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Author Topic: To the Orthodox Apologists  (Read 44617 times) Average Rating: 0
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Linus7
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« Reply #315 on: April 04, 2003, 04:53:16 PM »

Amator Dei -

Excellent post.

I'm just (temporarily?) burned out on arguing with the Fundamentalists.

Working on a post for 30 min. to an hour only to have it deleted in a fraction of a second tends to have that effect on one.

I understand there are more open Evangelical forums out there. I may give some of them a try after a short break.

May God bless your efforts over at CBBS, but, if history is any indicator, you will soon be banished.

I am glad you posted the train story.  Cool
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« Reply #316 on: April 04, 2003, 05:20:35 PM »

Well, I'm not settling in for a long career over there if that's what you mean. Smiley

I've always wanted to enter the fray and now that you Oblio, Monkey, dadof10, et al can't comment I will take over until I'm banished(probably later tonight).  I am only posting in the "Is the Greek Orthodox Church the *TRUE* Church" thread anyway.

Thanks for your prayers.
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« Reply #317 on: April 04, 2003, 06:57:49 PM »

Bravo Amator, Bravo, on your Pascha invitation post !
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« Reply #318 on: April 04, 2003, 08:02:04 PM »

I can't believe I'm still on there and haven't had any PMs from moderators.  

http://forums.christianity.com/html/P491036/?page=last#last

I have over 10 posts now!
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« Reply #319 on: April 04, 2003, 08:12:33 PM »

Amator Dei -

I went over there and looked at what you all are doing.

Great work!  Cool

The Fundie responses are right out of the same old can, however.

There was a thread there not too long ago that dealt with the same issue, only it was more generally titled and lacked the modifier "Greek."

I am surprised at how long they have let you go without locking down the thread.

I know a lot of those people over there really hate (I mean that literally) the Orthodox Church and Orthodox Christians, regardless of their professions of love.
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« Reply #320 on: April 04, 2003, 08:33:39 PM »

Watch out, Serge and Hypo-Ortho!

I just graduated to Senior Member!  Grin
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« Reply #321 on: April 04, 2003, 11:56:57 PM »

Watch out, Serge and Hypo-Ortho!

I just graduated to Senior Member!  Grin

Congratulations, Linus!  I look forward to your soon serving on my patriarchal household staff.   Cheesy

Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #322 on: April 05, 2003, 12:16:28 AM »

Can we trade in our CBBS post count, say, at a 150% exchange rate  Cool
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« Reply #323 on: April 05, 2003, 04:47:21 AM »

Well, the "Is the Greek... etc" thread has been locked down, and before I could post on it, also.

I find it appalling that they would be so ignorant as to think there would be a distinction between the Greek Orthodox church and Orthodox Church, at least in terms of True-Church-ness.
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« Reply #324 on: April 05, 2003, 04:27:42 PM »

winter_crow must have got up from his nap and checked the Board of Censorship and locked it down.  I don't know which was worse, him locking it or his_child's backhanded remark about no one violating the TOS by sharing their faith and stating that NiC asks good questions.
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« Reply #325 on: April 05, 2003, 04:34:40 PM »

MY POSTS GOT DELETED!!!! Those b------rds!
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« Reply #326 on: April 05, 2003, 04:50:28 PM »

 Angry

Been there, done that.  
What that usually means is that you made a point that they could not refute with logic, reason, history, or Scripture.  Think of it as a cyber-stripe.

Look what the chief censor said:

I was accused of :

 Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

You have spent countless hours claiming that the orthodox church is the Church, the Body of Christ.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
by NiC, I responded with


I respectfully disagree.

We have been limited by the staff and managment to a few threads that discuss issues pertaining to the Apostolic Christian faith. To be sure, there have been discussions of the nature of The Church, but there have been many, many others. Recently, whenever a valid point has been made that is disagreed with by some of the members of this community, the post has been deleted, modified, or edited. Very often the topic has nothing to do with the Church other than the fact that that is what Her members believe.


Followed by this BS:

Moderator Note: Disagree if you will but TOS #17 will be enforced!


Note that there is no attempt to refute my  testimony of their censorship by staff when they are unable to challenge Orthodoxy.

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« Reply #327 on: April 05, 2003, 04:51:59 PM »

I just finished writing this, with the intention of sending to the WCC, NCC, Beliefnet.com, and other parties that might be interested.  On second thought, I don't think it will accomplish anything and it might be best to work on more worthy projects.  Nevertheless, it felt good to write:



Greetings in the Name of the Lord!

For the past month, many members of the discussion boards at http://christianity.com have been censored for Terms of Service(TOS) agreement violations.  Many of these were members of those boards for well over a year.  The reason their posts were deleted, their threads locked down, and their accounts banned was not because they were espousing non-Christian religions.  It was because they wanted to participate in these discussions as members of historic Christian bodies such as the Anglican, Byzantine Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Roman Catholic churches.  This participation was viewed by the moderators of this board to violate in particular TOS#17 which states:1

"Do not make statements either by posts or posting URLs to other Websites which advocate activities, beliefs or teachings contrary to those of Christianity as articulated by the historic creeds, as understood by Evangelicalism, and as interpreted by ChristianBBS.com/Christianity.com its sole discretion.

Refrain from making statements or URLs which promote the acceptability of the homosexual lifestyle, adult entertainment, sexual immorality or pagan and false religions. No repeated posting of URLs to sites which have content that would violate the Terms of Service, the Nicene Creed or other majorly accepted scopes of Christian beliefs as interpreted by the owners of this site at their sole discretion. If you are unsure about a site or content please direct your question to community@christianity.com. This rule also applies to any material whether it be on the web, in print, on video, or on audio. (No telling everyone to go check out Anton Lavey's latest published audio speech.)"

By enforcing this TOS against posts made by Anglicans, Catholics, Orthodox, etc articulating the positions of their doctrine in the Doctrine and Relgion board is clearly seen in the same light as posting a speech by Anton LaVey, a writer and leader of the Chruch of Satan.

Near the end of TOS#17 it states that no one can post a message or a link to information that violates teachings held by historic creeds.  It later goes on to name specifically the Nicene Creed.  The members that have been censored have violated neither the Nicene Creed nor Christianity.com's statement of faith.2  

This is being enforced now when it has not before as now there is a sizable minority of members of these historic Christian groups that are censored from speaking of their church's doctrines in every board including the Religion and Doctrine message board because they are not "evangelicals."  This is interpreted by those in authority on these boards as Baptist, Charismatic, and Reformed only.  Whenever we post even prayers for the sick and suffering on the Prayer discussion board, we are censored because we violate TOS by using liturgical prayer.

Those members who have not been banned outright are reduced to responding to attacks on their churches(many using vicious insults like "Whore of Bablylon" or "pit of deceit") by saying "I disagree but due to this board's TOS I am not able to reply further.  I pray for all of you."  

We the undersigned feel that the administration of this site does not represent Christianity in any sense beyond that held by a handful of communions.  We ask that everyone who reads this message please consider discontinuing support for the Christianity.com website until such time as it reformed to allow the civil discussion of faith between all Christians or the webowners change the name of the site to something more descriptive to the positions the site actually holds.  


1 The full Terms of Service(TOS) may be found at: http://www.christianity.com/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,,PTID1000|CHID74|CIID1508686,00.html

2 Christianity.com's Statement of Faith may be found at: http://home.christianity.com/local/60478.html
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« Reply #328 on: April 05, 2003, 05:04:58 PM »

Quote
I just finished writing this, with the intention of sending to the WCC, NCC, Beliefnet.com, and other parties that might be interested.  On second thought, I don't think it will accomplish anything and it might be best to work on more worthy projects.  

A very good summary of why we should be offended.  Like you, I am not sure what good it would do, perhaps targeting a few of the more moderate sponsors (www.navy.com might be a great place to start Smiley ) of the site (if any) would get the attention of the owners of the board.  Would a newsgroup post do any good ?

On the second thought, reaching out those that are led down what can be the wide path, and bringing them home is a worthy project.  However, our enemy is like a crouching lion, perhaps greater fields lie elsewhere for us.


Lord have mercy on us all.
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« Reply #329 on: April 05, 2003, 05:24:10 PM »

Yes I'm rather ambivalent toward it myself.  I mostly just wanted to put my frustrations down in writing and thought those here that share those frustrations might like reading it.  If someone wants to modify it or send it, feel free.  I wrote it anonymously.  I'm pretty much done with it at this point.  Life is too short and there are far too many tangible people that we can share the love of Christ as reflected in the Church with in our own communities rather than waste time with those on the internet who only want to bicker.  

It's funny... the only one of my posts in that thread that wasn't deleted was my quotation of Frederica Mathewes-Green's book.  The Paschal Sermon of St. Chrysostom was a bit too reactionary for them I guess.
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« Reply #330 on: April 05, 2003, 05:29:23 PM »

I'm really tempted to send it to the Navy.  I don't think they would be too thrilled to see the RC faith shared by thousands of their sailors trashed.
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« Reply #331 on: April 05, 2003, 06:49:05 PM »

Given that some of the Mods are found of saying "The TOS overrulre the freedom of speech", I think it might be a good idea to let some of the sponsers know what they are supporting.

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« Reply #332 on: April 05, 2003, 08:28:51 PM »

I find it strange that you refer to them as your enemies.. must everything always be us against them? Good against evil, light against darkness? We are utterly right and they are not...

They have accepted Christ and they are as wary of you as you are of them. I do not see one true church against the other.. I see a house divided against itself.

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If the best thing one can do is point out what they believe darkness be... then how will anyone find light?

The strongest and purest statement of faith i have ever heard was simply: "I love you God"
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« Reply #333 on: April 05, 2003, 09:35:48 PM »

Lavis,

I do not mean that the members of CBBS themselves are the enemy.  The evil one, Satan, uses men for his plans, to draw others away from The Way.  It is us against the evil one, and we shall prevail with the help and Grace of God, Who will deliver us from him.
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« Reply #334 on: April 06, 2003, 01:33:11 AM »

I find it strange that you refer to them as your enemies.. must everything always be us against them? Good against evil, light against darkness? We are utterly right and they are not...

They have accepted Christ and they are as wary of you as you are of them. I do not see one true church against the other.. I see a house divided against itself.



What is the alternative, Lavis?

Is it to say, "Gee, they might be right," when we know they are NOT right?

Have they accepted Christ, or merely a "Christ" of their own imagining?

Did Jesus say, "All those who are sincere will be saved" ?

Sincerity will undoubtedly be a mitigating factor at the Judgment, but it is not the means of salvation.

Christ founded the living, teaching Church, which the Holy Spirit declared through Paul is Christ's Body (Eph. 1:22-23) and "the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).

It seems to me that those who have "accepted Christ" should accept the authority He Himself created.

Besides that, the question is not who "accepts Christ," but rather who is accepted by Christ.

That acceptance is available through repentance and baptism into Christ's Church (Acts 2:38-39), through participation in the sacraments (John 6:53), and in the performance of good works as reflected in a changed life, in forgiving others, and in acts of charity and kindness (James 2).

Christianity is not a religion of isolated, private enlightenment or "faith alone" (with emphasis on the "alone").

Salvation is a life-long process that takes place within the living community of Christians, who are one precisely BECAUSE they all partake in faith of the Body and Blood of Christ in the sacrament of the Eucharist (see 1 Cor. 10:17).

How can those who deny the historic Christian faith be said to have "accepted Christ?"

Their rejection of the Church is a rejection of Jesus Christ Himself.




« Last Edit: April 06, 2003, 01:41:10 AM by Linus7 » Logged

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« Reply #335 on: April 06, 2003, 11:35:26 AM »

To not be right in one area is sin.. however they have Christ.. how can you deny this Linus?

There are former drug addicts and Alchoholics who have turned away and found the love of Christ and are now doing great things in His name.. will you deny them too?

I see such evidence with my very eyes.. are we to say such things are false? They are part of the body of Christ Linus, they accepted Christ and love Him very much.

I find it strange that you say how can those that deny the historic faith... are you not in the same boat Linus? How can the RC and the Orthodox be the true church at the same time? Someone must be missing something somewhere.. and for that which you condemn you could be condemned as well.

God wants sincerity Linus he does not want our sacrifices or our rituals, He wants more.. our hearts....


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« Reply #336 on: April 06, 2003, 12:22:57 PM »

To not be right in one area is sin.. however they have Christ.. how can you deny this Linus?

There are former drug addicts and Alchoholics who have turned away and found the love of Christ and are now doing great things in His name.. will you deny them too?

I see such evidence with my very eyes.. are we to say such things are false? They are part of the body of Christ Linus, they accepted Christ and love Him very much.

I find it strange that you say how can those that deny the historic faith... are you not in the same boat Linus? How can the RC and the Orthodox be the true church at the same time? Someone must be missing something somewhere.. and for that which you condemn you could be condemned as well.

God wants sincerity Linus he does not want our sacrifices or our rituals, He wants more.. our hearts....





The vast majority of born-into-the faith--cradle Orthodox--would agree with you, Lavis Knight.

God bless you!
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« Reply #337 on: April 06, 2003, 08:05:19 PM »

To not be right in one area is sin.. however they have Christ.. how can you deny this Linus?

There are former drug addicts and Alchoholics who have turned away and found the love of Christ and are now doing great things in His name.. will you deny them too?

I see such evidence with my very eyes.. are we to say such things are false? They are part of the body of Christ Linus, they accepted Christ and love Him very much.

I find it strange that you say how can those that deny the historic faith... are you not in the same boat Linus? How can the RC and the Orthodox be the true church at the same time? Someone must be missing something somewhere.. and for that which you condemn you could be condemned as well.

God wants sincerity Linus he does not want our sacrifices or our rituals, He wants more.. our hearts....




You misunderstand me, Lavis. I condemn no one. I judge no one.

I do not know the status of those who claim to "have Christ" and yet deny so much that He taught and the authority He Himself ordained.

All sorts of groups have produced reformed alcoholics and drug addicts. AA and other secular rehab organizations can boast such things, as can Scientology.

Is Scientology part of the Body of Christ?

Many people have cleaned up their acts as a consequence of becoming Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and even Muslims.

Are they all part of the Body of Christ?

Sincerity is important. I believe it will be one factor considered by the Lord at the Judgment.

But sincerity alone is not the measure of whether or not one is a Christian.

Of course God wants our hearts. But how can we give Him our hearts if we will not obey Him?

I like people a lot, Lavis. You do not know how tempting it is for me to buy into the "I'm okay, you're okay" mentality.

I truly hope God will find a way to ultimately save everyone who has ever lived, including the devil.

But I cannot say for sure He will, nor do I have the authority to pronounce that they are all somehow part of the Body of Christ when they most certainly are not.





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« Reply #338 on: April 06, 2003, 08:12:17 PM »

Quote
From Uturn: The vast majority of born-into-the faith--cradle Orthodox--would agree with you, Lavis Knight.

God bless you!

Uturn seems to think that "cradle Orthodox" are somehow superior to converts.

Converts like St. Paul, perhaps?

The Orthodox Church is the Catholic Church. She is not the preserve of any one particular ethnic group or of any several. She is for all people, regardless of their origins.

"Cradle Orthodox," or any other kind of Orthodox, who agree that members of Protestant sects are part of the Body of Christ are in error and do not understand the teaching of their own Church.

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« Reply #339 on: April 06, 2003, 08:56:30 PM »

Here's the problem with hard-core and evangelical Protestants -- they are addicted to the "high" of their religious "experience". They are no different than an alcoholic. All you can do is wait for them to hit bottom (i.e. they have gone through all the hype of "speaking in tongues", "healings", etc.) and realize that the "highs" are now normal. That’s when the disillusionment starts to set in and the back-sliding starts.

I know -- I was heavily into that years ago. Hook, line and sinker into the Assemblies of God mode. I even did the "Speaking in Tounges" thing (although NOW I realize that it was a type of crowd induced mass-hysteria)

My experience leads me to believe that most evangelical, hard core Protestants ARE the "spiritual enemy". I don't want to sound all hard-core here, but I believe that the Evil One uses the bodily pleasures of the evangelicals to divert them from the true Word of God. All you have to do is see how they lash out and reject anything that would take away that "high" that they are on.

I am sure that this has been proposed by others, but to me, if you read the history of the church then Eastern Orthodoxy MUST be the "true church". If Satan is given  dominion over the earth, then what better way of keeping the truth away from the souls but to

1) basically breakup of the church (Great Schism)
2) create a new religion (Islam), enslave the Orthodox Church under that religion
3) then when the church starts to thrive in another land, enslave it again (i.e. Communism in Russia), thereby stopping any attempts at converting other souls
4) Corrupt the remaining half (RC) of the true church through greed, power, and heresy (i.e. Papal primacy, infallibility, inqusitions) -- but please understand, that I am not denying that greed and power are not also unfortunately a part the current and past Eastern Orthodox church.
5) Use that Roman Church to attack the True Church (Crusades), and then finally
6) break up the remaining half into thousands of little churches (divide and conquer).

It just makes total logical sense to me.


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« Reply #340 on: April 06, 2003, 09:11:49 PM »

TomS -

I agree with your assessment of much of the Evangelical wing of Protestantism. I had much of the same experience you had (although I never could quite make the tongues thing work!).

For me it was like a narcotic or rather a stimulant.

That's why I was such a raging Dispensationalist as a teenager. I was dying to see the world start coming to an end! I was anxiously waiting for the old Soviet Union to invade Israel, just like Hal Lindsey said it would, and for the appearance of the Antichrist.

Of course, I believed I would be "raptured" before any real suffering set in.

Archbishop Averky Taushev said that, in his view, the Protestant Reformation was part of the process of the great apostasy ("falling away" - 2 Thess. 2:3) that precedes the appearance of the Antichrist.
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« Reply #341 on: April 06, 2003, 09:22:13 PM »

Oh Yeah! I remember in 1972 a Pentacostal circuit-rider coming through and telling us that the Rapture was going to happen in 1978.

I was 14 at the time and just kept thinking that I hoped that I was married by then cause I wanted to have a family and kids. And it just wasn't right that I would not be able to do that!

I used to carry a bible to school and was a real "Jesus Freak".
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« Reply #342 on: April 06, 2003, 09:26:48 PM »

TomS -

LOL!  Grin

You and I are roughly the same age, and I too was a "Jesus Freak."

I carried my Scofield Reference Bible almost everywhere and even handed out Chick tracts (oh, the shame!).

Actually, I had a lot of fun, but it didn't last.

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« Reply #343 on: April 06, 2003, 09:41:13 PM »

And man could I quote some scripture! Amazing how ignorant I was of the meaning.

We were all fine as long as we ran around quoting

I Thessalonions 4:14-17.
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« Reply #344 on: April 06, 2003, 09:44:08 PM »

Quote
I carried my Scofield Reference Bible almost everywhere and even handed out Chick tracts (oh, the shame!).

 Shocked

Thankfully our God is a merciful God  Grin

IIRC chick.com is one of the approved links on berean's site.   Cheesy
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« Reply #345 on: April 06, 2003, 09:48:44 PM »

Chick Traks!! Hah!! They are still around?

kyrie eleson emas!
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« Reply #346 on: April 06, 2003, 09:52:23 PM »

Yes, I am mortally ashamed of having handed out Chick tracts.

I even used to have a subscription to the extreme Fundamentalist Baptist newspaper, The Sword of the Lord. At the time I thought it was great. It was run then by John R. Rice and featured a lot of articles by a young, relatively unknown preacher named Jerry Falwell.

I saw J. Vernon McGee (Thru the Bible Radio) speak in person once.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #347 on: April 06, 2003, 09:53:04 PM »

Here they are !

The sad part is, you could post this link at CBBS and it would get nothing but hearty AMENS from many of the regulars and mods.
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« Reply #348 on: April 06, 2003, 09:57:51 PM »

Wow. I see the artwork has not gotten any better -- What WILL THEY DO now that the founder/artist of Mad magazine died???

I feel so OLD now!

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« Reply #349 on: April 06, 2003, 10:02:42 PM »

Come to think of it, it did feel a bit like SPY vs SPY over at CBBS
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« Reply #350 on: April 06, 2003, 10:04:53 PM »

I would really like to see some statistics on effectiveness of these tracts. I have yet to read one that is not insulting. They strike me as thinly veiled propaganda.

Maybe OthodoxAnswers needs to start making tracts. Grin Anyone out there a decent artist?



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« Reply #351 on: April 06, 2003, 10:06:50 PM »

You know, Orthodox Answers should do tracts.  And cassettes. If we could get 5 good talks prepared and get them on tape, and purchased a tape duplicator (cost US $1400) Orthodox Answers could start out as a real-world presence.

anastasios
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« Reply #352 on: April 06, 2003, 10:09:10 PM »

I have a son who is an excellent artist. He is a 23-year-old U.S. Army retiree. Got hurt out in the desert (at Fort Irwin in California) and is now on 100% disability.

I think Orthodox tracts are an excellent idea.

I believe Chick tracts have been very effective for Evangelicals, although I have nothing more than anecdotal proof of that. I know they had a powerful influence on my friends and me when we were teenagers.

Is Jack Chick dead now?
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« Reply #353 on: April 06, 2003, 10:10:24 PM »

There is some really weird stuff on Ol Jacks site

On Vampires (can you guess what's coming in this excerpt  Wink )

Quote
A surprising number of these people perform their vampirism in a religious context of some sort, quite frequently rooted in Catholicism. Such was my case. I was introduced to the vampire cult by members of the Orthodox clergy, who led me to believe that they were the ancient custodians of the true secret of resurrection: drinking the blood of the living! (For a full account of my descent into this nightmare world, see Lucifer Dethroned chapters 1 & 18.)

Their claims to me were verified by initiations which I experienced that ultimately produced in me a marked aversion to all food except for human blood, communion wafers and sacramental wine! I developed a genuine addiction to fresh blood - more powerful than bondage to any drug! Only Jesus could subsequently heal me of this, and to Him goes all glory and honor and praise! Satan obviously knows what he is doing. The prohibition of drinking of blood is one of the few commandments of the Lord which cuts across the time of Noah (see above) the Mosaic Law (Lev. 3:17, 7:26) and even into the New Testament church (Acts 15:20, 29). God did this because He knows that there is something compelling and darkly exciting in vampirism, for "the blood is the life." (Deut. 12:23).

True vampirism is not a joke, nor is it a ghost story. Christians need to understand that this is a real (albeit uncommon) affliction, just like drug abuse or child abuse. Sadly, it is getting more common. Because of the universal taboos and biblical commands against blood drinking, many newly saved Christians, whose past included vampirism, now struggle with serious issues. "Can I be a Born Again vampire?" "Can God forgive me?" "Will the church ever accept such a monster as I?"

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« Reply #354 on: April 06, 2003, 10:11:02 PM »

You know, Orthodox Answers should do tracts.  And cassettes. If we could get 5 good talks prepared and get them on tape, and purchased a tape duplicator (cost US $1400) Orthodox Answers could start out as a real-world presence.

anastasios

I am not rich, but I am willing to contribute.

 Cool
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« Reply #355 on: April 06, 2003, 10:11:58 PM »

I would be happy to contribute to the creation of tracks. But trust me, you don't want me drawing.

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« Reply #356 on: April 06, 2003, 10:12:55 PM »

What about CD's ?  We could burn them for next to nothing ...
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« Reply #357 on: April 06, 2003, 10:13:39 PM »

You know, Orthodox Answers should do tracts.  And cassettes. If we could get 5 good talks prepared and get them on tape, and purchased a tape duplicator (cost US $1400) Orthodox Answers could start out as a real-world presence.


How about CD's?
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« Reply #358 on: April 06, 2003, 10:14:51 PM »

Why aren't we discussing this in the chat room? It might flow better.
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« Reply #359 on: April 06, 2003, 10:15:29 PM »

Or 8-tracks?

Now that's tradition!  Grin
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