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Author Topic: To the Orthodox Apologists  (Read 43888 times) Average Rating: 0
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gecko
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« Reply #225 on: March 31, 2003, 01:36:04 AM »

Steve -

I think your observations are very astute.

In a way I am glad about what has happened over at "Protestants R Us."

I was getting tired of beating my head against the brick wall over there, and the prolonged contact with heresy was wearing me down and making me feel kind of spiritually sick.

The Divine Liturgy each Sunday was my anti-venom.

Now I understand the master heresiarch (Berean53) is back at CBBS and in fine form, referring to all apostolic Christians as "cultists" and "idolaters," etc.

With the new constraints that have been imposed over there, it is now next to impossible to deal with people like him. Our deleted posts would only make him look good and make others think we had resorted to swearing and were being censored for that reason.

Ya know, TOS #17  is getting REALLY annoying. I can't follow the one sided conversations like this. What did you say to warrant the censoring?

This reminds me of my wife's experience with the new age occultisms. Seems that ANY religion but Christianity is a valid path to follow. And you can just mix and match as you go. Hey, if it works for you it works for me too. Hoo boy!

Steve
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« Reply #226 on: March 31, 2003, 10:52:21 AM »

Quote
This reminds me of my wife's experience with the new age occultisms. Seems that ANY religion but Christianity is a valid path to follow.

If that's the ONLY path they reject, ISTM that's evidence it's true. It's the only one they're afraid of.
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« Reply #227 on: March 31, 2003, 10:40:41 PM »

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From gecko: Ya know, TOS #17  is getting REALLY annoying. I can't follow the one sided conversations like this. What did you say to warrant the censoring?

I think you are referring to my post over on the thread Baptist vs. Catholic, in which I advised a young Catholic man who was dating a Baptist girl that she should convert or he should seek a new girlfriend.

That was evidently not my chief "sin," however.

The moderator in question sent me a PM advising me that I am not allowed to recommend Catholic books at CBBS.

I had recommended Karl Keating's Fundamentalism and Catholicism: the Attack on "Romanism" by "Bible Christians," and David Currie's Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic.

The OP had requested we suggest books he could read on the subject.

At CBBS that evidently means only certain kinds of books.
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« Reply #228 on: March 31, 2003, 11:05:18 PM »

: sigh :

I couldn't remember exactly what you had posted Linus, now I remember ...

What despicable actions by the staff & managment at CBBS.

I am waiting for my link (to fatheralexander.org) in the Lent, Fish & Mardi Gras thread to get deleted.  Never mind that the OP asked what Lent was, and I made it clear that my reply was in response to the OP.  I was even going to post a link to Fr. Schmemann's book on Great and Holy Lent, good thing I didn't.
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« Reply #229 on: March 31, 2003, 11:36:52 PM »

Oblio -

Yeah, I saw your Mardi Gras, etc. post. It was a great post, very informative and superbly written. I smiled when I saw it and waved a mental "bye-bye" to it (sorry!).  Wink

If we had recommended Reverend Ima Goober's Manual for West Virginia Pentecostal Snake Handlers, our posts would no doubt have solicited a hearty round of "amens!"
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« Reply #230 on: March 31, 2003, 11:40:16 PM »

I'm wondering, do you all think I've been sufficiently non-evangelical to be censored, or am I still a "viable" agent on that board?
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« Reply #231 on: March 31, 2003, 11:45:21 PM »

Good question, steve.

You have exposed yourself pretty well, at least to those who saw your posts at Tradition, Bible, & Church Authority.

However, I think the witch hunt is based on complaints received and by the personal animus of wintercrow. He absolutely hates me and Monkey and is none too fond of Oblio and dadof10.

He may not have "made" you yet, so you may have time.

Once he figures you out, however, you're a gone goose.

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« Reply #232 on: March 31, 2003, 11:47:16 PM »

Ah, who cares...

Cover me, boys. I'm goin in hot!

Wink

On to thoughts on baptism
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« Reply #233 on: April 01, 2003, 12:09:37 AM »

May the Lord shield you, Steve!

May you escape the "Butcher of Gag-dad" (and he's gagged Linus7, Oblio, and several others, too!)!  Grin
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« Reply #234 on: April 01, 2003, 12:12:50 AM »

How's this. Just posted to "baptism that now saves":

-----------------
In Reply To:
If you want another exercise in futility, try making this one fit:

"And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety." (1Tim 2:14-15)


What would you say dad of 10?
------------------

Gee, may I?

Consider that Paul, in Romans, speaks very eloquently that through Adam sin came and through Christ righteousness came, and salvation. Sin .vs salvation. I see this very same thought in the above:

That the woman was deceived, thus playing her part in bringing sin into the world. Yet, by Mary's obedience in childbearing, salvation came to all the world through Jesus Christ. The qualifier that Paul uses for the salvation of women is "Continue[ing] in faith, love and holiness with propriety" which really applies to all fo us doesn't it?

OK. I'm ready to be shot. Wink

Humbly,
Steve
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« Reply #235 on: April 01, 2003, 12:17:17 AM »

So gecko, does this make you a member of the Orthodox Foreign Legion  ? Grin

Through the prayers of St. Justin Martyr, may God go with you !
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« Reply #236 on: April 01, 2003, 12:17:35 AM »

You used the forbidden name - Mary!  Cool

You may indeed be shot!

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« Reply #237 on: April 01, 2003, 12:19:01 AM »

Oblio: Not yet.. Wink

Ok. Time to post to NiC. Goin' in, boys. Pickle!
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« Reply #238 on: April 01, 2003, 12:29:06 AM »

Steve -

Be careful. He may have been one of the ones who complained about us. NiC was pretty upset about his failure at Tradition, Bible, & Church Authority.

If you see Monkey over there, tell him to get over here and post a bit!  Grin

I need to get to bed.  Sad
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« Reply #239 on: April 01, 2003, 12:35:34 AM »

Me too, getting tired.

Trento (who appears to be RCC) just posted some quotes from the Early Church Fathers on the Anoiting with oil thread.
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« Reply #240 on: April 01, 2003, 12:43:56 AM »

Poor Trento.

He's doomed then, too (at CBBS, I mean).

I've seen his posts over there before. He was an infrequent poster but a staunch ally of ours.

Somebody tell him about OC.net!

I'm to bed!  Kiss
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« Reply #241 on: April 01, 2003, 01:04:27 AM »

Ok. I'm done there. Time for bed. You all have a wonderful night.

Steve
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« Reply #242 on: April 01, 2003, 01:23:15 AM »

If I may throw two cents in here, I would like to post one of my all time favorite quotes from an evangelical. It comes from Kenneth Copeland.

"I was shocked when I found out who the biggest failure in the Bible actually is...The biggest one in the whole Bible is God...I mean, He lost His top-ranking, most anointed angel; the first man He ever created; the first woman He ever created; the whole earth and all the fullness therein; a third of the angels, at least - that's a big loss, man....Now, the reason you don't think of God as a failure is He never said He's a failure. And you're not a failure till you say you're one." (Praise-a-thon on Praise The Lord, April 1988)


An honest preacher finally?
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« Reply #243 on: April 01, 2003, 08:32:42 AM »

Since you supplied some good advice from St. Silouan, I will supply an example from the life of St. Polycarp, who was dealing with someone a little more extreme than those to whom Silouan's Archimandrite was preaching:

On his visit to Rome Polycarp met the heretic Marcion, who called on Polycarp to recognize him, to which Polycarp replied, "I recognize, I recognize, the first-born of Satan." (From Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, quoted in Penguin Books' Early Christian Writings, p. 115).

I think the difference between St. Silouan's advice and what Polycarp had to say to Marcion is that evidently Silouan's Archimandrite was dealing with some folks who were essentially Orthodox (maybe Roman Catholics?), and Polycarp was dealing with a genuine soul-endangering heretic.

Obviously it would not do any good to call Fundamentalist Protestants "sons of Satan."

But it might be good to recall that many of the Fathers of the Church were not as easy-going as we are today.


And you would do well to remember that not all that appears in the lives of the saints is commendable. Perhaps you should greet these heretics with a right hook, in the manner of St. Nicholas. Polycarp sinned gravely in the example you cite, because he in essence stated that Marcion was not worth saving.

Discussions of "sacraments" versus ordinances stumble across two problems. First, you cannot very well deny that the Eucharist is an ordinance, because we are commanded to do it. And as far as "sacrament" is concerned, only polity evokes as wide a range of opinions. You can find every gradation of opinion on sacraments from strict memorialists to high-and-dry Anglicans who hold a higher theology of the sacrament than you do.

I have to say that posting pointers to anti-fundamentalist Catholic tracts in a evangelical- or fundamentalist-dominated forum is an act of aggression. It's more or less a proclamation that you're going to talk down to them and not listen to their replies.
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« Reply #244 on: April 01, 2003, 08:54:39 AM »

Polycarp sinned gravely in the example you cite, because he in essence stated that Marcion was not worth saving.
I disagree. Polycarp was administering the necessary dose of some very strong medicine. It may indeed have been just what Marcion needed to cause his immense pride to start crumbling, but we'll never know will we unless we find him standing on the Lord's right with all the other sheep on the last day (hopefully this won't be from a goats eye view).

John.
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« Reply #245 on: April 01, 2003, 01:39:41 PM »

May I have a blindfold and last smoke ?  Smiley

In response to the standard anti-Orthodox NiC rant ...

Quote
Holy Scripture is part of the Tradition of the Church. We are not the ones who have trampled, edited, or removed entire books from the Bible.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Quote
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In Christ, by His every WORD

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

What of the Word that was removed 1000 years after it gathered together into the Bible by the Church ? What happened to all Scripture is useful ... ?


And of course, we have Scripture that attests to the fact that the Bible is not the exhaustive word of God:




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Joh 21:25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.



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Why do you not hold to His teachings that are passed down from the Apostles by tradition as Scripture itself commands ?

2Th 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.


These traditions are as much the word of God as Scripture. Where does Scripture say that it contains all that Christ taught and commanded ?
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« Reply #246 on: April 01, 2003, 01:58:08 PM »

Cry  NiC doesn't like me. He glossed over, or completely ignored my post to him. I noticed he started doing that in the Church, Bible, tradition thread.

Steve

P.S. Folks, I want to know where what I'm posting stacks up with you all. If I post error then I want to know and also the reason why. It's a learning process...
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« Reply #247 on: April 01, 2003, 03:40:42 PM »

W_C's inquisition continues.

In responce to a post quoting 2 Timothy 3:16, I posted the following:

----
And yet, you continue to deny a large portion of the Scripture which St Paul said is given by the inspiration of God.
----

The post was deleted and I received the following message from the Grand Inquisitor:

----
This is yet another violation of TOS#17 and I fail to understand why you agreed not to violate the terms of service and then turn around and do so on a daily basis. Please stop.
----

TOS #17
Do not make statements either by posts or posting URLs to other Websites which advocate activities, beliefs or teachings contrary to those of Christianity as articulated by the historic creeds, as understood by Evangelicalism, and as interpreted by ChristianBBS.com/Christianity.com its sole discretion.

----

While I am not sure which historic creed is contrary to my post, it seems that crypto-pope Crow's infallible interpretation of that creed denounces the Deuterocanon. Oh well, he has already made it clear that historical facts are of no interest to him or other evangelicals. (paraphrase of WC's own posts).

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« Reply #248 on: April 01, 2003, 03:42:36 PM »

Linus 7<<Now my goal is to imitate my heroes here and rack up enough posts to become a "Patriarch.">>

Go for it, just so long as you don't try to take away my patriarchal territory, Linus!   Wink

Hypo-Ortho  

How many posts do I need to be Patriarch of Disney World? Or does that fall under the EP's Barbarian Lands?
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« Reply #249 on: April 01, 2003, 04:58:20 PM »

Quote
From Keble: And you would do well to remember that not all that appears in the lives of the saints is commendable. Perhaps you should greet these heretics with a right hook, in the manner of St. Nicholas. Polycarp sinned gravely in the example you cite, because he in essence stated that Marcion was not worth saving.

I disagree.

Remember Jesus' own words to Peter when He said to him, "Get thee behind me, Satan!"

Perhaps St. Polycarp was trying to make Marcion realize the extremity of his heresy.

Extending him the right hand of fellowship and calling him "brother" would have only convinced Marcion that his views were somehow "Christian."

Quote
Discussions of "sacraments" versus ordinances stumble across two problems. First, you cannot very well deny that the Eucharist is an ordinance, because we are commanded to do it. And as far as "sacrament" is concerned, only polity evokes as wide a range of opinions. You can find every gradation of opinion on sacraments from strict memorialists to high-and-dry Anglicans who hold a higher theology of the sacrament than you do.

It is impossible to hold a "higher theology" of the "the sacrament" (I assume you mean the Eucharist; there are, after all, many sacraments) than that held by the Orthodox Church.

Opinions are nothing. Only the Apostolic Tradition matters when it comes to the sacraments.

Protestantism is all about opinions. Christianity is about Christ and what He taught.

I do deny that the Eucharist is the mere empty ordinance most Protestants think it is.

Quote
From Keble: I have to say that posting pointers to anti-fundamentalist Catholic tracts in a evangelical- or fundamentalist-dominated forum is an act of aggression. It's more or less a proclamation that you're going to talk down to them and not listen to their replies.

I would say that you should wait until you know what you're talking about before expressing your opinions.

I recommended two books by well-respected Roman Catholic authors to an OP who had already said that he was Roman Catholic and had asked for such recommendations.

Besides that, how is recommending books "talking down" to someone? They do not have to read them if they do not want to.

Am I the only one who seems to recognize in the posts of "Keble" the distinctive style of Abdur?

I thought you had finally become a convinced Muslim. Why the continued visits to an Orthodox Christian forum?

Starting an internet jihad?
« Last Edit: April 01, 2003, 10:06:54 PM by Linus7 » Logged

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« Reply #250 on: April 01, 2003, 05:36:17 PM »

Keble's and uturn's ip's do not match, and I cannot compare them against the three other accounts Abdur has used over time here because he smartly deleted them.  We will have to wait a little while longer to see what happens, and see what Keble has to say.

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« Reply #251 on: April 01, 2003, 08:29:24 PM »

Linus 7<<Now my goal is to imitate my heroes here and rack up enough posts to become a "Patriarch.">>

Go for it, just so long as you don't try to take away my patriarchal territory, Linus!   Wink

Hypo-Ortho  

Thanks, Hypo!

My goal is the Papacy!  Grin
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« Reply #252 on: April 01, 2003, 08:33:51 PM »

Oblio, Gecko, and Monkey -

I do not know how you guys are continuing to post over there. It is just too frustrating for me.

I relished the chance to preach the truth when I was allowed to do so, but now . . .

It is heartbreaking to work for 30 minutes or an hour on a post, typing out Bible references or quoting the Fathers, just to have some Saddam-in-sheep's-clothing come along and delete it.

I sent NiC a PM (from a post of his on the Protestant vs. Catholic Bibles thread) advising him that he will not see me around much anymore:

Dear Mark,

You are not likely to get much debate on any of these issues anymore. CBBS has decided to embark on a strict policy of censorship of any post that does not represent the Evangelical Protestant viewpoint.

You may approve of that policy, I do not know.

Anyway, the field is yours - not fairly won - but it is yours anyway.

CBBS will now become the "mutual admiration society" it was perhaps always meant to be.

I have always respected you, although I suspect that you dislike me personally.

Anyway, you will not see my posts around much anymore.

I wish you well, and may God bless and keep you!

In Christ,

Linus7
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« Reply #253 on: April 01, 2003, 10:26:05 PM »

Oblio, Gecko, and Monkey -

I do not know how you guys are continuing to post over there. It is just too frustrating for me.

Is there such a thing as a cyber-martyr?
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« Reply #254 on: April 01, 2003, 10:36:29 PM »

Oblio, Gecko, and Monkey -

I do not know how you guys are continuing to post over there. It is just too frustrating for me.

Is there such a thing as a cyber-martyr?

LOL!  Grin

Maybe not . . .

But I think we can agree that you are a Cyber-Confessor!

(If not a cyber-masochist!)  Wink
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« Reply #255 on: April 01, 2003, 10:54:34 PM »

Cry  NiC doesn't like me. He glossed over, or completely ignored my post to him. I noticed he started doing that in the Church, Bible, tradition thread.

Steve

P.S. Folks, I want to know where what I'm posting stacks up with you all. If I post error then I want to know and also the reason why. It's a learning process...


He does that, Steve, when he cannot deal with your arguments. You should feel honored.

Have you noticed the use of such "arguments" as an offended piety, platitudes, and plenty of irrelevant Bible passages at such times?

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« Reply #256 on: April 01, 2003, 11:06:03 PM »

Oblio, Gecko, and Monkey -

I do not know how you guys are continuing to post over there. It is just too frustrating for me.

I relished the chance to preach the truth when I was allowed to do so, but now . . .

It is heartbreaking to work for 30 minutes or an hour on a post, typing out Bible references or quoting the Fathers, just to have some Saddam-in-sheep's-clothing come along and delete it.
 

Yes, many times we take 30 minutes or more of our time -vs- the hack, chop and paste method of some. And it is frustrating.

I commonly like to stay one one thread at a time. It's too darn hard to try to keep up with multiples. If you want to just peruse, I'm in the "Baptism that now saves" thread being ignored like Monkey... Cheesy

I'm sorry that you've been treated like that. Still, I'm an unknown at this point. Maybe they'll figure me out.

Actually, looks like NiC ran away so I can't reply to his latest filtering of the truth. Oh well, I guess I'll check out some other threads.

Steve
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« Reply #257 on: April 01, 2003, 11:10:14 PM »

Steve -

I may go back over there sometime and give it another try, but I think wintercrow really has it in for me.

When I stick my head up he chops it off.

I'm surprised that he is letting some of you get away with what you're posting.

Go figure . . .  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #258 on: April 01, 2003, 11:19:53 PM »

Hmmmm ...

Have you tried to PM another moderator about being targeted by WC.  (I can't recall if you brought WC's abuse of mod powers up to Fritz ...) Over at the Protestant board I moderate at, often times there are users & mods that just do not mix for whatever reason (including theology), and we try to work things out through an intermediate 3rd party mod or mods.  We honestly try to be fair, and most of us bow out of moderation if we are involved in the thread, or if we have personal issues with the alleged offender.  There may be a structure like that in place over at CBBS, but I won't hold my breath  Embarrassed
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« Reply #259 on: April 02, 2003, 12:04:23 AM »

Oblio -

I mentioned him to Fritz but got no response.

I think they are trying to shut us down. I think it is just a matter of time before they start going after you big time.

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« Reply #260 on: April 02, 2003, 03:47:30 AM »

It was my turn under the knife it seems.
In response to the following in WC's post in the Annointing with Oil thread:
Quote
Think of it in relation to the other outward symbols of faith that we use, such as baptism, communion and the cross, those are just symbols but they act powerfully upon us. Annointing with oil in addition to prayer has a similar impact.
I had posted the following:
Quote
(sigh) Totally contrary to what the church, as taught by the Apostles, believed. However, since my defending this further would be a TOS violation, I'll leave it at that.
My post was deleted and produced the following PM:
Quote
This post violates TOS#17 in advocating a non-evangelical belief. It has been removed to Review & Hold and a report has been filed with the administration of this website.
Please refrain from such posts.
Thanks

I personally feel that my post was more in violation of TOS#5 than TOS#17 since there was very little substance to it and I guess I was to some extent trolling for a response. I guess I got one.

<edit>changed green color to red as green text looks reeeeally bad in a quote tag</edit>
« Last Edit: April 02, 2003, 07:52:05 AM by prodromos » Logged
Monkey
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« Reply #261 on: April 02, 2003, 09:56:18 AM »

Well, it's official. As of 11:06 last night, I am banished from CBBS. I'm not sure what post did it, but whatever it was, Crow did not like it.

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gecko
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« Reply #262 on: April 02, 2003, 10:20:09 AM »

Well, it's official. As of 11:06 last night, I am banished from CBBS. I'm not sure what post did it, but whatever it was, Crow did not like it.



Huh  That's bad! Was it for TOS #17? I noticed that crow violated that one when he posted a link to an Orthodox website in Australia. The thread was "Protestand vs Catholic bible", page 5.

Here's the link... http://home.it.net.au/~jgrapsas/pages/old_testament.html

If anyone would like to lodge a complaint...  

Steve
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Oblio
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« Reply #263 on: April 02, 2003, 10:23:12 AM »

Pretty sad.

Rather than allow the members of CBBS to see the facts presented and decide for themselves, and because the admins/mods/radical reformists cannot defend the errors of Protestantism, they have chosen to withold the truth of God's Word those who seek the truth.
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gecko
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« Reply #264 on: April 02, 2003, 10:34:31 AM »

My message to the folks at CBBS referencing his "offensive" link in the Protestant vs Catholic bible thread:

It has become quite evident to me, after watching winter_crows activities, that he is unable to moderate the threads in a fair, balanced, and Christian manner. I've noticed an increasing number of TOS #17 violations being levied against individuals on the board for doing exactly what he has done here.

At the least, please edit the post above to remove the link and mark it as violating TOS #17.

v/r
Steve
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Monkey
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« Reply #265 on: April 02, 2003, 10:37:31 AM »

Huh  That's bad! Was it for TOS #17?

I think was TOS 17. I got several PM's from Crow, all citing 17. One claimed my defence of the Deuterocanon violated 17, and this was in the thread "Protestant vs. Catholic Bibles". I emailed Fritz. Seriously, what's the point of that thread, started by the board admin, if one can not defend the Deuterocanon.

Crow also informed me that my interpretation of 1 Peter 3:20-21 ("Baptism now saves us") was also a violation of TOS 17. So, I guess we are free to interpret the Scriptures as long as the our interpretation agrees with theirs. As some other poster "discerned", if I believe that baptism is a means of grace, I must not be baptized with the Holy Spirit, so I can't interpret Scripture. Huh

In another post (my last one) I agreed with the recommendation of a Evangelical poster that people should read Fox's Book of Martyrs.  I then suggested that the reader focus on the first chapter (the martyrdom of the Holy Apostles) and asked how we have this information. Most of it is not in Scripture. I also suggested that the reader focus on those martyred by the Romans and then read the confessions for which these martyrs died. Crow claims that this is also a violation of TOS 17. I guess this post must have been the proverbial straw.

Seems TOS 17 not only covers an Evangelical interpretation of the Scriuptures, but also an Evangelical revision of history. Sad

Maybe it's time to shake some dust and take the show on the road.

Advice?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2003, 10:48:58 AM by Monkey » Logged
demetrios
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« Reply #266 on: April 02, 2003, 11:48:58 AM »

I am new here and it is the first I have heard of this forum. maybe with a clean slate I could head in and try a few things on them. I was born into a protestant family and I know sort of how to deal with these types. so wish me luck Cool
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« Reply #267 on: April 02, 2003, 12:08:35 PM »

tonight I think I will take a try at the idea that was stated on the first page of this thread by creating a thread on the protestant forum of "ask the orthodox christians" just look for it later and if you can try to help me out in there AAAHHH!!! Lips Sealed
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gecko
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« Reply #268 on: April 02, 2003, 12:49:35 PM »

tonight I think I will take a try at the idea that was stated on the first page of this thread by creating a thread on the protestant forum of "ask the orthodox christians" just look for it later and if you can try to help me out in there AAAHHH!!! Lips Sealed

Actually, I think the best thing is to not address your affiliation at all. Things like user name, thread titles, etc., will point you out as "heretical" to them and one to be watched. You won't get very far with that.

May I suggest you go in and just question interpretation of scripture. Oh, and don't use "extra-biblical" sources. To them, history seems to hold no place in accurate understanding of the Bible. After all, no one need know your interpretation is Orthodox in origin.

Steve
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« Reply #269 on: April 02, 2003, 01:23:38 PM »

Monkey -

You actually got banished at CBBS!

Consider yourself blessed by God! It is an honor to be banished by such [edited by Linus7 for possible extreme TOS violation Grin].

Now you can spend your net time here edifying us.

I'll race you for "Patriarch" status!  Wink

(I have a slight head start.)  Cool
« Last Edit: April 02, 2003, 01:35:28 PM by Linus7 » Logged

The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers.
- Pope St. Hormisdas
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