OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 20, 2014, 06:27:54 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 »   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: To the Orthodox Apologists  (Read 44264 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
demetrios
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 18



« Reply #270 on: April 02, 2003, 01:32:49 PM »

ok so maybe I will try a different strategy before I try this. I want to try to help them see the truth because I know that they can be good people but just not know what is right. if I can convert someone it would be great. so I will subtly post there
Logged
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #271 on: April 02, 2003, 01:39:04 PM »

Demetrios -

May God bless you, but I suggest you try this experiment before you post at CBBS:

First stuff a gag in your mouth. Then tie both hands behind your back. Now attempt to speak while typing at the keyboard.

Now you know how posting at CBBS feels.

We all need to get together and figure out a more effective way to evangelize Protestants.

Perhaps we could produce our own tracts and distribute them.

Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
Sapiens
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 15



« Reply #272 on: April 02, 2003, 02:28:29 PM »

So I read about Monkey's banishment.  I am made genuinely angry.

I'm all for whatever efforts can be made to evangelize protestants.  I want to pass on the truth that I've received.

I'm a solid writer and can exposit concepts well, but I have no experience designing tracts.  There are a couple at my church that I could use as a model, but far be it from me to go at these things on my own.

I'm starting to think in an Orthodox framework.  Before long I'll take up the cross at CBBS until they ban me.
Logged
gecko
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 16



« Reply #273 on: April 02, 2003, 02:30:29 PM »

Fritz is looking into my complaint against w_c. We'll see what happens.

Steve
Logged
demetrios
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 18



« Reply #274 on: April 02, 2003, 03:57:43 PM »

I will cooperate with you on whatever you want to do so I'm open to suggestions.
by the way I am really liking this forum because it is so active. I can post every hour and there will be a reply before the next Cheesy
Logged
demetrios
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 18



« Reply #275 on: April 02, 2003, 04:51:29 PM »

after having gone there for a while I have a way to alter the experiment you suggested Linus, it is go outside and talk to a brick wall Shocked
Logged
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #276 on: April 02, 2003, 05:06:04 PM »

after having gone there for a while I have a way to alter the experiment you suggested Linus, it is go outside and talk to a brick wall Shocked

Ahhh . . . so you have been posting there!  Wink

Frustrating, isn't it?
Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #277 on: April 02, 2003, 05:09:57 PM »

So I read about Monkey's banishment.  I am made genuinely angry.

I'm all for whatever efforts can be made to evangelize protestants.  I want to pass on the truth that I've received.

I'm a solid writer and can exposit concepts well, but I have no experience designing tracts.  There are a couple at my church that I could use as a model, but far be it from me to go at these things on my own.

I'm starting to think in an Orthodox framework.  Before long I'll take up the cross at CBBS until they ban me.  

Sapiens -

Check out www.orthodoxanswers.com .

Join the St. Justin Martyr Society (that's most of us here).

Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
demetrios
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 18



« Reply #278 on: April 02, 2003, 07:02:34 PM »

I have posted there a few times now and I am beginning to see the all out hate they have for us. I am upset at myself because I got so wrapped up in it that I may have come off hostile and that is not what I want.
Logged
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #279 on: April 02, 2003, 08:10:25 PM »

I have posted there a few times now and I am beginning to see the all out hate they have for us. I am upset at myself because I got so wrapped up in it that I may have come off hostile and that is not what I want.

Demetrios -

I really know what you mean!

I think God has used us to do some good at CBBS, but the experience has had a negative effect on my soul.

I know all about the hostility one can begin to feel after debating there. You may have noticed all the venting I've been doing since the mods over there started their censorship campaign.

I used to be a Protestant, but I sure learned a lot about Protestants from my experiences at CBBS - all of it bad.

I ask you all to pray for me that God will have mercy on me and grant me peace and the ability to completely forgive (but not necessarily to forget).
Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
prodromos
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,463

Sydney, Australia


« Reply #280 on: April 03, 2003, 02:23:34 AM »

I'll pray that you forget too. It is best to give them a clean slate every time you deal with them otherwise you will not be able to love them as you should. I must admit that I am not too successful at this myself.

Can anybody tell that I'm reading Gerontissa Gavrilla at the moment? Grin

John
Logged
prodromos
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,463

Sydney, Australia


« Reply #281 on: April 03, 2003, 08:47:55 AM »

It occured to me to have a look in the Christianity.com Support forum and saw what Monkey and Linus had posted. I like how Winter_Crow immediately locks the thread after responding so no one else can have their say. In fact, only the threads in the support forum that were started by Orthodox have been locked.

I thought W_C's response to the "The Where were the Evangelicals? thread" was telling:
Quote
One of the duties of moderators is to ensure that threads continue in a constructive way. This thread had 190 posts in it and after much discussion, including my reply that there were no modern day evangelicals 2000 years ago, you were still carrying on as if the issue had not been addressed. The issue was discussed at length and the thread had ceased to be constructive so it was closed.

Of course every protestant on the forum must hold the same opinion as he does, despite the fact that a number of them were trying to show some kind of evidence. Winter_Crow has spoken and all must obey. Roll Eyes

John.
Logged
gecko
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 16



« Reply #282 on: April 03, 2003, 10:12:16 AM »

It occured to me to have a look in the Christianity.com Support forum and saw what Monkey and Linus had posted. I like how Winter_Crow immediately locks the thread after responding so no one else can have their say. In fact, only the threads in the support forum that were started by Orthodox have been locked.

I thought W_C's response to the "The Where were the Evangelicals? thread" was telling:
Quote
One of the duties of moderators is to ensure that threads continue in a constructive way. This thread had 190 posts in it and after much discussion, including my reply that there were no modern day evangelicals 2000 years ago, you were still carrying on as if the issue had not been addressed. The issue was discussed at length and the thread had ceased to be constructive so it was closed.

Of course every protestant on the forum must hold the same opinion as he does, despite the fact that a number of them were trying to show some kind of evidence. Winter_Crow has spoken and all must obey. Roll Eyes

John.

Yes, that is highly frustrating. I had a response for NiC in the "baptism that now saves" thread fomenting in my mind and before I knew it it was closed down. Pity.

Still, Fritz took care of one of W_C's posts in "protestant vs. Catholic bible" but he didn't put in the dreaded "editted for TOS #17 violation" line. There truly is no balance, fairness, nor Christian charity for discenting views... Another pity.

Humbly,
Steve
Logged
Oblio
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 454

The Pointless One !


WWW
« Reply #283 on: April 03, 2003, 11:23:44 AM »

More words of wisdom from WC over at CBBS ...

In regards to an OP that asked for help on studying the Bible I post a link to Bp. Ware's article.  I received this from winter_crow:

Quote
Sorry Oblio but that links to a site that advocates a non-evangelical view of studying the Bible.
Logged
demetrios
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 18



« Reply #284 on: April 03, 2003, 11:47:21 AM »

this winter crow is a thorn in my side. and others there compared us to mormons and such. it is frustrating but I try my best not to loose my cool.
Logged
demetrios
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 18



« Reply #285 on: April 03, 2003, 12:05:40 PM »

on cbbs I have a new thread started "ask the orthodox christians" I would apreciate any help I can get over there Shocked I have seen Oblio over there plenty thanks for helping.
Logged
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #286 on: April 03, 2003, 01:30:58 PM »

on cbbs I have a new thread started "ask the orthodox christians" I would apreciate any help I can get over there Shocked I have seen Oblio over there plenty thanks for helping.

I am no prophet, but I predict that thread will not last very long.

With a title like that, it is just screaming to be censored by the Pharaoh of Fundamentalism.
Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #287 on: April 03, 2003, 05:31:40 PM »

Okay. I know that Monkey and dadof10 have both been actually and officially banished from CBBS.

They are worthy of our admiration and respect for taking a stand for the truth.

I have not actually been banished yet because I quit posting (pretty much) when they began censoring practically everything I had to say.

I am strongly tempted to go over to CBBS and post something really Orthodox just to see what happens.

But I probably won't.

I am much happier here among friends and brothers and sisters in Christ.  Smiley
« Last Edit: April 03, 2003, 05:33:19 PM by Linus7 » Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,062


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #288 on: April 03, 2003, 06:00:13 PM »

Or you could go ahead and post something blatantly Orthodox, get officially banned, and go down in glory.  Smiley
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
demetrios
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 18



« Reply #289 on: April 03, 2003, 06:25:09 PM »

I know it was not the most inteligent idea but I will try to get back in under a new name some day but after this I will do what Linus said and just be happy here with other orthodox christians. Embarrassed
Logged
Orthodox servant86
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 12



« Reply #290 on: April 03, 2003, 07:16:06 PM »

Hello everyone, allow me just to say right now that I have been following, silently, over the past few months the progress of this great and noble endeavour against what was doctrinal error and is now complete and utterly disgusting censorship.

The efforts made by you, my brethren and by some of our Roman Catholic brethren on that forum have been noble, and I am sure Chrysostom and Justin are proud. It is my opinion that many of your responses in those threads should be collected along with valable protestant responses and compiled into a book. What you have posted is apologetics at their best, and whenever you choose to shake the dust from your feet, you shall have my highest respect.

Monkey, news of your banning grieves me terribly. Had I only the power to revoke that decision, believe me, I would, the policies of the moderators on that forum are similar to the Soviet Unions's policy of censorship under Stalin.

And so, I end by saying to you that you have all our support if you choose to leave that forum in order to escape the insanity. Should you choose to stay, then Godspeed and the prayers of the church be with you.

Peace and farewell

In Christ,
Justin
Logged
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #291 on: April 03, 2003, 08:51:11 PM »

Orthodox_servant86 -

Why "farewell" ?

Such an eloquent post demands many an encore.

Thanks for your kind words.
Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
Oblio
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 454

The Pointless One !


WWW
« Reply #292 on: April 03, 2003, 09:03:45 PM »

Yes, thank you for the kind words.  
I am afraid I have let down the Saints who pray for us, and failed in my endeavors to please Christ in spreading His Word.  OServant, please stay here and join our little group Smiley
Logged
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #293 on: April 03, 2003, 09:09:27 PM »

Yes, thank you for the kind words.  
I am afraid I have let down the Saints who pray for us, and failed in my endeavors to please Christ in spreading His Word.  OServant, please stay here and join our little group Smiley

Oblio -

I saw your posts. They were great. You have not let anyone down.

You have been a true champion of the Orthodox faith.

However, be advised, I am whippin' you big time on numbers of posts here!  Wink

(It's the shotgun principle: fire enough pellets and one might hit the mark!)

« Last Edit: April 03, 2003, 09:12:55 PM by Linus7 » Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
gecko
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 16



« Reply #294 on: April 03, 2003, 09:24:04 PM »

From a "non-orthodox" view I must agree. When held to the fire you have all proven much, displaying Christ to those who would not listen.

Humbly,
Steve

Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,062


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #295 on: April 03, 2003, 09:24:33 PM »

Hey Servant, just a few weeks ago I was wondering what happened to you, and now you're leaving?  Come back!
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Monkey
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 74


Recovering Protestant


« Reply #296 on: April 03, 2003, 09:28:01 PM »

It's sooooo tempting to go back a re-register with a different email address.

By the way, how many posts do I need to get my second cross?

Logged
Monkey
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 74


Recovering Protestant


« Reply #297 on: April 03, 2003, 09:31:10 PM »

Oblio,

Could you explain your avatar/icon to me?

Sorry for the OT post.
Logged
Oblio
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 454

The Pointless One !


WWW
« Reply #298 on: April 03, 2003, 09:42:31 PM »

My patron Saint, Christopher, bearer of Christ.

My given name was Robert Christopher, so Abp. DMITRI (OCA) gave me the name Christopher for my Christian name Smiley  He asked if that was OK with me Shocked, so I said ...well ... OK, if you insist  Grin

In IC XC,
Christopher
« Last Edit: April 03, 2003, 09:49:34 PM by Oblio » Logged
Orthodox servant86
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 12



« Reply #299 on: April 04, 2003, 01:00:38 AM »

Oh my, it seems I owe you all an apology  Smiley

You see, I am not leaving, if anything, I will be around more often as I am to be chrismated and received into the holy Church on the 13th of april. I said "farewell" because that is simply my antiquated english acting up again  Wink. I mean it literally as "fare": to be, to go about "well": speaks for itself Smiley

Just my way of saying goodbye for now.

Peace

In Christ,
Justin
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,062


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #300 on: April 04, 2003, 01:25:52 AM »

Congratulations, Justin, and welcome back (and home!).
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
demetrios
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 18



« Reply #301 on: April 04, 2003, 11:27:57 AM »

I was just officially banned and my account dissabled. I guess my strategy was not smart but it was a try. Sad
Logged
Monkey
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 74


Recovering Protestant


« Reply #302 on: April 04, 2003, 12:37:32 PM »

Maybe we should start a club.
Logged
David
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of the South)
Posts: 1,952


Retired GM


WWW
« Reply #303 on: April 04, 2003, 01:20:27 PM »

Well... I just registered at CBBS... this was going to be my first post but I made myself take five minutes to think before I hit the submit button and realized that it would be taken as inflamatory as the spirit in which I was posting it was inflamatory.  I guess I'll try to be more meek.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Convesations with Protestant Sectarians

   On September 1, 1927, Father Kyril Zaits had the occasion to be in the Ascension parish on the feast day of St. Simeon Stylites.  Every year on this day there was a large gathering of people.  Many came by train from distant places and returned home on the evening train.
   This time there were many passengers, particularly peasants in the third class coach.  There were also members of the local intelligentsia, merchants and several Jewish people to be seen.
   The time was after 10 P.M. and some of the passengers were dozing off, while others, on raised bunks, were preparing to sleep.  Talking could be heard through-out the entire coach since the compartment was not closed.  Suddenly, in the compartment next to mine, some passenger began to speak especially passionately and loudly.  General conversation died down and Father Kyril was roused from his dozing.
   The speaker, a young man of small stature, began to walk about the coach, inviting everyone to listen to him.  Evidently many people became interested.
   "I was a great sinner.  I did not know what spiritual life was...," said the young passenger, "but now here I am a believer!  I heard secret voices calling me to salvation.  I was converted and I became a different person.  I was saved by dear Jesus.  With his own blood he washed away my sins ... I now have no sins ... I am holy ... Christ is my brother, etc."
   While he spoke of himself, of his former sins and present holiness (and he spoke much), the public listened in silence and some women turned to the wall in order to doze off.  They probably were not listening to such a speech for the first time.
   Then however, the sectarian preacher began to touch upon Orthodox dogmas, especially the reverencing of ikons and objections began to be raised by the passengers.
   "So you worship the ikon of Simeon Stylites," said the Baptist.  "Ikons are unnecessary.  This is idol worship!  One cannot bow down before pictures!  The word of God forbids it ... It is necessary to pray only to dear Jesus ... I was wounded twice, was seriously ill, but I turned to Jesus Christ, prayed and became well without any ikons...".
   Objections were heard.  One irritated peasant asked the sectarian: "What are you doing here agitating us?  I likewise was seriously wounded, but I went to the church, asked our priest to serve a thanksgiving service before the ikon of the Mother of God and I became well."
   Thereupon a general discussion began.  The sectarian attempted to answer all the objections and began to sprinkle his speech with quotations from the Holy Scripture.  His speech became disunited.  Texts were introduced out of context and often pointlessly.  It seemed that he would achieve a victory of sorts by speaking endlessly.
   One could not tell if this eruption of words and playing with Holy Scripture would last long, but the argument had gradually become very heated, so Fr. Kyril, unable to sleep, decided to interject.
   The unexpected appearance of a priest at once cooled the sectarian.  Everyone became silent.
   "You have spoken quite a bit tonight, my friend," began Fr. Kyril, turning to the protestant, "but you have made precious little sense.  You have talked around and touched upon some things, but I for one cannot tell what it is that you are getting at.  You present yourself as saved and you have tried very hard to convince these people who are believers to accept that.  Never-the-less, it is clear that you are at enmity with Orthodox Christianity.
   "Please allow me to ask you several clear questions and be so kind as to reply to them clearly, without any misleading eloquence.
   "You are quite probably a preacher -- of which confession is of no significance to us at the present.  One thing however is clear; you are not in the Church of Christ.  Tell us, have you preserved the great spiritual wealth which the Holy Apostles have given to Christ's Church, or have you never thought of this?  In fact, have you ever even heard of this wealth?"
   The sectarian remained silent.
   Father Kyril continued, "Do you have the priesthood?  No?  But it has been in the Church from Apostolic times.  It was passed on by the apostles and it is clearly spoken of in that very Holy Bible which you are now holding in your hands.1
   "Have you preserved all the Mysteria (sacraments): baptism, chrismation, repentance, the Holy Eucharist, marraige, holy orders and unction?  These things were already established in the times of the apostles and they are spoken of in the holy books of the New Testament.2
   "Do you obey the Holy Gospel by honouring the Mother of God?3
   "Do you have prayerful intercourse with the Heavenly Church, with the holy apostles whose writings are in your hands right now, with the saints, martyrs, confessors and all the righteous?
   "Do you have prayerful intercourse with angels?  Do you pray to your guardian angel?
   "All this was in the Apostolic Church and all this remains with us in the Orthodox Church.
   "Do you have prayerful intercourse with deceased fathers, mothers, grandparents and all those who have reposed in the faith?  Do you pray for the dead, or have you forgotten about them so that death for you has proven to be stronger than the love of Christ?  Don't you know that they prayed for the dead in the Apostolic Church?
   "You do not honour ikons nor do you honour the life-giving Cross of the Lord.  And do you sign yourself with the Holy Cross?  Do you wear the cross on your breast in accordance with the words of the apostle -- 'bearing the reproach that he bore'.4  All this was known in the Apostolic Church.
   "My questions are clear and simple.  Answer them.  Why are you silent?  Well, what is there for you to say when you do not maintain any of this?  Can't you see that this is a great spiritual wealth?
   "Then tell us," continued Father Kyril, "what do you have?  Faith?  Yes, you brag of it and call upon these people to believe in Christ.  Your invitation, however, is late: all of these people, with the exception of two or three Jews, have believed in Christ for a long time already; they have been in the Church since childhood.  Calling upon Orthodox Christians to come to believe in Christ is foolish vanity.  We all believe incomparably more strongly than you.  We believe so strongly that we preserve all that has been handed down to us and we fulfill all that has been commanded -- you cannot say this of yourselves.
   "Call upon the Jews to believe in Christ, go to the heathens, to Mohammedans -- preach there, but not here amongst Orthodox believers.  
   "You cannot give us faith for we already have it.  What can you give?  What kind of spiritual treasure?  Absolutely nothing.  You come to us as a beggar in rags.
   "There was, however, something you said which was completely contrary to Christ's teaching: pride and self conceit.  We have heard only of your sinlessness, your holiness, about which you bragged and boasted.  But this does not deceive us.  We remember the words of the Apostle about the Christians of his own time: 'We all sin much'.5
   "Could it be that you sectarians, in your lives, are better than the first Christians?  The Apostle Paul says of himself, 'It is not to be thought that I have already achieved all this.  I have not yet reached perfection, but I press on, hoping to take hold of that for which Christ once took hold of me.  My friends, I do not reckon myself to have hold of it yet...'.6
   "And you believe that you have surpassed even the Holy Apostle in spiritual perfection?  The Apostle calls himself the 'Chief of sinners',7 but you call yourself 'holy'!?
   "Don't you see the absurdity of your boasting and on what a dangerous road you're walking?"
   The young man was silent.  Shortly the train came up to a station and some passengers reluctantly left this late night conversation.  When the train began to move again, the priest continued.
   "I would like to call your attention to one more thing.  You are holding a Bible in your hands.  You know and admit that every word in the Bible is the unalterable truth.  Good.  We Orthodox also acknowledge this.  I would say that you are a Baptist, yes?  Let us assume that there is an Adventist standing next to you, and over there is a Methodist and next to him a member of another Protestant sect and so on.  Let us say that there would be several hundred men gathered here since now Protestant sects number in the hundreds.  Each man will be holding a Bible.  You all acknowledge the Bible as your only source of faith.  You all preach that the Holy Spirit speaks by your lips.  Please tell us, then, why you do not all teach the same thing?  Why do you Protestants consider one another as being lost?  Do you mean to say that the Holy Spirit says one thing to one, and another thing to a second?  Did this ever cross your mind?
   "Here is a small example for you and it would be good for the rest of you to pay close attention to it also.  Let us assume that a jug of crystal clear water was brought here.  Each one of us is holding an absolutely clean glass.  Let each of us scoop up clear water with his glass from the common vessel.  In all glasses there will be seen absolutely identical clean water.
   "This young man has a Bible in his hands; this is the source of the purest water.  Why is it that when he scoops up water from it, when the Methodist, Adventist, Lutheran and all the rest scoop up water from it, they get unidentical water, unidentical teaching?
   "It is very simple.  Their glasses are not clean.  The glasses are their reason, their weak human minds.  Their minds are not clean; they are full of much sophistry and much destructive fantasy.  All of this they apply to the most pure water, to God's word.  Does one have to be so wise to see that their teachings are muddled, contradictory to one another and unhealthy, just as dirty water is not healthy?"
   Father Kyril paused and turned to the Baptist preacher.
   "I have finished for the time being.  Now you, my friend, have achieved the interest of these fellow-travellers of ours and you may give replies and explanations to all these questions which have been presented to you and we shall all listen."
   The preacher did not begin to speak at once.  It was necessary for him to come out of a somewhat difficult situation, especially since some passengers were beginning to make unflattering remarks about him among themselves.
   Then, without pathos, in a quieter voice, he began:
   "You have heard the priest just now speaking about ikons.  I will read to you what the Holy Scripture says about ikons."
   Thereupon, he began to read slowly from certain verses of the prophetic books -- Isaiah, Jeremiah -- about idols.  During the reading the Baptist explained and suggested that here, it was precisely saying that ikons are idols.
   When the reading had finished Fr. Kyril spoke up, "We have listened to your reading about idols but there are neither heathens nor idols here.  You said you would read about ikons.  Very well, then read to us about ikons.  Idols don't interest us."
   "There is nothing said about ikons in the Bible!" the Baptist retorted.
   "Are you really telling the truth?" asked the priest.  "I don't believe that you are so ignorant as to not know where ikons are spoken of in the Holy Scripture.  You know very well, but you don't want to read it.  It doesn't fit into your calculations.
   "Very well, I will indicate the place for you.  Find the twenty-fifth chapter of the book of Exodus and read it."8
   The young man hesistated, but the people began to demand that he read it.  Unwillingly, he sought out the indicated place.  He began to read slowly, as if thinking of what to say.  When he read about the ark of the covenant and the golden cherubims on top of the ark, the priest turned to him with the question:
   "Please tell us, the cherubims which Moses made of gold according to God's command, are they not idols according to you?"
   "That was in the Old Testament" replied the Protestant.  "We are living in the New Testament and we don't need the Old Testament..."
   "Is that so?" asked the priest.  "But when you wanted to read about idols in order to lead listeners into error, then the Old Testament was necessary.  It is a great sin to treat God's word in this manner, and you well know how our Saviour speaks about those who lead others, lesser than they, into error and temptation."
   The Baptist, feeling the awkwardness of his position, again began to read something more in reference to idols.
   "He always comes back to these idols of his!" Father Kyril said.  "Well, if you do not want to accept the testimony of the Old Testament about the Divine descent of holy images, let us turn to the New Testament.  Read several of the beginning verses from the ninth chapter of the Epistle to the Hebrews."9
   The sectarian fell silent.  We heard no more of his reading and talking.  Gradually, the farther passengers began to fall asleep, lulled by the rhythmic clacking of the train's wheels.

1. Deacons: Phil. 1:1; 1 Tim. 3:8, 10, 13; etc
   Presbyters: Acts 14:23,20:17; Tit. 1:5; 1 Cor. 4:1; 2 Cor. 3:6; etc. Rom. 1:9, 15:15
   Bishops: Acts 1:20; Phil. 1:1; 1 Tim. 3:1; etc.

2. See appendix 1.

3. Lk. 1:28; 42, esp. 48.

4. Heb. 13:13.  (The cross which Orthodox Christians wear is an ever-present reminder that we must bear persecution, humiliation and suffering for Christ's sake as we read in the "Beatitudes".  It is also the symbol of Christ and thus is an open confession that we belong to Him -- it is this open confession of Him that brings about the persecutions we must often bear.)

5. cf. 1 Jn. 1:8, "If we claim to be sinless, we are self-deceived and strangers to the truth."

6. Phil. 3:12-13.

7. 1 Tim. 1:15.

8. Esp. Ex. 25:18-19 (make two golden cherubims of beaten work); 26:2, 31, 32 ("...with ikons of cherubims worked into them."  The KJV has "images of cherubim", but the difference between these images and idols is quite clear -- they are ikons.)

9. This reading is introduced specifically to show the difference between "images" as spoken of in the Ten Commandments and ikonographic images such as God commanded Moses to make.
Logged

"When looking at faults, use a mirror, not a telescope."
-Yazid Ibrahim
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #304 on: April 04, 2003, 01:47:29 PM »

Amator Dei -

It might have been viewed at CBBS as inflammatory, but I think it was beautiful.  Grin

You should have posted it.
Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
Oblio
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 454

The Pointless One !


WWW
« Reply #305 on: April 04, 2003, 03:02:24 PM »

You could post it here
Logged
Oblio
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 454

The Pointless One !


WWW
« Reply #306 on: April 04, 2003, 03:21:41 PM »

 Grin

Amator,

You may have the record for the longest post deleted, or the lowest post count before being banned, or both !

Logged
David
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of the South)
Posts: 1,952


Retired GM


WWW
« Reply #307 on: April 04, 2003, 03:22:28 PM »

ENJOY IT WHILE IT LASTS!!!!

 Shocked  Shocked  Shocked
Logged

"When looking at faults, use a mirror, not a telescope."
-Yazid Ibrahim
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #308 on: April 04, 2003, 03:25:44 PM »

That thread will be locked down post haste.

Any real defense of Holy Orthodoxy will be deleted, censored, terminated.

Who will see it?

Why bother?
Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
the slave
intolerant of intolerance
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Catholic
Jurisdiction: UGCC
Posts: 810



« Reply #309 on: April 04, 2003, 03:29:03 PM »

Amator Dei,

Thank you for that fantastic post.

Linus7 don't be so gloomy - if even 1 person sees it and starts to think - then the effort was well worth it
Logged

"Never let anyone try to tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern. The West was fully Orthodox for a thousand years; and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies."
- St. John Maximovitch
David
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of the South)
Posts: 1,952


Retired GM


WWW
« Reply #310 on: April 04, 2003, 03:39:25 PM »


Why bother?

Quote
You should have posted it.

Feeling a bit scatterbrained today Linus?  Tongue   Cool
Logged

"When looking at faults, use a mirror, not a telescope."
-Yazid Ibrahim
Linus7
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,780



« Reply #311 on: April 04, 2003, 03:45:35 PM »


Why bother?

Quote
You should have posted it.

Feeling a bit scatterbrained today Linus?  Tongue   Cool

LOL!  Grin

I guess so!

Honestly, I thought you were saying we should go over and enjoy that thread.

That is why I posted "Why bother?"

I still think you should post the "Baptist on the train" story.  Cool

Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
David
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of the South)
Posts: 1,952


Retired GM


WWW
« Reply #312 on: April 04, 2003, 03:54:10 PM »

I *did* post it. Smiley  Click on the "Enjoy it while it lasts"  I've also gotten a few "anyone who wants to believe is in the church so let's join hands and sing kumbayah" responses.

I'm up to three posts in that thread. I don't predict it will have long to live, but we will see!
Logged

"When looking at faults, use a mirror, not a telescope."
-Yazid Ibrahim
Oblio
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 454

The Pointless One !


WWW
« Reply #313 on: April 04, 2003, 04:11:02 PM »

I've determined that NewinChrist is an evangelaBot  Grin
Logged
David
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of the South)
Posts: 1,952


Retired GM


WWW
« Reply #314 on: April 04, 2003, 04:16:32 PM »

Did you see the response I gave to NiC?

Quote
Simple yes, but then so are many forms of gnosticism. That does not make them true, nor biblical. Using the bible to try to prove claims about the church that created the very bible you hold in your hands is a circular argument that only proves a lack of both the letter and the spirit of scriptual text.

I would reccomend that you read some of the early Father's commentary on the scriptures you quote. Many of these texts can be found on www.ccel.org a site maintained by Wheaton University. Good luck in your bible studies, you show promise!
Logged

"When looking at faults, use a mirror, not a telescope."
-Yazid Ibrahim
Tags:
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 »   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.123 seconds with 72 queries.