Author Topic: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox  (Read 4974 times)

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Offline Cyrillic

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Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« on: May 16, 2015, 06:54:39 AM »
What language do the Ukrainian Orthodox use it the liturgy? Church Slavonic or Ukrainian?

I've heard that the Ukrainian Greek Catholics use Ukrainian in the liturgy.

Offline Theophania

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2015, 07:17:51 AM »
I attended a Ukrainian parish for a while. It was always Ukrainian on the rare occasion we used anything other than English.
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2015, 07:49:11 AM »
I think it depends on the parish, a major factor being how conservative they are and how many of them are Ukrainian speakers. I have been to sizable Ukrainian Catholic churches in the US where there were very very few native Ukrainian immigrants and the service was all in English.

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2015, 08:29:35 AM »
The UOC USA pewbook at the UOC parish here has side by side vernacular Ukrainian and English  .  It was printed by the UOC USA .

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2015, 08:41:06 AM »
Ukrainian Orthodox Church uses Cs mainly however there are a couple of places that have services in Ukrainian. Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada and Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the UsA use Ukrainian and English, the latter probably more English.

Kiev Patriarchate and UAOC use Ukrainian.
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Offline IreneOlinyk

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2015, 09:10:01 AM »
Ukrainian Orthodox Church uses Cs mainly however there are a couple of places that have services in Ukrainian. Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada and Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the UsA use Ukrainian and English, the latter probably more English.

Kiev Patriarchate and UAOC use Ukrainian.

Mike is correct.  When I visited Ukraine the UOC-MP uses Church Slavonic except in a few city parishes.  The UOCC (Canada) started using modern Ukrainian shortly after it was established in 1918.  The Canadian Church has continued to use the same translation with only slight changes or corrections.

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2015, 09:13:40 AM »
Ukrainian Orthodox Church uses Cs mainly however there are a couple of places that have services in Ukrainian. Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada and Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the UsA use Ukrainian and English, the latter probably more English.

Kiev Patriarchate and UAOC use Ukrainian.

Thanks, Mike. Interesting.

Why does the UOC in America and Canada use Ukrainian instead of Church Slavonic? Do they use CS in other countries?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2015, 09:14:10 AM by Cyrillic »

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2015, 09:32:10 AM »
Why does the UOC in America and Canada use Ukrainian instead of Church Slavonic?

They both take their origins, ideals and people from various iterations of UAOCs. And translation of services was one of the main goals of that movement. I do not think they ever used Cs.

Quote
Do they use CS in other countries?

Wouldn't be surprised if the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Diaspora (alias UOC-Usa goes by outside of the Us) used spanish or Portuguese in Latin America.
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Offline IreneOlinyk

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2015, 09:39:51 AM »


Why does the UOC in America and Canada use Ukrainian instead of Church Slavonic? Do they use CS in other countries?

For areas of Ukraine that used to be part of the Russian Empire, Church Slavonic in its Russian promounciation/ recension was forced upon the clergy & people.  In Bukovyna, which was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Ukrainian pronounciation/recension was retained. 
So, for areas of Ukraine that were part of the Russian Empire, Church Slavonic in its Russian recension and sermons in Russian were seen as tools of assimilation & Russian chauvinism.  That is why modern Ukrainian for the liturgy and for sermons was introduced. 
In Canada when the UOCC Was founded in 1918 one of its founding principles was the use of modern Ukrainian in the liturgy, sermons, teaching matierials and the church newspaper.

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2015, 11:52:46 AM »


Why does the UOC in America and Canada use Ukrainian instead of Church Slavonic? Do they use CS in other countries?

For areas of Ukraine that used to be part of the Russian Empire, Church Slavonic in its Russian promounciation/ recension was forced upon the clergy & people.  In Bukovyna, which was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Ukrainian pronounciation/recension was retained. 
So, for areas of Ukraine that were part of the Russian Empire, Church Slavonic in its Russian recension and sermons in Russian were seen as tools of assimilation & Russian chauvinism.  That is why modern Ukrainian for the liturgy and for sermons was introduced. 
In Canada when the UOCC Was founded in 1918 one of its founding principles was the use of modern Ukrainian in the liturgy, sermons, teaching matierials and the church newspaper.

Irene is right. To this day in Slovakia the Orthodox and Greek Catholics, when using CS do not use the Russian form of CS. You can hear this in the Panachida I posted from Svidnik in easren Slovakia. It's how I was taught and I got used to being congratulated by Ukrainians and criticised by Russians

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2015, 11:41:05 PM »
These forms of Church Slavonic, are they akin to accents?  Basically ways of pronouncing certain words, et cetera? 

I would expect my collection of the ecclesiastical music composed by Ukranian Catholic / Amerixan composer Roman Hurko would be in the Ukranian accent and the vast amount of material I have recorded by Russian choirs would be in the Russian style?  But are these things a non CS speaker can even notice?   When I listen to East Syriac or West Syriac music the difference is shockimg because of the preponderance of As or Os, but here I would guess the distinction is more subtle.
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2015, 12:01:12 AM »
But are these things a non CS speaker can even notice?   


Yes, they would be, for those who have ears to listen.
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2015, 12:20:58 AM »
These forms of Church Slavonic, are they akin to accents?  Basically ways of pronouncing certain words, et cetera? 

I would expect my collection of the ecclesiastical music composed by Ukranian Catholic / Amerixan composer Roman Hurko would be in the Ukranian accent and the vast amount of material I have recorded by Russian choirs would be in the Russian style?  But are these things a non CS speaker can even notice?   When I listen to East Syriac or West Syriac music the difference is shockimg because of the preponderance of As or Os, but here I would guess the distinction is more subtle.
Most noticeable is the lack of hard G in Ukrainian and Rusyn.  Hospodi not Gospodi.  Boh not Bog.  There is a hard G but it is for loan words as far as I can tell.  There are others.
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2015, 08:02:00 AM »
But are these things a non CS speaker can even notice?   

There are no Cs speakers. Cs is a dead language.
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Offline Tikhon29605

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2015, 09:27:05 AM »
These forms of Church Slavonic, are they akin to accents?  Basically ways of pronouncing certain words, et cetera? 

I would expect my collection of the ecclesiastical music composed by Ukranian Catholic / Amerixan composer Roman Hurko would be in the Ukranian accent and the vast amount of material I have recorded by Russian choirs would be in the Russian style?  But are these things a non CS speaker can even notice?   When I listen to East Syriac or West Syriac music the difference is shockimg because of the preponderance of As or Os, but here I would guess the distinction is more subtle.
Most noticeable is the lack of hard G in Ukrainian and Rusyn.  Hospodi not Gospodi.  Boh not Bog.  There is a hard G but it is for loan words as far as I can tell.  There are others.

Deacon Lance nailed it!  I cannot speak any Slavic language.  But I can and do notice the difference in pronunciation from Russian pronunciation of Church Slavonic and Ukrainian pronunciation of the same. Once even at my parish (we have several choir directors) and we were going to sing the responses to the Augmented Litany in Slavonic and there was, shall I say, a little "discussion" between the two directors on how to properly pronounce "Gospodi/Hospodi".  I stood there not saying a word.  Finally, it was decided that if the Ukrainian director was directing, we would sing "Hospodi", if the Russian guy was directing, we would sing, "Gospodi'.  Problem solved! :) 

Offline IreneOlinyk

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2015, 10:57:33 AM »
These forms of Church Slavonic, are they akin to accents?  Basically ways of pronouncing certain words, et cetera? 

I would expect my collection of the ecclesiastical music composed by Ukranian Catholic / Amerixan composer Roman Hurko would be in the Ukranian accent and the vast amount of material I have recorded by Russian choirs would be in the Russian style?  But are these things a non CS speaker can even notice?   When I listen to East Syriac or West Syriac music the difference is shockimg because of the preponderance of As or Os, but here I would guess the distinction is more subtle.
Most noticeable is the lack of hard G in Ukrainian and Rusyn.  Hospodi not Gospodi.  Boh not Bog.  There is a hard G but it is for loan words as far as I can tell.  There are others.

Deacon Lance nailed it!  I cannot speak any Slavic language.  But I can and do notice the difference in pronunciation from Russian pronunciation of Church Slavonic and Ukrainian pronunciation of the same. Once even at my parish (we have several choir directors) and we were going to sing the responses to the Augmented Litany in Slavonic and there was, shall I say, a little "discussion" between the two directors on how to properly pronounce "Gospodi/Hospodi".  I stood there not saying a word.  Finally, it was decided that if the Ukrainian director was directing, we would sing "Hospodi", if the Russian guy was directing, we would sing, "Gospodi'.  Problem solved! :)

You said "I cannot speak any Slavic language. "  So please do not trivialize the issue.  It is NOT just one simple letter.   When the Georgian Orthodox Church (a former autocephalous Church) and Georgia became part of the Russian Empire, that church was forced to have the liturgy celebrated in Church Slavonic.  Georgian is not a Slavic language.  The Finns who were Orthodox also had the liturgy cleebrated in Church Slavonic and Finnish is a Finno-Ugric language.

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2015, 10:59:07 AM »
The difference between Georgian and slavonic is slightly greater than between Russian and Ukrainian pronounciations of Cs. It is a trivial matter.
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Offline Tikhon29605

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2015, 11:20:53 AM »
These forms of Church Slavonic, are they akin to accents?  Basically ways of pronouncing certain words, et cetera? 

I would expect my collection of the ecclesiastical music composed by Ukranian Catholic / Amerixan composer Roman Hurko would be in the Ukranian accent and the vast amount of material I have recorded by Russian choirs would be in the Russian style?  But are these things a non CS speaker can even notice?   When I listen to East Syriac or West Syriac music the difference is shockimg because of the preponderance of As or Os, but here I would guess the distinction is more subtle.
Most noticeable is the lack of hard G in Ukrainian and Rusyn.  Hospodi not Gospodi.  Boh not Bog.  There is a hard G but it is for loan words as far as I can tell.  There are others.

Deacon Lance nailed it!  I cannot speak any Slavic language.  But I can and do notice the difference in pronunciation from Russian pronunciation of Church Slavonic and Ukrainian pronunciation of the same. Once even at my parish (we have several choir directors) and we were going to sing the responses to the Augmented Litany in Slavonic and there was, shall I say, a little "discussion" between the two directors on how to properly pronounce "Gospodi/Hospodi".  I stood there not saying a word.  Finally, it was decided that if the Ukrainian director was directing, we would sing "Hospodi", if the Russian guy was directing, we would sing, "Gospodi'.  Problem solved! :)

You said "I cannot speak any Slavic language. "  So please do not trivialize the issue.  It is NOT just one simple letter.   When the Georgian Orthodox Church (a former autocephalous Church) and Georgia became part of the Russian Empire, that church was forced to have the liturgy celebrated in Church Slavonic.  Georgian is not a Slavic language.  The Finns who were Orthodox also had the liturgy cleebrated in Church Slavonic and Finnish is a Finno-Ugric language.

Please do not be so hypersensitive.

I was not trivializing the issue nor do I  think the difference is just one simple letter.

I might be more on your side than you think.

I realize that modern Ukrainian is a separate language from modern Russian.  I respect that.  And I see nothing wrong with the Ukrainians using their own language.  In fact, it makes perfect sense to me.  I am also aware of the history of Imperial Russia where the Russian version of everything was forced on the entire Empire, even if the people were not ethnic Russians. I am not defending that either. In particular, it seems rather silly to have forced the ancient and venerable Church of Georgia to worship in Slavonic, when Georgian is not even a Slavic language and the Georgian language itself was the language of the people. 

All I am saying is that I recognize and respect the legitimate differences in how Ukrainians, Carpatho-Rusyns and Russians pronounce and sing the Church Slavonic language.  It is a difference that I can hear. I am certainly not saying that one is better than the other.

For instance, I have studied Latin.  And if I hear a choir sing in Latin, I can notice a difference between how Germans pronounce Latin and how Americans pronounce Latin.  Its a very slight difference when sung, but if you listen for it, esp. in the music of a Mozart Mass, you can detect an ever so slight difference.

I have had French friends of mine tell me that they can tell the difference between "French" French, Swiss French, and Canadian French very easily.  Even though I studied French for 4 years, that is a nuanced difference that eludes me.  I cannot tell any difference.  It all sounds the same to me.  But then I am not a native speaker.

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2015, 11:23:27 AM »
and the Georgian language itself was the language of the people. 

From what I've heard from Georgians liturgical Georgian is as close to modern Georgian as Cs to modern slavic languages, maybe even not so.
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Offline Tikhon29605

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2015, 11:31:16 AM »
and the Georgian language itself was the language of the people. 

From what I've heard from Georgians liturgical Georgian is as close to modern Georgian as Cs to modern slavic languages, maybe even not so.

Oh well.  I still bet the Georgians themselves prefer Liturgical Georgian over Church Slavonic, since it would still be the language of their people, albeit in an older and more archaic form.

Reminds me of when I studied Chaucer's Canterbury Tales in Middle English.  We could understand some of it, bits and pieces here and there. But thank goodness for the modern English translation on the facing page.  Without that I would have been lost.  I have had Russians tell me that Church Slavonic compares to modern Russian the way Chaucer's Middle English compares to our Modern English. Little bits and pieces come through every now and then, but on the whole its a completely separate language.

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2015, 01:32:19 PM »
What language do the Ukrainian Orthodox use it the liturgy? Church Slavonic or Ukrainian?

I've heard that the Ukrainian Greek Catholics use Ukrainian in the liturgy.


Has nothing to do with the local area.
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2015, 01:39:58 PM »
What language do the Ukrainian Orthodox use it the liturgy? Church Slavonic or Ukrainian?

I've heard that the Ukrainian Greek Catholics use Ukrainian in the liturgy.


Has nothing to do with the local area.

Thank you for this insightful contribution.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2015, 01:40:11 PM by Cyrillic »

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2015, 06:52:32 PM »
These forms of Church Slavonic, are they akin to accents?  Basically ways of pronouncing certain words, et cetera? 

I would expect my collection of the ecclesiastical music composed by Ukranian Catholic / Amerixan composer Roman Hurko would be in the Ukranian accent and the vast amount of material I have recorded by Russian choirs would be in the Russian style?  But are these things a non CS speaker can even notice?   When I listen to East Syriac or West Syriac music the difference is shockimg because of the preponderance of As or Os, but here I would guess the distinction is more subtle.
Most noticeable is the lack of hard G in Ukrainian and Rusyn.  Hospodi not Gospodi.  Boh not Bog.  There is a hard G but it is for loan words as far as I can tell.  There are others.

As far as these words go, the people of my Old Believer parish also pronounce them, and related words, without the hard G, though you'd never hear anyone self-identify as anything but Russian.
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2015, 06:59:17 PM »
What language do the Ukrainian Orthodox use it the liturgy? Church Slavonic or Ukrainian?

I've heard that the Ukrainian Greek Catholics use Ukrainian in the liturgy.

There is no Ukrainian language.

There is only Russian and the language that the Court of Austria-Hungary as an Vatican agent managed to produce and separate from a Russian dialect.
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2015, 08:05:33 PM »
These forms of Church Slavonic, are they akin to accents?  Basically ways of pronouncing certain words, et cetera? 

I would expect my collection of the ecclesiastical music composed by Ukranian Catholic / Amerixan composer Roman Hurko would be in the Ukranian accent and the vast amount of material I have recorded by Russian choirs would be in the Russian style?  But are these things a non CS speaker can even notice?   When I listen to East Syriac or West Syriac music the difference is shockimg because of the preponderance of As or Os, but here I would guess the distinction is more subtle.
Most noticeable is the lack of hard G in Ukrainian and Rusyn.  Hospodi not Gospodi.  Boh not Bog.  There is a hard G but it is for loan words as far as I can tell.  There are others.

As far as these words go, the people of my Old Believer parish also pronounce them, and related words, without the hard G, though you'd never hear anyone self-identify as anything but Russian.


Mine (not Old Believers but rather 'sectarians') as well.   I have been trying to research this for years, and the best I got is that there is a 'range' of dialects in Russian that encompasses large areas as you head south and west -towards- Ukraine, that have a different dialect, including the lack of a hard G and other sound changes.

So there is not some magical -line- in the language.....

« Last Edit: May 17, 2015, 08:05:50 PM by DeniseDenise »
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2015, 08:07:35 PM »
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2015, 10:06:23 PM »
These forms of Church Slavonic, are they akin to accents?  Basically ways of pronouncing certain words, et cetera? 

I would expect my collection of the ecclesiastical music composed by Ukranian Catholic / Amerixan composer Roman Hurko would be in the Ukranian accent and the vast amount of material I have recorded by Russian choirs would be in the Russian style?  But are these things a non CS speaker can even notice?   When I listen to East Syriac or West Syriac music the difference is shockimg because of the preponderance of As or Os, but here I would guess the distinction is more subtle.
Most noticeable is the lack of hard G in Ukrainian and Rusyn.  Hospodi not Gospodi.  Boh not Bog.  There is a hard G but it is for loan words as far as I can tell.  There are others.

As far as these words go, the people of my Old Believer parish also pronounce them, and related words, without the hard G, though you'd never hear anyone self-identify as anything but Russian.


Mine (not Old Believers but rather 'sectarians') as well.   I have been trying to research this for years, and the best I got is that there is a 'range' of dialects in Russian that encompasses large areas as you head south and west -towards- Ukraine, that have a different dialect, including the lack of a hard G and other sound changes.

So there is not some magical -line- in the language.....

While a segment of the population of my greater Old Believer community has Turkey as their place of origin, the majority actually come from Siberia and the Russian Far East, with most everyone locally belonging to the latter.

If there are lines, they're all over the place, crossing at odd angles and in odd manners.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2015, 10:09:07 PM by Hawkeye »
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2015, 01:30:31 AM »
These forms of Church Slavonic, are they akin to accents?  Basically ways of pronouncing certain words, et cetera? 

I would expect my collection of the ecclesiastical music composed by Ukranian Catholic / Amerixan composer Roman Hurko would be in the Ukranian accent and the vast amount of material I have recorded by Russian choirs would be in the Russian style?  But are these things a non CS speaker can even notice?   When I listen to East Syriac or West Syriac music the difference is shockimg because of the preponderance of As or Os, but here I would guess the distinction is more subtle.
Most noticeable is the lack of hard G in Ukrainian and Rusyn.  Hospodi not Gospodi.  Boh not Bog.  There is a hard G but it is for loan words as far as I can tell.  There are others.

As far as these words go, the people of my Old Believer parish also pronounce them, and related words, without the hard G, though you'd never hear anyone self-identify as anything but Russian.


Mine (not Old Believers but rather 'sectarians') as well.   I have been trying to research this for years, and the best I got is that there is a 'range' of dialects in Russian that encompasses large areas as you head south and west -towards- Ukraine, that have a different dialect, including the lack of a hard G and other sound changes.

So there is not some magical -line- in the language.....

While a segment of the population of my greater Old Believer community has Turkey as their place of origin, the majority actually come from Siberia and the Russian Far East, with most everyone locally belonging to the latter.

If there are lines, they're all over the place, crossing at odd angles and in odd manners.


I am going to give you what I know of such things and fully admit they are possibly wrong.

But at some point before the Old Believers ended up in Siberia, China, Turkey etc. were they not from elsewhere in Russia?  And either fled persecution and or migrated to retain some freedoms? I had read that they had.

Given that they also kept to themselves culturally their language patterns would not have changed to their 'new locale's' dialect very fast if ever.

My ancestors don't speak Turkish instead of Russian or speak Armenian even though they lived in both of those places for several centuries. They speak the Russian of the province they migrated FROM before that.
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2015, 02:11:57 AM »
...

My ancestors don't speak Turkish instead of Russian or speak Armenian even though they lived in both of those places for several centuries. They speak the Russian of the province they migrated FROM before that.


That is because both Armenian and Turkish do not belong to the group of Slavic languages.

If they had lived among other Slavic nation, they would have adopted the local dialect.

Spaniards that emigrate to, say, Mexico, or Brits that emigrate to, say, Australia, will adopt local dialects, too, but if Spaniards emigrate to, say, Australia, while Brits emigrate to, say, Mexico, they will retain their language in an unchanged form.
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2015, 02:21:35 AM »
...

My ancestors don't speak Turkish instead of Russian or speak Armenian even though they lived in both of those places for several centuries. They speak the Russian of the province they migrated FROM before that.


That is because both Armenian and Turkish do not belong to the group of Slavic languages.

If they had lived among other Slavic nation, they would have adopted the local dialect.

Spaniards that emigrate to, say, Mexico, or Brits that emigrate to, say, Australia, will adopt local dialects, too, but if Spaniards emigrate to, say, Australia, while Brits emigrate to, say, Mexico, they will retain their language in an unchanged form.

You have not met many people with accents then? 

By your logic there would over time be no such thing.

Sorry you are in error in this case because you have neglected to account for social prestige in language. 

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2015, 09:09:01 AM »
Quote
Sorry you are in error in this case because you have neglected to account for social prestige in language.

Can you please explain what you mean by social prestige in language. ?

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2015, 09:40:32 AM »
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prestige_%28sociolinguistics%29

In sociolinguistics, prestige is the level of respect accorded to a language or dialect as compared to that of other languages or dialects in a speech community. The concept of prestige in sociolinguistics is closely related to that of prestige or class within a society.



Basically if it was important socially that a group retain language or dialect use that they perceived as prestigious to them, they would keep it, even when it is at odds with the dominant speech patterns around them.
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2015, 10:46:05 AM »
These forms of Church Slavonic, are they akin to accents?  Basically ways of pronouncing certain words, et cetera? 

I would expect my collection of the ecclesiastical music composed by Ukranian Catholic / Amerixan composer Roman Hurko would be in the Ukranian accent and the vast amount of material I have recorded by Russian choirs would be in the Russian style?  But are these things a non CS speaker can even notice?   When I listen to East Syriac or West Syriac music the difference is shockimg because of the preponderance of As or Os, but here I would guess the distinction is more subtle.
Most noticeable is the lack of hard G in Ukrainian and Rusyn.  Hospodi not Gospodi.  Boh not Bog.  There is a hard G but it is for loan words as far as I can tell.  There are others.

Deacon Lance nailed it!  I cannot speak any Slavic language.  But I can and do notice the difference in pronunciation from Russian pronunciation of Church Slavonic and Ukrainian pronunciation of the same. Once even at my parish (we have several choir directors) and we were going to sing the responses to the Augmented Litany in Slavonic and there was, shall I say, a little "discussion" between the two directors on how to properly pronounce "Gospodi/Hospodi".  I stood there not saying a word.  Finally, it was decided that if the Ukrainian director was directing, we would sing "Hospodi", if the Russian guy was directing, we would sing, "Gospodi'.  Problem solved! :)

I was at an ordination yesterday in Pittsburgh at an ACROD parish. The magnificent parish choir was responding  at the start of Liturgy, mostly English, some Slavonic through Svitisja/Shine, Shine. The accent was the general "Ukrainian" one. Otce Nas came around and I bristled...the pace of direction changed as well as the accent. My  mind was racing...did the Russians invade and throw the director over the railing???(just kidding...) It was a local area men's concert choir noted for classical Russian liturgical concert performances in which the young man being ordained was a member. Yes...the difference in accent would be noticeable to a casual listener. Both are fine...I bristled because I didn't expect it and I am used to the Church choir's style.

And in say 1935 one entered that particular church and began singing in the accent of the concert choir...it's fair to assume arguments and worse would break out. Thanks to God, most of us have moved beyond such nonsense.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2015, 10:53:38 AM by podkarpatska »

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2015, 11:39:13 AM »
Do you think if Hayabusa and Pavroslavac ever met they'd annihilate each other like matter and antimatter?
Let's not go there with that off-topic conjecture about individual posters.
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2015, 12:04:46 PM »
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prestige_%28sociolinguistics%29

In sociolinguistics, prestige is the level of respect accorded to a language or dialect as compared to that of other languages or dialects in a speech community. The concept of prestige in sociolinguistics is closely related to that of prestige or class within a society.



Basically if it was important socially that a group retain language or dialect use that they perceived as prestigious to them, they would keep it, even when it is at odds with the dominant speech patterns around them.
Thanks for your response and the link too. Very interesting.  I remember from history that for example Jews in Eastern Europe would continue to use Yiddish depending on class status but over the generations and as they moved up the social scale or assimilated or became secular  adopt the langauge of the conqueror or ruler/ government as borders changed: so in Galicia for example using German under the Austrian Rulers, then Polish and then in the USSR Russian.

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2015, 12:22:20 PM »
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prestige_%28sociolinguistics%29

In sociolinguistics, prestige is the level of respect accorded to a language or dialect as compared to that of other languages or dialects in a speech community. The concept of prestige in sociolinguistics is closely related to that of prestige or class within a society.



Basically if it was important socially that a group retain language or dialect use that they perceived as prestigious to them, they would keep it, even when it is at odds with the dominant speech patterns around them.
Thanks for your response and the link too. Very interesting.  I remember from history that for example Jews in Eastern Europe would continue to use Yiddish depending on class status but over the generations and as they moved up the social scale or assimilated or became secular  adopt the langauge of the conqueror or ruler/ government as borders changed: so in Galicia for example using German under the Austrian Rulers, then Polish and then in the USSR Russian.


yes...and what is considered -prestige- for a certain group might not be what is obvious to an outsider.  So it is not -always- a case of  'richer fancier' being prestige.  If you are in a working class area for example, and you are college educated, you might speak like those around you, ie. more working class, because that's what is of value to fitting in your social group.

So in the example here, a group might keep a non-standard Russian dialect, over distances and centuries from where it and their culture group originated...because to them it means 'membership' in the group vs being outside it (even if both speak the same language technically'

I can only give personal examples but the group my relatives belong to, left south-central Russia for the Caucasus region well before the 1800's and did not leave for the US until about 1900 or so.   They still speak to this day a 'G-less' variety of Russian, despite being taught by outsiders, or in university.  At home, you revert to G-less.  Otherwise you are not 'Us' you are 'Them'

 
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2015, 12:37:24 PM »
And just for the curious...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_dialects

on the map on that page is a little red line that generally corresponds with the Southern Dialects that has the no hard G feature.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Russian_dialects
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2015, 01:02:03 PM »
And just for the curious...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_dialects

on the map on that page is a little red line that generally corresponds with the Southern Dialects that has the no hard G feature.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Russian_dialects

For the linguaphiles out there, this is interesting as well.." The Vanishing Galician Accent and How it Lingers in the Diaspora."  http://shadowsofaforgottenworld.blogspot.com/2015/04/vanishing-galician-accent-sound-of.html

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2015, 11:54:18 AM »
Christos Voskrese!
And just for the curious...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_dialects

on the map on that page is a little red line that generally corresponds with the Southern Dialects that has the no hard G feature.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Russian_dialects

For the linguaphiles out there, this is interesting as well.." The Vanishing Galician Accent and How it Lingers in the Diaspora."  http://shadowsofaforgottenworld.blogspot.com/2015/04/vanishing-galician-accent-sound-of.html
I remember my first time in the parish which received me, an old fashioned OCA Carpatho-Russian parish. I had never heard of them before, but when I heard the Divine Liturgy in their Slavonic I said to the priest "Oh, so you're Ukrainian" (I had dated a Ukrainian girl).
"Well....." he said "the Ukrainians were on their side of the mountain and we were on our side of the mountain."
"And" I added "you both went to Church on Sunday to thank God for the mountain." :laugh:

I'm not sure I agree with the links take on the "B" in Ukrainian. And the interchange with l is also seen in Belarussian.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2015, 05:50:26 PM »
Christos Voskrese!
And just for the curious...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_dialects

on the map on that page is a little red line that generally corresponds with the Southern Dialects that has the no hard G feature.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Russian_dialects

For the linguaphiles out there, this is interesting as well.." The Vanishing Galician Accent and How it Lingers in the Diaspora."  http://shadowsofaforgottenworld.blogspot.com/2015/04/vanishing-galician-accent-sound-of.html
I remember my first time in the parish which received me, an old fashioned OCA Carpatho-Russian parish. I had never heard of them before, but when I heard the Divine Liturgy in their Slavonic I said to the priest "Oh, so you're Ukrainian" (I had dated a Ukrainian girl).
"Well....." he said "the Ukrainians were on their side of the mountain and we were on our side of the mountain."
"And" I added "you both went to Church on Sunday to thank God for the mountain." :laugh:

I'm not sure I agree with the links take on the "B" in Ukrainian. And the interchange with l is also seen in Belarussian.

Isa: I.am going to remember that quip about the mountain.You would have split my late father's side with laughter had he heard it. Thanks!

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #40 on: May 19, 2015, 06:53:00 PM »
Christos Voskrese!
And just for the curious...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_dialects

on the map on that page is a little red line that generally corresponds with the Southern Dialects that has the no hard G feature.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Russian_dialects

For the linguaphiles out there, this is interesting as well.." The Vanishing Galician Accent and How it Lingers in the Diaspora."  http://shadowsofaforgottenworld.blogspot.com/2015/04/vanishing-galician-accent-sound-of.html
I remember my first time in the parish which received me, an old fashioned OCA Carpatho-Russian parish. I had never heard of them before, but when I heard the Divine Liturgy in their Slavonic I said to the priest "Oh, so you're Ukrainian" (I had dated a Ukrainian girl).
"Well....." he said "the Ukrainians were on their side of the mountain and we were on our side of the mountain."
"And" I added "you both went to Church on Sunday to thank God for the mountain." :laugh:

I'm not sure I agree with the links take on the "B" in Ukrainian. And the interchange with l is also seen in Belarussian.

Isa: I.am going to remember that quip about the mountain.You would have split my late father's side with laughter had he heard it. Thanks!

Do the Rusyns/Ruthenians/Carpatho-Russians have a name for their historic homeland (other than Ruthenia, of course)?
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #41 on: May 20, 2015, 10:26:10 AM »
Christos Voskrese!
And just for the curious...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_dialects

on the map on that page is a little red line that generally corresponds with the Southern Dialects that has the no hard G feature.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Russian_dialects

For the linguaphiles out there, this is interesting as well.." The Vanishing Galician Accent and How it Lingers in the Diaspora."  http://shadowsofaforgottenworld.blogspot.com/2015/04/vanishing-galician-accent-sound-of.html
I remember my first time in the parish which received me, an old fashioned OCA Carpatho-Russian parish. I had never heard of them before, but when I heard the Divine Liturgy in their Slavonic I said to the priest "Oh, so you're Ukrainian" (I had dated a Ukrainian girl).
"Well....." he said "the Ukrainians were on their side of the mountain and we were on our side of the mountain."
"And" I added "you both went to Church on Sunday to thank God for the mountain." :laugh:

I'm not sure I agree with the links take on the "B" in Ukrainian. And the interchange with l is also seen in Belarussian.

Isa: I.am going to remember that quip about the mountain.You would have split my late father's side with laughter had he heard it. Thanks!

Do the Rusyns/Ruthenians/Carpatho-Russians have a name for their historic homeland (other than Ruthenia, of course)?

That is a question sure to provoke argument. It depends on any number of variables, but in truth the region(s) in question have always been a part of one or more larger entities, depending on a particular point in time.

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #42 on: May 20, 2015, 10:45:07 AM »
There is no Ukrainian serbian language.

There is only Russian and the language that the Court of Austria-Hungary as an Vatican agent Turks and Albanians managed to produce and separate from a Russian dialect.

ftfy
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2015, 07:46:10 AM »
Why not adopt Slavonic with a Ukrainian pronunciation for UOCUSA or UOC-Canada churches, or parallel Slavonic-Ukrainian? That would seem to solve the issue of "Russian" Slavonic, would enable Slavonic to be retained, for mutual intelligibility with other Orthodox Slavs, and enable them to be distinctly Ukrainian. AFAIK, that is what the canonical UOC-MP does, and the diaspora churches could reasonably adopt that. The parallel Slavonic-Ukrainian is for those parishes that do use Ukrainian.

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2015, 10:42:45 PM »
Why not adopt Slavonic with a Ukrainian pronunciation for UOCUSA or UOC-Canada churches, or parallel Slavonic-Ukrainian? That would seem to solve the issue of "Russian" Slavonic, would enable Slavonic to be retained, for mutual intelligibility with other Orthodox Slavs, and enable them to be distinctly Ukrainian. AFAIK, that is what the canonical UOC-MP does, and the diaspora churches could reasonably adopt that. The parallel Slavonic-Ukrainian is for those parishes that do use Ukrainian.

Why would any serious consideration be given to returning to Church Slavonic, regardless of pronunciation? Are you likewise urging the OCA to drop English and reinstate Church Slavonic?  AFAIK when using Slavonic Ukrainiians from the eastern Ukraine tend toward the Russian pronunciation while those from the center to the west tend towards the Ukrainian pronunciation There is no issue regarding  "mutual intelligibility" as one: the differences are subtle (try Appalachian American English as contrasted with standard American English) and two: Church Slavonic is not, by itself, intelligible in terms of being understood by the masses anyway.

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #45 on: May 23, 2015, 12:41:26 AM »
If that was not the case, then why, up until the latter half of the 20th century, did all Slavic national churches serve their liturgy in Slavonic? (Bulgaria and Serbia switched to the vernacular in the 80's AFAIK). Apparently, the ROC, Ukraine, and Belarus churches still retain the custom of serving in Church Slavonic, so it would not be a problem for UOC-MP and UOC-USA clerics to concelebrate if both know Slavonic.

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #46 on: May 23, 2015, 08:43:05 AM »
If that was not the case, then why, up until the latter half of the 20th century, did all Slavic national churches serve their liturgy in Slavonic?

Do you really think people understand Cs? Or did 200-500 years ago?
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #47 on: May 23, 2015, 08:46:40 AM »
If that was not the case, then why, up until the latter half of the 20th century, did all Slavic national churches serve their liturgy in Slavonic?

Do you really think people understand Cs? Or did 200-500 years ago?

Yes, many do. Like with any language, if someone wants to understand it, they'll make the effort. It doesn't take much effort, especially if someone already speaks and/or understands a contemporary Slavic language.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2015, 08:47:06 AM by LBK »
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #48 on: May 23, 2015, 09:01:34 AM »
If that was not the case, then why, up until the latter half of the 20th century, did all Slavic national churches serve their liturgy in Slavonic? (Bulgaria and Serbia switched to the vernacular in the 80's AFAIK).
No. In Serbian and Bulgarian Churches Church Slavonic is the main liturgical language. The readings are done in vernacular, and some prayers e.g some ektenies, the Creed and/or Our Father (sometimes both are said in Church Slavonic, sometimes both in Serbian and sometines the first one in CS and the second one in Serbian or vice versa; the same more or less goes for Bulgaria) and sometimes the Eucharistic Anaphora. The troparions, kontakions, canons, sticheras etc. are in 95% chanted in Church Slavonic. Macedonian Church (both this tiny canonical group and the non-canonical one) uses much more vernacular than Church Slavonic, but even it hasn't give it up totally.

Apparently, the ROC, Ukraine, and Belarus churches still retain the custom of serving in Church Slavonic, so it would not be a problem for UOC-MP and UOC-USA clerics to concelebrate if both know Slavonic
You forgot about Polish Church that still uses Church Slavonic. Czecho-Slovac Church also uses it quite a lot, but less (quite similar situation as in the Macedonian Churches, I would say).

As for UOC in USA, although I have nothing to do with it, I would say English should be the basic language. 1. a lot of faithful are 2nd or 3rd generation of the immigration and know Ukrainian very little (and has no idea about Church Slavonic) 2. just for missionary purposes. I would say that some prayers, especially the ones that are repeated, and also for some great feasts, could be said in Ukrainian and/or Church Slavonic (ofc with Ukrainian pronunciation). Just to not forget the roots.


If that was not the case, then why, up until the latter half of the 20th century, did all Slavic national churches serve their liturgy in Slavonic?

Do you really think people understand Cs? Or did 200-500 years ago?

Yes, many do. Like with any language, if someone wants to understand it, they'll make the effort. It doesn't take much effort, especially if someone already speaks and/or understands a contemporary Slavic language.
+1
And it's very beneficial. As the meaning of some words are much more deeper, the same goes for the grammar constructions.
And just look at Serbian (and Bulgarian) literaturę even 200 years ago. Its language is very similar to Church Slavonic. Don't know how it applies to Russian, but I think is some way too, as it has a lot of borrowings from CS.
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #49 on: May 23, 2015, 09:13:04 AM »
If that was not the case, then why, up until the latter half of the 20th century, did all Slavic national churches serve their liturgy in Slavonic?

Do you really think people understand Cs? Or did 200-500 years ago?

Yes, many do. Like with any language, if someone wants to understand it, they'll make the effort. It doesn't take much effort, especially if someone already speaks and/or understands a contemporary Slavic language.

And what percentage of people did that effort? What percentage of priests? Because I have an impression 1/3 of priests has no clue what they are reading looking from the way how they read.

And what slavic languages do you know?
« Last Edit: May 23, 2015, 09:13:34 AM by mike »
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #50 on: May 23, 2015, 09:24:59 AM »

And what percentage of people did that effort? What percentage of priests? Because I have an impression 1/3 of priests has no clue what they are reading looking from the way how they read.

I'm not a statistician. But I can confidently say that the dozen or more priests I know who serve in CS know and understand what they're chanting and singing.

And what slavic languages do you know?

I know enough of CS and modern Russian to know that Dominika knows exactly what she's talking about.
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #51 on: May 23, 2015, 09:35:20 AM »
so could you or her provide a short dialogue in Cs when a person goes to a doctor/grocery/hairdresser/whatever and gets the things done. 5-7 sentences. stuff 10-years-old do when they study other languages.

Don't need to be written in Cs Cyrillic. Russian one would be fine too.
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #52 on: May 23, 2015, 09:46:04 AM »
so could you or her provide a short dialogue in Cs when a person goes to a doctor/grocery/hairdresser/whatever and gets the things done. 5-7 sentences. stuff 10-years-old do when they study other languages.

You would know that CS is, and always was, exclusively, a liturgical language, not a vernacular language.  :police:
« Last Edit: May 23, 2015, 09:46:28 AM by LBK »
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #53 on: May 23, 2015, 09:48:39 AM »
Why not adopt Slavonic with a Ukrainian pronunciation for UOCUSA or UOC-Canada churches, or parallel Slavonic-Ukrainian? That would seem to solve the issue of "Russian" Slavonic, would enable Slavonic to be retained, for mutual intelligibility with other Orthodox Slavs, and enable them to be distinctly Ukrainian. AFAIK, that is what the canonical UOC-MP does, and the diaspora churches could reasonably adopt that. The parallel Slavonic-Ukrainian is for those parishes that do use Ukrainian.
Why not let the people decide????  The UOCC decided in 1918 to use modern Ukrainian as the liturgical language for church services.  However, Church Slavonic is still taught in seminary.  We have not forgotten our roots.

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #54 on: May 23, 2015, 09:48:50 AM »
so could you or her provide a short dialogue in Cs when a person goes to a doctor/grocery/hairdresser/whatever and gets the things done. 5-7 sentences. stuff 10-years-old do when they study other languages.

You would know that CS is, and always was, exclusively, a liturgical language, not a vernacular language.  :police:

I know by stating that you prove you do not know it even on that basic level. And you want to use it for theology.
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #55 on: May 23, 2015, 09:58:06 AM »
so could you or her provide a short dialogue in Cs when a person goes to a doctor/grocery/hairdresser/whatever and gets the things done. 5-7 sentences. stuff 10-years-old do when they study other languages.

You would know that CS is, and always was, exclusively, a liturgical language, not a vernacular language.  :police:

I know by stating that you prove you do not know it even on that basic level.

You claim to know, but you don't.  ::)

Quote
And you want to use it for theology.

Which is what CS is more than capable of doing.  ::)

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #56 on: May 23, 2015, 10:01:16 AM »
Don't try to fly a plane if you cannot stand still on your legs because you will most likely crash.
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #57 on: May 23, 2015, 10:07:01 AM »
Don't try to fly a plane if you cannot stand still on your legs because you will most likely crash.

Speak for yourself. One doesn't need to live within the borders of your country to know certain things properly.  :police:
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #58 on: May 23, 2015, 10:16:24 AM »
Because I have an impression 1/3 of priests has no clue what they are reading looking from the way how they read.

Do you know Church Slavonic, mike?
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #59 on: May 23, 2015, 10:21:08 AM »
Because I have an impression 1/3 of priests has no clue what they are reading looking from the way how they read.

Do you know Church Slavonic, mike?

What do you mean by "knowing"?

I can read (pronounce words using letters) it. I understand some of it, especially the parts I hear on regular basis. I cannot use it actively, ie. say or write anything on my own.
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #60 on: May 23, 2015, 10:28:09 AM »
Because I have an impression 1/3 of priests has no clue what they are reading looking from the way how they read.

Do you know Church Slavonic, mike?

What do you mean by "knowing"?

I can read (pronounce words using letters) it. I understand some of it, especially the parts I hear on regular basis. I cannot use it actively, ie. say or write anything on my own.

To know a language is to understand at least some of it.
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #61 on: May 23, 2015, 10:29:41 AM »
Because I have an impression 1/3 of priests has no clue what they are reading looking from the way how they read.

Do you know Church Slavonic, mike?

What do you mean by "knowing"?

I can read (pronounce words using letters) it. I understand some of it, especially the parts I hear on regular basis. I cannot use it actively, ie. say or write anything on my own.

To know a language is to understand at least some of it.

Without any ability to produce something in that language on your own? That would make me know Ukrainian and slovak. Cool!
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #62 on: May 23, 2015, 10:36:07 AM »
Because I have an impression 1/3 of priests has no clue what they are reading looking from the way how they read.

Do you know Church Slavonic, mike?

What do you mean by "knowing"?

I can read (pronounce words using letters) it. I understand some of it, especially the parts I hear on regular basis. I cannot use it actively, ie. say or write anything on my own.

To know a language is to understand at least some of it.

Without any ability to produce something in that language on your own? That would make me know Ukrainian and slovak. Cool!

Orthodox hymnographers writing hymns and services for newly-proclaimed saints under the direction of their hierarchy are indeed producing "something on their own" in Church Slavonic.
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #63 on: May 23, 2015, 10:38:49 AM »
Because I have an impression 1/3 of priests has no clue what they are reading looking from the way how they read.

Do you know Church Slavonic, mike?

What do you mean by "knowing"?

I can read (pronounce words using letters) it. I understand some of it, especially the parts I hear on regular basis. I cannot use it actively, ie. say or write anything on my own.

To know a language is to understand at least some of it.

Without any ability to produce something in that language on your own? That would make me know Ukrainian and slovak. Cool!

Orthodox hymnographers writing hymns and services for newly-proclaimed saints under the direction of their hierarchy are indeed producing "something on their own" in Church Slavonic.

I am aware of existence of some nerds that actually know it, like they are people that speak Klingon or Quenya on daily basis. I only doubt their number crosses 1k in a world scale.
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #64 on: May 23, 2015, 10:53:04 AM »
Because I have an impression 1/3 of priests has no clue what they are reading looking from the way how they read.

Do you know Church Slavonic, mike?

What do you mean by "knowing"?

I can read (pronounce words using letters) it. I understand some of it, especially the parts I hear on regular basis. I cannot use it actively, ie. say or write anything on my own.

I'm not sure I would require an ability to converse or compose in CS in order to say someone "knows" it, since it is a language with a limited application nowadays. 

Mostly I was wondering what your level of proficiency in CS was if you can tell that a third of priests have no clue what they are reading.  Are you saying that they cannot read ("pronounce words using letters")?  Or they don't pause between the right words or phrases?  Or something else?   
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #65 on: May 23, 2015, 10:57:28 AM »
Mostly I was wondering what your level of proficiency in CS was if you can tell that a third of priests have no clue what they are reading.  Are you saying that they cannot read ("pronounce words using letters")?  Or they don't pause between the right words or phrases?  Or something else?   

These, stumbling before words unfamiliar to them, terrible placing of sentence stress. The latter probably being my biggest issue.

Misreading words is also not unheard.
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #66 on: May 23, 2015, 11:21:35 AM »
Mostly I was wondering what your level of proficiency in CS was if you can tell that a third of priests have no clue what they are reading.  Are you saying that they cannot read ("pronounce words using letters")?  Or they don't pause between the right words or phrases?  Or something else?   

These, stumbling before words unfamiliar to them, terrible placing of sentence stress. The latter probably being my biggest issue.

Misreading words is also not unheard.

Then, given your supposed great knowledge of CS, you could advertize your linguistic services to errant clergy.
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #67 on: May 23, 2015, 11:22:36 AM »
Mostly I was wondering what your level of proficiency in CS was if you can tell that a third of priests have no clue what they are reading.  Are you saying that they cannot read ("pronounce words using letters")?  Or they don't pause between the right words or phrases?  Or something else?   

These, stumbling before words unfamiliar to them, terrible placing of sentence stress. The latter probably being my biggest issue.

Misreading words is also not unheard.

Then, given your supposed great knowledge of CS, you could advertize your linguistic services to errant clergy.

Where exactly I wrote I know it?
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #68 on: May 23, 2015, 11:26:01 AM »

These, stumbling before words unfamiliar to them, terrible placing of sentence stress. The latter probably being my biggest issue.

Misreading words is also not unheard.
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #69 on: May 23, 2015, 11:33:02 AM »

These, stumbling before words unfamiliar to them, terrible placing of sentence stress. The latter probably being my biggest issue.

Misreading words is also not unheard.


There is not written I know Cs. There is written I heard priests that don't.

Or do I not know English too? Can anyone translate it for LBK to understand?
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #70 on: May 23, 2015, 02:12:14 PM »
Mostly I was wondering what your level of proficiency in CS was if you can tell that a third of priests have no clue what they are reading.  Are you saying that they cannot read ("pronounce words using letters")?  Or they don't pause between the right words or phrases?  Or something else?   

These, stumbling before words unfamiliar to them, terrible placing of sentence stress. The latter probably being my biggest issue.

Misreading words is also not unheard.

"Terrible placing of sentence stress" would bother me too, but I'm not sure how I would know about that if all I could do was "read (pronounce words using letters)". 

Stumbling before unfamiliar words or misreading words is annoying, but people do that in their native languages all the time, I'm willing to cut people some slack when it comes to archaic langauges. 
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #71 on: May 23, 2015, 05:06:22 PM »
1. Church Slavonic as a liturgical language doesn't need to be spoken; what's more, actually it shouldn't be; liturgical languages are for sacred purposes: the Bible, hymns, prayers and not to speak it, but just to present the theology and understand it; it's a nuance.

2. I study Church Slavonic (words, a bit of grammat to understand structures and proper readings - accents, various melodies for different prayers) at my parish and I've seen it's practically impossible to translate (present) some things in so rich (and right, that's theology so even a shade of the meaning is important) way in e.g Polish; and ofc it looses some rhythmic. As Slaves we're lucky to have a liturgical language.

3. The "students" of our classes sometimes read at church the OT readins, some psalms, the hours etc. And two things:
a) laypeople notice some our errors, so they have an idea what we're reading (surely, they're "aware" faithful, but still)
b) when I'm at services done it Polish (very occasionally, just if I have to because of some reasons) and the readings are done by people that haven't prepared the reading or they just have very little idea about the melody, pauses etc. I do not understand what they're reading; and when somebody reads in CS in a good manner, I'm really able to understand; that's why we study at our classes not only the meaning, but HOW to read.

So, it actually depends on the reader (inlcudings priests), not (only) on the language. And surely, laymen should learn some basics of the language or see the text before/at service; Church Slavonic is a such language for Slavs, that when we follow the written text, is relatively easy to understand, and the fruits are much better than via these poor (at least into Polish; but as for Ukrainian, I've seen so many versions for the same prayers) translations...
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #72 on: May 23, 2015, 05:09:36 PM »
but as for Ukrainian, I've seen so many versions for the same prayers) translations...

Using that as an anectodal argument, I've heard 4 different Cs versions of Elevation troparion IRL.
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #73 on: May 23, 2015, 06:28:14 PM »
The UOC-USA parishes with which I am familiar generally use a mixture of Ukrainian and English.  In a parish with substantial Ukrainian immigrant presence, the service will be 85-95% in modern Ukrainian.  In a parish with substantial third- and fourth-generation presence (or a heavy convert presence) the service will be in 85-95% English.  Sometimes parts of the service will be repeated, for example, the Gospel or the pre-communion prayer will be read in both languages.  I have been in parishes which used the Ukrainian recension of Slavonic in some limited places.  I don't think that anyone except the clergy or the well-read really comprehended what was being sung at those points.  And, like Mike, I have heard numerous Ukrainian variants of common texts such as the Paschal Troparion.  I can think of at least three off the top of my head.

I am personally opposed to the use of Church Slavonic for the same reason that I am opposed to the use of Latin.  Both languages were implemented for liturgical purposes because they were the lingua franca of great masses of people and thus these people could readily understand the liturgical services which they -- often converts from paganism -- were attending and experiencing.  Now they are both dead languages.  We ought to be careful lest we make SS. Cyril and Methodius, Equals to the Apostles, into some sort of KJV-onlyites, and forget the reason for which they were being persecuted by the Germanic Christians.

If we really wanted to preserve the original nuances, we ought to have kept the services in the original koine Greek, rather than enshrining a re-translation of those terms at a particular point in time.  I, of course, can understand the use of Slavonic on some occasion when a historical celebration of some sort makes its use reasonable, or perhaps even if a group of Slavs got together and decided to celebrate in Slavonic for convenience, although even then I think this would create more problems than it solved, both in terms of politics and linguistics.  (First question:  Whose recension would you use?)

Serving the liturgy in the lingua franca of the people, whether that be Ukrainian, Belarusian, Russian, Polish, etc., within particular regions of a country, would help our Church not only to grow, but also to retain our cradles who either think it so much dead ceremony and flock to the Protestants, and to spiritually feed those who are nominally Orthodox but, like postmodern art, appreciate the services for their aesthetic value and superimpose their own theological meanings onto these unintelligible gatherings.  This is what I have seen time and time again in experiences of the "old country" and its people, and this truly what I fear the most.  It may not be as widespread as I fear but I have seen things of this sort enough times that I have concluded that our Church is better off not tacitly encouraging it.

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #74 on: May 23, 2015, 06:42:12 PM »
And just for the curious...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_dialects

on the map on that page is a little red line that generally corresponds with the Southern Dialects that has the no hard G feature.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Russian_dialects

For the linguaphiles out there, this is interesting as well.." The Vanishing Galician Accent and How it Lingers in the Diaspora."  http://shadowsofaforgottenworld.blogspot.com/2015/04/vanishing-galician-accent-sound-of.html

This was very interesting.  You know, when I read Lemko or Boyko Ukrainian texts, one of the things that startles me is how often they use the reflexive ся (sya) as a separate word before the infinitive rather than taking it onto the end. 

One thing he doesn't seem to mention is that the further west you go in Ukraine, and into Poland, the vowel и pronunciation changes.  In central and eastern Ukraine it sounds more like "ouuee" (hard for me to write this), like the Russian letter Ы.  But when you go further west this sounds like "ay" (like the Fonz used to say in the classic show, "Happy Days").  I hear this sound quite plainly in some Ukrainian diasporan choirs. I think that in the Lemko dialect they write this sound with Ы (which confuses me even more) and they use і for the sound of the Ukrainian letter і or the Russian letter и.  I don't think the Lemkos use the letter и but I could be wrong about that. 

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #75 on: May 23, 2015, 06:44:57 PM »
To give a better example for those who have no idea at all what I'm talking about:

The word бил (an archaic form of "I was") would be pronounced in central and eastern Ukraine something like "boil," where "boil" is said really quickly.
In western Ukraine it sounds more like "bale."  (like a bale of hay)

This isn't even a word used in modern Ukrainian but the Rusyns still use it as "I was" but they write it был.

I'm not quite catching the sound but it's as close as I can get at this point to describing it. 

I am not a linguist.  Perhaps someone here who is can explain this better than I can.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2015, 06:47:26 PM by Yurysprudentsiya »

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #76 on: May 23, 2015, 06:45:12 PM »
(Duplicative post in error)
« Last Edit: May 23, 2015, 06:47:37 PM by Yurysprudentsiya »

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #77 on: May 23, 2015, 08:18:04 PM »
So, it actually depends on the reader (inlcudings priests), not (only) on the language. And surely, laymen should learn some basics of the language or see the text before/at service; Church Slavonic is a such language for Slavs, that when we follow the written text, is relatively easy to understand, and the fruits are much better than via these poor (at least into Polish; but as for Ukrainian, I've seen so many versions for the same prayers) translations...
Yes, English is my native language an I never studied Church slavic, but don't have trouble reading it.
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #78 on: May 24, 2015, 08:04:31 AM »
but as for Ukrainian, I've seen so many versions for the same prayers) translations...

Using that as an anectodal argument, I've heard 4 different Cs versions of Elevation troparion IRL.
Troparion of the Cross is a very specific case, as it's very political hymn and in various traditions in has various versions, nothing to do with the language and (almost) nothing to do with theology.

I am personally opposed to the use of Church Slavonic for the same reason that I am opposed to the use of Latin.  Both languages were implemented for liturgical purposes because they were the lingua franca of great masses of people and thus these people could readily understand the liturgical services which they -- often converts from paganism -- were attending and experiencing.  Now they are both dead languages.  We ought to be careful lest we make SS. Cyril and Methodius, Equals to the Apostles, into some sort of KJV-onlyites, and forget the reason for which they were being persecuted by the Germanic Christians.
1. There is a difference between lingua franca and vernacular language. The first one is the language that's understood by people of various ethnicites/nationalities or whatever, the second one is the spoken language on daily basis.
So, Church Slavonic was (and still being, in some way), a lingua franca for various Slavs, but it has never been a vernacular. SS. Cyril and Methodius created, on the basis of various Slavic language (on Southern dialects dominantly) a liturgical language, with theological neologisms (though they're created in such way that via intuition Slav people are able to understand it) and sentence structure based on Greek.
I always underline that the case of Church Slavonic just among Slavs is not the same as the case of Latin in the whole Roman Catholic Church; however, Latin may be used among Spanish, Italian people etc.

Serving the liturgy in the lingua franca of the people, whether that be Ukrainian, Belarusian, Russian, Polish, etc., within particular regions of a country, would help our Church not only to grow, but also to retain our cradles who either think it so much dead ceremony and flock to the Protestants, and to spiritually feed those who are nominally Orthodox but, like postmodern art, appreciate the services for their aesthetic value and superimpose their own theological meanings onto these unintelligible gatherings.  This is what I have seen time and time again in experiences of the "old country" and its people, and this truly what I fear the most.  It may not be as widespread as I fear but I have seen things of this sort enough times that I have concluded that our Church is better off not tacitly encouraging it.
Again, "lingua franca" - especially in the case of the Polish Church, it is Church Slavonic, but actually in the case of Ukraine and Belarus too. As for vernacular, I'm opposed to it in case of Slavs in their homeland. To have a liturgical language is a treasure, that e.g English speakers don't have; this treasure have Greeks, Georgians, Armenians, Arabs (as they use fusha, e. literature language that's not spoken in the street) etc.

Vernacular language at services won't help to keep people choosing Protestantism (actually, Protestantism is a very small group here, in Poland), as 1. the translations are just bad and full of errors (theological, grammatical, rhythmical,; sometimes there is lack of some phrases in synaxarions etc. - I'm speaking for Polish translations) 2. if the readers, choirs, priests are not prepared to read and the melodies are bad arranged, it's very difficult to understand something 3. the problem is much deeper than the language. The problem is about clergy and its preparation to serve among people, with the hierarchy, with giving up some old good traditions and just taking patterns and so on
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #79 on: May 24, 2015, 08:27:56 AM »
Thank you for the distinction between lingua franca and vernacular.  As I stated, I am not a linguist!

However, I still hold to my original position, inserting the word "vernacular" instead of "lingua franca."

As you state, the Equals-to-the-Apostles were serving primarily a southern Slavic audience; there is no indication, as far as I know, that they ever made it to the lands of the Rus'.  Perhaps the modern Bulgarian or Serbian language is closer to Slavonic; I don't know that.  The need for various recensions of Slavonic in the states developing after the Rus', however, demonstrate that a differentiation was necessary even early on to keep the language intelligible for the people.  The development of modern languages in Eastern Europe post-dated these events by centuries; the Church ought to have "caught up" as these languages emerged although it never fully did, for various reasons.

I don't believe that anyone should be required to worship in a language other than his or her vernacular on a regular basis.  Setting up these kinds of barriers is antithetical to the Church's evangelical outreach.  Honestly, I feel no particular affinity to Slavonic; when I enter a Ukrainian Church in Ukraine I should rather expect to hear mostly Ukrainian (or, if in some regions, modern Russian); likewise, in a parish in America, modern English (unless it is an immigrant-heavy parish).

If the translations into the vernacular are bad in Poland, then I think that they ought to be amended.  This ought to be as much a part of the Church's work as is outreach into the local communities -- which, in the case of Ukraine, at least, and probably Russia -- I don't really know too much about this in Poland, except for a little in the southeast -- is sadly lacking in many cases.  I agree with you there.

For me, it boils down to the notion that when a person comes to the Divine Liturgy, he or she ought to be able to readily understand what is being sung there, and to join in if he or she so chooses.  I think that this applies both in the West as well as the East.  For that reason, although I can understand it without difficulty, I don't really care for the "King James style" English that is used in a lot of American churches, either. 

The Protestantization of the people, which, although small, continues apace in Eastern Europe among those who are ignorant of the Liturgy, is not the only issue.  Far more insidious, to me, is that there are also those people who go to Church on Sundays and for Feasts and, without comprehension of what is going on, come in for a little bit and leave, just to soak in the atmosphere.  They join processions but have no detailed concept of what the procession is for.  They light a candle as if from magic.  They weave homespun thoughts of ghosts and magic into the liturgies, as though the Liturgies were some sort of magic talisman, some sort of incomprehensible mantra to access the Divine.  I think that this attitude is extremely problematic and it generates nominal Orthodox, Orthodox with heterodox views, and helps the Protestants with their accessible worship pull people away from our Church.  Rendering the Liturgy into the vernacular and proclaiming it clearly, as parts of the Ukrainian Church have done by and large in recent times, together with good catechesis (the two must go hand in hand), helps to remove these problems.

Perhaps we disagree, and that is fine with me, but I do want to emphasize that I feel strongly about this.

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #80 on: May 24, 2015, 06:12:45 PM »
Because I have an impression 1/3 of priests has no clue what they are reading looking from the way how they read.

Do you know Church Slavonic, mike?

What do you mean by "knowing"?

I can read (pronounce words using letters) it. I understand some of it, especially the parts I hear on regular basis. I cannot use it actively, ie. say or write anything on my own.

To know a language is to understand at least some of it.

Without any ability to produce something in that language on your own? That would make me know Ukrainian and slovak. Cool!

My dad was a first generation priest for sixty years and this discussion was a common one among him and his peers. Yes CS is taught in seminary in.Slavic jurisdictions,  more intensively in his day, less so in my brothers day (he is a priest as well for forty years) and minimally today - enough to read it. Few across those eighty years of training, including European born and immigrant clergy comprehended CS.

The big inside joke across the generations was that eexcepting a select few academic linguist clergy or hobbiests, most "know" the meaning of liturgy by repetition over the years, but scripture was read not understood without a parallel Russian, Ukrainian Serbian...whatever...bible. As for understanding matins, vespers, the hours etc...give me a break. I have to agree with mike's statements, if not his tone. Now, I can't speak for the modern European experience, but that's the truth in America. Nostalgia should not govern the operation of the Church.


I agree with Yuri 100% here.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2015, 06:16:49 PM by podkarpatska »

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #81 on: October 19, 2015, 03:29:26 PM »
There is no Ukrainian serbian language.

There is only Russian and the language that the Court of Austria-Hungary as an Vatican agent Turks and Albanians managed to produce and separate from a Russian dialect.

ftfy

LOL, your malice doesn't change the facts.

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #82 on: December 11, 2015, 04:11:19 PM »
A couple of weeks ago I got the first hand see on Ukie Orthodoxy. I attended a film festival organised by the UOC. I was hanging up with its organizers for most of the time (young adults centered around st. Jonah Monastery). During my stay I attended services at st. Pantaleon athonite metochion in Kiev, visited a few of other UOC churches in Kiev (including Lavra and tour around the caves, and that monastery the monks that was guarding Maydan protesters from the Berkut were from) and one KP church (the cathedral). Here are my some language observations:
- Russian, despite all the occurrence,s is still more prevalent in Kiev than Ukrainian. I hear Ukrainian more often in Warsaw, than in Kiev
- I could find Russian language books in that KP cathedral to buy
- the sermon in that athonite metochion was to my surprise in Ukrainian (it was extremely long however, like 40 min)
- from what I was told Metr. Vladimir was the only Ukrainian-speaking person at the previous festival opening. he remained the same this year as they read some poem by him and it was the only thing in Ukrainian. they showed some video tribute to Maydan victims however
- after having heard Metr. Humphrey speech at the festival finale (which was given in Russian) it was clearly heard Ukrainian is his first toungue
- Metr. Drabynko however spoke Ukrainian
« Last Edit: December 11, 2015, 04:17:20 PM by mike »
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #83 on: August 13, 2017, 05:40:57 AM »
I was in Ukraine recently and the situation seems to be rather unchanged.

The (canonical) Ukrainian Orthodox Church under the Moscow Patriarchate (UOC-MP) is a hotspot of the Russian language, for obvious reasons. Indeed, Bishop Oleksandr (Drabynko) is one of the main defenders of the Ukrainian language in the UOC-MP, and his Transfiguration Cathedral in Teremky (southwestern suburb of Kyiv) seems to be the only mostly Ukrainian-speaking Church of the UOC-MP in the city. Others generally use Church Slavonic (in Kyiv usually with Russian pronoucniation), with sermons more often in Russian than in Ukrainian. In Western Ukraine, the MP seems to be more open to using Ukrainian.

The non-canonical Orthodox however use only Ukrainian in their services, in all of Ukraine. As for books on sale there I am not sure.
The Greek Catholics (in union with Rome) also use Ukrainian, occasionally (and especially in Zakarpattia) Church Slavonic with traditional local pronounciation.


On the streets in Kyiv, one hears much more Ukrainian than before. Many now consequently stick to Ukrainian, even when adressed in Russian. The Moscow Patriarchate as a hotbed of Russian culture is increasingly alienated from society, and while some people have gone over to the (non-canonical, Ukrainian-speaking) Kyiv Patriarchate, often even whole villages switching jurisdiction, if there is only one church. But amongst educated people in Kyiv etc, the main beneficiary of dissatisfaction with the MP seem to be the Greek Catholics. I heard a lot of intellectuals and well educated people joined them recently.



A couple of weeks ago I got the first hand see on Ukie Orthodoxy. I attended a film festival organised by the UOC. I was hanging up with its organizers for most of the time (young adults centered around st. Jonah Monastery). During my stay I attended services at st. Pantaleon athonite metochion in Kiev, visited a few of other UOC churches in Kiev (including Lavra and tour around the caves, and that monastery the monks that was guarding Maydan protesters from the Berkut were from) and one KP church (the cathedral). Here are my some language observations:
- Russian, despite all the occurrence,s is still more prevalent in Kiev than Ukrainian. I hear Ukrainian more often in Warsaw, than in Kiev
- I could find Russian language books in that KP cathedral to buy
- the sermon in that athonite metochion was to my surprise in Ukrainian (it was extremely long however, like 40 min)
- from what I was told Metr. Vladimir was the only Ukrainian-speaking person at the previous festival opening. he remained the same this year as they read some poem by him and it was the only thing in Ukrainian. they showed some video tribute to Maydan victims however
- after having heard Metr. Humphrey speech at the festival finale (which was given in Russian) it was clearly heard Ukrainian is his first toungue
- Metr. Drabynko however spoke Ukrainian