Author Topic: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.  (Read 6537 times)

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Offline Xavier

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Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« on: May 06, 2015, 07:39:25 AM »
The Patriarchal Letter of 1895 states, "if the Westerns prove from the teaching of the holy Fathers and the divinely assembled Ecumenical Councils that the then orthodox Roman Church, which was throughout the West, even before the ninth century .. accepted the doctrine of a purgatorial fire ... we have no more to say." Why doesn't Pope St. Gregory the Great's well known teaching of purgatory meet this criteria? As even Wikipedia notes, "Pope St. Gregory the Great says that the belief in Purgatory is “established” (constat), and “to be believed” (credendum), insisting however, that the Purgatorial fire can only purify away minor transgressions, not “iron, bronze, or lead,” or other “hardened” (duriora) sins." This teaching was practically unanimous in the West at least, this is from the Catholic Encyclopedia,

According to St. Isidore of Seville (Deord. creatur., c. xiv, n. 6) these words [Mat 12:32] prove that in the next life "some sins will be forgiven and purged away by a certain purifying fire." ... Augustine (Enarration on Psalm 37, no. 3) speaks of the pain which purgatorial fire causes as more severe than anything a man can suffer in this life, "gravior erit ignis quam quidquid potest homo pati in hac vita" (P.L., col. 397). Gregory the Great speaks of those who after this life "will expiate their faults by purgatorial flames," and he adds "that the pain be more intolerable than any one can suffer in this life" (Ps. 3 poenit., n. 1). http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

In the intermediate state before the final Judgment, Dives (the Rich Man) says "I am tormented in this flame." (Lk 16:24).  St. Cyprian, St. Caesarius and many other Fathers and Saints have taught purgatory, they point to Christ saying no one will get out of the prison until he has paid the last penny. Even in the East, there have been many who speculated, most famously St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Isaac the Syrian, that even hell itself would be intrinsically purgatorial and purifying. St. Augustine notes a similar widely held idea in his day, "There are very many, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments." It is precisely to avoid this that St. Augustine and later St. Gregory the Great distinguish between slight sins and excessively grave ones, noting the saying of Our Lord that some sins are so grave they are not forgiven either in this world or the world to come, and of course 1 Cor 3:15, St. Gregory the Great says, "the Apostle said not that he may be saved by fire, that buildeth upon this foundation iron, brass, or lead, that is, the greater sort of sins, and therefore more hard, and consequently not remissible in that place: but wood, hay, stubble, that is, little and very light sins, which the fire doth easily consume. Yet we have here further to consider, that none can be there purged, no, not for the least sins that be, unless in his lifetime he deserved by virtuous works to find such favour in that place."

It even predates Christianity, as Fr. William Saunders notes, "Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out," (2 Mc 12:43) and "Thus, (Judas Maccabees) made atonement for the dead that they might be free from sin" (2 Mc 12:46). This passage gives evidence of the Jewish practice of offering prayers and sacrifices to cleanse the soul of the departed. Rabbinic interpretation of Scripture also attests to the belief. In the Book of the prophet Zechariah, the Lord spoke, "I will bring the one third through fire, and I will refine them as silver is refined, and I will test them as gold is tested" (Zec 13:9). The school of Rabbi Shammai interpreted this passage as a purification of the soul through God's mercy and goodness, preparing it for eternal life." https://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/BASISPUR.HTM

The Apocalypse of Peter was once upon a time widely accepted and even regarded as canonical by some of the Fathers, it describes many punishments souls undergo, each proper to the malice and duration of their sin, among others, "and there came forth from them sparks of fire and smote the women in the eyes: and these were the accursed who conceived and caused abortion." The Church has never defined the nature of the fire in hell or purgatory, although there are different legitimate theologoumena in both East and West to explain it.

But given the clear imagery of fire used in Sacred Scripture, in the Fathers and in Pope St. Gregory the Great, why do many Orthodox still object to the teaching of purgatory?
« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 07:47:34 AM by Xavier »
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2015, 09:05:17 AM »
Because purgatorial fire is a heresy...  ::)

God is our consuming fire. (Hebrews 12:29), not magic or created graces of any strange pagan origin. Orthodox obviously don't object to the concept of purgation or even of fire, it's what is meant by those words which Orthodox object to. Latins mean some sort of pagan flame (think Dante,) that will engulf you in the realm of purgatory (wherever that is...), whereas Orthodox mean the fire of God's love.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 09:08:57 AM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2015, 09:17:55 AM »
The Patriarchal Letter of 1895 states, "if the Westerns prove from the teaching of the holy Fathers and the divinely assembled Ecumenical Councils that the then orthodox Roman Church, which was throughout the West, even before the ninth century .. accepted the doctrine of a purgatorial fire ... we have no more to say." Why doesn't Pope St. Gregory the Great's well known teaching of purgatory meet this criteria? As even Wikipedia notes, "Pope St. Gregory the Great says that the belief in Purgatory is “established” (constat), and “to be believed” (credendum), insisting however, that the Purgatorial fire can only purify away minor transgressions, not “iron, bronze, or lead,” or other “hardened” (duriora) sins." This teaching was practically unanimous in the West at least, this is from the Catholic Encyclopedia,

According to St. Isidore of Seville (Deord. creatur., c. xiv, n. 6) these words [Mat 12:32] prove that in the next life "some sins will be forgiven and purged away by a certain purifying fire." ... Augustine (Enarration on Psalm 37, no. 3) speaks of the pain which purgatorial fire causes as more severe than anything a man can suffer in this life, "gravior erit ignis quam quidquid potest homo pati in hac vita" (P.L., col. 397). Gregory the Great speaks of those who after this life "will expiate their faults by purgatorial flames," and he adds "that the pain be more intolerable than any one can suffer in this life" (Ps. 3 poenit., n. 1). http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

In the intermediate state before the final Judgment, Dives (the Rich Man) says "I am tormented in this flame." (Lk 16:24).  St. Cyprian, St. Caesarius and many other Fathers and Saints have taught purgatory, they point to Christ saying no one will get out of the prison until he has paid the last penny. Even in the East, there have been many who speculated, most famously St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Isaac the Syrian, that even hell itself would be intrinsically purgatorial and purifying. St. Augustine notes a similar widely held idea in his day, "There are very many, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments." It is precisely to avoid this that St. Augustine and later St. Gregory the Great distinguish between slight sins and excessively grave ones, noting the saying of Our Lord that some sins are so grave they are not forgiven either in this world or the world to come, and of course 1 Cor 3:15, St. Gregory the Great says, "the Apostle said not that he may be saved by fire, that buildeth upon this foundation iron, brass, or lead, that is, the greater sort of sins, and therefore more hard, and consequently not remissible in that place: but wood, hay, stubble, that is, little and very light sins, which the fire doth easily consume. Yet we have here further to consider, that none can be there purged, no, not for the least sins that be, unless in his lifetime he deserved by virtuous works to find such favour in that place."

It even predates Christianity, as Fr. William Saunders notes, "Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out," (2 Mc 12:43) and "Thus, (Judas Maccabees) made atonement for the dead that they might be free from sin" (2 Mc 12:46). This passage gives evidence of the Jewish practice of offering prayers and sacrifices to cleanse the soul of the departed. Rabbinic interpretation of Scripture also attests to the belief. In the Book of the prophet Zechariah, the Lord spoke, "I will bring the one third through fire, and I will refine them as silver is refined, and I will test them as gold is tested" (Zec 13:9). The school of Rabbi Shammai interpreted this passage as a purification of the soul through God's mercy and goodness, preparing it for eternal life." https://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/BASISPUR.HTM

The Apocalypse of Peter was once upon a time widely accepted and even regarded as canonical by some of the Fathers, it describes many punishments souls undergo, each proper to the malice and duration of their sin, among others, "and there came forth from them sparks of fire and smote the women in the eyes: and these were the accursed who conceived and caused abortion." The Church has never defined the nature of the fire in hell or purgatory, although there are different legitimate theologoumena in both East and West to explain it.

But given the clear imagery of fire used in Sacred Scripture, in the Fathers and in Pope St. Gregory the Great, why do many Orthodox still object to the teaching of purgatory?

I don't know, exactly.  I think it might have to do with the fact that we are schismatics who refuse to submit to the Roman Pontiff because we are rebellious at heart and don't understand basic truths.  It couldn't be because we have considered all of these supposed facts and others and have our own responses as to why they don't mean what you think they mean, or because we have other evidence to support our position.  We're so dumb.  :)

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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2015, 09:21:03 AM »
I thought Florence said that a literal fire wasn't meant and that fire is just one of the ways to describe a process of purgation after death.

Did they change it all again?
« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 09:21:14 AM by Cyrillic »

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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2015, 09:23:03 AM »
The Patriarchal Letter of 1895 states, "if the Westerns prove from the teaching of the holy Fathers and the divinely assembled Ecumenical Councils that the then orthodox Roman Church, which was throughout the West, even before the ninth century .. accepted the doctrine of a purgatorial fire ... we have no more to say." Why doesn't Pope St. Gregory the Great's well known teaching of purgatory meet this criteria? As even Wikipedia notes, "Pope St. Gregory the Great says that the belief in Purgatory is “established” (constat), and “to be believed” (credendum), insisting however, that the Purgatorial fire can only purify away minor transgressions, not “iron, bronze, or lead,” or other “hardened” (duriora) sins." This teaching was practically unanimous in the West at least, this is from the Catholic Encyclopedia,

According to St. Isidore of Seville (Deord. creatur., c. xiv, n. 6) these words [Mat 12:32] prove that in the next life "some sins will be forgiven and purged away by a certain purifying fire." ... Augustine (Enarration on Psalm 37, no. 3) speaks of the pain which purgatorial fire causes as more severe than anything a man can suffer in this life, "gravior erit ignis quam quidquid potest homo pati in hac vita" (P.L., col. 397). Gregory the Great speaks of those who after this life "will expiate their faults by purgatorial flames," and he adds "that the pain be more intolerable than any one can suffer in this life" (Ps. 3 poenit., n. 1). http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

In the intermediate state before the final Judgment, Dives (the Rich Man) says "I am tormented in this flame." (Lk 16:24).  St. Cyprian, St. Caesarius and many other Fathers and Saints have taught purgatory, they point to Christ saying no one will get out of the prison until he has paid the last penny. Even in the East, there have been many who speculated, most famously St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Isaac the Syrian, that even hell itself would be intrinsically purgatorial and purifying. St. Augustine notes a similar widely held idea in his day, "There are very many, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments." It is precisely to avoid this that St. Augustine and later St. Gregory the Great distinguish between slight sins and excessively grave ones, noting the saying of Our Lord that some sins are so grave they are not forgiven either in this world or the world to come, and of course 1 Cor 3:15, St. Gregory the Great says, "the Apostle said not that he may be saved by fire, that buildeth upon this foundation iron, brass, or lead, that is, the greater sort of sins, and therefore more hard, and consequently not remissible in that place: but wood, hay, stubble, that is, little and very light sins, which the fire doth easily consume. Yet we have here further to consider, that none can be there purged, no, not for the least sins that be, unless in his lifetime he deserved by virtuous works to find such favour in that place."

It even predates Christianity, as Fr. William Saunders notes, "Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out," (2 Mc 12:43) and "Thus, (Judas Maccabees) made atonement for the dead that they might be free from sin" (2 Mc 12:46). This passage gives evidence of the Jewish practice of offering prayers and sacrifices to cleanse the soul of the departed. Rabbinic interpretation of Scripture also attests to the belief. In the Book of the prophet Zechariah, the Lord spoke, "I will bring the one third through fire, and I will refine them as silver is refined, and I will test them as gold is tested" (Zec 13:9). The school of Rabbi Shammai interpreted this passage as a purification of the soul through God's mercy and goodness, preparing it for eternal life." https://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/BASISPUR.HTM

The Apocalypse of Peter was once upon a time widely accepted and even regarded as canonical by some of the Fathers, it describes many punishments souls undergo, each proper to the malice and duration of their sin, among others, "and there came forth from them sparks of fire and smote the women in the eyes: and these were the accursed who conceived and caused abortion." The Church has never defined the nature of the fire in hell or purgatory, although there are different legitimate theologoumena in both East and West to explain it.

But given the clear imagery of fire used in Sacred Scripture, in the Fathers and in Pope St. Gregory the Great, why do many Orthodox still object to the teaching of purgatory?

I don't know, exactly.  I think it might have to do with the fact that we are schismatics who refuse to submit to the Roman Pontiff because we are rebellious at heart and don't understand basic truths.  It couldn't be because we have considered all of these supposed facts and others and have our own responses as to why they don't mean what you think they mean, or because we have other evidence to support our position.  We're so dumb.  :)

Indeed. We don't listen to the big mean ole' Pope, we listen to Mor Ephrem.
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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2015, 09:24:44 AM »
The Purgatorio is my favorite part of the Divine Comedy and I don't know why anyone would label it especially "pagan." The Orthodox do have a concept like purgatory- how close it is to the RC view is a matter of dispute, but the idea of a purifying fire isn't inherently heretical.
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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2015, 09:26:40 AM »
But here's a question for you, Xavier: in the final conflagration, will that cheesy Divine Mercy painting get burned up with the rest of the world's dross? Dare we hope?
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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2015, 09:30:12 AM »
will that cheesy Divine Mercy painting get burned up with the rest of the world's dross? Dare we hope?

For kitsch there's a special art hell. That's where most, if not all, of the RC 'artwork' is going. It's way beyond art purgatory now.

The cheesy, effeminate and sentimental paintings of Christ and the saints seriously creep me out. Oftentime it depicts our Lord as a teenage girl with a beard. The painted statuary usually creep me out as well. It's often so ugly that it is enough to make an ardent iconoclast out of anyone with at least a bit of good taste.

They should go back to icons, stained glass and marble statuary in the style of Raphael's Pieta (no paint please!).

Aesthetics matter.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 10:00:11 AM by Cyrillic »

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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2015, 09:38:52 AM »
The Purgatorio is my favorite part of the Divine Comedy and I don't know why anyone would label it especially "pagan." The Orthodox do have a concept like purgatory- how close it is to the RC view is a matter of dispute, but the idea of a purifying fire isn't inherently heretical.

I think I read it in a council, or an encyclical, that derides the idea as a "pagan Greek idea".
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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2015, 09:58:17 AM »
Indeed. We don't listen to the big mean ole' Pope, we listen to Mor Ephrem.

And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of Mor. 

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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2015, 10:26:42 AM »
will that cheesy Divine Mercy painting get burned up with the rest of the world's dross? Dare we hope?

For kitsch there's a special art hell. That's where most, if not all, of the RC 'artwork' is going. It's way beyond art purgatory now.

The cheesy, effeminate and sentimental paintings of Christ and the saints seriously creep me out. Oftentime it depicts our Lord as a teenage girl with a beard. The painted statuary usually creep me out as well. It's often so ugly that it is enough to make an ardent iconoclast out of anyone with at least a bit of good taste.

They should go back to icons, stained glass and marble statuary in the style of Raphael's Pieta (no paint please!).

Aesthetics matter.

That being said, there's a lot in the Latin Church which is beautiful, in some cases those things are as beautiful or even more beautiful than that which the Greek Church possesses: Gregorian chants, stained glass, the Tridentine and Ambrosian mass, Gothic cathedrals, medieval statuary, etc. etc.

They just need to clean up a lot of the recent (and sadly, extremely popular) schlock. Too bad that a lot of the things mentioned on my list fell (or are falling) into disuse.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 10:31:53 AM by Cyrillic »

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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2015, 01:33:18 PM »
A few years before I converted, I used to go to Roman Catholic bookstores. They carried a lot of books and art mementos designed in the 1970s. I thought they tended to be very tacky, and didn't help a person concentrate on the faith. Now that I'm Orthodox, I'm glad I don't see the syrupy sentimental book covers with baby angels and such.
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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2015, 01:49:47 PM »
will that cheesy Divine Mercy painting get burned up with the rest of the world's dross? Dare we hope?

For kitsch there's a special art hell. That's where most, if not all, of the RC 'artwork' is going. It's way beyond art purgatory now.

The cheesy, effeminate and sentimental paintings of Christ and the saints seriously creep me out. Oftentime it depicts our Lord as a teenage girl with a beard. The painted statuary usually creep me out as well. It's often so ugly that it is enough to make an ardent iconoclast out of anyone with at least a bit of good taste.

They should go back to icons, stained glass and marble statuary in the style of Raphael's Pieta (no paint please!).

Aesthetics matter.

That being said, there's a lot in the Latin Church which is beautiful, in some cases those things are as beautiful or even more beautiful than that which the Greek Church possesses: Gregorian chants, stained glass, the Tridentine and Ambrosian mass, Gothic cathedrals, medieval statuary, etc. etc.

They just need to clean up a lot of the recent (and sadly, extremely popular) schlock. Too bad that a lot of the things mentioned on my list fell (or are falling) into disuse.

I like Catholic kitsch. Wouldn't hang it up on churchs' walls but otherwise it's nice. Many pieces seem quite tattoo-ish even.
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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2015, 01:50:55 PM »
will that cheesy Divine Mercy painting get burned up with the rest of the world's dross? Dare we hope?

For kitsch there's a special art hell. That's where most, if not all, of the RC 'artwork' is going. It's way beyond art purgatory now.

The cheesy, effeminate and sentimental paintings of Christ and the saints seriously creep me out. Oftentime it depicts our Lord as a teenage girl with a beard. The painted statuary usually creep me out as well. It's often so ugly that it is enough to make an ardent iconoclast out of anyone with at least a bit of good taste.

They should go back to icons, stained glass and marble statuary in the style of Raphael's Pieta (no paint please!).

Aesthetics matter.

That being said, there's a lot in the Latin Church which is beautiful, in some cases those things are as beautiful or even more beautiful than that which the Greek Church possesses: Gregorian chants, stained glass, the Tridentine and Ambrosian mass, Gothic cathedrals, medieval statuary, etc. etc.

They just need to clean up a lot of the recent (and sadly, extremely popular) schlock. Too bad that a lot of the things mentioned on my list fell (or are falling) into disuse.

I like Catholic kitsch. Wouldn't hang it up on churchs' walls but otherwise it's nice. Many pieces seem quite tattoo-ish even.

The Sacred Heart images especially.
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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2015, 01:53:16 PM »
Xavier, it would be good for you to read the response of St. Mark of Ephesus at the Council of Florence regarding Purgatory.  This is also a very good overview of the subject from the book "The History of the Council of Florence" by Basil Popoff, starting at p.47.

https://books.google.com/books?id=GUyPk9EFgbIC&dq=history%20of%20the%20council%20of%20florence&pg=PA47#v=onepage&q&f=false

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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2015, 01:59:51 PM »
will that cheesy Divine Mercy painting get burned up with the rest of the world's dross? Dare we hope?

For kitsch there's a special art hell. That's where most, if not all, of the RC 'artwork' is going. It's way beyond art purgatory now.

The cheesy, effeminate and sentimental paintings of Christ and the saints seriously creep me out. Oftentime it depicts our Lord as a teenage girl with a beard. The painted statuary usually creep me out as well. It's often so ugly that it is enough to make an ardent iconoclast out of anyone with at least a bit of good taste.

They should go back to icons, stained glass and marble statuary in the style of Raphael's Pieta (no paint please!).

Aesthetics matter.

That being said, there's a lot in the Latin Church which is beautiful, in some cases those things are as beautiful or even more beautiful than that which the Greek Church possesses: Gregorian chants, stained glass, the Tridentine and Ambrosian mass, Gothic cathedrals, medieval statuary, etc. etc.

They just need to clean up a lot of the recent (and sadly, extremely popular) schlock. Too bad that a lot of the things mentioned on my list fell (or are falling) into disuse.

I like Catholic kitsch. Wouldn't hang it up on churchs' walls but otherwise it's nice. Many pieces seem quite tattoo-ish even.

The Sacred Heart images especially.

Nay, nay and nay again. Those are the very worst. You should both be ashamed.

Well, the teenage Jesus images might be even worse.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 02:00:45 PM by Cyrillic »

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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2015, 02:03:45 PM »
I like Catholic kitsch. Wouldn't hang it up on churchs' walls but otherwise it's nice. Many pieces seem quite tattoo-ish even.

The Sacred Heart images especially.

Nay, nay and nay again. Those are the very worst. You should both be ashamed.

Well, the teenage Jesus images might be even worse.




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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2015, 02:04:18 PM »
That made me sad.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 02:04:44 PM by Cyrillic »

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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2015, 02:08:12 PM »
They should go back to icons, stained glass and marble statuary in the style of Raphael's Pieta (no paint please!).

Or plaster, resin, reconstructed stone... Marble is overpriced, after all. As long as the temptation to add 'finishing touches' is resisted. ;)
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Offline biro

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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2015, 02:09:08 PM »
will that cheesy Divine Mercy painting get burned up with the rest of the world's dross? Dare we hope?

For kitsch there's a special art hell. That's where most, if not all, of the RC 'artwork' is going. It's way beyond art purgatory now.

The cheesy, effeminate and sentimental paintings of Christ and the saints seriously creep me out. Oftentime it depicts our Lord as a teenage girl with a beard. The painted statuary usually creep me out as well. It's often so ugly that it is enough to make an ardent iconoclast out of anyone with at least a bit of good taste.

They should go back to icons, stained glass and marble statuary in the style of Raphael's Pieta (no paint please!).

Aesthetics matter.

That being said, there's a lot in the Latin Church which is beautiful, in some cases those things are as beautiful or even more beautiful than that which the Greek Church possesses: Gregorian chants, stained glass, the Tridentine and Ambrosian mass, Gothic cathedrals, medieval statuary, etc. etc.

They just need to clean up a lot of the recent (and sadly, extremely popular) schlock. Too bad that a lot of the things mentioned on my list fell (or are falling) into disuse.

I like Catholic kitsch. Wouldn't hang it up on churchs' walls but otherwise it's nice. Many pieces seem quite tattoo-ish even.

The Sacred Heart images especially.

Nay, nay and nay again. Those are the very worst. You should both be ashamed.

Well, the teenage Jesus images might be even worse.

I said the heart looks like something people would put in a tattoo. Didn't say I liked it.
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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2015, 02:11:28 PM »
They should go back to icons, stained glass and marble statuary in the style of Raphael's Pieta (no paint please!).

Or plaster, resin, reconstructed stone... Marble is overpriced, after all.

Well, I suppose we could forgive them that.

I said the heart looks like something people would put in a tattoo. Didn't say I liked it.

I thought you were responding to Alpo's "I like Catholic kitsch".
« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 02:12:43 PM by Cyrillic »

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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2015, 02:16:10 PM »
That made me sad.

Cheer up, young man.  They have soccer football too:


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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2015, 02:17:40 PM »
That made me sad.

Cheer up, young man.  They have soccer football too:



« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 02:18:44 PM by Iconodule »
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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2015, 02:21:15 PM »
That made me sad.

Cheer up, young man.  They have soccer football too:



Playing football whilst wearing sandels is going to hurt.

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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2015, 02:21:32 PM »
I would propably hang a picture of Sacred Heart on my own wall but seems blasphemous to have it just as a decoration.
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2015, 02:30:23 PM »
That made me sad.

Cheer up, young man.  They have soccer football too:



Playing football whilst wearing sandels is going to hurt.

This is where a Monophysite Jesus would come in handy. 

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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2015, 02:31:30 PM »
That made me sad.

Cheer up, young man.  They have soccer football too:





They've come a long way from those Infant of Prague dresses, haven't they? 

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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2015, 11:11:40 PM »
Because purgatorial fire is a heresy...  ::)

God is our consuming fire. (Hebrews 12:29), not magic or created graces of any strange pagan origin. Orthodox obviously don't object to the concept of purgation or even of fire, it's what is meant by those words which Orthodox object to. Latins mean some sort of pagan flame (think Dante,) that will engulf you in the realm of purgatory (wherever that is...), whereas Orthodox mean the fire of God's love.
Clearly you know little about our belief in purgatory. Pagan flame? What is that? I would recommend reading Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI's encyclical Spe Salvi, where he talks about the cleansing fire of purgatory being Christ Himself.

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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2015, 11:15:18 PM »


There's no way in Hell that I want that thing staring at me in the middle of the night when the lights are out
« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 11:15:34 PM by sakura95 »
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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2015, 11:45:10 PM »
Because purgatorial fire is a heresy...  ::)

God is our consuming fire. (Hebrews 12:29), not magic or created graces of any strange pagan origin. Orthodox obviously don't object to the concept of purgation or even of fire, it's what is meant by those words which Orthodox object to. Latins mean some sort of pagan flame (think Dante,) that will engulf you in the realm of purgatory (wherever that is...), whereas Orthodox mean the fire of God's love.
Clearly you know little about our belief in purgatory. Pagan flame? What is that? I would recommend reading Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI's encyclical Spe Salvi, where he talks about the cleansing fire of purgatory being Christ Himself.

That's relatively recent, though, and comes from the post-Vatican II era when scholasticism declined in importance relative to patristics in the Vatican. Ressourcement and all that.

Did the popes in the scholastic and Tridentine eras teach that purgatory was a created place, or that the fire was God (as the Orthodox believe)? Many of the historical Roman Catholic practices relating to indulgences would seem to imply the former.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 11:46:22 PM by Minnesotan »
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #30 on: May 06, 2015, 11:50:07 PM »
Because purgatorial fire is a heresy...  ::)

God is our consuming fire. (Hebrews 12:29), not magic or created graces of any strange pagan origin. Orthodox obviously don't object to the concept of purgation or even of fire, it's what is meant by those words which Orthodox object to. Latins mean some sort of pagan flame (think Dante,) that will engulf you in the realm of purgatory (wherever that is...), whereas Orthodox mean the fire of God's love.
Clearly you know little about our belief in purgatory. Pagan flame? What is that? I would recommend reading Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI's encyclical Spe Salvi, where he talks about the cleansing fire of purgatory being Christ Himself.

I recommend reading Thomas Aquinas, where he says Purgatorial fire is equal in torment to the flames of hell.
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2015, 12:08:52 AM »
Because purgatorial fire is a heresy...  ::)

God is our consuming fire. (Hebrews 12:29), not magic or created graces of any strange pagan origin. Orthodox obviously don't object to the concept of purgation or even of fire, it's what is meant by those words which Orthodox object to. Latins mean some sort of pagan flame (think Dante,) that will engulf you in the realm of purgatory (wherever that is...), whereas Orthodox mean the fire of God's love.
Clearly you know little about our belief in purgatory. Pagan flame? What is that? I would recommend reading Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI's encyclical Spe Salvi, where he talks about the cleansing fire of purgatory being Christ Himself.

I recommend reading Thomas Aquinas, where he says Purgatorial fire is equal in torment to the flames of hell.

Many Orthodox would say that too (just with the added stipulation that the "fire" is uncreated, i.e., God's energies, and is not intended to torment but is perceived that way).

The distinction between purgatory and hell is not always clear-cut, certainly not among the church fathers. It depends on whether the door is locked from the inside or outside. If it's the former (as many Orthodox believe), than they're really the same state, the only difference being whether the person eventually wills themselves out or not (or is in the process of doing so). The difference is interior rather than exterior.

And I'm not sure Dante intended his depictions to be taken literally, even if some of his readers might have intended it. Rod Dreher read Dante recently and said that it seemed very close to Orthodoxy to him. Perhaps he (as a former Catholic, now Orthodox, who converted not primarily because of doctrinal issues but because he'd lost his faith in the Catholic church hierarchy over its handling of the sex scandals) might be reading it from a biased standpoint. Perhaps you might be, too. I'm not sure.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 12:10:04 AM by Minnesotan »
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2015, 12:10:56 AM »
Because purgatorial fire is a heresy...  ::)

God is our consuming fire. (Hebrews 12:29), not magic or created graces of any strange pagan origin. Orthodox obviously don't object to the concept of purgation or even of fire, it's what is meant by those words which Orthodox object to. Latins mean some sort of pagan flame (think Dante,) that will engulf you in the realm of purgatory (wherever that is...), whereas Orthodox mean the fire of God's love.
Clearly you know little about our belief in purgatory. Pagan flame? What is that? I would recommend reading Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI's encyclical Spe Salvi, where he talks about the cleansing fire of purgatory being Christ Himself.

I recommend reading Thomas Aquinas, where he says Purgatorial fire is equal in torment to the flames of hell.

Many Orthodox would say that too (just with the added stipulation that the "fire" is uncreated, i.e., God's energies, and is not intended to torment but is perceived that way).

The distinction between purgatory and hell is not always clear-cut, certainly not among the church fathers. It depends on whether the door is locked from the inside or outside. If it's the former (as many Orthodox believe), than they're really the same state, the only difference being whether the person eventually wills themselves out or not (or is in the process of doing so). The difference is interior rather than exterior.

And I'm not sure Dante intended his depictions to be taken literally, even if some of his readers might have intended it. Rod Dreher read Dante recently and said that it seemed very close to Orthodoxy to him. Perhaps he (as a former Catholic, now Orthodox, who converted not because of doctrinal issues but because he'd lost his faith in the Catholic church hierarchy over its handling of the sex scandals) might be reading it from a biased standpoint. Perhaps you might be, too. I'm not sure.

I am very much reading from a biased standpoint. It's not hard to see how Latin scholars in the medieval world interpreted purgatory in the most vile manner imaginable. It's comparable to the Islamic version of hell in how gruesome it is.

The difference lies in the fact that all manner of people will experience the torment of purgatory, whereas only the unrighteous will experience hell. So when Thomas Aquinas mentions that they are equal in torment and punishment, it's clear that this god of theirs which tortures people who are even being divinized or who are being made righteous in Christ with a punishment equal to the punishment of hell, is much closer to the god of Islam in this case.

Not even the god of Islam tortures the righteous, few they be.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 12:16:11 AM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2015, 12:18:03 AM »
Because purgatorial fire is a heresy...  ::)

God is our consuming fire. (Hebrews 12:29), not magic or created graces of any strange pagan origin. Orthodox obviously don't object to the concept of purgation or even of fire, it's what is meant by those words which Orthodox object to. Latins mean some sort of pagan flame (think Dante,) that will engulf you in the realm of purgatory (wherever that is...), whereas Orthodox mean the fire of God's love.
Clearly you know little about our belief in purgatory. Pagan flame? What is that? I would recommend reading Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI's encyclical Spe Salvi, where he talks about the cleansing fire of purgatory being Christ Himself.

I recommend reading Thomas Aquinas, where he says Purgatorial fire is equal in torment to the flames of hell.

Many Orthodox would say that too (just with the added stipulation that the "fire" is uncreated, i.e., God's energies, and is not intended to torment but is perceived that way).

The distinction between purgatory and hell is not always clear-cut, certainly not among the church fathers. It depends on whether the door is locked from the inside or outside. If it's the former (as many Orthodox believe), than they're really the same state, the only difference being whether the person eventually wills themselves out or not (or is in the process of doing so). The difference is interior rather than exterior.

And I'm not sure Dante intended his depictions to be taken literally, even if some of his readers might have intended it. Rod Dreher read Dante recently and said that it seemed very close to Orthodoxy to him. Perhaps he (as a former Catholic, now Orthodox, who converted not because of doctrinal issues but because he'd lost his faith in the Catholic church hierarchy over its handling of the sex scandals) might be reading it from a biased standpoint. Perhaps you might be, too. I'm not sure.

I am very much reading from a biased standpoint. It's not hard to see how Latin scholars in the medieval world interpreted purgatory in the most vile manner imaginable. It's comparable to the Islamic version of hell in how gruesome it is.

It's a well known fact that as a result of the Crusades (and the Reconquista) the Western world became exposed to Islamic ideas more. So if they are similar, I doubt that's a coincidence.

Many of the Buddhist hells ("Narakas") are similarly grotesque. The longest-lasting one, Avici, lasts 3.39738624×10^18 years. At least you don't have to listen to Avicii for that whole time.
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #34 on: May 07, 2015, 12:20:04 AM »
Because purgatorial fire is a heresy...  ::)

God is our consuming fire. (Hebrews 12:29), not magic or created graces of any strange pagan origin. Orthodox obviously don't object to the concept of purgation or even of fire, it's what is meant by those words which Orthodox object to. Latins mean some sort of pagan flame (think Dante,) that will engulf you in the realm of purgatory (wherever that is...), whereas Orthodox mean the fire of God's love.
Clearly you know little about our belief in purgatory. Pagan flame? What is that? I would recommend reading Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI's encyclical Spe Salvi, where he talks about the cleansing fire of purgatory being Christ Himself.

I recommend reading Thomas Aquinas, where he says Purgatorial fire is equal in torment to the flames of hell.

Many Orthodox would say that too (just with the added stipulation that the "fire" is uncreated, i.e., God's energies, and is not intended to torment but is perceived that way).

The distinction between purgatory and hell is not always clear-cut, certainly not among the church fathers. It depends on whether the door is locked from the inside or outside. If it's the former (as many Orthodox believe), than they're really the same state, the only difference being whether the person eventually wills themselves out or not (or is in the process of doing so). The difference is interior rather than exterior.

And I'm not sure Dante intended his depictions to be taken literally, even if some of his readers might have intended it. Rod Dreher read Dante recently and said that it seemed very close to Orthodoxy to him. Perhaps he (as a former Catholic, now Orthodox, who converted not because of doctrinal issues but because he'd lost his faith in the Catholic church hierarchy over its handling of the sex scandals) might be reading it from a biased standpoint. Perhaps you might be, too. I'm not sure.

I am very much reading from a biased standpoint. It's not hard to see how Latin scholars in the medieval world interpreted purgatory in the most vile manner imaginable. It's comparable to the Islamic version of hell in how gruesome it is.

The difference lies in the fact that all manner of people will experience the torment of purgatory, whereas only the unrighteous will experience hell. So when Thomas Aquinas mentions that they are equal in torment and punishment, it's clear that this god of theirs which tortures people who are even being divinized or who are being made righteous in Christ with a punishment equal to the punishment of hell, is much closer to the god of Islam in this case.

Not even the god of Islam tortures the righteous, few they be.

What do you mean by righteous? If you mean completely without sin, then they wouldn't need to experience purgatory either, would they?

I tend to blanch whenever people start dividing humanity into a two-story scheme like that. It seems too similar to Calvinism.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #35 on: May 07, 2015, 12:25:36 AM »
Because purgatorial fire is a heresy...  ::)

God is our consuming fire. (Hebrews 12:29), not magic or created graces of any strange pagan origin. Orthodox obviously don't object to the concept of purgation or even of fire, it's what is meant by those words which Orthodox object to. Latins mean some sort of pagan flame (think Dante,) that will engulf you in the realm of purgatory (wherever that is...), whereas Orthodox mean the fire of God's love.
Clearly you know little about our belief in purgatory. Pagan flame? What is that? I would recommend reading Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI's encyclical Spe Salvi, where he talks about the cleansing fire of purgatory being Christ Himself.

I recommend reading Thomas Aquinas, where he says Purgatorial fire is equal in torment to the flames of hell.

Many Orthodox would say that too (just with the added stipulation that the "fire" is uncreated, i.e., God's energies, and is not intended to torment but is perceived that way).

The distinction between purgatory and hell is not always clear-cut, certainly not among the church fathers. It depends on whether the door is locked from the inside or outside. If it's the former (as many Orthodox believe), than they're really the same state, the only difference being whether the person eventually wills themselves out or not (or is in the process of doing so). The difference is interior rather than exterior.

And I'm not sure Dante intended his depictions to be taken literally, even if some of his readers might have intended it. Rod Dreher read Dante recently and said that it seemed very close to Orthodoxy to him. Perhaps he (as a former Catholic, now Orthodox, who converted not because of doctrinal issues but because he'd lost his faith in the Catholic church hierarchy over its handling of the sex scandals) might be reading it from a biased standpoint. Perhaps you might be, too. I'm not sure.

I am very much reading from a biased standpoint. It's not hard to see how Latin scholars in the medieval world interpreted purgatory in the most vile manner imaginable. It's comparable to the Islamic version of hell in how gruesome it is.

The difference lies in the fact that all manner of people will experience the torment of purgatory, whereas only the unrighteous will experience hell. So when Thomas Aquinas mentions that they are equal in torment and punishment, it's clear that this god of theirs which tortures people who are even being divinized or who are being made righteous in Christ with a punishment equal to the punishment of hell, is much closer to the god of Islam in this case.

Not even the god of Islam tortures the righteous, few they be.

What do you mean by righteous? If you mean completely without sin, then they wouldn't need to experience purgatory either, would they?

I tend to blanch whenever people start dividing humanity into a two-story scheme like that. It seems too similar to Calvinism.

The difference is, the Orthodox Church hasn't defined how purgatory works, that's why they (Latins) have these moral problems to deal with because the Latin Church has (or at least, has attempted to) define purgatory. Obviously, nobody is without sin, but the Orthodox don't claim that through the process of purgation that those who are in sin will be punished with a punishment in equal intensity to hellfire.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 12:26:57 AM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #36 on: May 07, 2015, 12:50:03 AM »
Christ is risen!


There's no way in Hell that I want that thing staring at me in the middle of the night when the lights are out
We used to have an open heart Jesus in the back porch from Lord knows where (it was a Protestant household, even when my daughter of the Vatican grandmother lived there) which creeped the crap out of me.
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Offline Wyatt

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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #37 on: May 07, 2015, 05:34:30 AM »
Because purgatorial fire is a heresy...  ::)

God is our consuming fire. (Hebrews 12:29), not magic or created graces of any strange pagan origin. Orthodox obviously don't object to the concept of purgation or even of fire, it's what is meant by those words which Orthodox object to. Latins mean some sort of pagan flame (think Dante,) that will engulf you in the realm of purgatory (wherever that is...), whereas Orthodox mean the fire of God's love.
Clearly you know little about our belief in purgatory. Pagan flame? What is that? I would recommend reading Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI's encyclical Spe Salvi, where he talks about the cleansing fire of purgatory being Christ Himself.

I recommend reading Thomas Aquinas, where he says Purgatorial fire is equal in torment to the flames of hell.

Many Orthodox would say that too (just with the added stipulation that the "fire" is uncreated, i.e., God's energies, and is not intended to torment but is perceived that way).

The distinction between purgatory and hell is not always clear-cut, certainly not among the church fathers. It depends on whether the door is locked from the inside or outside. If it's the former (as many Orthodox believe), than they're really the same state, the only difference being whether the person eventually wills themselves out or not (or is in the process of doing so). The difference is interior rather than exterior.

And I'm not sure Dante intended his depictions to be taken literally, even if some of his readers might have intended it. Rod Dreher read Dante recently and said that it seemed very close to Orthodoxy to him. Perhaps he (as a former Catholic, now Orthodox, who converted not because of doctrinal issues but because he'd lost his faith in the Catholic church hierarchy over its handling of the sex scandals) might be reading it from a biased standpoint. Perhaps you might be, too. I'm not sure.

I am very much reading from a biased standpoint. It's not hard to see how Latin scholars in the medieval world interpreted purgatory in the most vile manner imaginable. It's comparable to the Islamic version of hell in how gruesome it is.

The difference lies in the fact that all manner of people will experience the torment of purgatory, whereas only the unrighteous will experience hell. So when Thomas Aquinas mentions that they are equal in torment and punishment, it's clear that this god of theirs which tortures people who are even being divinized or who are being made righteous in Christ with a punishment equal to the punishment of hell, is much closer to the god of Islam in this case.

Not even the god of Islam tortures the righteous, few they be.

What do you mean by righteous? If you mean completely without sin, then they wouldn't need to experience purgatory either, would they?

I tend to blanch whenever people start dividing humanity into a two-story scheme like that. It seems too similar to Calvinism.

The difference is, the Orthodox Church hasn't defined how purgatory works, that's why they (Latins) have these moral problems to deal with because the Latin Church has (or at least, has attempted to) define purgatory. Obviously, nobody is without sin, but the Orthodox don't claim that through the process of purgation that those who are in sin will be punished with a punishment in equal intensity to hellfire.
Nothing dogmatic regarding the specifics of purgatory has been defined. That is why you have medieval theologians portraying it one way, and now it is being thought of and spoken about differently. Personally I believe Benedict XVI's explanation in Spe Salvi is far closer to the truth, but as the details have not been dogmatically defined, there is a freedom within the Catholic Church of what can be believed about purgatory. The only thing definitive from the Church on purgatory is that purgatory exists.

Offline militantsparrow

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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #38 on: May 08, 2015, 12:24:29 PM »
Nothing dogmatic regarding the specifics of purgatory has been defined. That is why you have medieval theologians portraying it one way, and now it is being thought of and spoken about differently. Personally I believe Benedict XVI's explanation in Spe Salvi is far closer to the truth, but as the details have not been dogmatically defined, there is a freedom within the Catholic Church of what can be believed about purgatory. The only thing definitive from the Church on purgatory is that purgatory exists.

Well stated, Wyatt. As a former Roman Catholic and relatively new and uneducated Orthodox, I would say there is room in Orthodoxy for a "purging." Where it gets tricky is when we start talking about indulgences, etc.
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #39 on: May 08, 2015, 01:39:58 PM »
Quote
I would say there is room in Orthodoxy for a "purging"
Yes. Its called living the ascetic life.

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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #40 on: May 08, 2015, 01:48:20 PM »
The Orthodox Synod of Jerusalem, 1672:

Quote
We believe that the souls of those that have fallen asleep are either at rest or in torment, according to what each has done; — for when they are separated from their bodies, they depart immediately either to joy, or to sorrow and lamentation; though confessedly neither their enjoyment nor condemnation are complete. For after the common resurrection, when the soul shall be united with the body, with which it had behaved itself well or ill, each shall receive the completion of either enjoyment or of condemnation.

And the souls of those involved in mortal sins, who have not departed in despair but while still living in the body, though without bringing forth any fruits of repentance, have repented — by pouring forth tears, by kneeling while watching in prayers, by afflicting themselves, by relieving the poor, and finally by showing forth by their works their love towards God and their neighbor, and which the Catholic Church has from the beginning rightly called satisfaction — [their souls] depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most; which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. Of course, it is understood that we do not know the time of their release. We know and believe that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment, but when we know not.
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #41 on: May 08, 2015, 01:52:31 PM »
The Orthodox Synod of Jerusalem, 1672:

Quote
We believe that the souls of those that have fallen asleep are either at rest or in torment, according to what each has done; — for when they are separated from their bodies, they depart immediately either to joy, or to sorrow and lamentation; though confessedly neither their enjoyment nor condemnation are complete. For after the common resurrection, when the soul shall be united with the body, with which it had behaved itself well or ill, each shall receive the completion of either enjoyment or of condemnation.

And the souls of those involved in mortal sins, who have not departed in despair but while still living in the body, though without bringing forth any fruits of repentance, have repented — by pouring forth tears, by kneeling while watching in prayers, by afflicting themselves, by relieving the poor, and finally by showing forth by their works their love towards God and their neighbor, and which the Catholic Church has from the beginning rightly called satisfaction — [their souls] depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most; which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. Of course, it is understood that we do not know the time of their release. We know and believe that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment, but when we know not.
If its so lock solid, why is it not an official teaching?

PP
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"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #42 on: May 08, 2015, 02:00:52 PM »
The Orthodox Synod of Jerusalem, 1672:

Quote
We believe that the souls of those that have fallen asleep are either at rest or in torment, according to what each has done; — for when they are separated from their bodies, they depart immediately either to joy, or to sorrow and lamentation; though confessedly neither their enjoyment nor condemnation are complete. For after the common resurrection, when the soul shall be united with the body, with which it had behaved itself well or ill, each shall receive the completion of either enjoyment or of condemnation.

And the souls of those involved in mortal sins, who have not departed in despair but while still living in the body, though without bringing forth any fruits of repentance, have repented — by pouring forth tears, by kneeling while watching in prayers, by afflicting themselves, by relieving the poor, and finally by showing forth by their works their love towards God and their neighbor, and which the Catholic Church has from the beginning rightly called satisfaction — [their souls] depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most; which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. Of course, it is understood that we do not know the time of their release. We know and believe that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment, but when we know not.
If its so lock solid, why is it not an official teaching?

PP

I never said it was "lock solid" (whatever that means), I'm just providing some historical food for thought. I personally don't see anything wrong with the above passage, as it seems to be consistent with the hagiography and prayers of the church.
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #43 on: May 08, 2015, 02:42:15 PM »
The Orthodox Synod of Jerusalem, 1672:

Quote
We believe that the souls of those that have fallen asleep are either at rest or in torment, according to what each has done; — for when they are separated from their bodies, they depart immediately either to joy, or to sorrow and lamentation; though confessedly neither their enjoyment nor condemnation are complete. For after the common resurrection, when the soul shall be united with the body, with which it had behaved itself well or ill, each shall receive the completion of either enjoyment or of condemnation.

And the souls of those involved in mortal sins, who have not departed in despair but while still living in the body, though without bringing forth any fruits of repentance, have repented — by pouring forth tears, by kneeling while watching in prayers, by afflicting themselves, by relieving the poor, and finally by showing forth by their works their love towards God and their neighbor, and which the Catholic Church has from the beginning rightly called satisfaction — [their souls] depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most; which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. Of course, it is understood that we do not know the time of their release. We know and believe that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment, but when we know not.
If its so lock solid, why is it not an official teaching?

PP

I never said it was "lock solid" (whatever that means), I'm just providing some historical food for thought. I personally don't see anything wrong with the above passage, as it seems to be consistent with the hagiography and prayers of the church.
Sorry. I didnt mean to put words into your mouth...or...umm....letters to type....on your fingers....umm....whatever. You know what I mean.

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline JoeS2

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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #44 on: June 08, 2015, 11:47:29 PM »
Christ is risen!


There's no way in Hell that I want that thing staring at me in the middle of the night when the lights are out
We used to have an open heart Jesus in the back porch from Lord knows where (it was a Protestant household, even when my daughter of the Vatican grandmother lived there) which creeped the crap out of me.

While we are on this subject, how about a bout the dress up doll of Infant of Prague....

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Re: Pope St. Gregory the Great on Purgatory.
« Reply #45 on: June 09, 2015, 12:05:09 AM »



I'll raise ya this, from the Euro 2012 soccer tournament held in Poland and Ukraine:

« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 12:05:58 AM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?