Author Topic: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox  (Read 4988 times)

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Offline Cyrillic

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Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« on: May 16, 2015, 06:54:39 AM »
What language do the Ukrainian Orthodox use it the liturgy? Church Slavonic or Ukrainian?

I've heard that the Ukrainian Greek Catholics use Ukrainian in the liturgy.

Offline Theophania

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2015, 07:17:51 AM »
I attended a Ukrainian parish for a while. It was always Ukrainian on the rare occasion we used anything other than English.
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2015, 07:49:11 AM »
I think it depends on the parish, a major factor being how conservative they are and how many of them are Ukrainian speakers. I have been to sizable Ukrainian Catholic churches in the US where there were very very few native Ukrainian immigrants and the service was all in English.

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2015, 08:29:35 AM »
The UOC USA pewbook at the UOC parish here has side by side vernacular Ukrainian and English  .  It was printed by the UOC USA .

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2015, 08:41:06 AM »
Ukrainian Orthodox Church uses Cs mainly however there are a couple of places that have services in Ukrainian. Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada and Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the UsA use Ukrainian and English, the latter probably more English.

Kiev Patriarchate and UAOC use Ukrainian.
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Offline IreneOlinyk

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2015, 09:10:01 AM »
Ukrainian Orthodox Church uses Cs mainly however there are a couple of places that have services in Ukrainian. Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada and Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the UsA use Ukrainian and English, the latter probably more English.

Kiev Patriarchate and UAOC use Ukrainian.

Mike is correct.  When I visited Ukraine the UOC-MP uses Church Slavonic except in a few city parishes.  The UOCC (Canada) started using modern Ukrainian shortly after it was established in 1918.  The Canadian Church has continued to use the same translation with only slight changes or corrections.

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2015, 09:13:40 AM »
Ukrainian Orthodox Church uses Cs mainly however there are a couple of places that have services in Ukrainian. Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada and Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the UsA use Ukrainian and English, the latter probably more English.

Kiev Patriarchate and UAOC use Ukrainian.

Thanks, Mike. Interesting.

Why does the UOC in America and Canada use Ukrainian instead of Church Slavonic? Do they use CS in other countries?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2015, 09:14:10 AM by Cyrillic »

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2015, 09:32:10 AM »
Why does the UOC in America and Canada use Ukrainian instead of Church Slavonic?

They both take their origins, ideals and people from various iterations of UAOCs. And translation of services was one of the main goals of that movement. I do not think they ever used Cs.

Quote
Do they use CS in other countries?

Wouldn't be surprised if the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Diaspora (alias UOC-Usa goes by outside of the Us) used spanish or Portuguese in Latin America.
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Offline IreneOlinyk

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2015, 09:39:51 AM »


Why does the UOC in America and Canada use Ukrainian instead of Church Slavonic? Do they use CS in other countries?

For areas of Ukraine that used to be part of the Russian Empire, Church Slavonic in its Russian promounciation/ recension was forced upon the clergy & people.  In Bukovyna, which was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Ukrainian pronounciation/recension was retained. 
So, for areas of Ukraine that were part of the Russian Empire, Church Slavonic in its Russian recension and sermons in Russian were seen as tools of assimilation & Russian chauvinism.  That is why modern Ukrainian for the liturgy and for sermons was introduced. 
In Canada when the UOCC Was founded in 1918 one of its founding principles was the use of modern Ukrainian in the liturgy, sermons, teaching matierials and the church newspaper.

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2015, 11:52:46 AM »


Why does the UOC in America and Canada use Ukrainian instead of Church Slavonic? Do they use CS in other countries?

For areas of Ukraine that used to be part of the Russian Empire, Church Slavonic in its Russian promounciation/ recension was forced upon the clergy & people.  In Bukovyna, which was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Ukrainian pronounciation/recension was retained. 
So, for areas of Ukraine that were part of the Russian Empire, Church Slavonic in its Russian recension and sermons in Russian were seen as tools of assimilation & Russian chauvinism.  That is why modern Ukrainian for the liturgy and for sermons was introduced. 
In Canada when the UOCC Was founded in 1918 one of its founding principles was the use of modern Ukrainian in the liturgy, sermons, teaching matierials and the church newspaper.

Irene is right. To this day in Slovakia the Orthodox and Greek Catholics, when using CS do not use the Russian form of CS. You can hear this in the Panachida I posted from Svidnik in easren Slovakia. It's how I was taught and I got used to being congratulated by Ukrainians and criticised by Russians

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2015, 11:41:05 PM »
These forms of Church Slavonic, are they akin to accents?  Basically ways of pronouncing certain words, et cetera? 

I would expect my collection of the ecclesiastical music composed by Ukranian Catholic / Amerixan composer Roman Hurko would be in the Ukranian accent and the vast amount of material I have recorded by Russian choirs would be in the Russian style?  But are these things a non CS speaker can even notice?   When I listen to East Syriac or West Syriac music the difference is shockimg because of the preponderance of As or Os, but here I would guess the distinction is more subtle.
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2015, 12:01:12 AM »
But are these things a non CS speaker can even notice?   


Yes, they would be, for those who have ears to listen.
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2015, 12:20:58 AM »
These forms of Church Slavonic, are they akin to accents?  Basically ways of pronouncing certain words, et cetera? 

I would expect my collection of the ecclesiastical music composed by Ukranian Catholic / Amerixan composer Roman Hurko would be in the Ukranian accent and the vast amount of material I have recorded by Russian choirs would be in the Russian style?  But are these things a non CS speaker can even notice?   When I listen to East Syriac or West Syriac music the difference is shockimg because of the preponderance of As or Os, but here I would guess the distinction is more subtle.
Most noticeable is the lack of hard G in Ukrainian and Rusyn.  Hospodi not Gospodi.  Boh not Bog.  There is a hard G but it is for loan words as far as I can tell.  There are others.
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2015, 08:02:00 AM »
But are these things a non CS speaker can even notice?   

There are no Cs speakers. Cs is a dead language.
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Offline Tikhon29605

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2015, 09:27:05 AM »
These forms of Church Slavonic, are they akin to accents?  Basically ways of pronouncing certain words, et cetera? 

I would expect my collection of the ecclesiastical music composed by Ukranian Catholic / Amerixan composer Roman Hurko would be in the Ukranian accent and the vast amount of material I have recorded by Russian choirs would be in the Russian style?  But are these things a non CS speaker can even notice?   When I listen to East Syriac or West Syriac music the difference is shockimg because of the preponderance of As or Os, but here I would guess the distinction is more subtle.
Most noticeable is the lack of hard G in Ukrainian and Rusyn.  Hospodi not Gospodi.  Boh not Bog.  There is a hard G but it is for loan words as far as I can tell.  There are others.

Deacon Lance nailed it!  I cannot speak any Slavic language.  But I can and do notice the difference in pronunciation from Russian pronunciation of Church Slavonic and Ukrainian pronunciation of the same. Once even at my parish (we have several choir directors) and we were going to sing the responses to the Augmented Litany in Slavonic and there was, shall I say, a little "discussion" between the two directors on how to properly pronounce "Gospodi/Hospodi".  I stood there not saying a word.  Finally, it was decided that if the Ukrainian director was directing, we would sing "Hospodi", if the Russian guy was directing, we would sing, "Gospodi'.  Problem solved! :) 

Offline IreneOlinyk

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2015, 10:57:33 AM »
These forms of Church Slavonic, are they akin to accents?  Basically ways of pronouncing certain words, et cetera? 

I would expect my collection of the ecclesiastical music composed by Ukranian Catholic / Amerixan composer Roman Hurko would be in the Ukranian accent and the vast amount of material I have recorded by Russian choirs would be in the Russian style?  But are these things a non CS speaker can even notice?   When I listen to East Syriac or West Syriac music the difference is shockimg because of the preponderance of As or Os, but here I would guess the distinction is more subtle.
Most noticeable is the lack of hard G in Ukrainian and Rusyn.  Hospodi not Gospodi.  Boh not Bog.  There is a hard G but it is for loan words as far as I can tell.  There are others.

Deacon Lance nailed it!  I cannot speak any Slavic language.  But I can and do notice the difference in pronunciation from Russian pronunciation of Church Slavonic and Ukrainian pronunciation of the same. Once even at my parish (we have several choir directors) and we were going to sing the responses to the Augmented Litany in Slavonic and there was, shall I say, a little "discussion" between the two directors on how to properly pronounce "Gospodi/Hospodi".  I stood there not saying a word.  Finally, it was decided that if the Ukrainian director was directing, we would sing "Hospodi", if the Russian guy was directing, we would sing, "Gospodi'.  Problem solved! :)

You said "I cannot speak any Slavic language. "  So please do not trivialize the issue.  It is NOT just one simple letter.   When the Georgian Orthodox Church (a former autocephalous Church) and Georgia became part of the Russian Empire, that church was forced to have the liturgy celebrated in Church Slavonic.  Georgian is not a Slavic language.  The Finns who were Orthodox also had the liturgy cleebrated in Church Slavonic and Finnish is a Finno-Ugric language.

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2015, 10:59:07 AM »
The difference between Georgian and slavonic is slightly greater than between Russian and Ukrainian pronounciations of Cs. It is a trivial matter.
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Offline Tikhon29605

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2015, 11:20:53 AM »
These forms of Church Slavonic, are they akin to accents?  Basically ways of pronouncing certain words, et cetera? 

I would expect my collection of the ecclesiastical music composed by Ukranian Catholic / Amerixan composer Roman Hurko would be in the Ukranian accent and the vast amount of material I have recorded by Russian choirs would be in the Russian style?  But are these things a non CS speaker can even notice?   When I listen to East Syriac or West Syriac music the difference is shockimg because of the preponderance of As or Os, but here I would guess the distinction is more subtle.
Most noticeable is the lack of hard G in Ukrainian and Rusyn.  Hospodi not Gospodi.  Boh not Bog.  There is a hard G but it is for loan words as far as I can tell.  There are others.

Deacon Lance nailed it!  I cannot speak any Slavic language.  But I can and do notice the difference in pronunciation from Russian pronunciation of Church Slavonic and Ukrainian pronunciation of the same. Once even at my parish (we have several choir directors) and we were going to sing the responses to the Augmented Litany in Slavonic and there was, shall I say, a little "discussion" between the two directors on how to properly pronounce "Gospodi/Hospodi".  I stood there not saying a word.  Finally, it was decided that if the Ukrainian director was directing, we would sing "Hospodi", if the Russian guy was directing, we would sing, "Gospodi'.  Problem solved! :)

You said "I cannot speak any Slavic language. "  So please do not trivialize the issue.  It is NOT just one simple letter.   When the Georgian Orthodox Church (a former autocephalous Church) and Georgia became part of the Russian Empire, that church was forced to have the liturgy celebrated in Church Slavonic.  Georgian is not a Slavic language.  The Finns who were Orthodox also had the liturgy cleebrated in Church Slavonic and Finnish is a Finno-Ugric language.

Please do not be so hypersensitive.

I was not trivializing the issue nor do I  think the difference is just one simple letter.

I might be more on your side than you think.

I realize that modern Ukrainian is a separate language from modern Russian.  I respect that.  And I see nothing wrong with the Ukrainians using their own language.  In fact, it makes perfect sense to me.  I am also aware of the history of Imperial Russia where the Russian version of everything was forced on the entire Empire, even if the people were not ethnic Russians. I am not defending that either. In particular, it seems rather silly to have forced the ancient and venerable Church of Georgia to worship in Slavonic, when Georgian is not even a Slavic language and the Georgian language itself was the language of the people. 

All I am saying is that I recognize and respect the legitimate differences in how Ukrainians, Carpatho-Rusyns and Russians pronounce and sing the Church Slavonic language.  It is a difference that I can hear. I am certainly not saying that one is better than the other.

For instance, I have studied Latin.  And if I hear a choir sing in Latin, I can notice a difference between how Germans pronounce Latin and how Americans pronounce Latin.  Its a very slight difference when sung, but if you listen for it, esp. in the music of a Mozart Mass, you can detect an ever so slight difference.

I have had French friends of mine tell me that they can tell the difference between "French" French, Swiss French, and Canadian French very easily.  Even though I studied French for 4 years, that is a nuanced difference that eludes me.  I cannot tell any difference.  It all sounds the same to me.  But then I am not a native speaker.

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2015, 11:23:27 AM »
and the Georgian language itself was the language of the people. 

From what I've heard from Georgians liturgical Georgian is as close to modern Georgian as Cs to modern slavic languages, maybe even not so.
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Offline Tikhon29605

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2015, 11:31:16 AM »
and the Georgian language itself was the language of the people. 

From what I've heard from Georgians liturgical Georgian is as close to modern Georgian as Cs to modern slavic languages, maybe even not so.

Oh well.  I still bet the Georgians themselves prefer Liturgical Georgian over Church Slavonic, since it would still be the language of their people, albeit in an older and more archaic form.

Reminds me of when I studied Chaucer's Canterbury Tales in Middle English.  We could understand some of it, bits and pieces here and there. But thank goodness for the modern English translation on the facing page.  Without that I would have been lost.  I have had Russians tell me that Church Slavonic compares to modern Russian the way Chaucer's Middle English compares to our Modern English. Little bits and pieces come through every now and then, but on the whole its a completely separate language.

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2015, 01:32:19 PM »
What language do the Ukrainian Orthodox use it the liturgy? Church Slavonic or Ukrainian?

I've heard that the Ukrainian Greek Catholics use Ukrainian in the liturgy.


Has nothing to do with the local area.
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2015, 01:39:58 PM »
What language do the Ukrainian Orthodox use it the liturgy? Church Slavonic or Ukrainian?

I've heard that the Ukrainian Greek Catholics use Ukrainian in the liturgy.


Has nothing to do with the local area.

Thank you for this insightful contribution.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2015, 01:40:11 PM by Cyrillic »

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2015, 06:52:32 PM »
These forms of Church Slavonic, are they akin to accents?  Basically ways of pronouncing certain words, et cetera? 

I would expect my collection of the ecclesiastical music composed by Ukranian Catholic / Amerixan composer Roman Hurko would be in the Ukranian accent and the vast amount of material I have recorded by Russian choirs would be in the Russian style?  But are these things a non CS speaker can even notice?   When I listen to East Syriac or West Syriac music the difference is shockimg because of the preponderance of As or Os, but here I would guess the distinction is more subtle.
Most noticeable is the lack of hard G in Ukrainian and Rusyn.  Hospodi not Gospodi.  Boh not Bog.  There is a hard G but it is for loan words as far as I can tell.  There are others.

As far as these words go, the people of my Old Believer parish also pronounce them, and related words, without the hard G, though you'd never hear anyone self-identify as anything but Russian.
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2015, 06:59:17 PM »
What language do the Ukrainian Orthodox use it the liturgy? Church Slavonic or Ukrainian?

I've heard that the Ukrainian Greek Catholics use Ukrainian in the liturgy.

There is no Ukrainian language.

There is only Russian and the language that the Court of Austria-Hungary as an Vatican agent managed to produce and separate from a Russian dialect.
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2015, 08:05:33 PM »
These forms of Church Slavonic, are they akin to accents?  Basically ways of pronouncing certain words, et cetera? 

I would expect my collection of the ecclesiastical music composed by Ukranian Catholic / Amerixan composer Roman Hurko would be in the Ukranian accent and the vast amount of material I have recorded by Russian choirs would be in the Russian style?  But are these things a non CS speaker can even notice?   When I listen to East Syriac or West Syriac music the difference is shockimg because of the preponderance of As or Os, but here I would guess the distinction is more subtle.
Most noticeable is the lack of hard G in Ukrainian and Rusyn.  Hospodi not Gospodi.  Boh not Bog.  There is a hard G but it is for loan words as far as I can tell.  There are others.

As far as these words go, the people of my Old Believer parish also pronounce them, and related words, without the hard G, though you'd never hear anyone self-identify as anything but Russian.


Mine (not Old Believers but rather 'sectarians') as well.   I have been trying to research this for years, and the best I got is that there is a 'range' of dialects in Russian that encompasses large areas as you head south and west -towards- Ukraine, that have a different dialect, including the lack of a hard G and other sound changes.

So there is not some magical -line- in the language.....

« Last Edit: May 17, 2015, 08:05:50 PM by DeniseDenise »
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2015, 08:07:35 PM »
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2015, 10:06:23 PM »
These forms of Church Slavonic, are they akin to accents?  Basically ways of pronouncing certain words, et cetera? 

I would expect my collection of the ecclesiastical music composed by Ukranian Catholic / Amerixan composer Roman Hurko would be in the Ukranian accent and the vast amount of material I have recorded by Russian choirs would be in the Russian style?  But are these things a non CS speaker can even notice?   When I listen to East Syriac or West Syriac music the difference is shockimg because of the preponderance of As or Os, but here I would guess the distinction is more subtle.
Most noticeable is the lack of hard G in Ukrainian and Rusyn.  Hospodi not Gospodi.  Boh not Bog.  There is a hard G but it is for loan words as far as I can tell.  There are others.

As far as these words go, the people of my Old Believer parish also pronounce them, and related words, without the hard G, though you'd never hear anyone self-identify as anything but Russian.


Mine (not Old Believers but rather 'sectarians') as well.   I have been trying to research this for years, and the best I got is that there is a 'range' of dialects in Russian that encompasses large areas as you head south and west -towards- Ukraine, that have a different dialect, including the lack of a hard G and other sound changes.

So there is not some magical -line- in the language.....

While a segment of the population of my greater Old Believer community has Turkey as their place of origin, the majority actually come from Siberia and the Russian Far East, with most everyone locally belonging to the latter.

If there are lines, they're all over the place, crossing at odd angles and in odd manners.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2015, 10:09:07 PM by Hawkeye »
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2015, 01:30:31 AM »
These forms of Church Slavonic, are they akin to accents?  Basically ways of pronouncing certain words, et cetera? 

I would expect my collection of the ecclesiastical music composed by Ukranian Catholic / Amerixan composer Roman Hurko would be in the Ukranian accent and the vast amount of material I have recorded by Russian choirs would be in the Russian style?  But are these things a non CS speaker can even notice?   When I listen to East Syriac or West Syriac music the difference is shockimg because of the preponderance of As or Os, but here I would guess the distinction is more subtle.
Most noticeable is the lack of hard G in Ukrainian and Rusyn.  Hospodi not Gospodi.  Boh not Bog.  There is a hard G but it is for loan words as far as I can tell.  There are others.

As far as these words go, the people of my Old Believer parish also pronounce them, and related words, without the hard G, though you'd never hear anyone self-identify as anything but Russian.


Mine (not Old Believers but rather 'sectarians') as well.   I have been trying to research this for years, and the best I got is that there is a 'range' of dialects in Russian that encompasses large areas as you head south and west -towards- Ukraine, that have a different dialect, including the lack of a hard G and other sound changes.

So there is not some magical -line- in the language.....

While a segment of the population of my greater Old Believer community has Turkey as their place of origin, the majority actually come from Siberia and the Russian Far East, with most everyone locally belonging to the latter.

If there are lines, they're all over the place, crossing at odd angles and in odd manners.


I am going to give you what I know of such things and fully admit they are possibly wrong.

But at some point before the Old Believers ended up in Siberia, China, Turkey etc. were they not from elsewhere in Russia?  And either fled persecution and or migrated to retain some freedoms? I had read that they had.

Given that they also kept to themselves culturally their language patterns would not have changed to their 'new locale's' dialect very fast if ever.

My ancestors don't speak Turkish instead of Russian or speak Armenian even though they lived in both of those places for several centuries. They speak the Russian of the province they migrated FROM before that.
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2015, 02:11:57 AM »
...

My ancestors don't speak Turkish instead of Russian or speak Armenian even though they lived in both of those places for several centuries. They speak the Russian of the province they migrated FROM before that.


That is because both Armenian and Turkish do not belong to the group of Slavic languages.

If they had lived among other Slavic nation, they would have adopted the local dialect.

Spaniards that emigrate to, say, Mexico, or Brits that emigrate to, say, Australia, will adopt local dialects, too, but if Spaniards emigrate to, say, Australia, while Brits emigrate to, say, Mexico, they will retain their language in an unchanged form.
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2015, 02:21:35 AM »
...

My ancestors don't speak Turkish instead of Russian or speak Armenian even though they lived in both of those places for several centuries. They speak the Russian of the province they migrated FROM before that.


That is because both Armenian and Turkish do not belong to the group of Slavic languages.

If they had lived among other Slavic nation, they would have adopted the local dialect.

Spaniards that emigrate to, say, Mexico, or Brits that emigrate to, say, Australia, will adopt local dialects, too, but if Spaniards emigrate to, say, Australia, while Brits emigrate to, say, Mexico, they will retain their language in an unchanged form.

You have not met many people with accents then? 

By your logic there would over time be no such thing.

Sorry you are in error in this case because you have neglected to account for social prestige in language. 

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2015, 09:09:01 AM »
Quote
Sorry you are in error in this case because you have neglected to account for social prestige in language.

Can you please explain what you mean by social prestige in language. ?

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2015, 09:40:32 AM »
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prestige_%28sociolinguistics%29

In sociolinguistics, prestige is the level of respect accorded to a language or dialect as compared to that of other languages or dialects in a speech community. The concept of prestige in sociolinguistics is closely related to that of prestige or class within a society.



Basically if it was important socially that a group retain language or dialect use that they perceived as prestigious to them, they would keep it, even when it is at odds with the dominant speech patterns around them.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2015, 10:46:05 AM »
These forms of Church Slavonic, are they akin to accents?  Basically ways of pronouncing certain words, et cetera? 

I would expect my collection of the ecclesiastical music composed by Ukranian Catholic / Amerixan composer Roman Hurko would be in the Ukranian accent and the vast amount of material I have recorded by Russian choirs would be in the Russian style?  But are these things a non CS speaker can even notice?   When I listen to East Syriac or West Syriac music the difference is shockimg because of the preponderance of As or Os, but here I would guess the distinction is more subtle.
Most noticeable is the lack of hard G in Ukrainian and Rusyn.  Hospodi not Gospodi.  Boh not Bog.  There is a hard G but it is for loan words as far as I can tell.  There are others.

Deacon Lance nailed it!  I cannot speak any Slavic language.  But I can and do notice the difference in pronunciation from Russian pronunciation of Church Slavonic and Ukrainian pronunciation of the same. Once even at my parish (we have several choir directors) and we were going to sing the responses to the Augmented Litany in Slavonic and there was, shall I say, a little "discussion" between the two directors on how to properly pronounce "Gospodi/Hospodi".  I stood there not saying a word.  Finally, it was decided that if the Ukrainian director was directing, we would sing "Hospodi", if the Russian guy was directing, we would sing, "Gospodi'.  Problem solved! :)

I was at an ordination yesterday in Pittsburgh at an ACROD parish. The magnificent parish choir was responding  at the start of Liturgy, mostly English, some Slavonic through Svitisja/Shine, Shine. The accent was the general "Ukrainian" one. Otce Nas came around and I bristled...the pace of direction changed as well as the accent. My  mind was racing...did the Russians invade and throw the director over the railing???(just kidding...) It was a local area men's concert choir noted for classical Russian liturgical concert performances in which the young man being ordained was a member. Yes...the difference in accent would be noticeable to a casual listener. Both are fine...I bristled because I didn't expect it and I am used to the Church choir's style.

And in say 1935 one entered that particular church and began singing in the accent of the concert choir...it's fair to assume arguments and worse would break out. Thanks to God, most of us have moved beyond such nonsense.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2015, 10:53:38 AM by podkarpatska »

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2015, 11:39:13 AM »
Do you think if Hayabusa and Pavroslavac ever met they'd annihilate each other like matter and antimatter?
Let's not go there with that off-topic conjecture about individual posters.
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2015, 12:04:46 PM »
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prestige_%28sociolinguistics%29

In sociolinguistics, prestige is the level of respect accorded to a language or dialect as compared to that of other languages or dialects in a speech community. The concept of prestige in sociolinguistics is closely related to that of prestige or class within a society.



Basically if it was important socially that a group retain language or dialect use that they perceived as prestigious to them, they would keep it, even when it is at odds with the dominant speech patterns around them.
Thanks for your response and the link too. Very interesting.  I remember from history that for example Jews in Eastern Europe would continue to use Yiddish depending on class status but over the generations and as they moved up the social scale or assimilated or became secular  adopt the langauge of the conqueror or ruler/ government as borders changed: so in Galicia for example using German under the Austrian Rulers, then Polish and then in the USSR Russian.

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2015, 12:22:20 PM »
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prestige_%28sociolinguistics%29

In sociolinguistics, prestige is the level of respect accorded to a language or dialect as compared to that of other languages or dialects in a speech community. The concept of prestige in sociolinguistics is closely related to that of prestige or class within a society.



Basically if it was important socially that a group retain language or dialect use that they perceived as prestigious to them, they would keep it, even when it is at odds with the dominant speech patterns around them.
Thanks for your response and the link too. Very interesting.  I remember from history that for example Jews in Eastern Europe would continue to use Yiddish depending on class status but over the generations and as they moved up the social scale or assimilated or became secular  adopt the langauge of the conqueror or ruler/ government as borders changed: so in Galicia for example using German under the Austrian Rulers, then Polish and then in the USSR Russian.


yes...and what is considered -prestige- for a certain group might not be what is obvious to an outsider.  So it is not -always- a case of  'richer fancier' being prestige.  If you are in a working class area for example, and you are college educated, you might speak like those around you, ie. more working class, because that's what is of value to fitting in your social group.

So in the example here, a group might keep a non-standard Russian dialect, over distances and centuries from where it and their culture group originated...because to them it means 'membership' in the group vs being outside it (even if both speak the same language technically'

I can only give personal examples but the group my relatives belong to, left south-central Russia for the Caucasus region well before the 1800's and did not leave for the US until about 1900 or so.   They still speak to this day a 'G-less' variety of Russian, despite being taught by outsiders, or in university.  At home, you revert to G-less.  Otherwise you are not 'Us' you are 'Them'

 
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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2015, 12:37:24 PM »
And just for the curious...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_dialects

on the map on that page is a little red line that generally corresponds with the Southern Dialects that has the no hard G feature.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Russian_dialects
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2015, 01:02:03 PM »
And just for the curious...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_dialects

on the map on that page is a little red line that generally corresponds with the Southern Dialects that has the no hard G feature.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Russian_dialects

For the linguaphiles out there, this is interesting as well.." The Vanishing Galician Accent and How it Lingers in the Diaspora."  http://shadowsofaforgottenworld.blogspot.com/2015/04/vanishing-galician-accent-sound-of.html

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2015, 11:54:18 AM »
Christos Voskrese!
And just for the curious...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_dialects

on the map on that page is a little red line that generally corresponds with the Southern Dialects that has the no hard G feature.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Russian_dialects

For the linguaphiles out there, this is interesting as well.." The Vanishing Galician Accent and How it Lingers in the Diaspora."  http://shadowsofaforgottenworld.blogspot.com/2015/04/vanishing-galician-accent-sound-of.html
I remember my first time in the parish which received me, an old fashioned OCA Carpatho-Russian parish. I had never heard of them before, but when I heard the Divine Liturgy in their Slavonic I said to the priest "Oh, so you're Ukrainian" (I had dated a Ukrainian girl).
"Well....." he said "the Ukrainians were on their side of the mountain and we were on our side of the mountain."
"And" I added "you both went to Church on Sunday to thank God for the mountain." :laugh:

I'm not sure I agree with the links take on the "B" in Ukrainian. And the interchange with l is also seen in Belarussian.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2015, 05:50:26 PM »
Christos Voskrese!
And just for the curious...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_dialects

on the map on that page is a little red line that generally corresponds with the Southern Dialects that has the no hard G feature.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Russian_dialects

For the linguaphiles out there, this is interesting as well.." The Vanishing Galician Accent and How it Lingers in the Diaspora."  http://shadowsofaforgottenworld.blogspot.com/2015/04/vanishing-galician-accent-sound-of.html
I remember my first time in the parish which received me, an old fashioned OCA Carpatho-Russian parish. I had never heard of them before, but when I heard the Divine Liturgy in their Slavonic I said to the priest "Oh, so you're Ukrainian" (I had dated a Ukrainian girl).
"Well....." he said "the Ukrainians were on their side of the mountain and we were on our side of the mountain."
"And" I added "you both went to Church on Sunday to thank God for the mountain." :laugh:

I'm not sure I agree with the links take on the "B" in Ukrainian. And the interchange with l is also seen in Belarussian.

Isa: I.am going to remember that quip about the mountain.You would have split my late father's side with laughter had he heard it. Thanks!

Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #40 on: May 19, 2015, 06:53:00 PM »
Christos Voskrese!
And just for the curious...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_dialects

on the map on that page is a little red line that generally corresponds with the Southern Dialects that has the no hard G feature.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Russian_dialects

For the linguaphiles out there, this is interesting as well.." The Vanishing Galician Accent and How it Lingers in the Diaspora."  http://shadowsofaforgottenworld.blogspot.com/2015/04/vanishing-galician-accent-sound-of.html
I remember my first time in the parish which received me, an old fashioned OCA Carpatho-Russian parish. I had never heard of them before, but when I heard the Divine Liturgy in their Slavonic I said to the priest "Oh, so you're Ukrainian" (I had dated a Ukrainian girl).
"Well....." he said "the Ukrainians were on their side of the mountain and we were on our side of the mountain."
"And" I added "you both went to Church on Sunday to thank God for the mountain." :laugh:

I'm not sure I agree with the links take on the "B" in Ukrainian. And the interchange with l is also seen in Belarussian.

Isa: I.am going to remember that quip about the mountain.You would have split my late father's side with laughter had he heard it. Thanks!

Do the Rusyns/Ruthenians/Carpatho-Russians have a name for their historic homeland (other than Ruthenia, of course)?
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #41 on: May 20, 2015, 10:26:10 AM »
Christos Voskrese!
And just for the curious...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_dialects

on the map on that page is a little red line that generally corresponds with the Southern Dialects that has the no hard G feature.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Russian_dialects

For the linguaphiles out there, this is interesting as well.." The Vanishing Galician Accent and How it Lingers in the Diaspora."  http://shadowsofaforgottenworld.blogspot.com/2015/04/vanishing-galician-accent-sound-of.html
I remember my first time in the parish which received me, an old fashioned OCA Carpatho-Russian parish. I had never heard of them before, but when I heard the Divine Liturgy in their Slavonic I said to the priest "Oh, so you're Ukrainian" (I had dated a Ukrainian girl).
"Well....." he said "the Ukrainians were on their side of the mountain and we were on our side of the mountain."
"And" I added "you both went to Church on Sunday to thank God for the mountain." :laugh:

I'm not sure I agree with the links take on the "B" in Ukrainian. And the interchange with l is also seen in Belarussian.

Isa: I.am going to remember that quip about the mountain.You would have split my late father's side with laughter had he heard it. Thanks!

Do the Rusyns/Ruthenians/Carpatho-Russians have a name for their historic homeland (other than Ruthenia, of course)?

That is a question sure to provoke argument. It depends on any number of variables, but in truth the region(s) in question have always been a part of one or more larger entities, depending on a particular point in time.

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #42 on: May 20, 2015, 10:45:07 AM »
There is no Ukrainian serbian language.

There is only Russian and the language that the Court of Austria-Hungary as an Vatican agent Turks and Albanians managed to produce and separate from a Russian dialect.

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2015, 07:46:10 AM »
Why not adopt Slavonic with a Ukrainian pronunciation for UOCUSA or UOC-Canada churches, or parallel Slavonic-Ukrainian? That would seem to solve the issue of "Russian" Slavonic, would enable Slavonic to be retained, for mutual intelligibility with other Orthodox Slavs, and enable them to be distinctly Ukrainian. AFAIK, that is what the canonical UOC-MP does, and the diaspora churches could reasonably adopt that. The parallel Slavonic-Ukrainian is for those parishes that do use Ukrainian.

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Re: Language and the Ukrainian Orthodox
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2015, 10:42:45 PM »
Why not adopt Slavonic with a Ukrainian pronunciation for UOCUSA or UOC-Canada churches, or parallel Slavonic-Ukrainian? That would seem to solve the issue of "Russian" Slavonic, would enable Slavonic to be retained, for mutual intelligibility with other Orthodox Slavs, and enable them to be distinctly Ukrainian. AFAIK, that is what the canonical UOC-MP does, and the diaspora churches could reasonably adopt that. The parallel Slavonic-Ukrainian is for those parishes that do use Ukrainian.

Why would any serious consideration be given to returning to Church Slavonic, regardless of pronunciation? Are you likewise urging the OCA to drop English and reinstate Church Slavonic?  AFAIK when using Slavonic Ukrainiians from the eastern Ukraine tend toward the Russian pronunciation while those from the center to the west tend towards the Ukrainian pronunciation There is no issue regarding  "mutual intelligibility" as one: the differences are subtle (try Appalachian American English as contrasted with standard American English) and two: Church Slavonic is not, by itself, intelligible in terms of being understood by the masses anyway.