantine Empire's near genocide of the Samaritans in the uear 600.

I am oppposed to anti Semitism entirely and a proponent of reconciliation between Orthodoxy and Judaism.  Our best shot at envangelism is to make the Jews like us, which we can do.  We should also forge a bond with the Karaites and Samaritans and the Orthodox Church in Russia, the Ukraine, Armenia and Georgia especially I think need to do more to make the local Jewish population feel at ease.  I dont know who put up those anti-Semitic posters in Donetsk, whether it was Orthodox or Catholics, an actual act of the separatist government or a flase flag attempt to make it look bad: on this issue and all issues concerning the Ukraine War, I am passionately neutral.  But that such threats went out was a disgrace and I would like to see Orthodox religious leaders condemn amti Semitism more vocally in their sermons in the Ukraine. 

Also, in mu opinion it is a national disgrace in Greece that Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus, who dared to rewrite the Synodikon to contain amomg other things an anti-Semitic statement, has not been deposed.  Such a man is endangering the safety if Orthodox Christisns in the middle East by publically attacking both Judaism and Islam in general.   His actions make ke very sad in light of the service he did to Orthodox liturgy by reviving the liturgy of St. Serapion, although I dread to think he did it only because Serapion of Thmuis either is or shares his patron saint.  Either way for a canonical church to have such a man serving as a bishop of Metropolitan rank is a disgrace.

I do support the existence of a Jewish homeland in Palestine and have no objection to the existence of the state of Israel.  I lament however the lack of peace in the Middle East.  I am inclined to blame the worst attrocities entirely on Salafi Islam, which is a wickedly perverse religion that should be suppressed; I think Sunni Islam can function in a plural western society, but Western governments shoukd insist on moderate clerics of the Hanafi school, which is less stringent regarding womens attire, allows non Muslims to testify against Muslims in law courts, allows prayer in languages other than Arabic, and in general espouses values rewuired by liberal Western society.

Retunring to the subject of Jews thiugh, I be,ieve the Orthodox faith woukd benefit from more Hebrew and Aramaic scholars, like Eric Jone and the British master of Syriac studies, who is not himself Orthodox to my knowledge, but has done invaluable service, Sebastien Brock.  We in particular should study Hebrew liturgics and Jewish mysticism of the Second Temple period; kabbalah is of no use to us, but Wric Jobe has written interesting ideas on the vision of the wheels of the chariot of fire which carried Elijah among Second Temple Jews as something that may have been a mystical experience akin to Hesychasm, a forerunner of it.  Our understanding of our liturgy and theology can only improve by understanding the Apostles and the Apostolic fathers and their perspectives on our religion as it separated from Judaism.  Like the schism with the Roman Catholics by the way, it apoears the Jews largely fired the first shit by adding a nineteenth clause to a Hebrew orayer the name of which menas the Eightteen Blessings, which became Eightteen Blessings and an Anathema against Heretics.  No ,atter, because we also anathematize heretics.  But that clause is believed to have discouraged Jewish Christians from going to synagogues as they felt themselves the target.

We also must not forget the Jewish heritage in our churches.  There is an Antiochian here in LA with the last name Zakka whomproduced a glossy documentary about the Orthodox Church, in which he claims parish records show he is desscended from Zaccheaus.  And I believe him. Many members of the Syriac and Antiochian Orthodox Churches, tjeir Catholic counterparts, amd the Assyrian church, have recognizably Jewish last names; the Syriac Archbishop of the Western US is Mor Clemis Eugene Kaplan for example.  And their Jewish descent is mentioned in the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia, somewhere.

So since many of us acrually are Jews ethnicallly speaking, not that it matters religiously, for in Christ there ie neither Jew nor Greek, it stands to reason we shoukd fellowship with those of the closest religion to our own.  And I think saying the Jews alone are responsible for deicide should be grounds for anathema; Pontius Pilate tried to wash his hands of the blood, but he still put his career before what he knew to be Truth.  And there were Greeks and others in the city who could have tried to protest.  And ultimately is our sin not the actual reason why Christ had to die?  Really, if we did t sin, that whole incident woukd not have happened.  I feel the blood of rhe Lord is on my hands, I have even drunk it, as he has graciously offered it for my salvation, and thus I oray for the mercy of my Lord, who was a Jew.

About the Samaritans, I've read about what happened between them and Byzantium and it was indeed very tragic, though not entirely one-sided. What dealt the largest blow to their community, though, was the fact that so many of them later converted to Islam under the Turks, presumably under pressure. Interestingly, studies show that many Palestinians (especially the ones near Ramallah) are ultimately descended from Samaritans, more so than from Arabs.

I do think Eastern Christians could potentially have a role to play in mediating peace in the region. Most of the OO don't have much of a record of persecuting Jews and many of them (as well as ACOTE) have some Hebrew ancestry themselves. The same with Antiochians and other non-Slavic EO (remember Archbishop Damaskinos?). And unlike dispensational Protestants, they don't embrace far-right Zionism or other ideologies that would hamper the peace process.

I concur.  A major new element is the tragic rise of ISIL, which outs us in danger alomg eith all other religious minorities in the region.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #42 on: June 01, 2015, 10:22:43 PM »
The canon against an Orthodox Christian going to a Jewish doctor really is an old canard.

What I mean by this is that you have to place it in the context of its day and not put a 21st century interpretation on it. The canon itself comes from the Medieval Byzantine period, well before modern medicine, the germ theory of disease, open-heart surgery, x rays and CAT scans were known.  We are dealing with a very primitive level of medical care when this canon was written. One must realize that during the Medieval Byzantine period there was not that much difference between a doctor, a healer, an herbalist, a midwife, and someone that casted spells on others, both for their healing and cursing. It was a very different, pre-modern world.  Medicine was considered at that time to be part of the spiritual healing area.  Given the lack of real medical knowledge, and the lack of proper medical diagnosis and treatment, it is not surprising that at that time the Church counseled her children not to seek treatment from Jewish doctors. The primitive nature of the time, the obvious hostility between the Christians and the Jews during the period, and the Church's concern that the laity not seek spiritual counsel from those outside the faith all contributed.

Instead of looking down our collective noses at our theological ancestors and thinking we today are so far superior to the Byzantines, perhaps we can give a modern interpretation to this canon. Perhaps this canon against going to "Jewish doctors" could be re-interpreted as to mean we are not to seek "blatantly unChristian medical solutions or advice."  How's that for a beginning?

Imagine the following:

1. An Orthodox couple go to a psychiatrist for marital problems.  The doctor advises them to each have an affair to broaden their sexual horizons.

2.  Dr. Jocelyn Elders, Surgeon General during the Clinton Administration, recommends that one way to reduce teen pregnancy is for the schools to teach young people how to masturbate  "more effectively" so that they won't always resort to sexual intercourse. (Oops! That one actually DID happen.)

3.  You are caring for your elderly mother at home and its a real drag.  It depresses you.  She's not getting any better and says she wants to die.  Why can't you just call Dr. Kevorkian and finish her off and be done with it? 

I would submit that questions like these are the real "Jewish doctors" of our day.  Not the actual physical Jewish doctors.

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #43 on: June 01, 2015, 10:24:01 PM »
The Oriental Orthodox have a good track record of non anti semitism as witnessed by the historic coexistence of Jews and Erhiopian Orthodox.  Not perfect, but nothing like some of what happened in Russia, or the Byzantine Empire's near genocide of the Samaritans in the uear 600.

I am oppposed to anti Semitism entirely and a proponent of reconciliation between Orthodoxy and Judaism.  Our best shot at envangelism is to make the Jews like us, which we can do.  We should also forge a bond with the Karaites and Samaritans and the Orthodox Church in Russia, the Ukraine, Armenia and Georgia especially I think need to do more to make the local Jewish population feel at ease.  I dont know who put up those anti-Semitic posters in Donetsk, whether it was Orthodox or Catholics, an actual act of the separatist government or a flase flag attempt to make it look bad: on this issue and all issues concerning the Ukraine War, I am passionately neutral.  But that such threats went out was a disgrace and I would like to see Orthodox religious leaders condemn amti Semitism more vocally in their sermons in the Ukraine. 

Also, in mu opinion it is a national disgrace in Greece that Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus, who dared to rewrite the Synodikon to contain amomg other things an anti-Semitic statement, has not been deposed.  Such a man is endangering the safety if Orthodox Christisns in the middle East by publically attacking both Judaism and Islam in general.   His actions make ke very sad in light of the service he did to Orthodox liturgy by reviving the liturgy of St. Serapion, although I dread to think he did it only because Serapion of Thmuis either is or shares his patron saint.  Either way for a canonical church to have such a man serving as a bishop of Metropolitan rank is a disgrace.

I do support the existence of a Jewish homeland in Palestine and have no objection to the existence of the state of Israel.  I lament however the lack of peace in the Middle East.  I am inclined to blame the worst attrocities entirely on Salafi Islam, which is a wickedly perverse religion that should be suppressed; I think Sunni Islam can function in a plural western society, but Western governments shoukd insist on moderate clerics of the Hanafi school, which is less stringent regarding womens attire, allows non Muslims to testify against Muslims in law courts, allows prayer in languages other than Arabic, and in general espouses values rewuired by liberal Western society.

Retunring to the subject of Jews thiugh, I be,ieve the Orthodox faith woukd benefit from more Hebrew and Aramaic scholars, like Eric Jone and the British master of Syriac studies, who is not himself Orthodox to my knowledge, but has done invaluable service, Sebastien Brock.  We in particular should study Hebrew liturgics and Jewish mysticism of the Second Temple period; kabbalah is of no use to us, but Wric Jobe has written interesting ideas on the vision of the wheels of the chariot of fire which carried Elijah among Second Temple Jews as something that may have been a mystical experience akin to Hesychasm, a forerunner of it.  Our understanding of our liturgy and theology can only improve by understanding the Apostles and the Apostolic fathers and their perspectives on our religion as it separated from Judaism.  Like the schism with the Roman Catholics by the way, it apoears the Jews largely fired the first shit by adding a nineteenth clause to a Hebrew orayer the name of which menas the Eightteen Blessings, which became Eightteen Blessings and an Anathema against Heretics.  No ,atter, because we also anathematize heretics.  But that clause is believed to have discouraged Jewish Christians from going to synagogues as they felt themselves the target.

We also must not forget the Jewish heritage in our churches.  There is an Antiochian here in LA with the last name Zakka whomproduced a glossy documentary about the Orthodox Church, in which he claims parish records show he is desscended from Zaccheaus.  And I believe him. Many members of the Syriac and Antiochian Orthodox Churches, tjeir Catholic counterparts, amd the Assyrian church, have recognizably Jewish last names; the Syriac Archbishop of the Western US is Mor Clemis Eugene Kaplan for example.  And their Jewish descent is mentioned in the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia, somewhere.

So since many of us acrually are Jews ethnicallly speaking, not that it matters religiously, for in Christ there ie neither Jew nor Greek, it stands to reason we shoukd fellowship with those of the closest religion to our own.  And I think saying the Jews alone are responsible for deicide should be grounds for anathema; Pontius Pilate tried to wash his hands of the blood, but he still put his career before what he knew to be Truth.  And there were Greeks and others in the city who could have tried to protest.  And ultimately is our sin not the actual reason why Christ had to die?  Really, if we did t sin, that whole incident woukd not have happened.  I feel the blood of rhe Lord is on my hands, I have even drunk it, as he has graciously offered it for my salvation, and thus I oray for the mercy of my Lord, who was a Jew.

About the Samaritans, I've read about what happened between them and Byzantium and it was indeed very tragic, though not entirely one-sided. What dealt the largest blow to their community, though, was the fact that so many of them later converted to Islam under the Turks, presumably under pressure. Interestingly, studies show that many Palestinians (especially the ones near Ramallah) are ultimately descended from Samaritans, more so than from Arabs.

I do think Eastern Christians could potentially have a role to play in mediating peace in the region. Most of the OO don't have much of a record of persecuting Jews and many of them (as well as ACOTE) have some Hebrew ancestry themselves. The same with Antiochians and other non-Slavic EO (remember Archbishop Damaskinos?). And unlike dispensational Protestants, they don't embrace far-right Zionism or other ideologies that would hamper the peace process.

I concur.  A major new element is the tragic rise of ISIL, which outs us in danger alomg eith all other religious minorities in the region.

There was a movie that came out a while ago in which Israel and Hezbollah (along with lots of other countries/groups that were fighting each other) had to unite in order to fight zombies. ISIL could end up having a similar effect, it's practically spreading like a zombie plague.

I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #44 on: June 01, 2015, 10:32:44 PM »
The canon against an Orthodox Christian going to a Jewish doctor really is an old canard.

What I mean by this is that you have to place it in the context of its day and not put a 21st century interpretation on it. The canon itself comes from the Medieval Byzantine period, well before modern medicine, the germ theory of disease, open-heart surgery, x rays and CAT scans were known.  We are dealing with a very primitive level of medical care when this canon was written. One must realize that during the Medieval Byzantine period there was not that much difference between a doctor, a healer, an herbalist, a midwife, and someone that casted spells on others, both for their healing and cursing. It was a very different, pre-modern world.  Medicine was considered at that time to be part of the spiritual healing area.  Given the lack of real medical knowledge, and the lack of proper medical diagnosis and treatment, it is not surprising that at that time the Church counseled her children not to seek treatment from Jewish doctors. The primitive nature of the time, the obvious hostility between the Christians and the Jews during the period, and the Church's concern that the laity not seek spiritual counsel from those outside the faith all contributed.

Instead of looking down our collective noses at our theological ancestors and thinking we today are so far superior to the Byzantines, perhaps we can give a modern interpretation to this canon. Perhaps this canon against going to "Jewish doctors" could be re-interpreted as to mean we are not to seek "blatantly unChristian medical solutions or advice."  How's that for a beginning?

Imagine the following:

1. An Orthodox couple go to a psychiatrist for marital problems.  The doctor advises them to each have an affair to broaden their sexual horizons.

2.  Dr. Jocelyn Elders, Surgeon General during the Clinton Administration, recommends that one way to reduce teen pregnancy is for the schools to teach young people how to masturbate  "more effectively" so that they won't always resort to sexual intercourse. (Oops! That one actually DID happen.)

3.  You are caring for your elderly mother at home and its a real drag.  It depresses you.  She's not getting any better and says she wants to die.  Why can't you just call Dr. Kevorkian and finish her off and be done with it? 

I would submit that questions like these are the real "Jewish doctors" of our day.  Not the actual physical Jewish doctors.

I agree with your interpretations.  I hope the council next year issues a revised canon reversing the zjewish canon and replacing it with one that explicitly says what you just outlined.  Becuase with the canons at least, one shoukd be able to read them and aplly them literally; if we start reading them mystically, well, we might end up with something like the Kabbalah (which is a mystical interpretation of the Torah and the Talmud).
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #45 on: June 01, 2015, 10:35:54 PM »
Is it a heresy for an Orthodox Christian to believe that Jewish people have a right to be in the land of Israel ?
Yes if you mean a "divine, Biblical right" limited to the Israelis.


Hi rakovsky.  :)

Could you please site a source for that ? It is hard for me to figure out what the Orthodox Church actually teaches on certain matter.
Hi Raylight.

You can see the Nation of Israel in Prophecy by Conciliar Press
http://enxc.blogspot.com/2008/11/nation-of-israel-in-prophecy.html

This is a book that is found occasionally in the bookstores of parishes of orthodox churches.

See also Who is the New Israel on the Antiochian Orthodox website
http://www.antiochian.org/Orthodox_Church_Who_What_Where_Why/Who_Is_The_New_Israel.htm
these two materials explains that Christians are considered to be the descendants of Abraham. This is also what the Bible says in Galatians 3-4.

In the Old Testament God made a promise to Abraham that he would be the father of many nations and that the land would go to his descendants. Many "Bible only" Christians when they read this at face value think it means only physical descendants of course. But in Galatians Paul explains that this idea is wrong. He points out that Abraham is the father of many nations, so it's not just the Jewish nation. He says that this prophecy must really be about Christianity making Abraham the spiritual father of "many nations." Since we are talking about prophecies, they don't necessarily mean what they look like at first glance.
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #46 on: June 01, 2015, 10:41:37 PM »
However, the zjews were of particular importance since from them came our Lord, and thats why I believe we should be friendly with them.  Not just our Lord, but virtuslly everyone in the Bible who we regardas a saint is Jewish or a descendant or ancestor of Abraham, Ss. Luke and Titus being among the exceptions.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 10:42:05 PM by wgw »
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #47 on: June 01, 2015, 10:59:50 PM »
However, the zjews were of particular importance since from them came our Lord, and thats why I believe we should be friendly with them.  Not just our Lord, but virtuslly everyone in the Bible who we regardas a saint is Jewish or a descendant or ancestor of Abraham, Ss. Luke and Titus being among the exceptions.
Jesus came from the ancient Jewish ethnicity, and his follwers became Palestinian Christians like the Syriac Orthodox. You can trace Palestinian villages like Emmaus back to Jesus' times. The difference between Israelis and Palestinians is that when Palestine's Jews converted to Christianity and Islam they became known simply as "Palestinians" instead of Jews. Those who hadn't converted became Jewish Israelis by the 1950's.

So the question becomes if we went back to when these 3 religious movements split, should we be friends with one group (pharisees, Nazarenes, or Mohammed's followers) or all of them? Naturally the Christian answer should be to be friends with all people in the world.
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline LBK

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #48 on: June 01, 2015, 11:12:02 PM »
The Oriental Orthodox have a good track record of non anti semitism as witnessed by the historic coexistence of Jews and Erhiopian Orthodox.  Not perfect, but nothing like some of what happened in Russia, or the Byzantine Empire's near genocide of the Samaritans in the uear 600.

I am oppposed to anti Semitism entirely and a proponent of reconciliation between Orthodoxy and Judaism.  Our best shot at envangelism is to make the Jews like us, which we can do.  We should also forge a bond with the Karaites and Samaritans and the Orthodox Church in Russia, the Ukraine, Armenia and Georgia especially I think need to do more to make the local Jewish population feel at ease.  I dont know who put up those anti-Semitic posters in Donetsk, whether it was Orthodox or Catholics, an actual act of the separatist government or a flase flag attempt to make it look bad: on this issue and all issues concerning the Ukraine War, I am passionately neutral.  But that such threats went out was a disgrace and I would like to see Orthodox religious leaders condemn amti Semitism more vocally in their sermons in the Ukraine. 

Also, in mu opinion it is a national disgrace in Greece that Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus, who dared to rewrite the Synodikon to contain amomg other things an anti-Semitic statement, has not been deposed.  Such a man is endangering the safety if Orthodox Christisns in the middle East by publically attacking both Judaism and Islam in general.   His actions make ke very sad in light of the service he did to Orthodox liturgy by reviving the liturgy of St. Serapion, although I dread to think he did it only because Serapion of Thmuis either is or shares his patron saint.  Either way for a canonical church to have such a man serving as a bishop of Metropolitan rank is a disgrace.

I do support the existence of a Jewish homeland in Palestine and have no objection to the existence of the state of Israel.  I lament however the lack of peace in the Middle East.  I am inclined to blame the worst attrocities entirely on Salafi Islam, which is a wickedly perverse religion that should be suppressed; I think Sunni Islam can function in a plural western society, but Western governments shoukd insist on moderate clerics of the Hanafi school, which is less stringent regarding womens attire, allows non Muslims to testify against Muslims in law courts, allows prayer in languages other than Arabic, and in general espouses values rewuired by liberal Western society.

Retunring to the subject of Jews thiugh, I be,ieve the Orthodox faith woukd benefit from more Hebrew and Aramaic scholars, like Eric Jone and the British master of Syriac studies, who is not himself Orthodox to my knowledge, but has done invaluable service, Sebastien Brock.  We in particular should study Hebrew liturgics and Jewish mysticism of the Second Temple period; kabbalah is of no use to us, but Wric Jobe has written interesting ideas on the vision of the wheels of the chariot of fire which carried Elijah among Second Temple Jews as something that may have been a mystical experience akin to Hesychasm, a forerunner of it.  Our understanding of our liturgy and theology can only improve by understanding the Apostles and the Apostolic fathers and their perspectives on our religion as it separated from Judaism.  Like the schism with the Roman Catholics by the way, it apoears the Jews largely fired the first shit by adding a nineteenth clause to a Hebrew orayer the name of which menas the Eightteen Blessings, which became Eightteen Blessings and an Anathema against Heretics.  No ,atter, because we also anathematize heretics.  But that clause is believed to have discouraged Jewish Christians from going to synagogues as they felt themselves the target.

We also must not forget the Jewish heritage in our churches.  There is an Antiochian here in LA with the last name Zakka whomproduced a glossy documentary about the Orthodox Church, in which he claims parish records show he is desscended from Zaccheaus.  And I believe him. Many members of the Syriac and Antiochian Orthodox Churches, tjeir Catholic counterparts, amd the Assyrian church, have recognizably Jewish last names; the Syriac Archbishop of the Western US is Mor Clemis Eugene Kaplan for example.  And their Jewish descent is mentioned in the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia, somewhere.

So since many of us acrually are Jews ethnicallly speaking, not that it matters religiously, for in Christ there ie neither Jew nor Greek, it stands to reason we shoukd fellowship with those of the closest religion to our own.  And I think saying the Jews alone are responsible for deicide should be grounds for anathema; Pontius Pilate tried to wash his hands of the blood, but he still put his career before what he knew to be Truth.  And there were Greeks and others in the city who could have tried to protest.  And ultimately is our sin not the actual reason why Christ had to die?  Really, if we did t sin, that whole incident woukd not have happened.  I feel the blood of rhe Lord is on my hands, I have even drunk it, as he has graciously offered it for my salvation, and thus I oray for the mercy of my Lord, who was a Jew.

What does any of this have to do with the OP?
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline LBK

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #49 on: June 01, 2015, 11:13:16 PM »
By the way for the record, Ive enjoyed reading the Talmud and have found nothing outrageous in it; the Pedalion after all forbids Orthodox from going to a Jewish doctor.  A canon I dont mind telling you I openly flaunt.  Some canons are relics of an earlier era and are not a part of Holy Tradition and should be struck.

I also would not object to following the lead of Pope St. John XXIIi, who I think did a great service by removing "perfidis iudaeos" from the Good Friday litanies.

I think a similiar review of our liturgies would nit be a bad idea.  We cant guarantee they wont cause offense but certain phraseology can be mitigated, in oarticular, anything that suggests deicide.  My understanding is the Reform Jews, who dont view rhe Talmud as binding, have reoudiated some of the sections a Christian might object to.

We must admit realistically that a lot of our religious literature and Jewish religious literature is going to have a polemic character due to the historical hostility.  But this should be viewed as an invasive weed and not as anything worth zealously guarding.

What does any of this have to do with the OP?   ???
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 11:13:32 PM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #50 on: June 01, 2015, 11:17:58 PM »
Also, in mu opinion it is a national disgrace in Greece that Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus, who dared to rewrite the Synodikon to contain amomg other things an anti-Semitic statement, has not been deposed... for a canonical church to have such a man serving as a bishop of Metropolitan rank is a disgrace.
I oppose bishops making such intense statement, but his harsh words only named an Israeli political movement, not necessarily the Jewish people, correct?

Quote
I do support the existence of a Jewish homeland in Palestine
Why not a shared homeland that Palestinians, like the Syriac Orthodox could have an equal status in? If not a shared land, should Palestinian Christians have been forcibly removed from Biblical villages to make way for it? These are the kinds concerns that political statement raises and so further discussions about that that would be better for the Politics section.

Quote
There is an Antiochian here in LA with the last name Zakka whomproduced a glossy documentary about the Orthodox Church, in which he claims parish records show he is desscended from Zaccheaus. Many members of the Syriac and Antiochian Orthodox Churches, tjeir Catholic counterparts, amd the Assyrian church, have recognizably Jewish last names; the Syriac Archbishop of the Western US is Mor Clemis Eugene Kaplan for example.  And their Jewish descent is mentioned in the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia, somewhere.
This is what I am referring to when I talk about Palestinians being the ancient Jews, which is not to exclude modern Jews either. They have plenty of Israelite-based names like Daoud and Suleiman
 
Quote
So since many of us acrually are Jews ethnicallly speaking,
not that it matters religiously, for in Christ there ie neither Jew nor Greek, it stands to reason we shoukd fellowship with those of the closest religion to our own. 
Those are two very different criteria and thus one doesn't follow the other. It's also debatable which religion is closer to ours, since Muslims consider Jesus a prophet and Christ (the "Masih").

Quote
I oray for the mercy of my Lord, who was a Jew.
That's nice, but he was not one under Israeli law.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 11:18:28 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #51 on: June 01, 2015, 11:52:02 PM »
Judaism is a religion, one can be halakhically Jewish and nit related to the ancient Jews.  But the Y chromosome,,which is shared by the Samaritans, Ashkenazim, Sephardim, Beta Israel, Bene Israel, Kochin Jews, Boukhoparan Jews, Yemeni Jews, Mountain Jews, Egyptian Karaites and all other Jews Im aware of except some converts, and the Crimean Karaites, is believed to indicate descent from Aaron.  So anyone with this chromosome should be regarded as ethnically a descendent of ancient Israel, of Aaron specifically.

But we are venturing into politics.  This thread should be about religious relationships between Orthodox and Jews, not about politics.  And our Lord certainly would be considered a Jew under Israeli Law if born in this year, having a Jewish mother, however, he would probably earn the ire of the Chief Rabinnate.  However I Think most Jews dislike the Chief Rabinnate; theyre not strict enough for the haredim and are too strict for everyone else, on issues like divorce and marriage.  However the Jews have what amounts to something like the millet system, so things like Christisn marriage are not in the Rabbinates purview.

Bynthe way Imwas a big admirer of the former Chief Rabbi of the UK Lord Jonathan Sachs.  He amde a very pleasant contribution to a number of important British forums on the family and was a much stronger witness agaimst gay marriage I think than Archbishop Carey.

I love British Jews; in the United Synagogue the liturgy is incredibly refined and elegant as a rule.  Just enough of Reform was admitted without losing Orthodoxy.  I have a collection of Jewish sacred music by British Jewish composers and chazzans. 

I also have a fascinating recording of cantillation from a Purim service by the Karaites.  It sounds almost exactly like Mozarabic chant.  And some argue the Masoretes were Karaites living in Spain.  An etymological coincidence, to be sure, but amusing that Masoretic sounds a bit like Mozarabic and the Karaite chant matches the Mozarabic.  That being the ancient liturgical rite of Toledo, which like the Ambrosian Rite of Milan, feels a bit like a blend of the Eastern rites with the Latin Rite.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #52 on: June 01, 2015, 11:53:58 PM »
By the way for the record, Ive enjoyed reading the Talmud and have found nothing outrageous in it; the Pedalion after all forbids Orthodox from going to a Jewish doctor.  A canon I dont mind telling you I openly flaunt.  Some canons are relics of an earlier era and are not a part of Holy Tradition and should be struck.

I also would not object to following the lead of Pope St. John XXIIi, who I think did a great service by removing "perfidis iudaeos" from the Good Friday litanies.

I think a similiar review of our liturgies would nit be a bad idea.  We cant guarantee they wont cause offense but certain phraseology can be mitigated, in oarticular, anything that suggests deicide.  My understanding is the Reform Jews, who dont view rhe Talmud as binding, have reoudiated some of the sections a Christian might object to.

We must admit realistically that a lot of our religious literature and Jewish religious literature is going to have a polemic character due to the historical hostility.  But this should be viewed as an invasive weed and not as anything worth zealously guarding.

What does any of this have to do with the OP?   ???
Do you realize that you last 20 or so responses have all been criticizing wgw posts? I think you need to find something else to fixate on.  It isn't healthy.  Maybe try some yoga or something.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 11:54:53 PM by TheTrisagion »
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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #53 on: June 02, 2015, 12:00:08 AM »
By the way for the record, Ive enjoyed reading the Talmud and have found nothing outrageous in it; the Pedalion after all forbids Orthodox from going to a Jewish doctor.  A canon I dont mind telling you I openly flaunt.  Some canons are relics of an earlier era and are not a part of Holy Tradition and should be struck.

I also would not object to following the lead of Pope St. John XXIIi, who I think did a great service by removing "perfidis iudaeos" from the Good Friday litanies.

I think a similiar review of our liturgies would nit be a bad idea.  We cant guarantee they wont cause offense but certain phraseology can be mitigated, in oarticular, anything that suggests deicide.  My understanding is the Reform Jews, who dont view rhe Talmud as binding, have reoudiated some of the sections a Christian might object to.

We must admit realistically that a lot of our religious literature and Jewish religious literature is going to have a polemic character due to the historical hostility.  But this should be viewed as an invasive weed and not as anything worth zealously guarding.

What does any of this have to do with the OP?   ???
Do you realize that you last 20 or so responses have all been criticizing wgw posts? I think you need to find something else to fixate on.  It isn't healthy.  Maybe try some yoga or something.

Or at least update the signature.
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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #54 on: June 02, 2015, 12:03:09 AM »
This thread should be about religious relationships between Orthodox and Jews, not about politics. 

Quote
Is it a heresy for an Orthodox Christian to believe that Jewish people have a right to be in the land of Israel ?

Orthodox teaching is concerned with the kingdom not of this world and how we can attain it. Earthly politics are not its concern.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #55 on: June 02, 2015, 12:11:34 AM »
Judaism is a religion, one can be halakhically Jewish and nit related to the ancient Jews.  But the Y chromosome,,which is shared by the Samaritans, Ashkenazim, Sephardim, Beta Israel, Bene Israel, Kochin Jews, Boukhoparan Jews, Yemeni Jews, Mountain Jews, Egyptian Karaites and all other Jews Im aware of except some converts, and the Crimean Karaites, is believed to indicate descent from Aaron.  So anyone with this chromosome should be regarded as ethnically a descendent of ancient Israel, of Aaron specifically.
How do you know that most of the people in those groups have the same exact Y Chromosome? Wikipedia's section on Beta Israel's DNA says that they don't have Jewish DNA, based on eg.
Quote
a 2000 study by Hammer et al. of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes of... the Beta Israel, who were "affiliated more closely with non–Beta Israel Ethiopians and other East Africans".
And what about Palestinians from Biblical villages? 2/3 of Palestinian villages had Biblical or Jewish names even before Israeli rule, according to a former Israeli president.

Quote
And our Lord certainly would be considered a Jew under Israeli Law if born in this year, having a Jewish mother,
This is incorrect as I mentioned. Under Israeli law, Jews who become Christians are named as no longer Jewish.
See "Amendment No. 2 5730-1970", "Definition"
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Politics/Other_Law_Law_of_Return.html

Quote
However the Jews have what amounts to something like the millet system, so things like Christisn marriage are not in the Rabbinates purview.
As a result, Christians' marriages on Israeli territory to Jews are unrecognized under Israeli law as well.

Why support a "millet system" that makes Christians second class citizens?
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 12:21:17 AM by rakovsky »
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Offline wgw

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #56 on: June 02, 2015, 12:25:40 AM »
By the way for the record, Ive enjoyed reading the Talmud and have found nothing outrageous in it; the Pedalion after all forbids Orthodox from going to a Jewish doctor.  A canon I dont mind telling you I openly flaunt.  Some canons are relics of an earlier era and are not a part of Holy Tradition and should be struck.

I also would not object to following the lead of Pope St. John XXIIi, who I think did a great service by removing "perfidis iudaeos" from the Good Friday litanies.

I think a similiar review of our liturgies would nit be a bad idea.  We cant guarantee they wont cause offense but certain phraseology can be mitigated, in oarticular, anything that suggests deicide.  My understanding is the Reform Jews, who dont view rhe Talmud as binding, have reoudiated some of the sections a Christian might object to.

We must admit realistically that a lot of our religious literature and Jewish religious literature is going to have a polemic character due to the historical hostility.  But this should be viewed as an invasive weed and not as anything worth zealously guarding.

What does any of this have to do with the OP?   ???
Do you realize that you last 20 or so responses have all been criticizing wgw posts? I think you need to find something else to fixate on.  It isn't healthy.  Maybe try some yoga or something.

I advise Orthodox, even the ones who dont like me, to avoid yoga, as I dont believe it can be separated from its origins as Hindu meditative prayer.  I wouldnt encourage a Hindu not intereested in Orthodoxy to oractice hesychasm, either.  But thanks for the support anyway.   :)

Now regarding Jewish-Orthodox relations:

Did you know that the Syriac lectionaries contain two Old Testament lessons that can be approximated to the Weekly Torah Portion and corresponding Haftarah?  In fact in some cases they line up on chapter boundaries from a survey of the East Syriac lectionary on bombaxo.org and the Haftarah chart on Wikipedia.  Haftarah are readings of the books of the Tanakh other than the Torah believed to have begun in Babylon when the reading of the Torah was suppressed.

Historically however the Torah portions begun to be read thanks tk Ezra followimg the return from caltivity, prior to that the King would read the recapitulation of the law in Deuteronomy to the people once a year at the Feast of Booths or Sukhot.  So the Haftarah may have been the oldest part of the lectionary; speculation on my part but an informed guess.

Also I strongly suspect the Epistle / Gospel pattern was inspired by the Torah / Haftarah pattern.  The one year lectionaries look structurally similiar.  Whereas if you look at non liturgical Reformed and Baptist Protestants, alternative schemes like lectio continua become common.  Or the preacher might read "what the spirit moves him." The idea of a less important text paired with a holier text is definitely common to both the Christian lectionary and the Jewish lectionary.  One big difference however is that I believe, but cannot be certain due to the huge amount of liturgical diversity in Judaism (variations in the nusach, or order of worship), is that the Torah reading orecedes the Haftarah.  I will reread the Siddurim I have (only two alas, an Ashkenazi and a Karaite) to confirm this.  Also if anyone is interested I have a copy of a translation of the Samaritan defter, or prayer book, analogous to the Jewish siddur or our prayer books.

Only one thing about researching Jewish liturgics is easy:  there is just one main Siddur typically for a given rite, plus the book of Levi which contains instructions for the sacrificial cult.  Its a bit sad to consider that for the Jews, not the Samaritans, who lost their temple but still have access to its sacred orecincts and continue to perform sacrifices, their religion has had no function for priests other than to say the Priestly Blessing since 70 AD.  Its a bit like the Russian Old Believers who are priestless and only have the Typika and the Divine Office.  The Jewish equivalent if the Eucharist cannot be performed.  For this reason I am symoathetic to the group that wants to rebuild the temple, although I am opposed to them as any disruption on the temple mount would cause a war that would be tragic for Christians in the region.  However the Temple Foundation has made some lovely vestments and sacred vessels.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline wgw

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #57 on: June 02, 2015, 12:27:12 AM »
Judaism is a religion, one can be halakhically Jewish and nit related to the ancient Jews.  But the Y chromosome,,which is shared by the Samaritans, Ashkenazim, Sephardim, Beta Israel, Bene Israel, Kochin Jews, Boukhoparan Jews, Yemeni Jews, Mountain Jews, Egyptian Karaites and all other Jews Im aware of except some converts, and the Crimean Karaites, is believed to indicate descent from Aaron.  So anyone with this chromosome should be regarded as ethnically a descendent of ancient Israel, of Aaron specifically.
How do you know that most of the people in those groups have the same exact Y Chromosome? Wikipedia's section on Beta Israel's DNA says that they don't have Jewish DNA, based on eg.
Quote
a 2000 study by Hammer et al. of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes of... the Beta Israel, who were "affiliated more closely with non–Beta Israel Ethiopians and other East Africans".
And what about Palestinians from Biblical villages? 2/3 of Palestinian villages had Biblical or Jewish names even before Israeli rule, according to a former Israeli president.

Quote
And our Lord certainly would be considered a Jew under Israeli Law if born in this year, having a Jewish mother,
This is incorrect as I mentioned. Under Israeli law, Jews who become Christians are named as no longer Jewish.
See "Amendment No. 2 5730-1970", "Definition"
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Politics/Other_Law_Law_of_Return.html

Quote
However the Jews have what amounts to something like the millet system, so things like Christisn marriage are not in the Rabbinates purview.
As a result, Christians' marriages on Israeli territory to Jews are unrecognized under Israeli law as well.

Why support a "millet system" that makes Christians second class citizens?

Lets take this to Politics please.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline Maria

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #58 on: June 02, 2015, 12:28:43 AM »
Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future by Hieromonk Rose Seraphim urges us to beware of Buddhists, Hindi, and other flavors of Eastern Religions.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #59 on: June 02, 2015, 12:38:38 AM »
Apparently, can smart . . has brain.

Yes, I do real Theology

I am the Antichrist LOL just kidding

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #60 on: June 02, 2015, 12:42:31 AM »
Well Orthodoxy is an Eastern religion, a very Eastern one.  I think rather he meant those religions of the far East that were the rage among hippies, and still are.  Actually some people join Orthodoxy for the same reason, but I think we offer a better "product."  But like the Dharmic religions Fr. Seraphim warns us of, Orthodoxy is mystical, ascetic, liturgical and has a strong focus on controlling the passions.  Unlike them its true.

The most interesting Eastern religions like Zoroastrianism, Mandaeism, and Yazidism dont accept converts really, not that Id want to join. 

By the way, did Fr. Seraphim mention Christian Cabala?  If not, he should have.  Its basically a cheap ripoff of Jewish Kabbalah that amounts to theurgy or sorcery, and should be equally offensive to Orthodox Jews and Christians alike.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #61 on: June 02, 2015, 12:47:10 AM »
Christian Kabbalah? Wow.  :o
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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #62 on: June 02, 2015, 12:56:52 AM »
By the way for the record, Ive enjoyed reading the Talmud and have found nothing outrageous in it; the Pedalion after all forbids Orthodox from going to a Jewish doctor.  A canon I dont mind telling you I openly flaunt.  Some canons are relics of an earlier era and are not a part of Holy Tradition and should be struck.

I also would not object to following the lead of Pope St. John XXIIi, who I think did a great service by removing "perfidis iudaeos" from the Good Friday litanies.

I think a similiar review of our liturgies would nit be a bad idea.  We cant guarantee they wont cause offense but certain phraseology can be mitigated, in oarticular, anything that suggests deicide.  My understanding is the Reform Jews, who dont view rhe Talmud as binding, have reoudiated some of the sections a Christian might object to.

We must admit realistically that a lot of our religious literature and Jewish religious literature is going to have a polemic character due to the historical hostility.  But this should be viewed as an invasive weed and not as anything worth zealously guarding.

What does any of this have to do with the OP?   ???
Do you realize that you last 20 or so responses have all been criticizing wgw posts? I think you need to find something else to fixate on.  It isn't healthy.  Maybe try some yoga or something.

I advise Orthodox, even the ones who dont like me, to avoid yoga, as I dont believe it can be separated from its origins as Hindu meditative prayer.  I wouldnt encourage a Hindu not intereested in Orthodoxy to oractice hesychasm, either.  But thanks for the support anyway.   :)

It is, however, interesting to read about, about given its numerous effects on the brain and the body, which a science nerd like me can appreciate.

Most of the time when non-Hindus take up yoga, they're doing it for exercise or to relieve stress. In the case of Protestants, they're also doing it to fill a void that their own tradition is incapable of satisfying (Most strands of Protestantism don't have much in the way of mysticism or contemplation, and prayer is viewed a purely mental exercise, rather than something involving both the mind and body equally).

I wonder if there are any Orthodox practices (like hesychasm, or the system of prostrations found in the Coptic tradition) that have been observed to have similar effects. If they don't exist already, I wonder if it might be possible to develop something like that. Not just copying yoga and trying to put a "Christian" label on it, of course, but rather trying to develop something (for lay people as well as monks) that fits the same (actual or perceived) need, and that organically fits within Christian, and specifically Orthodox, spirituality. Who knows, maybe that could end up being American Orthodoxy's contribution to the world.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 12:57:45 AM by Minnesotan »
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #63 on: June 02, 2015, 02:39:11 AM »
Sorry for triple post but this also must be said:

1. There are many Palestinian/Arab Christians who may find this topic quite offensive and polemical.

2. This topic belongs in the Politics Forum IMO.

Excuse me!! What are you getting upset about that you posted three replies which indicate your emotions are getting worked up here!!
I think you're reading way too much into one person's three replies and would have done well to take some more time before replying. One of those replies wasn't even to you, and he had every right to state his negative opinions.

What is exactly going to be "offensive" ? Is it the fact that I mentioned that the Jews were persecuted for the last 2000 years ? or is it that I oppose antisemitism ?

Plus, I didn't even say anything about my beliefs on the issue. So how come you think I have something in my mind ?

All what I wanted, is to make sure that something is not a heresy and as it turned out that the Orthodox Church doesn't declare  doctrines on earthly kingdoms, it focuses on the Eternal Kingdom of Christ.

Please think twice before you accuse me of something that you have no prove whatsoever for.
You would do well to follow that advice yourself, Raylight. ;) Amatorus didn't accuse you of anything.

Do you have anything to contribute to my question ? In case no, then I would appreciate it if we don't play the same old game again please.
I'm not playing games with you. No one is playing games with you.

So you have nothing to contribute to the question. :)
Raylight, I think what Peter and Amatorus were trying to say is that while what you said was not offensive, the direction that these conversations end up usually end up offensive because invariably they invoke strong emotions from certain people on this forum and that is why they typically get stuffed in the Politics section, so those individuals can yell and scream at each other without it infecting the broader forum.
Actually, that's not at all what I was trying to say. I said what I meant to say: that Raylight got angry about what he perceived wrongly to be an accusation against him and that he needed to chill out.

I think everyone that has posted here so far is in wholehearted agreement with you that anti-semitism is an ugly sin and one certainly not befitting those who seek to emulate Christ.
No disagreement there.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 02:55:30 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #64 on: June 02, 2015, 02:41:03 AM »
Racism is a heresy. That's why I am personally against Zionism. Also, I don't really know what constitutes 'anti-semitism', the concept still somewhat alludes me. Irrational bigotry on the part of anyone should be avoided and rightly condemned. If, however, by antisemitism, you mean criticizing a) Israel, b) Judaism or c) Jews, then it's entirely in keeping with Western political freedom to do so. I have a right to criticize a) the Vatican, b) Roman Catholicism and c) Roman Catholics, don't I? Just like I have the right to criticize a) Saudi Arabia, b) Islam and c) Muslims. Bigotry is bigotry, criticism against institutions, beliefs and people is 100% warranted, and anyone who tries to throw around these outrageous neologisms to stifle people's freedom of speech or personal opinions, even though they are entirely within their rights to have those opinions, should just keep quiet and leave the civilized world alone.

I say these remarks in light of Vicarius Christi Pope Francis's recent declaration that opposing Israel is antisemitic. Opposing Nazi Germany wasn't anti-German, opposing the USSR wasn't anti-Russian. Irrational neologisms will not dominate the ballgame on the Israel-Palestine conflict no matter how much Francis' shines his pearly whites in front of the camera in support of Israel and Judaism.



That's Pope Francis to you. Even though we are an Orthodox forum community, we do demand a lot more respect for Catholic clerics than to call any Pope of Rome such a rudely familiar name as "Pope Frank."  -PtA
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 03:38:26 AM by PeterTheAleut »
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #65 on: June 02, 2015, 02:43:39 AM »
By the way for the record, Ive enjoyed reading the Talmud and have found nothing outrageous in it; the Pedalion after all forbids Orthodox from going to a Jewish doctor.  A canon I dont mind telling you I openly flaunt.  Some canons are relics of an earlier era and are not a part of Holy Tradition and should be struck.

I also would not object to following the lead of Pope St. John XXIIi, who I think did a great service by removing "perfidis iudaeos" from the Good Friday litanies.

I think a similiar review of our liturgies would nit be a bad idea.  We cant guarantee they wont cause offense but certain phraseology can be mitigated, in oarticular, anything that suggests deicide.  My understanding is the Reform Jews, who dont view rhe Talmud as binding, have reoudiated some of the sections a Christian might object to.

We must admit realistically that a lot of our religious literature and Jewish religious literature is going to have a polemic character due to the historical hostility.  But this should be viewed as an invasive weed and not as anything worth zealously guarding.

What does any of this have to do with the OP?   ???
wgw's posts have a lot more to do with the OP than what you or I are doing here. ;)
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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #66 on: June 02, 2015, 02:53:15 AM »
By the way for the record, Ive enjoyed reading the Talmud and have found nothing outrageous in it; the Pedalion after all forbids Orthodox from going to a Jewish doctor.  A canon I dont mind telling you I openly flaunt.  Some canons are relics of an earlier era and are not a part of Holy Tradition and should be struck.

I also would not object to following the lead of Pope St. John XXIIi, who I think did a great service by removing "perfidis iudaeos" from the Good Friday litanies.

I think a similiar review of our liturgies would nit be a bad idea.  We cant guarantee they wont cause offense but certain phraseology can be mitigated, in oarticular, anything that suggests deicide.  My understanding is the Reform Jews, who dont view rhe Talmud as binding, have reoudiated some of the sections a Christian might object to.

We must admit realistically that a lot of our religious literature and Jewish religious literature is going to have a polemic character due to the historical hostility.  But this should be viewed as an invasive weed and not as anything worth zealously guarding.

What does any of this have to do with the OP?   ???
wgw's posts have a lot more to do with the OP than what you or I are doing here. ;)

So your and wgw's off-topic posts are right and proper, while mine are not. Hmmm.  :P ::)
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #67 on: June 02, 2015, 02:56:07 AM »
By the way for the record, Ive enjoyed reading the Talmud and have found nothing outrageous in it; the Pedalion after all forbids Orthodox from going to a Jewish doctor.  A canon I dont mind telling you I openly flaunt.  Some canons are relics of an earlier era and are not a part of Holy Tradition and should be struck.

I also would not object to following the lead of Pope St. John XXIIi, who I think did a great service by removing "perfidis iudaeos" from the Good Friday litanies.

I think a similiar review of our liturgies would nit be a bad idea.  We cant guarantee they wont cause offense but certain phraseology can be mitigated, in oarticular, anything that suggests deicide.  My understanding is the Reform Jews, who dont view rhe Talmud as binding, have reoudiated some of the sections a Christian might object to.

We must admit realistically that a lot of our religious literature and Jewish religious literature is going to have a polemic character due to the historical hostility.  But this should be viewed as an invasive weed and not as anything worth zealously guarding.

What does any of this have to do with the OP?   ???
wgw's posts have a lot more to do with the OP than what you or I are doing here. ;)

So your and wgw's off-topic posts are right and proper, while mine are not. Hmmm.  :P ::)
I never said that, LBK.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 02:56:37 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline LBK

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #68 on: June 02, 2015, 03:00:44 AM »
Spare me the semantic games, PtA. You're well known for picking whichever side suits your cause du jour::)
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline lovesupreme

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #69 on: June 02, 2015, 03:02:29 AM »
You guys are bickering like a bunch of Jewish folks. You sound like my aunts and uncles. :P

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #70 on: June 02, 2015, 03:12:27 AM »
I advise Orthodox, even the ones who dont like me, to avoid yoga, as I dont believe it can be separated from its origins as Hindu meditative prayer.

You will believe what you want to believe, but no.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #71 on: June 02, 2015, 03:19:17 AM »
Spare me the semantic games, PtA.
No semantic games here tonight. I never said that what you're doing here on this thread is not okay. Others have said that, but not I. (Though you know very well how often I've defended wgw against your harassment, a harassment that is now drawing criticism from a host of others.)

You're well known for picking whichever side suits your cause du jour::)
Yes, I will admit that I do that. I don't think anyone will be surprised to hear me admit that I have little tolerance for thoughtless parroting and needless dogmatism, even to the point of being a bit too pedantic for my own good. If I have to play Devil's Advocate from time to time to challenge others to employ some critical thinking about their point of view, though, then I will do that. I see that as providing a valuable service to this forum and appreciate others doing that to me when I get too dogmatic. Contrary to public appearances, I do have some very strong convictions on a lot of issues pertaining to the Orthodox Faith, but I prefer to keep them to myself for the most part, lest I be seen as showing the same kind of dogmatism against which I rant and rail so often.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 03:30:44 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #72 on: June 02, 2015, 03:34:16 AM »
You guys are bickering like a bunch of Jewish folks. You sound like my aunts and uncles. :P
Well, thank you for joining in. ;)
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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #73 on: June 02, 2015, 03:36:07 AM »
Though you know very well how often I've defended wgw against your harassment, a harassment that is now drawing criticism from a host of others.

Responding to wgw's posts, particularly when he is clearly in error, is harassment? You'd better level that charge on other forum members as well, if you're going to be consistent.

You're well known for picking whichever side suits your cause du jour::)
Yes, I will admit that I do that.

At last, an admission. Not before time.

I don't think anyone will be surprised to hear me admit that I have little tolerance for thoughtless parroting and needless dogmatism. If I have to play Devil's Advocate from time to time to challenge others to employ some critical thinking about their point of view, then I will do that.

Presuming to tell people how to think. How humble of you.

You're well known for picking whichever side suits your cause du jour::)
I see that as providing a valuable service to this forum and appreciate others doing that to me when I get too dogmatic.

Heh. Your verbal gymnastics when cornered are well-known around here. Need I provide examples to refresh your memory?
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 03:36:34 AM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #74 on: June 02, 2015, 03:57:07 AM »
Is it a heresy for an Orthodox Christian to believe that Jewish people have a right to be in the land of Israel ?
Yes if you mean a "divine, Biblical right" limited to the Israelis.

The Orthodox Church teaches that God's promise to Abraham's descendants was a promise to His spiritual descendants, not all his physical ones. See Galatians 3-4. Furher, Paul explains explains elsewhere that "Circumcision is of the heart, not of the flesh", and he tells Christians "We are the circumcision". In the Orthodox Church's view, Christians are Abraham's spiritual descendants.
^THIS
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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #75 on: June 02, 2015, 03:58:58 AM »
Vicarius Christi Pope Francis's recent declaration that opposing Israel is antisemitic.
What P.Francis said was that Palestinian leader Mohammed Abbas was "a bit an angel of peace",  :angel: and an Israeli journalist followed up by claiming that P.Francis had emailed him that “anyone who does not recognize... the State of Israel — and their right to exist — is guilty of anti-Semitism.”
http://www.timesofisrael.com/not-recognizing-israel-as-jewish-is-anti-semitic-pope-says
I question whether P.Francis really personally emailed that. At least 46 countries including Catholic ones (eg. Cuba, Lebanon) don't recognize the Israeli state, and Vatican City only recognized it in 1994. Other countries like Nicaragua and Venezuela have severed or suspended relations.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 04:08:45 AM by rakovsky »
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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #76 on: June 02, 2015, 03:59:18 AM »
Is it a heresy for an Orthodox Christian to believe that Jewish people have a right to be in the land of Israel ?
Yes if you mean a "divine, Biblical right" limited to the Israelis.

The Orthodox Church teaches that God's promise to Abraham's descendants was a promise to His spiritual descendants, not all his physical ones. See Galatians 3-4. Furher, Paul explains explains elsewhere that "Circumcision is of the heart, not of the flesh", and he tells Christians "We are the circumcision". In the Orthodox Church's view, Christians are Abraham's spiritual descendants.
^THIS
Thanks.
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #77 on: June 02, 2015, 03:59:28 AM »
Though you know very well how often I've defended wgw against your harassment, a harassment that is now drawing criticism from a host of others.

Responding to wgw's posts, particularly when he is clearly in error, is harassment? You'd better level that charge on other forum members as well, if you're going to be consistent.
It's not just this thread, though. As others have started to notice, you appear to be dogging wgw wherever he goes and criticizing his every post, this even after wgw and others have told you to stop. When it gets to the point that you keep dogging a person even after you've been told repeatedly to leave him alone, then yes that does constitute harassment. If he really is wrong, then it's about time you step aside and let someone else correct him. Maybe then the correction will actually mean something.

You're well known for picking whichever side suits your cause du jour::)
Yes, I will admit that I do that.

At last, an admission. Not before time.

I don't think anyone will be surprised to hear me admit that I have little tolerance for thoughtless parroting and needless dogmatism. If I have to play Devil's Advocate from time to time to challenge others to employ some critical thinking about their point of view, then I will do that.

Presuming to tell people how to think. How humble of you.
No, not telling people how to think. That's what dogmatists do. Challenging people to think for themselves rather than just parrot the party line... That's what I try to do.

You're well known for picking whichever side suits your cause du jour::)
I see that as providing a valuable service to this forum and appreciate others doing that to me when I get too dogmatic.

Heh. Your verbal gymnastics when cornered are well-known around here. Need I provide examples to refresh your memory?
I've never been cornered by the likes of you, so don't flatter yourself. As far as my "verbal gymnastics", you don't need to refresh my memory, for I am very well aware of them. I don't forget things easily.


Now I didn't come to this thread to spar with you, regardless of what you might like to do. I will confess that I have nothing of substance to offer to an actual discussion of the OP, so I would rather not continue this tangent. I also need to retire for the night so I can arise rested for work and school tomorrow, seeing that it's about 1:00 a.m. here. If you wish to have the last word yet again, I'll go ahead and allow you to do that. Just don't hold your breath waiting for me to reply.
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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #78 on: June 02, 2015, 04:01:52 AM »
Quote
I will confess that I have nothing of substance to offer to an actual discussion of the OP,

Situation normal.  ::)
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #79 on: June 02, 2015, 04:06:30 AM »
You guys are bickering like a bunch of Jewish folks. You sound like my aunts and uncles. :P

I should TELL you, boychik!
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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #80 on: June 02, 2015, 04:07:36 AM »
I've never been cornered by the likes of you, so don't flatter yourself. As far as my "verbal gymnastics", you don't need to refresh my memory, for I am very well aware of them. I don't forget things easily.

You've obviously forgotten this:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,32451.msg1145696.html#msg1145696 (and up to reply #75)

There are more, but this will do for now.


Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Theophania

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #81 on: June 02, 2015, 04:28:30 AM »
Anyone else thinking of Katherine and Petruchio?
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #82 on: June 02, 2015, 06:57:14 AM »
I hope the council next year issues a revised canon reversing the zjewish canon and replacing it with one that explicitly says what you just outlined. 

Do you know anything about agenda of the council? Because it's the second post of yours I see that makes an impression you do not.

Recently been working with an electric instalation in a kovher meaet processing factory. There are a handful of Orthodox Jew inspectors (to write something that relates to the OP).
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 06:59:24 AM by mike »
Hyperdox Herman, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - fb, Eastern Orthodox Christian News - tt

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Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #83 on: June 02, 2015, 08:17:02 AM »
Theyre actually a specialized type of Rabbi I think.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 08:25:05 AM by wgw »
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #84 on: June 02, 2015, 09:14:33 AM »
Racism is a heresy. That's why I am personally against Zionism. Also, I don't really know what constitutes 'anti-semitism', the concept still somewhat alludes me. Irrational bigotry on the part of anyone should be avoided and rightly condemned. If, however, by antisemitism, you mean criticizing a) Israel, b) Judaism or c) Jews, then it's entirely in keeping with Western political freedom to do so. I have a right to criticize a) the Vatican, b) Roman Catholicism and c) Roman Catholics, don't I? Just like I have the right to criticize a) Saudi Arabia, b) Islam and c) Muslims. Bigotry is bigotry, criticism against institutions, beliefs and people is 100% warranted, and anyone who tries to throw around these outrageous neologisms to stifle people's freedom of speech or personal opinions, even though they are entirely within their rights to have those opinions, should just keep quiet and leave the civilized world alone.

I say these remarks in light of Vicarius Christi Pope Francis's recent declaration that opposing Israel is antisemitic. Opposing Nazi Germany wasn't anti-German, opposing the USSR wasn't anti-Russian. Irrational neologisms will not dominate the ballgame on the Israel-Palestine conflict no matter how much Francis' shines his pearly whites in front of the camera in support of Israel and Judaism.



That's Pope Francis to you. Even though we are an Orthodox forum community, we do demand a lot more respect for Catholic clerics than to call any Pope of Rome such a rudely familiar name as "Pope Frank."  -PtA

The main problem with your position is the part about criticizing Jews.  Once can legitmately criticize Israeli politics and the Jewish faith but one should never criticize the Jews; criticizing an ethnoreligious group is an act of bigotry.  One may make statements of historical fact but even then, racism can occur.

I dont ceiticize the Turkish people or blame them for the Year of the Sword, the genocide against Christisns a century ago.  I blame the Ottoman Emoire and its military dictators.  I dont criticize Arabs for the Islamic state; I criticize one of three major Arab religions, or rather a particular sect of it, and the individuals who comprise the fighting force and leadership of ISIL (the other two Arab religions of note besides Islam are the derivative Druze faith and of course Christianity; there are even Christian bedouins).  I criticize most of Hinduism but love Indian people including Hindus and am friends with several; I sisagree with their religion but admire their piety.  However, I am troubled by the Hindu nationalism of the new BJP President; I miss his oredecessor, eho struck me as a decent Sikh.  But Indian politics in general I think have failed horribly; I wish the British had simoly turned power over to the old Princely States, who did admittedly have an opt out from what I understand, but Gandhi was too powerful to resist.  Im not a huge fsn of Gandhi; the British Raj ahd its dark side to be sure, but I daresay it was vastly superior to the Mogul Rule.  But I love Indians and support the right to national self determination, and the Indians made their choice.  I think every people should have the right to a nation state if they desire it, and we humans need to work out a way to live together.

I dont criticize the Jews for anything.  I object to some policies of Israel and the Chief Rabinnate and Im nit a fan of Kabbalah or Chasidic Judaism, but I love the atwlmud, Jewish liturgy when lerformed solemnly with a choir and a good cantor, a capella, the moral and ethical code of the Orthodox Jews, the "litvish haredim" of Lithuania, the surviving Choral Synagogues of Eastern Europe and rhe UK and rheir beautiful architecture and music, the Karaites and Samaritans, and the Jewish foundation of Christianity.

Although I agree with Fr. Andrew Stephen Dammick that Rabinnical Judaism postdates Christianity, by at least 35 years, as it was formed when the destruction of the Second Temple and especially after the diaspora following the later Bar Kochba revolt (a true false Messiah he was, leading the suffering Jewish people to horrible ruin), when the loss of the sacrificial cult and especially the Sanhedrin made the Oral Torah unsustainable as oral tradition.  Thus Orthodox Judaism was born kf a need of Pharisees to write down their interperstion kf the Torah and the Tanakh and unite what was left of Judaism into a decentralized faith led by Rabbis; jurists and community leaders ro replace the Temple hierarchy.  However some resented the power of the Rabbis and, remebering the Sadducees, created Karaite Judaism in the 6th or 7th century, a sola scriptura faith similkar to Baptism in the degree to ehich it still maintains unwritten traditions without admitting it, while at the same time granting individual Karaites autonomy ona wide range of minor issues.  This is a contrast from Orthodox Judaism; the Charedim are especially authoritarian and the Rebbes delayed emigrating from zeurope to America in the 2930s due to the Nazi threat, for fear American freedoms would undermine their faith, according to a documentary cohosted by Leonard Nimoy.  They preferred the communal stability the authoritarian regimes of central and Eastern Europe provided.  Karaites are egalitarian and have historically allowed women to serve as Hazzans, or Cantors, leading a congregation in prayer.  There are teo groups, the authentically Jewish Karaites who largely lived in Egypt in the past, who have a synagogue in Daly City snd have recently begun actively accepting converts, and the Crimean Tatars who embraced rhis religion shortly before St. Vladimir thr Great began his search for a new religion for the Rus; theirs was a faith his envoys evaluated.  In the 20th century these Karaites have moved away from Judaism and embraced a more Turkic identity.

So thats what I love about Judaism. 

I think its wrong to criticize any ethnic group for any reason; with ethnicities that are orimarily tied together by one faith, one must be esoecially careful not to offend.  The Greeks, Armenians, and Copts are examples of Orthodox ethnoreligious groups; someone opposed to our fsith must be careful to criticize the religion and not the people.  And Ive seen some despicable Protestant ministers criticize the Greeks, Armenians, and Coots as nationalities, on the grounds that they are idolaters and God will punish them to the fourth generation, and that is why thise people are impoverished in their homeland.  Never ind the huge success of sll three groups in business abroad.  Actually I believe Im the poorest member of the Syriac parish where I firsr became Orthodox, and attend infrequently, and I live decently enough.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #85 on: June 02, 2015, 09:19:41 AM »
Anyone else thinking of Katherine and Petruchio?
LOL!!! So, when do we get to see the taming? This has been an awfully long play.
God bless!

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #86 on: June 02, 2015, 11:10:09 AM »
Anyone else thinking of Katherine and Petruchio?
LOL!!! So, when do we get to see the taming? This has been an awfully long play.

Awkward
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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #87 on: June 02, 2015, 01:24:01 PM »
My my!! I will not be able to continue with this thread since it became too complicated. But the answer I got are the following:

Racism, including Antisemitism are opposed by the Orthodox Church, hence, any racist or antisemitic needs to avoid such sin.

The Orthodox Church believes that the Church is the new Israel, nevertheless, it doesn't go further than that and doesn't declare any dogma regarding the issue of today.

Thanks to those who replied, specially wgw whom I enjoyed his replies which were eye-opening.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 01:26:16 PM by Raylight »

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #88 on: June 02, 2015, 01:32:54 PM »
The Orthodox Church believes that the Church is the new Israel, nevertheless, it doesn't go further than that and doesn't declare any dogma regarding the issue of today.
However, it would also contradict Church teaching to make a dogma demanding support for the current political system there (as I mentioned in my first post to you), and in that sense it would be "heresy" to do so.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #89 on: June 02, 2015, 02:00:00 PM »
@wgw

It's important to criticize religious groups because religious groups are responsible for their co-religionist's actions. If the Muslim community doesn't reign in it's mujahideen-sympathizing brethren, it's only going to get worse. It's the same with racist Christians who lived in the American South in the past... and present, and it's the same with any other religious group. True, religious groups are not uniform, but it's precisely because they are not uniform that people should criticize them when certain unholy elements exist within the group that need to be expunged. Religious groups should be criticized when there are parts of that group, racists, terrorists, paedophiles or whatever you like, that are dangerous to other people are not rejected by the religious group.

So, you seem to be confusing criticism of religious groups and ethnic groups. I agree, the latter is bigotry.

I have criticized Muslims on the following point: that is, they just assume, without any evidence that people who know anything about Islam are destined to become Muslims. This is almost universal. If you talk to a Muslim about Islam, they'll inquire about you converting to their religion. When pressed on why I am not a Muslim, I just tell them that there is no evidence for their position that convinces me. Yet, they've never understood that. It's almost completely foreign to their psychology.

Now, if they addressed a) the historical dilemma with their Sunnah, b) the lack of Tashkeel and i'jam in early Qur'anic manuscripts, despite the Qur'an being the immutable word of Allah, c) the fact that the earliest sources show Mecca wasn't a trading post, and d) that the earliest Muslims, for six decades after Muhammad's alleged death, didn't have any inkling that they were Muslims, worshipped at Christian holy sites and used the cross in their iconography and coins, then maybe we'll get somewhere. The problem is, they always just assume their position is true and that anyone who reads about Islam will just become Muslim overnight. They've never even come close to addressing any of those points. Even if we assume the authenticity of the Islamic story, they still have to contend with the contents of that story, which are in themselves problematic. But, like I said, almost none of this has been addressed to any substantive level.

Anyway, that's my criticism of Muslims but I certainly don't critique Pakistanis, Bengalis, Indians, Egyptians, Indonesians, Africans, Malaysians or Iranians because of this. Just Muslims who think their religion is correct, without listening or dealing with the opposing arguments.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 02:21:00 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline Theophania

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #90 on: June 02, 2015, 05:02:27 PM »
Anyone else thinking of Katherine and Petruchio?
LOL!!! So, when do we get to see the taming? This has been an awfully long play.

I don't know, but I sure hope it's sooner rather than later.
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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #91 on: June 02, 2015, 05:43:29 PM »
Quote
and the Rebbes delayed emigrating from zeurope to America in the 2930s due to the Nazi threat,

*GASP* TIME TRAVELLING RABBIS!

I must write about this. :laugh:
I do stuff.

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #92 on: June 02, 2015, 05:44:22 PM »
My my!! I will not be able to continue with this thread since it became too complicated. But the answer I got are the following:

Racism, including Antisemitism are opposed by the Orthodox Church, hence, any racist or antisemitic needs to avoid such sin.

The Orthodox Church believes that the Church is the new Israel, nevertheless, it doesn't go further than that and doesn't declare any dogma regarding the issue of today.

Thanks to those who replied, specially wgw whom I enjoyed his replies which were eye-opening.


Looks like you got the result that you wanted, as usual.

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #93 on: June 02, 2015, 05:53:22 PM »
The Orthodox Church believes that the Church is the new Israel, nevertheless, it doesn't go further than that and doesn't declare any dogma regarding the issue of today.

Doesn't declare a dogma regarding which issue?

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #94 on: June 02, 2015, 06:59:14 PM »
Quote
and the Rebbes delayed emigrating from zeurope to America in the 2930s due to the Nazi threat,

*GASP* TIME TRAVELLING RABBIS!

I must write about this. :laugh:

Wow, embarassing typo.  Its the iPad keyboard.  I need to post more from my laptop or console now that my health is improved.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Raylight

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #95 on: June 02, 2015, 07:16:05 PM »
My my!! I will not be able to continue with this thread since it became too complicated. But the answer I got are the following:

Racism, including Antisemitism are opposed by the Orthodox Church, hence, any racist or antisemitic needs to avoid such sin.

The Orthodox Church believes that the Church is the new Israel, nevertheless, it doesn't go further than that and doesn't declare any dogma regarding the issue of today.

Thanks to those who replied, specially wgw whom I enjoyed his replies which were eye-opening.


Looks like you got the result that you wanted, as usual.


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Offline wgw

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #96 on: June 02, 2015, 07:49:41 PM »
I am glad I was able to provide you useful info Raylight.  Do you have any questions or anything youd like me to look into for you on this subject?
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Raylight

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #97 on: June 02, 2015, 08:54:55 PM »
I am glad I was able to provide you useful info Raylight.  Do you have any questions or anything youd like me to look into for you on this subject?

So far no. But I see that you have a good knowledge on Judaism which is something I admire about any person who knows about other beliefs rather than remain ignorant about them.

Thank wgw :)

Offline Jackson02

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #98 on: May 28, 2017, 10:11:57 AM »

The Jewish people have gone through a lot for the last 2000 years. Unfortunately, some of that was done by some Christians who were driven by blind hate and false belief that Christ would approve of such barbaric acts. I oppose antisemitism and any sign of such hate, and I do not tolerate those who hold antisemitic views in particular and those who hold racist views in general. ( By " I do not tolerate..." I mean, I wouldn't be friend of such person. I already had a friend who is antisemitic and lets just say I never saw such hate like I saw in him ).

Does the Eastern Orthodox Church have any declaration on the issue of antisemitism ? Is it a heresy for an Orthodox Christian to believe that Jewish people have a right to be in the land of Israel ?

At the mean time, I pray to God for peace in the Holy Land. That may Arabs and Jews live together in peace in the city of peace.

In the 2,000 years of Christian tradition we Orthodox have not been perfect.  We have sinned against God, each other, and just about every group of human beings that exist, including Roman Catholics, Protestants and Jews. 

Antisemitism has waxed and waned throughout history and it has taken place all over the world and especially in Western, Central and Eastern Europe, wherever there have been large populations of Jews.  This is not to excuse antisemitism, but to point out that being Orthodox does not necessarily cause it.  Antisemitism has occurred in Roman Catholic, Protestant, Islamic, Orthodox and Secular societies. 

It is true that in the past Jews in certain parts of Europe were treated terribly at times.  The Jews were expelled from Spain in the middle ages. The Crusades gave rise to all sorts of perversions and hideous antisemitic acts against the Jews all over Europe. Eastern France had a hideous outbreak of antisemitism in Strasbourg in the medieval period that results in hundreds of Jews have their property stolen and being burned alive. Germany, Poland and Russia, all three with rather large Jewish populations at some point in their history, varied throughout their history from being mildly tolerant of Jews, to restricting them, to great prejudice against them, pogroms against them, to downright genocide.

I would counsel you to learn to distinguish between the secular gov'ts of Germany, Poland, and Russia and between the Lutheran, Roman Catholic, and Orthodox Churches respectively.  Remember that acts of gov't are not the acts of particular churches.  This doesn't mean that we ignore antisemitism, but that its causes are complex and cannot be reduced to the existence of another religious group.

I don't know if any Ecumenical Council has ever addressed the subject of antisemitism.  Nevertheless, since we in the Orthodox Church do not believe in inherited sin and guilt, it would be very wrong and inconsistent of us to blame today's Jewish people for the sins of their fathers. They had nothing to do with that and should be left alone in peace.

I think the most charitable thing I could say is that the Orthodox Church and the Jewish people have different understandings of who Jesus Christ is.  And neither one is likely to change their viewpoint ever.  Therefore, let us learn to be neighborly and kind to one another, and not argue about our religious differences.

Regarding your question about the "right" of modern day Jews to be in Israel:  That all depends on what you mean by the word "right."  Orthodox Christians do not believe that God Himself re-established the nation of Israel in 1948 as a homeland for the world's Jewish people, regardless of what American fundagelicals might believe about the matter.  Orthodox Christians look upon the modern secular nation of Israel as of no more divine in its institution, no more "special to God" than any other country on the face of the earth.  Modern Israel is no more special to God than Bolivia, Mongolia or Iceland and to treat it as such and to give it "carte blanche" to treat the Palestinians like dirt (many of whom are Orthodox Christians) is to make an idol out of that modern nation state. 

This doesn't mean we have to get all emotional about Israel.  Just remember that there's nothing special or divine about it and the Knesset has the obligation to treat all Israeli citizens and residents with the human dignity that they deserve.
Your comment made me laugh, My old Jewish Studies teacher (a Chasidic Rabbi) insisted that the six day war victory was a miracle from God!  ::)
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Offline Jackson02

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Re: Orthodox Christianity and Jewish people.
« Reply #99 on: May 28, 2017, 10:33:47 AM »
If you didn't find anything bad in the Talmud you didn't look hard enough.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2017, 10:35:06 AM by Jackson02 »
"Don't keep Orthodoxy to yourself as if it were some private treasure. Share it!"

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