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Author Topic: To the Orthodox Apologists  (Read 45136 times) Average Rating: 0
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Linus7
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« Reply #90 on: February 18, 2003, 10:43:42 PM »

Mor Ephrem -

Thanks for your kind words of understanding and especially for your prayers.

Amator Dei -

Thanks for making it possible for me to use the icon of St. Ignatius of Antioch!

Awesome!
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« Reply #91 on: February 18, 2003, 10:56:53 PM »

I'll say it again, Linus. Smiley  

I owe my current understanding to your arguments and well-written posts.  I appreciate deeply the sacrifice of time that you're making.  Tell your wife that I appreciate her being patient with you while you post. Smiley  

It does some good in the world.  You will be in my prayers.
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« Reply #92 on: February 19, 2003, 09:39:23 AM »

Thanks, Sapiens.

I really appreciate it.

I don't think I had much to do with your conversion, however.

God would have got you, one way or the other!  Wink

Oh - I noticed your name change over at CBBS. Great!

May God continue to bless you and all your family, too.
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« Reply #93 on: February 19, 2003, 10:08:18 AM »

Linus7,

I too have had bits of depression from posting over there.  Fighting the hate and deception that comes from the one who wants us to fail can wear one out.  My prayers are with you, may our Lord give us all the strength and perseverence to continue to bring the fullness of Orthodoxy to our friends over there.

On a side note, my home PC is dead, so I will be limited for awhile to posting from work when able.
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« Reply #94 on: February 19, 2003, 01:41:52 PM »

Oblio -

Troubles with your home PC may be a blessing in disguise. Sometimes we need a break from all the name-calling that passes for "Christianity" over at CBBS.

I find it hard to believe that someone could refer to other Christians as members of apostate churches "full of unsaved heretics" and not receive some sort of caution from the moderators.

The standards over there are pretty low.

Actually, what I think there is over there is a double standard: one for the Fundies and a different one for the rest of us.

If we tried some of the stuff they pull, we would probably be quickly and permanently banished from CBBS.
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« Reply #95 on: February 19, 2003, 02:15:16 PM »

The thing that literaly made my day was berean calling for me to delete the picture of early Jewish icons in the temple.  It was a precious moment Smiley
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« Reply #96 on: February 19, 2003, 03:41:51 PM »

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From Oblio: The thing that literaly made my day was berean calling for me to delete the picture of early Jewish icons in the temple.  It was a precious moment

Wait a minute!

I didn't see that! Where is it?

And I did not know about the early Jewish icons! Wow!

That must have blown his mind!  Grin

Why did he ask you to delete them?
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« Reply #97 on: February 19, 2003, 04:06:24 PM »

He asked me to delete them because they were too big    Roll Eyes

Over here is the thread
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« Reply #98 on: February 19, 2003, 04:52:43 PM »

Oblio -

Great post and a beautiful picture.

That must have really rocked Berean's world. Of course, guys like that soon have an excuse for everything.

I noticed Abdur jumped on it right away.

I understand he used to post here.

Why is he so angry at Orthodoxy?

What's his problem?

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« Reply #99 on: February 19, 2003, 04:59:53 PM »

In that thread, perhaps you should add that it was an apostle that made the first icon of the Theotokos holding Christ?
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« Reply #100 on: February 19, 2003, 05:15:22 PM »

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I don't think I had much to do with your conversion, however.

God would have got you, one way or the other!  

You probably saved him a lot of work. Smiley

Quote
Oh - I noticed your name change over at CBBS. Great

It was inspired by Monkey's change of name.  Though I don't post much on the forums currently (I have a lot of new things to start considering before I begin expressing my beliefs again) I thought I'd go for a show of solidarity.
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« Reply #101 on: February 19, 2003, 08:12:04 PM »

Nicholas -

Good point.

They would just deny it, however, since it's not mentioned in the Bible. Even if it was, they would say it was figurative, the way they do with the Eucharist or anything else inconvenient.

Or else they would excise it, like they do the Deuterocanonical Books.

Sapiens -

I look forward to the day when you join us in posting for the Orthodox faith.
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« Reply #102 on: February 19, 2003, 09:39:25 PM »

I noticed Abdur jumped on it right away.

I understand he used to post here.

Why is he so angry at Orthodoxy?

What's his problem?

He last was an old calendrist sympathizer (whether he extended his allegiance to old calendrists is something I don't know).

The sectarian bickering must have hit a nerve all of a sudden, if you ask me.

In IC XC
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« Reply #103 on: February 19, 2003, 10:45:55 PM »

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From SamB: He last was an old calendrist sympathizer (whether he extended his allegiance to old calendrists is something I don't know).

The sectarian bickering must have hit a nerve all of a sudden, if you ask me.

Could be, but what a solution!

To reject sectarian bickering by leaping into a movement composed of over 33,000 bickering sects - Protestantism?  Shocked

To go from Old Calendarist Fundamentalism to Protestant Fundamentalism?  Shocked

I will refrain from saying anything more about Abdur except that he needs our prayers.
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« Reply #104 on: February 19, 2003, 11:03:05 PM »

Nicholas -

Good point.

They would just deny it, however, since it's not mentioned in the Bible. Even if it was, they would say it was figurative, the way they do with the Eucharist or anything else inconvenient.

Or else they would excise it, like they do the Deuterocanonical Books.

True, but it could pique the interest of a lurker, so its always good to mention. Cheesy
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« Reply #105 on: February 20, 2003, 01:08:07 AM »

While I admire the fortitude and patience of those fighting the good fight on the fundie-forum, I cannot help thinking that this might just be a case of casting pearls before swine.  Madness reigns there, and the devil is getting a good chuckle.  Prayers, and a good example (which is hard to demonstrate on the 'net) are probably the only real weapons one can use to convert people like "berean", if anything at all (since we are, of course, quite free to "go to hell", if that's what we so desire, whether explicitly or implicitly.)

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« Reply #106 on: February 20, 2003, 04:13:16 AM »

100% with you on this Seraphim. Some of these people are so deeply entrenched that no amount of clearly stated arguments will convince them otherwise and even if we do cause them to think, all it takes is another clever arguement from the other viewpoint and they reject what they started to accept. The only way they can truly change is through the grace and prompting of the Holy Spirit. Only He can open their minds to understanding and chip away at the stone wall built around their hearts.
I remember these words; "It is better to talk to God about men than to talk to men about God."

However, as Linus pointed out earlier on, we are not focussing primarily on people such as "berean" but on the lurkers who follow the threads without posting. People like "berean" are a catalyst for raising the issues which many people have about our faith so that we can then respond with the truth regarding those issues. "berean" will never accept our responses in his current state but there may be many more who are able to accept them. I also praise God for "berean" because his hatred towards Orthodoxy and his hypocracy provide such a strong contrast. After all, a pure light is clearly discernable in darkness whereas it might not be noticed when surrounded by dim lamps. Those who are seeking the true path are also not likely to be attracted to the rants of an angry man.

God turns evil to good, so even when Satan thinks he is winning, he is losing.

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« Reply #107 on: February 20, 2003, 09:16:55 AM »

I agree with Seraphim, too, but Prodromos is right on the money.

Berean, Guitarpicker, et al are not likely to suddenly post "Damascus Road" conversions to Orthodoxy at CBBS (but, who knows? Wink). They are far too partisan and too full of pride. Their chief concerns are winning arguments and looking good for the other Fundies.

No, it is the others who visit CBBS, those persons who are not concerned with sectarian loyalties, whom we must win for Christ and His Church.

I really like what Prodromos said about the contrast between darkness and light.

Berean, Guitarpicker, and blurbsky are their own worst enemies. They are easily frustrated. It is then that their lack of self-restraint shows itself and they begin name-calling. Once they have done that, it is all too apparent to anyone reading their posts that the Spirit of Christ is far from them.

That provides a contrast that is perhaps a greater testimony to the truth of Orthodox Christianity than anything we can say.

And that is why WE must avoid being guilty of such things at all costs. Better not to post at all than to needlessly and heedlessly give offense.

It is okay to say, "Sola Scriptura is unbiblical and unChristian."

It is quite another to write something like, "The xyz sect is apostate and its churches full of unsaved heretics."

One thing I try to do is to avoid use of the word you unless I am praising the person. I do not always succeed, but I try.

Avoiding the word you allows your opponent some dignity and breathing space when you are otherwise shredding his assumptions.

I like to substitute the word one for you wherever possible, like this:

Even one who believes in Sola Scriptura must admit an authority outside of the Bible in order to know what books belong in the Bible.

That is less confrontational than, "You must accept an authority outside of the Bible . . ."

The second sentence can cause a person to become defensive because it sounds like a command, and no one likes to be told what he must do.

It is possible to avoid the word you and still present a forceful argument.

"Those who argue for the doctrine of Sola Fide must ignore what St. James wrote in James 2:24 . . ."

I think we can all see that the sentence above is much better than, "You are ignoring James 2:24."

It's a little extra work, but avoiding you makes for a far less offensive, and more Christian, argument in the end.

Of course, I would NEVER want to avoid any of you!  Wink

You are my brothers and sisters, after all!
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« Reply #108 on: February 20, 2003, 03:21:23 PM »

Hello. All,

I just wanted to thank everyone who has come over to CBBS to defend Orthodoxy.

I was raised Lutheran and had been Anglican for the last couple years. Over the last few months, partailly due to Linus's posts, I have investigated Orthodoxy. Last Sunday, I became a catechumen.

Thanks be to God for leading me home to His Church.
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« Reply #109 on: February 20, 2003, 04:35:14 PM »

Quote
I was raised Lutheran and had been Anglican for the last couple years. Over the last few months, partailly due to Linus's posts, I have investigated Orthodoxy. Last Sunday, I became a catechumen.

Thanks be to God for leading me home to His Church.

Praise God !

May God go with you on your journey to Holy Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #110 on: February 20, 2003, 04:52:13 PM »

Monkey -

Thanks for posting your testimony here, brother!

Everyone -

I'm sure you've all seen Monkey's posts over at CBBS. He has been a stalwart defender of the Apostolic Faith for quite some time. In fact, for a long time he and I were the only Orthodox Catholics over there (or at least the only ones who posted regularly).

Thank God for him! He has been a real blessing to me and rescued me many times when I was completely surrounded.

I'm sure glad he is with us and visiting this site, too.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
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« Reply #111 on: February 21, 2003, 10:07:28 AM »

Something I think we should be aware of with regards to posting photographs on the forum. If we want to post images then we should host the images on our own web space and not link directly to the image on another web server unless we obtain permission from the people hosting the image to do so. If we link directly to the photos then we increase their bandwidth usage without them receiving a subsequent increase in page hits. Thus, they incur the cost of the bandwidth usage while receiving no benefit in return.
This is nothing short of theft as far as most people are concerned and I have seen it become a big issue on a number of forums.

I'm sending a PM about this to berean as I speak. I've noticed he has already had the red X appear in his latest posts which means either the administrator of the hosting site has had enough, or the company hosting their site has penalised them for exceeding their bandwidth limits.

Your brother, John.
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« Reply #112 on: February 21, 2003, 11:04:30 AM »

Thanks, John for the reminder.

Some Jack@#@ ran up my bandwidth by linking to several files I had for private usage. I was infuriated.

If you want a place to put images, let me know and I will set you up with some space.

Bobby
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« Reply #113 on: February 21, 2003, 11:17:46 AM »

I need to look at the 3rd c. temple icons that I linked from philthompson.net and see if we can grab them and host them.  berean was furious that they were posted !

Added:  They are over here on his site

If someone can grab them and send me or post the link, I'll edit my post on CBBS, or ask the admin to edit it if it is to late to edit.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2003, 11:27:31 AM by Oblio » Logged
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« Reply #114 on: February 21, 2003, 11:52:47 AM »

GOOD JOB! those icons are SUPER!! We will grab them and use them on the Greek Orthodox Apologetic Page we have. They are truly magnificent!

I see you have been organizing! My congratulations to everyone, i've been monitoring the posts , and I find them excelent

I would like to recomend a book for Orthodox Apologetic ethics: The Ascetic Of Love, by nun Gavrilia. It's a true perl. If you read it you will understand .

count me in for St. Justin Apologetic Society!

Glory to Christ and the Theotokos!

.  Smiley
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« Reply #115 on: February 21, 2003, 12:58:04 PM »

Guys,  here are the two images from that site stored on my server.  I have unmetered bandwidth with my webhost, so feel free to use it as much as you want.

First image: http://www.taoofdave.com/clipart/misc/synagoguewall.jpg

Second image: http://www.taoofdave.com/clipart/misc/synagogueicon.jpg

t0m_dR

What is the URL of your apologetics page? I didn't see your first two posts, so let me give you a belated welcome to the site! Smiley
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« Reply #116 on: February 21, 2003, 01:15:14 PM »

What is the St. Justin Martyr Society?
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« Reply #117 on: February 21, 2003, 01:25:17 PM »

Quote
Guys,  here are the two images from that site stored on my server.  I have unmetered bandwidth with my webhost, so feel free to use it as much as you want.

Thanks, I've edited my posts to use your server.
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« Reply #118 on: February 21, 2003, 03:27:31 PM »

Quote
I'm sending a PM about this to berean as I speak. I've noticed he has already had the red X appear in his latest posts which means either the administrator of the hosting site has had enough, or the company hosting their site has penalised them for exceeding their bandwidth limits.

He is still at it, some of his oft used photos are on his site.

Here is  bereans home


Over on CBBS Bible study is a very interesting thread on Modern day Pharisees

Perhaps we should see how it develops on it's own and pray more than usual for guidance and wisdom.  We need to be sure that our friends see the light shining from within us and that we do not become as whitewashed sepulchers.
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« Reply #119 on: February 21, 2003, 04:23:42 PM »

What is the St. Justin Martyr Society?

It seems to be a developing group of online Orthodox apologists.  Perhaps Linus or Oblio will care to formalize the society?   Many of us are also working on a project currently titled "Orthodox Answers" that will be a website that has many ariticles and FAQs for inquirers.  If you want more info, see the "Orthodox Answers Plz Read" thread on Board News.
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« Reply #120 on: February 21, 2003, 05:18:34 PM »

I was under the impression the St. Joseph Martyr Society WAS Orthodox Answers
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« Reply #121 on: February 21, 2003, 08:30:08 PM »

Oblio -

I did make it to the PC tonight (Friday), after all.

Berean is a busy boy.

I think he must be retired, since he has time to spend on his own web site and on CBBS.

Anyway, I did not spend a lot of time looking at the site; I just ate, and stuff like that is almost as good as ipecac (I hope that's how it's spelled).

The Modern Pharisees thread will eventually get around to naming us and the Roman Catholics, I'm sure. The funny thing is, I believe what Sunlover meant by "modern Pharisees" are Berean and crew.

Sunlover has sent me PMs in the past expressing her sympathies and her revulsion at the name-calling that goes on over at CBBS.

The trouble is, her opening post is not clear enough and was followed up by someone who thinks all tradition and ritual are Pharisaical.

I will stay away from it until it turns into an anti-Orthodox forum. When that happens, I will jump in with both feet!

Funny thing: does Berean realize that the 1611 edition of the KJV came complete with the Deuterocanonical Books?

He is almost as big on the 1611 edition as some people are on the 1911 Colt Government Model .45, and he uses it for a similar purpose.
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« Reply #122 on: February 22, 2003, 07:04:57 AM »

Guys,  here are the two images from that site stored on my server.  I have unmetered bandwidth with my webhost, so feel free to use it as much as you want.

First image: http://www.taoofdave.com/clipart/misc/synagoguewall.jpg

Second image: http://www.taoofdave.com/clipart/misc/synagogueicon.jpg

t0m_dR

What is the URL of your apologetics page? I didn't see your first two posts, so let me give you a belated welcome to the site! Smiley
Orthodox Dogmatic Research Team:
http://users.aias.gr/oode

you can email the site administrator at: oode@aias.net
The site is in Gree, so we are looking for translators to other Languages, it also has A LOT of apologetic material against Jahovahs Witness , because the Administrator was a member. Also apologetics against atheist propaganda and against  neo-pagan propaganda(there is a new group of pagans formed in Greece which worship the 12 Gods, in mt Olympus(!!!!) )

If you know anyone that would like to help in translating (in English , Russian, or anything else) there is A LOT of material over there.

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« Reply #123 on: February 22, 2003, 08:50:57 AM »

tOm_dR -

I go to church with a lot of Greek people. I will talk to them about the possibility of translating some of your stuff. A couple of them actually teach New Testament Greek.

My wife is Russian, and there are also many Russians at my church, so Russian language stuff is a possibility, too.

Languages are something my church has in abundance! - Greek, Russian, Arabic, Bulgarian, Serbian, Romanian, Ukrainian, Spanish, and, yes, even English!

I don't want to promise anything, but I will put a plea into a few ears.
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« Reply #124 on: February 22, 2003, 10:50:38 AM »

I go to church with a lot of Greek people. I will talk to them about the possibility of translating some of your stuff. A couple of them actually teach New Testament Greek.

+++++

There is an Orthodox Bible available translated from the original Kione Greek to English by the Greek Orthodox nuns of Holy Apostles Covent in Buena Vista, Colorado.   I think it took them seven or eight years to compile. See-

http://www.buenavistaco.com/GOC/HRDPUB.HTM#Scripture


It contains two Volumes.  Volume One contains the Holy Gospels.  Volume Two contains the book of Acts, Epistles, and Revelation.  

In fact, you can order them along with other books by visiting their website -

www.BuenaVistaCO.com/GOC

Any questions you can email them at apostles@amigo.net

In the mean time if you want their translaton of a certain passage just post the  book, shapter, verse etc. and I will look it up in my copy laying here right beside me.

Orthodoc
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« Reply #125 on: February 22, 2003, 11:10:25 AM »

Orthodoc, isn't that a great Bible? I love the footnotes from the Church Fathers too. The icons throughout are wonderful as well.

While I generally buy directly from the sisters, if you order via these links you can them for $2.00 chaper each, plus you get free shipping, making it much cheaper:

The Orthodox New Testament (Acts, Epistles, and Revelation)
The Orthodox New Testament (The Holy Gospels)
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« Reply #126 on: February 22, 2003, 02:05:58 PM »

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The Modern Pharisees thread will eventually get around to naming us and the Roman Catholics, I'm sure. The funny thing is, I believe what Sunlover meant by "modern Pharisees" are Berean and crew.

I think that is what Sunlover meant also.  Let them twist it, and reveal their real heart.  I too will stay out until we are attacked.  I've noticed quite a few observers note the methods of berean and crew.

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Orthodoc, isn't that a great Bible? I love the footnotes from the Church Fathers too. The icons throughout are wonderful as well.

I don't want to speak for Orthodoc, but I have both volumes and love them.

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« Reply #127 on: February 22, 2003, 03:38:25 PM »

[I don't want to speak for Orthodoc, but I have both volumes and love them.]

Me too!!!

Orthodoc

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« Reply #128 on: February 22, 2003, 05:43:23 PM »

I was under the impression the St. Joseph Martyr Society WAS Orthodox Answers

Umm, is not that St. Justin Martyr Society???
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« Reply #129 on: February 24, 2003, 01:55:53 PM »

I have The Orthodox Study Bible, which I like, but I keep wondering when they will publish the whole Bible, not just the New Testament and Psalms.

Has anyone got one of those Third Millenium Bibles?

Have any of you been following the thread over at CBBS having to do with faith versus works? I think it is called something like, If Works Cannot Earn Salvation, How Can Our Works Lose Us Salvation (or something close).

I posted a couple of responses.

Since then I have been told that I don't know what the gospel is and that I have probably not been "sealed" with the Holy Spirit!  Wink

I was asked for my "testimony of salvation," too.

Here it is, in case you are interested:

I was saved in about 33 A.D. on a hill called Golgotha, just outside of Jerusalem.

Of course, that "testimony" is not original to me, but I like it a lot, so I used it.

When the Fundies run out of arguments, they always reach for the pious platitudes and start questioning whether or not their opponents are really Christians.
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« Reply #130 on: February 24, 2003, 02:34:03 PM »

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I have The Orthodox Study Bible, which I like, but I keep wondering when they will publish the whole Bible, not just the New Testament and Psalms

Have you checked LXX.org ?

Added: Here is the latest from the site ...
Q: When will the complete OSB be available for purchase?

A: Sometime around the first of July, 2005.

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I was saved in about 33 A.D. on a hill called Golgotha, just outside of Jerusalem.

And in a few weeks we could add the Paschal exhortations Smiley

I am afraid that that too would fall on deaf ears.  I tried to explain (rather poorly IMO), the nescessity of Christ being fully God and man, and of our salvation coming through His defeat of Death by death.  Of course all I got in response was, It ain't in the Bible  Roll Eyes

As long as they insist on personal salvation being a singular event,  with a black-hole like event horizon, from which they cannot fall out of, rather than the process, made possible by Christ, I am afraid dialog with them (on that issue) will be impossible.



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« Reply #131 on: February 24, 2003, 03:22:35 PM »

I was saved in about 33 A.D. on a hill called Golgotha, just outside of Jerusalem.

'cordin' tew thuh Kalvinists, that's WAY TOO LATE -- unless it was before the foundation of the world -- then

yer not of the Elect - goodbye!
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« Reply #132 on: February 24, 2003, 05:09:58 PM »

Oblio -

Not till 2005?

Seems like a long time to wait; but I will buy a copy of the new OSB as soon as it becomes available.

I know what you mean about trying to talk with Fundies about salvation.

The problem is that they have constructed their own "Christianity" by imposing Anabaptist presuppositions on the reading of the Bible.

What they have come up with is really more Gnostic than Christian.

What is difficult for me to accept is how they can ignore all the passages from the Bible that indicate that one must persevere to the end to be saved and that one can fall away and be cut off.

I go to all the trouble of providing them with these passages, even posting some of them in their entirety, but the Fundies simply counter with the verses they think teach eternal security. Obviously, in the light of the other biblical passages, those verses teach nothing of the kind.

I have said this before, but it seems to me that once one begins to get part of Christianity wrong, pretty soon he will have ALL of it wrong. They might even use words that sound Orthodox (like "Trinity"), but they will ultimately be found to have put an heretical spin on them.

Habbakuk -

I don't think the Calvinists even worship the same God we do.

Their "God" is some kind of arbitrary monster who created the vast majority of human beings in order to torment them for eternity.

I think they have simply revived Molech worship.

Can you imagine St. John writing "God is love" about Calvin's gloomy Sovereign?

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« Reply #133 on: February 25, 2003, 09:49:47 AM »

I was under the impression the St. Joseph Martyr Society WAS Orthodox Answers

Umm, is not that St. Justin Martyr Society???

Good catch, Nik!  And to make it perfectly Orthodox, it should be called the "St. Justin the Philosopher Society."  RC's refer to St. Justin as "St. Justin Martyr," but he's the same guy.

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« Reply #134 on: February 25, 2003, 09:51:49 AM »

The forums over at CBBS have been down for the last few hours. I'd just spent half an hour typing up a response to berean only to lose it all when my post went to /dev/null Angry

Linus, I don't want to disparage the OSB as I have not read it myself, but I have heard a lot of unfavorable comments from a number of people especially regarding the study notes which in some places are outright incorrect. When I have some loose change to spare I am going to get the two volumes mentioned by Orthodoc and I'll be lining up outside the publishers in 2005 when the LXX comes out Wink. I just hope they do a better job of the study notes this time around.

John.
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