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Author Topic: To the Orthodox Apologists  (Read 42076 times) Average Rating: 0
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Linus7
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« Reply #180 on: March 12, 2003, 11:34:00 AM »

Quote
From Aklie: Surprise, surprise;

Our friend Abdur has found his way right back to Islam againGǪ

How do you know?

Did he announce it somewhere?

Don't mistake me; I am not doubting this. I would just like to see what he has to say.

I have noticed that Abdur's appearances at CBBS have greatly decreased.

May God help and heal his troubled way.

Abdur needs our prayers.
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Aklie Semaet
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« Reply #181 on: March 12, 2003, 02:09:18 PM »

Greetings Linus,


Here are some samples from three different posts that he made on the “perpetual discussion on Mary's Virginity” thread:

Quote
One of my reasons for visiting here was to test the spirits and take a closer look at "generic" Christianity. I didn't expect to find so many Orthodox here, which turned out to be a boon in my favor, sinc I was forced to face certain theological issues.

I think I will always be a Muslim. This is the lesson I have learned during my journey here, especially from the Orthodox participants (in a paradoxical way):

La ilaha il Allah,

Muhammed-ur-Rasool-Allah.

To paraphrase Tolstoy: It is better to be a Muslim than Orthodox.

When some of the Protestants challenged this obviously awkward stance he replied with the following:

Quote
In the name of God, the Beneficent and the Merciful!

By their fruits?

In America alone, thousands of former Christians have embraced Islam.

Is it because they find the fruit of Islam sweeter and more nutritious? Is it because they--especially those who come to Islam from Orthodoxy and Catholicism--long to be liberated from idolatry, superstition, and cultic magic?

Yes, to all of the above.
"Thou shalt not worship other gods before Me!"

His last statement was:

Quote
In the name of God, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

Nur al'din(Light of Faith):

It is better to spend eternity in Allah's hell than eternity in the paradise of the practioners of polytheism and shirk:idolatry.

For the hell of Allah is still His domain. But what is the paradise of the polytheists and practioners of idolatry, other than the kingdom of Shatain, or Satan?

By all means, believe in the Isa (Jesus) of the Injil (Gospel), but denounce polytheism--La ilaha illa Allah: There is no god but God--and idolatry, whether you refer to it as "veneration" or worship: denounce it and renounce it; purge it from your soul, and--God willing and relying upon His mercy--you shall attain paradise.

Salam,

Abdur P. Islamovic

Knowing his tendencies and history I think his statements speak for themselves. May God guide him to the correct path.
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Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #182 on: March 12, 2003, 02:24:15 PM »

Aklie Semaet<<Knowing his tendencies and history I think his statements speak for themselves. May God guide him to the correct path.>>

I would tend to agree, Aklie.  Over the course of time, I've observed many contradictory statements coming out of him.  At one point he was "investigating" a Protestant congregation of former Muslims in Florida.  But you couldn't pin him down on what the outcome of that investigation was.

Hypo-Ortho

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« Reply #183 on: March 12, 2003, 08:08:36 PM »

Sad about Abdur.

But I guess it is good that he has revealed himself for all the Fundies who were thinking he was one of their own.

After reading those quotes of his I feel like a witness to a suicide.
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« Reply #184 on: March 13, 2003, 12:01:25 AM »

I am likewise upset, and hope God steers him to the right path.  It is awkward and sad to see a man advanced in years, as opposed to a seeking young man or college student, making so many hops.

Well, on the bright side, he got the shahadah wrong.

In IC XC
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Aklie Semaet
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« Reply #185 on: March 13, 2003, 12:07:29 AM »

Well, on the bright side, he got the shahadah wrong.

LOL,

He sure did. So does that mean that he is then not really a confirmed Muslim?
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« Reply #186 on: March 13, 2003, 12:09:22 AM »

Well, on the bright side, he got the shahadah wrong.


How about that?  Christians who know fundamentals of the Muslim religion better than Muslims.  Smiley
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« Reply #187 on: March 13, 2003, 12:33:47 AM »

Well I regret to say the error is merely a minor one of pronunciation.  But we might as well start a thread pondering over whether online shahadas are technically binding.  Smiley  Muslim clerics are welcome to join.

In IC XC
Samer

P.S. Then again after reading it over again, it might not be so minor a mistake after all.  In this form, the Shahada could read, "Muhammad the Messenger (is) God."

Poets reciting at the caliph's court were probably prone to remarking how a single letter could spell either small riches in reward, or death and execution.  A single syllable can change the entire meaning of a sentence.
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« Reply #188 on: March 27, 2003, 10:00:12 AM »

To all:

I am afraid that Dean Wermer has dropped the bomb over on CBBS.  It appears that we are on Double Secret Probation.  I am starting to think it is time to shake the dust ...  We need to pray for those over there, especially Lavis Knight, who was showing signs of hearing the truth that we tried to bring to the community.

Quote

It has come to my attention that a number of individuals have been forcefully promoting their religion that opposes evangelical Christianity.

These individuals are intelligent enough to know who they are... be warned that this is a evangelical Christian website and we do have rules that you agreed to abide by when you logged into our Forums.

Forcefully promoting a religion that opposes evangelical Christianity is a violation of the Terms of Service and should be kept in check.

The Terms of Service will be enforced.

Fred "Fritz" Alberti
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« Reply #189 on: March 27, 2003, 01:00:21 PM »

Someone should reply that

1) So it is ok for evangelicals to bash Orthodox, but Orthodox can't respond??

and

2) If you name your site christianity.com, you need to be open to all Christians.

anastasios
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« Reply #190 on: March 27, 2003, 01:27:40 PM »

2) If you name your site christianity.com, you need to be open to all Christians.

We're Christians?

Ohh......

In IC XC
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« Reply #191 on: March 27, 2003, 02:20:58 PM »

To all:

I am afraid that Dean Wermer has dropped the bomb over on CBBS.  It appears that we are on Double Secret Probation.  I am starting to think it is time to shake the dust ...  We need to pray for those over there, especially Lavis Knight, who was showing signs of hearing the truth that we tried to bring to the community.

Quote

It has come to my attention that a number of individuals have been forcefully promoting their religion that opposes evangelical Christianity.

These individuals are intelligent enough to know who they are... be warned that this is a evangelical Christian website and we do have rules that you agreed to abide by when you logged into our Forums.

Forcefully promoting a religion that opposes evangelical Christianity is a violation of the Terms of Service and should be kept in check.

The Terms of Service will be enforced.

Fred "Fritz" Alberti
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Just pass out the rest of your suppositories and move on. You have more than made your point.
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« Reply #192 on: March 27, 2003, 08:22:54 PM »

I guess that site should change its name to protestant christianity.com. So one cannot have an honest dialogue about Christianity?  That if one opposes evangelicalism, then it is bad?  I think the people who started the site are not secure their beliefs.  I mean if you claim your evangelical christianity to be the truth, then why would you be afraid or intimidated by someone who opposes you? I do not understand this.
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« Reply #193 on: March 27, 2003, 10:26:57 PM »

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I mean if you claim your evangelical christianity to be the truth, then why would you be afraid or intimidated by someone who opposes you? I do not understand this.  

Because innocent Christians (like myself) are being duped into the lies of Orthodoxy. Smiley

My classes are going well. In a little less than two months, I'll be able to call myself Orthodox.  The sad thing is, having grown up with and been inured with Protestant beliefs, it'll probably take a lot of retraining before I feel Orthodox enough. Smiley
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« Reply #194 on: March 27, 2003, 10:47:01 PM »

Dear Sapiens,

Even those of us who have been Orthodox from the cradle have to continually work at it in order to truly be Orthodox.  The important thing is that you're going to go for it.  Welcome home!
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« Reply #195 on: March 27, 2003, 11:05:53 PM »

Dear Sapiens,

Even those of us who have been Orthodox from the cradle have to continually work at it in order to truly be Orthodox.  The important thing is that you're going to go for it.  Welcome home!  

Excellent point Mor.  No matter who you are, you must work at it.  Orthodoxy defines who are and is a way of life.
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« Reply #196 on: March 27, 2003, 11:48:44 PM »

Because innocent Christians (like myself) are being duped into the lies of Orthodoxy. Smiley

My classes are going well. In a little less than two months, I'll be able to call myself Orthodox.  The sad thing is, having grown up with and been inured with Protestant beliefs, it'll probably take a lot of retraining before I feel Orthodox enough. Smiley

I'm right there with you, Sapiens.
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« Reply #197 on: March 28, 2003, 03:47:52 AM »


In the words of that great ascetic
"You must unlearn what you have learned."
 Wink

John.
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« Reply #198 on: March 28, 2003, 06:53:56 AM »

Whew, I've just been noticing the crackdown. Both Monkey and Linus have had some of their posts edited by moderators for violating TOS

We will have to start responding with things like:

   I would answer your question but it would violate TOS#nn

They really don't like seeing their foundations shaken do they. Simple solution for protecting houses built on a foundation of sand, make floods illegal.

John.
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« Reply #199 on: March 28, 2003, 08:50:17 AM »

The following is a private message I received from a CBBS mod:

 Quote
---------------
 
Even if that confession is historically inaccurate?

--------
 


Your response in this thread was a violation of TOS#17, specifically:


---------
 Quote
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Do not make statements either by posts or posting URLs to other Websites which advocate activities, beliefs or teachings contrary to those of Christianity as articulated by the historic creeds, as understood by Evangelicalism, and as interpreted by ChristianBBS.com/Christianity.com its sole discretion.

----------


I would encourage you to cease your attacks on evangelicalism and the beliefs of this website. Failure to do so will result in further action being taken against you.
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« Reply #200 on: March 28, 2003, 09:34:25 AM »

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Whew, I've just been noticing the crackdown. Both Monkey and Linus have had some of their posts edited by moderators for violating TOS

: sniff :

I had an entire post deleted simply because I posted a link to the online Jordanville Prayerbook and asked God to be Lavis on his journey ...  A clear violation of the TOS  Roll Eyes

They have also started to close threads on a whim ...


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« Reply #201 on: March 28, 2003, 09:57:38 AM »

In anticipation of our banishment, I have extended invitations to Bro_Gecko and Lavis to investigate this site. Both have expressed interest in Orthodoxy.

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« Reply #202 on: March 28, 2003, 10:13:17 AM »

Did you get a response? They may be monitoring our PM's for TOS violations  Wink

John

Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they are not out to get me.
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« Reply #203 on: March 28, 2003, 11:05:22 AM »

Have any of you gone to the chat room? I know Lavis knight goes there quite a bit.
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« Reply #204 on: March 28, 2003, 11:17:09 AM »

Did you get a response? They may be monitoring our PM's for TOS violations  Wink

Not yet, but it hasn't been that long.
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« Reply #205 on: March 28, 2003, 03:39:54 PM »

Since (not that I know of) I haven't gotten one of thos threatening pm or edits yet, what has changed?  Did they change the TOS's recently?  I never read them to begin with.  What are the diffs?
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« Reply #206 on: March 28, 2003, 04:00:57 PM »

They have always had a TOS banning the promotion of religions/doctrines opposed to Evangelicalism. They have not always enforced it.

It seems things changed because of the "Where Were the Evangelicals?" thread. After an open challenge to offer any evidence of a pre-Reformation Evangelical, they started clamping down.  

Part of it may be that some of the vocal anti-Catholics/Orthodox have not posted as much recently. There hasn't been much to balance us.

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« Reply #207 on: March 28, 2003, 04:13:19 PM »

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Part of it may be that some of the vocal anti-Catholics/Orthodox have not posted as much recently. There hasn't been much to balance us.

Not to fear ... berean showed up today on the Praying to Saints & Mary thread.  He learned a new word, we are now an Occultic Church  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #208 on: March 28, 2003, 05:36:20 PM »

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Quote from: Oblio Not to fear ... berean showed up today on the Praying to Saints & Mary thread.  He learned a new word, we are now an Occultic Church  Roll Eyes

[/quote

That's funny.  Sad, but funny.

It's only speculation, but I think that maybe they are more likely to clamp down when someone says "...that's why The Orthdox Church is the true Church (even though we of course know it is)..." as opposed to maybe concluding your argument with for example, "...studying this [insert topic] leads me to believe that the Easter Orthodox Church adheres closest to the ancient Faith."  Or maybe just omitting your conclusion entirely.  I'm only speculating this since I think that it would make me get defensive if I were a Protestant.  You say things to get them to think, but not to put them off or sound you know it all and they're just inferior.  Even though he's not Orthodox, Lavis does this well w/o offending anyone.
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« Reply #209 on: March 28, 2003, 06:45:31 PM »

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Christianity as articulated by the historic creeds, as understood by Evangelicalism

And what are those and how does ChristianBBS.com/Christianity.com ‘understand them?’ I’ll put a buck on it that they don’t have any consistent answer or position.

Historic Creeds of Protestantism:

1)   Veneration of Mary
2)   Real Presence in the Eucharist

Does ChristianBBS.com hold to these creeds? Then it does not hold to the articulated historic creeds of Evangelicalism.  

See how Protestants react with confronted by Orthodox who knows their stuff. They buckle up and start running like a bunch of puppies with their tails between their legs. They could not respond with consistent, clear and convincing commentary so they resort to censorship.

They quickly run to Orthodox countries suffering from economic difficulty, poorly catechized and therefore vulnerable people and engage in the most horrendous proselytization against Orthodox followers. They bribe, promise broke people visas to western countries, set up corporate style PR campaigns (with some hard American currency) that no one can compete with. They are dead set on breaking the Orthodox Church and converting all of her followers.

But here, in America, it is different. Most of the Orthodox are converts and are thusly well catechized. Nobody cares about the conversion bribes and money because we already live here. So the playing field is leveled and Evangelicals cannot defend their system against Apostolic Tradition at face value. So they resort to other means.

That kind of contradictory arrogance is irritating to the nth degree. While it goes against my usual stance I am starting to see the value of the Russian and Eritrean positions. Just recently Eritrea banned ‘cults’ originating from missionaries. That would include most of the dominations dominant on ChristianBBS.com. They said that there is to only be Orthodoxy, Catholicism (both Roman and Eastern), mainline Protestants (Anglican, Lutheran and Presbyterian) and Islam allowed to spread in Eritrea. No more confusing new comers with their confusing instant burger salvation message, no more evangelical frenzy whipping. Maybe they are on to something. If we have to get banned from websites then maybe they should be banned from countries, they are of no use there anyway.    

Quote
"...that's why The Orthdox Church is the true Church (even though we of course know it is)..." as opposed to maybe concluding your argument with for example, "...studying this [insert topic] leads me to believe that the Easter Orthodox Church adheres closest to the ancient Faith."

Heck no, don’t make that kind of compromise. Remember Orthodoxy being the ‘true’ Church or not is not something that we initially advanced. It was framed that way in a question by New in Christ and we kept responding. But it is fruitless to have a debate on if Orthodoxy is the ‘true’ Church or not or ‘which Church is the real Church.’ The Orthodox Church is just the Church that the Apostles established, call it what you want ‘real,’ ‘true’ or whatever but that is what it is, we call it Yetint Yetewatu, best translated as ancient and authentic, ‘original.’ There can be no ‘true’ Church in Christianity because there is no false Church. There is only the Church, deposit of the faith once and for all delivered to the saints. Denomination is a non-concept and a non-term in Apostolic Christianity. You are either in the Church or you are not. There is no ‘true’ Church.

Now is just the time to correspond, via private mail, with people that are interested in Orthodoxy. Occasionally correct outlandish and incorrect statements by Evangelicals as they may appear on the forum, but don’t bother engaging in long polemics. I have seen cliquish moves like this before and it is not going to stop, they days of Orthodoxy on that board are numbered so start wrapping things up.

In Christ,

A. Semaet
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« Reply #210 on: March 28, 2003, 07:05:17 PM »

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"...that's why The Orthdox Church is the true Church (even though we of course know it is)..." as opposed to maybe concluding your argument with for example, "...studying this [insert topic] leads me to believe that the Easter Orthodox Church adheres closest to the ancient Faith."

Aklie,
I don't mean this as a compromise, but as a way to get the message to the non-Orthodox.  When you say that "my church is the true church and your's sucks", the person you're telling it to just isn't going to list to a d*mn thing you tell them.  For, example, I don't think Fr. Seraphim Rose compromises anything in his short booklet on "God's Revelation to the Human Heart.", but he doesn't flat out say "the Orthodox Church is the True Churhch and the multitudes of Protestant denominations are wrong."  What someone means to say and how they actually come across to an audience are frequently two different things.
 


Now is just the time to correspond, via private mail, with people that are interested in Orthodoxy. Occasionally correct outlandish and incorrect statements by Evangelicals as they may appear on the forum, but don’t bother engaging in long polemics. I have seen cliquish moves like this before and it is not going to stop, they days of Orthodoxy on that board are numbered so start wrapping things up.

I'm pretty much in agreeance.  I'd go further and say that the days (if not hours) are very shortly numbered.
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« Reply #211 on: March 28, 2003, 11:17:30 PM »

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From Elisha:
Aklie,
I don't mean this as a compromise, but as a way to get the message to the non-Orthodox.  When you say that "my church is the true church and your's sucks", the person you're telling it to just isn't going to list to a d*mn thing you tell them.  For, example, I don't think Fr. Seraphim Rose compromises anything in his short booklet on "God's Revelation to the Human Heart.", but he doesn't flat out say "the Orthodox Church is the True Churhch and the multitudes of Protestant denominations are wrong."  What someone means to say and how they actually come across to an audience are frequently two different things.

I believe you are wrong here.

For one thing, no one posted anything even remotely like "my church is the true church and yours sucks."

Nor were there any gratuitous or frequent, pushy assertions made about the Orthodox Church.

When I first began posting over at "Protestants R Us," anyone could view a member's profile and see to what denomination or church they belong. The issue came up and I gave the honest answer: the Holy Orthodox Church is the original, one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

As a result, some were offended. Others, however, suddenly knew where I stood and why I was posting the things I was posting. Consequently, a number of people expressed interest in Orthodoxy, and a few have even converted.

What is the alternative?

Most of our arguments assert the truth of the Apostolic Tradition as opposed to the very limited and relatively recent (16th century) traditions of Protestantism. In this, our arguments strongly resemble those of the Roman Catholics.

Were we to totally avoid mention of the Orthodox Church, the force of our arguments would lead seekers STRAIGHT TO ROME.

Is that what we want?

Most Protestants are familiar only with the Roman Catholic alternative. They know little or nothing about Orthodoxy.

Once we have knocked the very pillars of Protestantism - Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide - out from under them, they may begin looking for the historic faith.

What "historic faith" are they going to find if the only one they know about is the RCC?

To ask us to discuss the concept of authority in Christianity without being able to mention the Orthodox Church is like asking someone to go on living without a heart.

There is no Christianity without the Orthodox Church.

If the heretics (and that IS what they are, friends) over at "Protestants R Us" want to ban us, so be it. The devil has been trying to shut us up for about 2000 years.

He will fail, as he always has.

Meanwhile let us look upon this as an honor. We have been having an effect, so we are being persecuted.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
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« Reply #212 on: March 29, 2003, 12:59:08 AM »

Linus (and Aklie),

You really misunderstand what I'm trying to say.  Fr. Seraphim Rose's style is an example.  When dealing with foaming-at-the-mouth Protestants, you can't just be completely blunt and forceful back.  They'll become instantly defensive and completely blind to anything you have to say.  Subtley and tact are needed to make them re-think their presuppositions.  I'm completely aware that all the Protestants their think anything before the Reformation points to Rome and are extremely and ignorantly biased againts Rome.  You need to spoon feed information to them.  They need to see and research it themselves to believe it.  I freely admit that my writing ability sucks and that's I let you guys do it Grin.  It's a shame that CBBS is turning against us thought - a bunch of fools they are.  God help us all.
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« Reply #213 on: March 29, 2003, 01:23:17 AM »

Understood.

I tried some of that approach, but sometimes the situation simply forced the complete truth out of me.

I have noticed in my time at CBBS that many of the old contributors have moved on or been run off.

There used to be a contingent of atheists/agnostics, as well as some young and goofy pagans who visited that site. They were run off, too.

There was at one time an old guy from Texas who called himself "Baptist" (surprise!). He complained loudly that there was too much controversy at CBBS, but at the time the moderators didn't seem to notice.

Now they are evidently listening to such whining.

It is pretty obvious that Protestants cannot defend their doctrines in open debate. They generally resort to name-calling pretty early on.

Now they have resorted to censorship.

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« Reply #214 on: March 29, 2003, 06:54:31 PM »

This is something that was on a newsgroup sometime back that I find good to remember:

SAINT SILOUAN
THE ATHONITE, by Archimandrite Sophrony, published in 1991 by the
Monastery of St. John the Baptist in Tolleshunt Knights, Maldon,
Essex, England, pp. 62-65.


"I remember a conversation [Father Silouan] had with a certain
Archimandrite who was engaged in missionary work. This Archimandrite
thought highly of the Staretz and many a time went to see him during
his visits to the Holy Mountain. The Staretz asked him what sort of
sermons he preached to people. The Archimandrite, who was still young
and inexperienced, gesticulated with his hands and swayed his whole
body, and replied excitedly,
        "I tell them, 'Your faith is all wrong, perverted. There is
nothing right, and if you don't repent, there will be no salvation for
you.'"
        The Staretz heard him out, then asked, "Tell me, Father
Archimandrite, do they believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, that He is
the true God?"
        "Yes, that they do believe."
        "And do they revere the Mother of God?"
        "Yes, but they are not taught properly about her."
        "And what of the Saints?"
        "Yes, they honour them, but since they have fallen away from
the Church, what saints can they have?"
        "Do they celebrate the Divine Office in their churches? Do
they read the Gospels?"
        "Yes, they do have churches and services but if you were to
compare their services with ours ? how cold and lifeless theirs are!"
        "Father Archimandrite, people feel in their souls when they
are doing the proper thing, believing in Jesus Christ, revering the
Mother of God and the Saints, whom they call upon in prayer, so if you
condemn their faith they will not listen to you... But if you were to
confirm that they were doing well to believe in God and honour the
Mother of God and the Saints; that they are right to go to church, and
say their prayers at home, read the Divine word, and so on; and then
gently point out their mistakes and show them what they ought to
amend, then they would listen to you, and the Lord would rejoice over
them. And this way by God's mercy we shall all find salvation... God
is love, and therefore the preaching of His word must always proceed
from love. Then both preacher and listener will profit. But if you do
nothing but condemn, the soul of the people will not heed you, and no
good will come of it."

Ebor

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« Reply #215 on: March 29, 2003, 09:17:26 PM »

Ebor -

Very good advice from St. Silouan, but the Archimandrite was very evidently not dealing with Protestants.

Since when have they begun to revere the Mother of God and the saints?

They refer to the Eucharist as the "Lord's Supper," call it an "ordinance" rather than a sacrament, and strip it of all but merely symbolic significance.

I and the other Orthodox posters over at Protestants R Us have never ranted at those with whom we disagree, nor have we condemned them.

We deal with their erroneous beliefs and oppose them from Scripture and Holy Tradition. For many of them this has been a painful experience, it is true, but a liberating one.

Since you supplied some good advice from St. Silouan, I will supply an example from the life of St. Polycarp, who was dealing with someone a little more extreme than those to whom Silouan's Archimandrite was preaching:

On his visit to Rome Polycarp met the heretic Marcion, who called on Polycarp to recognize him, to which Polycarp replied, "I recognize, I recognize, the first-born of Satan." (From Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, quoted in Penguin Books' Early Christian Writings, p. 115).

I think the difference between St. Silouan's advice and what Polycarp had to say to Marcion is that evidently Silouan's Archimandrite was dealing with some folks who were essentially Orthodox (maybe Roman Catholics?), and Polycarp was dealing with a genuine soul-endangering heretic.

Obviously it would not do any good to call Fundamentalist Protestants "sons of Satan."

But it might be good to recall that many of the Fathers of the Church were not as easy-going as we are today.


« Last Edit: March 29, 2003, 09:22:57 PM by Linus7 » Logged

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« Reply #216 on: March 29, 2003, 10:02:31 PM »

I don't think it's evident at all that the archimandrite wasn't dealing with "Protestants".  They could have been Lutheran, or Anglican or some other variety.  If you are going by the persons at the other forum, they are not the sum total of Protestantism.  You would get different reactions from people in other churches/fora; they are not all alike. Revering St. Mary the Virgin may mean to them respecting her as Jesus' mother.  Using "Lord's Supper" vs. Eucharist may just be a naming custom.  I don't know.  There are plenty of "Protestant's" who hold to more then symbolism in it.

No, it wouldn't help to call people "Sons of Satan".  St. Polycarp could get away with it, but he was also addressing the leader not some ordinary member. Would he have been so harsh with them?  I'm no Polycarp either, so I try to remember St. Silouns gentleness (not easygoing) and courtesy to other human souls.

Ebor
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« Reply #217 on: March 29, 2003, 10:32:38 PM »

Ebor -

I agree with you about the necessity for kindness.

But I disagree that Silouan's Archimandrite was dealing with Protestants, except for the extremely remote possibility that he was dealing with high-church Anglicans.

In general, except for high-church Anglicans, there are NO Protestants who revere the Mother of God or the saints.

Except for some Anglicans and the Lutherans, the vast majority of Protestants absolutely deny the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

Reformed/Presbyterians believe Christ is "spiritually present" in the Eucharist and that one receives grace thereby, but they deny the essential transformation that is the heart of the Christian eucharistic doctrine.

Those sects that descend from the Radical Reformation make denial of the Real Presence a point of faith and condemn those who believe in it as "idolaters."

Protestantism is a dangerous and deceptive heresy that elevates the individual and his private opinions above the authority of Christ's Church.

It has split western Christendom asunder into a multitude of conflicting sects whose members would have trouble agreeing on the color of grass.

Some of those sects even deny the very deity of Christ, and the modernists deny almost everything essentially Christian.

Perhaps very conservative Anglicans, being nearly Roman Catholic, are the exceptions to all this, and such exceptions should be recognized. But an Anglican of that type is not going to be mounting the same sorts of arguments and doing the sorts of things that other, more extreme, Protestants do.

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« Reply #218 on: March 30, 2003, 01:05:07 AM »

Hullo friends,

OK, so I'm nibbling. Don't be suprised if the hook comes back clean. Wink

Seriously, I appreciate much of your work at the "other" place. I like what Staretz had to say. Amazing how that works. Just like St. Paul; first praise for what is done right and then correct that which is not. You have to first "know" the one you're talking to in order to do that. Something I really need to work on.

I remember, many years ago, the process of joining the Air Force. Going to "boot camp" is a process of tearing down one's individualism and building up a unity with those who are in it with you. It would seem that there is more tearing going on in my life. Can't ever get away from it.

Still, God is gracious and merciful. Linus, thanks for praying.

Humbly,
Steve
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« Reply #219 on: March 30, 2003, 01:15:30 AM »

Hey, Steve!

Man, I'm glad you're here!

I guess you have seen what is going over at CBBS?

Any comments on it?

I hope the hook does not come back clean! We need you up on board the ark of the Orthodox Church.

Please don't just nibble. Get involved in the discussions here and stick around.

I appreciate your prayers, too.
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« Reply #220 on: March 30, 2003, 03:45:30 PM »

I guess you have seen what is going over at CBBS?

Any comments on it?
--------------------
Hmmm. Any comments? Mostly opinion and y'all know what they're worth.Wink Non-the-less:

My views do not necessarily reflect anyone elses views, etc., etc....

  • Sad Observation 1: Only the rare member of those I've talked with are seeking. They're embedded in their own world/god/religious view (I used a lower case for a reason) and simply want to "test" their suppositions on others. They cannot fathom that God is wanting them to come into all truth because they aren't willing to accept that they simply don't know it all. Or they believe that the "truth" that they do know is sufficient (sola etc.)If we, in our walking in the Way, don't continue to seek we will soon end up on the broad road.

  • Sad Observation 2: Those who don't wish to seek surely don't want to hear a different view that tears at their beliefs. That will force them to take another look at the religion they've been in and, ultimately, the only conclusion they'll come up with will be that they've been duped. And nobody likes being duped.
  • Sad Observation 3: Safety in numbers and anonimity. It's amazing how the CBBS fosters a lack of fellowship and family. Conversely, it supports the opposite unless, of course, you strictly adhere to their mind set.
Quote
I hope the hook does not come back clean! We need you up on board the ark of the Orthodox Church.
-------------------
Ya know, if you use a fly you never have to re-bait the hook.  Cool

I can't say that you "need me on the ark" but that "I need the Father and His grace through Christ Jesus". Obviously, where that leads is where it leads. In a song by Rich Mullins called "Creed", he said:

"And I believe what I believe is what makes me what I am
I did not make it, no it is making me
It is the very truth of God and not the invention of any man"


How arrogant to say that I can be the maker of my beliefs or any such thing. "Faith comes by hearing, hearing by the Word of God..." I'm listening, Lord.

Quote
Please don't just nibble. Get involved in the discussions here and stick around.

I appreciate your prayers, too.

----------------
You know me better than that I hope.  Wink

Message only modified to fix problem with quotes.--anastasios
« Last Edit: March 30, 2003, 03:51:58 PM by anastasios » Logged
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« Reply #221 on: March 30, 2003, 08:37:26 PM »

Steve -

I think your observations are very astute.

In a way I am glad about what has happened over at "Protestants R Us."

I was getting tired of beating my head against the brick wall over there, and the prolonged contact with heresy was wearing me down and making me feel kind of spiritually sick.

The Divine Liturgy each Sunday was my anti-venom.

Now I understand the master heresiarch (Berean53) is back at CBBS and in fine form, referring to all apostolic Christians as "cultists" and "idolaters," etc.

With the new constraints that have been imposed over there, it is now next to impossible to deal with people like him. Our deleted posts would only make him look good and make others think we had resorted to swearing and were being censored for that reason.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2003, 08:39:22 PM by Linus7 » Logged

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« Reply #222 on: March 30, 2003, 09:56:18 PM »

A news flash from the front:

A moderator over at "Protestants R Us" has officially declared that it is okay to criticize the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches, but that RCs and Orthodox are only allowed to "clarify their perspective" in response and must not criticize Evangelical Protestant beliefs.

This statement came in response to a post by a Roman Catholic complaining of the extremely offensive comments of a Fundamentalist.

This is just more evidence that Evangelical Protestants are not competent to defend their beliefs in open debate and must resort to censorship.


« Last Edit: March 30, 2003, 09:57:30 PM by Linus7 » Logged

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« Reply #223 on: March 30, 2003, 11:03:19 PM »

Well, I understand why the folks over at CBBS have begun censoring our posts.

They cannot defeat us in open debate.

They regard us as apostate "sheep stealers."

Their loss.

Now my goal is to imitate my heroes here and rack up enough posts to become a "Patriarch."  Grin
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- Pope St. Hormisdas
Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #224 on: March 30, 2003, 11:22:17 PM »

Linus 7<<Now my goal is to imitate my heroes here and rack up enough posts to become a "Patriarch.">>

Go for it, just so long as you don't try to take away my patriarchal territory, Linus!   Wink

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