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Author Topic: To the Orthodox Apologists  (Read 43951 times) Average Rating: 0
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Monkey
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« Reply #135 on: February 25, 2003, 12:53:46 PM »

The forums over at CBBS have been down for the last few hours. I'd just spent half an hour typing up a response to berean only to lose it all when my post went to /dev/null

I've taken to typing replies in my handy text editor, and the copying and pasting them into the web browser. Since I started doing this, the hair on the top of my head has started to grow back.
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Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #136 on: February 25, 2003, 12:57:23 PM »

Monkey<< Since I started doing this, the hair on the top of my head has started to grow back. >>

A monkey with hair growing on the back of its head?  GROSS!!! Cheesy

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« Reply #137 on: February 25, 2003, 01:40:39 PM »

Quote
From Prodromos: Linus, I don't want to disparage the OSB as I have not read it myself, but I have heard a lot of unfavorable comments from a number of people especially regarding the study notes which in some places are outright incorrect.

I've only seen one incorrect note. That is the one which states that the early Church sometimes baptized in Jesus' name and not in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I think the error was based on a misunderstanding of Acts 2:38.

There may be some other errors, but I have not noticed them.

Monkey -

I think my hair has been getting steadily grayer since I started over at CBBS.

Funny thing is, when I first found CBBS, I went there merely to post an announcement to see if anyone living in my area was interested in starting up a new Church.

I got no takers, so I began perusing the debate forums.

The rest is the usual sad story: social posting at first, followed by a growing dependence, and culminating in a terrible addiction.  Wink

Frankly, lately I have experienced a real weariness when I read the stuff over at CBBS. It has gotten so that now I must force myself to come up with responses.

I keep thinking, why the same stuff over and over and over again?

Haven't we been through this before?

You know - "You worship idols!"  "Faith alone!"  "The Rapture!"

Aaarrrggghhh!!!

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« Reply #138 on: February 25, 2003, 01:49:36 PM »

I know the feeling Linus.

We must remember that the most fertile field was once made of barren rock.  A single drop of rain falls off a stone, but many drops, over time, cause the rock to yield.

P.S. - I've got a new PC at home now.  I'll be at St. Silouan Retreat Fri-Mon to take a break from the world  (including the Net) Smiley
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« Reply #139 on: February 25, 2003, 01:49:58 PM »

The forums over at CBBS have been down for the last few hours. I'd just spent half an hour typing up a response to berean only to lose it all when my post went to /dev/null Angry

Linus, I don't want to disparage the OSB as I have not read it myself, but I have heard a lot of unfavorable comments from a number of people especially regarding the study notes which in some places are outright incorrect. When I have some loose change to spare I am going to get the two volumes mentioned by Orthodoc and I'll be lining up outside the publishers in 2005 when the LXX comes out Wink. I just hope they do a better job of the study notes this time around.

John.

On inaddequacies of the OSB:

Keep in mind that the authors of the OSB are converts that have only been Orthodox since '87 (I know - I grew up with them and have been Orthodox the same length of time).  They have a lot of zeal, but did a lot of unfortunate things out of ignorance in those early 'Orthodox' and Orthodox years (if you get my drift).  I'm sure they'll do alot better with the LXX.  I hope they revise the NT as well sometime soon.
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« Reply #140 on: February 25, 2003, 01:56:12 PM »

I think we've upset berean.  He is officailly putting his fingers in his ears while continuing to scream his Gospel message.

Thus saith berean on CBBS ...
Quote
Every post where I give solid information and eviedence that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the RCC and Orthodox churches do more than ask dead saints to pray for them it is completely ignored.

From no on I will only answer questions I choose to answer.

I will no longer respond to people who's only refutation of the evidence is "here we go again with Berean creating a straw man to beat up or a windmill to joust."

I will post and you can respond but you may or may not get a response from me. I am not interested in discussing issues in this manner.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2003, 01:57:37 PM by Oblio » Logged
Linus7
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« Reply #141 on: February 25, 2003, 04:52:33 PM »

Quote
From Oblio: I think we've upset berean.  He is officailly putting his fingers in his ears while continuing to scream his Gospel message.

Thus saith berean on CBBS ...

Quote:
Every post where I give solid information and eviedence that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the RCC and Orthodox churches do more than ask dead saints to pray for them it is completely ignored.

From no on I will only answer questions I choose to answer.

I will no longer respond to people who's only refutation of the evidence is "here we go again with Berean creating a straw man to beat up or a windmill to joust."

I will post and you can respond but you may or may not get a response from me. I am not interested in discussing issues in this manner.

What's changed?

He has ALWAYS only answered questions he felt were to his advantage.

Honestly, most of the time I ignore Berean. I glance over his stuff, but it's all the same: concatenated lists of Scripture verses that do NOT mean what he wants them to mean, bald assertions, and name-calling.

Why read his posts? They are a waste of time. Besides that, they are usually too long.

What is good about them is that they make him and those like him look really bad.

The Fundies like him, but I think everyone else sees him as he really is.

The contrast has been great for the Orthodox Church.

Berean wins more converts for her than we do!  Grin
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Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #142 on: February 25, 2003, 05:01:07 PM »

Linus7<<Why read his posts? They are a waste of time. Besides that, they are usually too long.
What is good about them is that they make him and those like him look really bad.
The Fundies like him, but I think everyone else sees him as he really is.
The contrast has been great for the Orthodox Church.
Berean wins more converts for her than we do!>>

Glory to God for all things!  In the end, it is God who moves the converts to us--we are but the vessels or instruments of His saving power.

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« Reply #143 on: February 25, 2003, 05:15:05 PM »

Quote
He has ALWAYS only answered questions he felt were to his advantage.

:WHOOSH:
:Slaps forhead:

Quote
I am not interested in discussing issues ...

You are quite right Linus.  He just confirmed what we knew all along was his methodology.  I really should have seen his post as that !



 

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« Reply #144 on: February 25, 2003, 05:59:19 PM »

I know the feeling Linus.

We must remember that the most fertile field was once made of barren rock.  A single drop of rain falls off a stone, but many drops, over time, cause the rock to yield.

P.S. - I've got a new PC at home now.  I'll be at St. Silouan Retreat Fri-Mon to take a break from the world  (including the Net) Smiley  

Oblio, I hope you have a rewarding time at St. Silouan's this weekend.  Fr. John Breck is an incredible servant of Christ.  Are you planning to worship with Holy Ascention Mission in Mt. Pleasant as well or to stay at St. Silouan's the entire time?
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« Reply #145 on: February 25, 2003, 06:17:48 PM »

Indeed ! Fr. John is such a blessing.  

Fr. John has helped get our Mission (St. Innocent - Macon) up and running in the past before we were blessed to have our current full time Priest (Hmk. Innokenty) who replaced Fr. Thomas Moore who is now in Columbia SC.

My Wife and I have spent one other weekend at St. Silouan and celebrated his feast at the Retreat with the Holy Ascension Mission and attended Liturgy in Mt. Pleasant that weekend.  We hope to make it there again to receive Holy Communion with our new friends Smiley
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« Reply #146 on: February 25, 2003, 08:18:30 PM »

Oblio -

I am envious. May God bless you at St. Silouan's.

We are lucky here if we can mush out of the snow barricading our house to make it to the grocery store.

In fact, if it had not been for some friends of ours who came down from Johnstown, PA, this last weekend, we would not have made it to Divine Liturgy on Sunday. As of Sunday I had not yet been able to dig my car out of the snow (we got about 1 meter in the last storm and already had a few inches on the ground when that came).

We had a big 10th anniversary celebration for our church this past Sunday. The Bishop was down, and a good friend of mine was ordained a priest. It was a wonderful time.

It's funny you should mention St. Silouan. The friends who came and stayed with us have a two-month-old baby boy. His name is Isaac Silouan Baker. His Dad is a seminarian at Christ the Savior Seminary in Johnstown, Pennsylvania.
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« Reply #147 on: February 25, 2003, 10:05:47 PM »

His Dad is a seminarian at Christ the Savior Seminary in Johnstown, Pennsylvania.

What's that?  Never heard of it.  I know about St. Tikhon's in South Caanan and there Antiochian Villiage in Ligonier, but not this place.  Different jurisdiction?  I know at least 3 seminarians at St. Tikhon's.
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« Reply #148 on: February 25, 2003, 10:55:10 PM »

Elisha -

Christ the Savior is the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Seminary in Johnstown, PA, under Metropolitan Nicholas of Amissos (a great guy, by the way).

I hope to take some classes there myself, but it is a three-hour commute for me.
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« Reply #149 on: February 26, 2003, 12:30:55 AM »

Indeed ! Fr. John is such a blessing.  

Fr. John has helped get our Mission (St. Innocent - Macon) up and running in the past before we were blessed to have our current full time Priest (Hmk. Innokenty) who replaced Fr. Thomas Moore who is now in Columbia SC.

My Wife and I have spent one other weekend at St. Silouan and celebrated his feast at the Retreat with the Holy Ascension Mission and attended Liturgy in Mt. Pleasant that weekend.  We hope to make it there again to receive Holy Communion with our new friends Smiley  

Wow, I didn't realize you were in Macon.  I'm pretty familiar with both St. Mary of Egypt in Atlanta(both Fr. Peter and Mother Terri Smith's attended our parish for several years) and the new St. Timothy Mission in Toccoa(we have a close relationship with them as our priest Fr. Marcus serves there often and is their spiritual father until they get a full time priest), but I know virtually nothing of St Innocent's in Macon.  Perhaps I can visit sometime.  

If you're ever in the area, come by St. John of the Ladder Orthodox Church in Greenville SC.  www.stjohnoftheladder.org  With Bobby being in Raliegh, we're going to have to have a Southeast OC.net get together at some point.  Maybe pick a central location and have a reader's service and go out for a meal?
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« Reply #150 on: February 26, 2003, 09:18:26 AM »

Quote
Wow, I didn't realize you were in Macon.  I'm pretty familiar with both St. Mary of Egypt in Atlanta(both Fr. Peter and Mother Terri Smith's attended our parish for several years) and the new St. Timothy Mission in Toccoa(we have a close relationship with them as our priest Fr. Marcus serves there often and is their spiritual father until they get a full time priest), but I know virtually nothing of St Innocent's in Macon.  Perhaps I can visit sometime.  

Please do !  We are building a new church from scratch in North Macon (Bolinbroke) and are quite excited with it, and of course we have a great Mission of mixed Russian/American members with quite a few converts.

Quote
If you're ever in the area, come by St. John of the Ladder Orthodox Church in Greenville SC.  www.stjohnoftheladder.org  With Bobby being in Raliegh, we're going to have to have a Southeast OC.net get together at some point.  Maybe pick a central location and have a reader's service and go out for a meal?

That would be fun.  We will try to stop by if we are in the area, and a get together would be great !
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Robert
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« Reply #151 on: February 26, 2003, 09:23:10 AM »

Us southerners really know how to throw a party and to top it off AmatorDei is irish Smiley

Bobby
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« Reply #152 on: February 26, 2003, 10:32:48 AM »

I think we've succeeded in hijacking this thread.  Someone please feel free to shame us into getting back on topic.  Smiley
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« Reply #153 on: February 26, 2003, 11:51:52 AM »

Quote
From Prodromos: Linus, I don't want to disparage the OSB as I have not read it myself, but I have heard a lot of unfavorable comments from a number of people especially regarding the study notes which in some places are outright incorrect.

I've only seen one incorrect note. That is the one which states that the early Church sometimes baptized in Jesus' name and not in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I think the error was based on a misunderstanding of Acts 2:38.

There may be some other errors, but I have not noticed them.

Monkey -

I think my hair has been getting steadily grayer since I started over at CBBS.

Funny thing is, when I first found CBBS, I went there merely to post an announcement to see if anyone living in my area was interested in starting up a new Church.

I got no takers, so I began perusing the debate forums.

The rest is the usual sad story: social posting at first, followed by a growing dependence, and culminating in a terrible addiction.  Wink

Frankly, lately I have experienced a real weariness when I read the stuff over at CBBS. It has gotten so that now I must force myself to come up with responses.

I keep thinking, why the same stuff over and over and over again?

Haven't we been through this before?

You know - "You worship idols!"  "Faith alone!"  "The Rapture!"

Aaarrrggghhh!!!



You should try talking to Neo-pagans who were trying to proselytise people by forging historical data. And they were good. I did that for about a year. After talking to these people, talking to protestants is a vacation (and I mean it!). I also talked to atheist/agnostic forums for more about two years.  The data helped, but I think it was the fact that I didint respond to the sarcasm and other vile comments made by others that really helped. Not only that but when they made a sarcastic comment about me , I replyied with self-sarcasm even more caustic. This caused them eventually to stop doing it.  Wink

Results need patience and prayer. Remember it's not just the data that bring people to the Truth, it's much more than that. What you have been doing has had EXCELENT results. I know people that talk to protestants that has taken them 2-3 years to understand! Think about Monkey and Sapiens, and a whole bunch of other people that might be searching. You know the value of a single soul? Brothers, a soul is more valuable than the whole world.

In my experience, there is at least one like berean in every forum. But this happens to Orthodox as well . It's Psychological. There are fanatic Orthodox, that don't know anything about Orthodoxy, but they still remain Orthodox and protest violently if someone criticises Orthodoxy. Mind you i'm not talking about village or simple people, but learned people that are Orthodox just because they were born Orthodox, for them it's just the "right thing to do" , and spiritual life is unexistant. You see people are people everywhere, they respond the same. Without love for the truth everything is SO hard.

Oh! , I almost forgot, take Monkeys advice. ALWAYS write down your responce on a text editor, and then copy paste it. I've learned this the hard way Grin

Another practical advice is to save your responces on a folder and index them ,by subject, in a way you can find them. This way every time an older question pops back up you can copy paste an answer, fast and easy.

May the Lord and his Saints be with us, always..
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« Reply #154 on: February 26, 2003, 01:24:20 PM »

t0m_dR -

Excellent advice. I do get tired, but then I think of the positive PMs I've gotten and the actual conversions that have occurred.

It really is worth it.

Besides, there are many Protestants who are genuinely interested in the truth. They really don't care about denominational loyalties; they are interested in Jesus. That means they have one foot in the door of Holy Orthodoxy already!

By the way, t0m, I spoke with a couple of Greek ladies at my Church this Sunday. They are interested in translating some of your apologetics stuff (one of them has a law degree from Cambridge, and the other teaches NT Greek). Please give me your email address again.

To Oblio, Robert, Amator Dei and the other "Southern Boys" -

I live in the Northern Shenandoah Valley of Virginia. If y'all are gonna have a confab sometime in Raleigh, NC, please let me know. I might be able to make one of those (if I am invited, that is).

Oh! And by the way, Monkey's from Florida. He might be interested in one of your southern meetings.

We ought to meet, if we are really going to make something out of the St. Justin Martyr Society.
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« Reply #155 on: February 26, 2003, 01:31:38 PM »

t0m_dR -

Excellent advice. I do get tired, but then I think of the positive PMs I've gotten and the actual conversions that have occurred.

It really is worth it.

Besides, there are many Protestants who are genuinely interested in the truth. They really don't care about denominational loyalties; they are interested in Jesus. That means they have one foot in the door of Holy Orthodoxy already!

By the way, t0m, I spoke with a couple of Greek ladies at my Church this Sunday. They are interested in translating some of your apologetics stuff (one of them has a law degree from Cambridge, and the other teaches NT Greek). Please give me your email address again.


Thanks!!!


Orthodox Dogmatic Research Team:
http://users.aias.gr/oode

They should email the site administrator at: oode@aias.net

my email is tdritsas@mailbox.gr

you should give them the email of the Admin , though. After all it's his responsibility. He will be thrilled!

Thanks again!!!
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« Reply #156 on: February 26, 2003, 01:57:23 PM »

Linus,

Of course you would be invited!  Pretty soon(assuming that the last two admins I haven't heard from agree) we will have a location bar for everyone to put what area of the country(and world) they are from so a get-together would be easier to organize.  When I have more info, I'll let you know.
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« Reply #157 on: February 26, 2003, 03:01:00 PM »

My dear stars n' bars boyz,

Yea, I'm about to add the location bar. If you look in someone's profile, it should show their location if they bothered to put one in. However it would be more convienent if it was right on the message page.

I think an OC.net get-together would be awesome. I think when it starts getting warmer outside, we can make some definite plans.

yeehaw,
Bobby
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« Reply #158 on: February 26, 2003, 04:35:56 PM »

Southeast, Unite!
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« Reply #159 on: February 27, 2003, 01:35:15 PM »

Over on CBBS on the thread Praying to the Saints & Mary? beginning around post 462 on pg. 19 !! (default post/pg settting) begins a rather spirited match between myself/Monkey and eric_the_lonely.  The exchange ends at post 527 in a manner quite different from the start.

I wanted to note this here not to revel in our words, but to give Glory to Him who despite our sinful nature, may have shown through last night to pehaps enlighten a searching soul.

Of course, Guitar Picker, berean et. al. will do their best to undo our apologetics, but that is another day.
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« Reply #160 on: February 27, 2003, 01:47:11 PM »

Anyone have any ideas on how to tell those Fundies know that they're taking things out of context and misinterpreting them?  That seems to be one of the biggest barriers.  They seem to have no clue what taking something 'out-of-context' really means and that there are different ways (all wrong of course) of doing it.
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« Reply #161 on: February 27, 2003, 01:57:55 PM »

Anyone have any ideas on how to tell those Fundies know that they're taking things out of context and misinterpreting them?  That seems to be one of the biggest barriers.  They seem to have no clue what taking something 'out-of-context' really means and that there are different ways (all wrong of course) of doing it.

Elisha, some of them may be deliberately "proof-texting," doing their own Biblical exegesis and taking things "out of context" in the light of their own traditions, although they are blind to the fact that they DO indeed have their own (small "t") traditions.

Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #162 on: February 27, 2003, 05:07:05 PM »

Anyone have any ideas on how to tell those Fundies know that they're taking things out of context and misinterpreting them?  That seems to be one of the biggest barriers.  They seem to have no clue what taking something 'out-of-context' really means and that there are different ways (all wrong of course) of doing it.

I don't know if it is possible. For some of them, the only context they know is "Catholicism and Orthodoxy are wrong". No matter what we say, as long as they work from this premise, they will misinterpret everything
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« Reply #163 on: February 27, 2003, 05:09:29 PM »

a rather spirited match between myself/Monkey and eric_the_lonely.  The exchange ends at post 527 in a manner quite different from the start.

I feel blessed to have been part of it. It is amazing what God can do, despite me.
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« Reply #164 on: February 27, 2003, 05:19:59 PM »

Quote
From Elisha: Anyone have any ideas on how to tell those Fundies know that they're taking things out of context and misinterpreting them?  That seems to be one of the biggest barriers.  They seem to have no clue what taking something 'out-of-context' really means and that there are different ways (all wrong of course) of doing it.

You have certainly hit the nail on the head with that question. That is THE issue when arguing Bible with the Fundies.

Personally, I think there is no comprehensive solution. If there was, Protestantism itself would have hit on it long ago and would not be divided into a multitude of warring sects.

It seems to me one must proceed on a case-by-case basis. Even then, more than likely your Fundie opponent will refuse to see what it is you're driving at.

Take one of their favorite "prooftexts," 1 Cor. 4:6, for example:

"Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other."

The admonition "not to think beyond what is written" is what they like because they think it supports Sola Scriptura.

It is necessary to explain to them the larger context of 1 Corinthians in order for them to abandon that idea, and, of course, most of them refuse to abandon it or that prooftext.

The Orthodox argument usually looks something like this:

Paul was obviously speaking of divisiveness and factions among the Corinthians and was telling them not to go beyond what he was writing them in the present letter (1 Corinthians) in that regard.

Obviously he was not giving them an absolute, unchangeable rule of authority by telling them "not to think beyond what is written." If he was, then we would not have a New Testament, since "what is written" when Paul was writing 1 Corinthians was the Old Testament! The New Testament was as yet incomplete and lacking a universally-recognized canon.

If Paul was establishing the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, then why, later in the very same letter, did he commend the Corinthians for keeping Christian oral tradition (1 Cor. 11:2)?


Unfortunately, each argument with the Fundies must be approached in this case-specific way.

After awhile, however, one begins to see that their stock of prooftexts is limited. Thus one need only memorize a few standard replies and regurgitate them over and over and over and over . . .

That doesn't sound very noble or glamorous, but it is an accurate description of slogging it out with the Fundamentalists.

They don't usually come up with anything that has not been said umpteen million times before in various ways.

The secret is not in knowing the answers. It is in resisting the temptation to respond with mockery, sarcasm, and name-calling. In other words, we must argue like Christians while our opponents fight like the devil.

That is the difficult part, I think; but it is the part in which we far outstrip our opponents and shine the light of Christ for all to see.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2003, 05:24:58 PM by Linus7 » Logged

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« Reply #165 on: February 27, 2003, 07:36:32 PM »

Linus,
That may very well be, but rat the very least, remove the word 'obvious' from your explanation.  It puts the reader on the defensive and would consequently insult or make them feel stupid.
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« Reply #166 on: February 27, 2003, 08:45:27 PM »

Elisha -

Sorry. You are right. I overused "obviously" in my explanation.

I wrote it hurriedly this afternoon for an obviously Orthodox forum and not for heterodox consumption.  Wink

Good advice, though.

Thanks.
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« Reply #167 on: February 28, 2003, 05:58:35 AM »

They seem to be trying to focus on christian unity over there at the moment in the Bible Study forum, that is, their understanding of christian unity. I'm afraid I am at a loss as to how to respond to some of these posts. I mean there is nothing of actual substance to respond to. It is mind boggling Shocked

Have a look at the thread, 'The Spirit of Oneness, among the members of Christ' started by rosythrones and look at the responses. I really wonder if some of these people are able to digest spiritual meat, they seem to enjoy milk so much. The thread, A venture through Ephesians 3:14 thru 21 is just as bad, though only michael777 has responded. I feel like pointing them to Ephesians 4 where it talks about unity of faith but I don't think I can do it without coming across as judgemental.

John.
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« Reply #168 on: February 28, 2003, 09:28:41 AM »

I would like to ask: Does a book called "The unity of the Church through Holy Communion and the Bishops in the first three centuries of Christianity" exist in english, written by Metropolitan Zizioulas. The title is my translation, so it could differ. I'm asking because this book has "killed the protestantism" in a lot of people...
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« Reply #169 on: February 28, 2003, 09:51:22 AM »

t0m --

The book's title is Eucharist, Bishop, Church. You can purchase it at Amazon.com.

I read this book last month and it is wonderful and quite an eye opener. It contradicts the Roman Catholic belief that each church is part of the "universal" church. Likewise, it contradicts the protestant belief that the church was non-liturgical.

Each local church, united around the bishop while partaking in the Eucharist, contained the fulness of the Faith.

Greg
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« Reply #170 on: February 28, 2003, 10:31:24 AM »

Thanks! we are uploading some books by Metropolitan Zizioulas at our apologetics web site, and we were wondering if they exist in english..

We are presently uploading a book of his on Orthodox Dogmatic Theology. Just marvelous...  Smiley
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« Reply #171 on: February 28, 2003, 10:52:41 AM »

Quote
The book's title is Eucharist, Bishop, Church.

Sounds like the foundation stones of orthodoxy to me!

Quote
I read this book last month and it is wonderful and quite an eye opener. It contradicts the Roman Catholic belief that each church is part of the "universal" church. Likewise, it contradicts the protestant belief that the church was non-liturgical.

I wouldn’t say it contradicts belief in a universal Church. The problem is when one thinks the universal Church is coterminous with the Roman Rite and that everything else is second-rate and exists to serve that rite.

Quote
Each local church, united around the bishop while partaking in the Eucharist, contained the fulness of the Faith.

That’s right.
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« Reply #172 on: February 28, 2003, 11:28:02 AM »

---"I wouldn’t say it contradicts belief in a universal Church. The problem is when one thinks the universal Church is coterminous with the Roman Rite and that everything else is second-rate and exists to serve that rite."

Right. The point is that Roman Catholics view each local church as part of the universal church, which in some respect is true. However, they also view each local church as insufficiently containing the fullness of the Faith. Hence the need for papal authority to complete this fullness.

In this book, it is argued that each local church is part of the "universal" church in so far as each local church obviously lives and proclaims the same Faith. However, each local church contains the fullness of the Faith, lacking nothing.

The only question I had which the book did not seem to address is: why, after Christianity began to spread, didn't each local church retain its own bishop? I.e. one bishop-one parish.

Greg
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« Reply #173 on: February 28, 2003, 12:12:03 PM »

Quote
Right. The point is that Roman Catholics view each local church as part of the universal church, which in some respect is true. However, they also view each local church as insufficiently containing the fullness of the Faith. Hence the need for papal authority to complete this fullness.

AFAIK correct. Catholic ecclesiology: the Church is 1) local church + Pope, 2) communion of local Churches + Pope, 3) particular/ritual sui juris Church + Pope.

Quote
In this book, it is argued that each local church is part of the "universal" church in so far as each local church obviously lives and proclaims the same Faith. However, each local church contains the fullness of the Faith, lacking nothing.

But how is this ecclesiology different from that of the garage-church vagante who claims to share his faith with Rome, Constantinople, whoever, but isn’t in communion with same? What of communion, -ü-+-¦-+-Ç-+-+-ü-é-î? Without the community of the Church, namely, the communion of all orthodox local churches, a local church is nothing, or dogmatically a big question mark gracewise, but not the Church. This is what I think is missing in your presentation of Eastern Orthodox ecclesiology, and it’s crucial. Especially since, to its credit, EOxy doesn’t play games with ‘lines of apostolic succession’ outside that communion.

Quote
The only question I had which the book did not seem to address is: why, after Christianity began to spread, didn't each local church retain its own bishop? I.e. one bishop-one parish.

Because the local church got too big for one bishop to handle! So the order of priest was spun off from bishops: men ordained to stand in for the bishop celebrating the Eucharist for small satellite communities (which in the medieval West became geographical parishes) in big cities.
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« Reply #174 on: February 28, 2003, 01:54:19 PM »

Quote
But how is this ecclesiology different from that of the garage-church vagante who claims to share his faith with Rome, Constantinople, whoever, but isn’t in communion with same? What of communion, -ü-+-¦-+-Ç-+-+-ü-é-î? Without the community of the Church, namely, the communion of all orthodox local churches, a local church is nothing, or dogmatically a big question mark gracewise, but not the Church. This is what I think is missing in your presentation of Eastern Orthodox ecclesiology, and it’s crucial. Especially since, to its credit, EOxy doesn’t play games with ‘lines of apostolic succesion’ outside that communion.

I believe what Zizioulas is saying is that each local church is part of the "universal" church only because the other local churches accept them. In other words, they share the same Faith. Of course there where other heretical groups who claimed to be churches, but it was not the case. For instance, city A has a church. All christians attended this church to partake in the Eucharist. Another group of "Christians" set up another "church" in city A, claiming to be a church. The local Christians would not accept them for two reasons: there was only one Eucharist per city and there was one bishop per city. In contrast to today's world, unity was not first seen primarity in a doctrinal or dogmatic fashion, but rather a unity through the local Eucharist.

Quote
Because the local church got too big for one bishop to handle! So the order of priest was spun off from bishops: men ordained to stand in for the bishop celebrating the Eucharist for small satellite communities (which in the medieval West became geographical parishes) in big cities.

I agree and that is what historically happened. But my question is: why didn't the bishops from the surrounding cities consecrate a new bishop to shepard this flock, instead of ordaining priests? Now, if the Christian community is too large in ONE particular city, then I understand why this happened. But, what about a bishop's jurisdiction extending BEYOND one city?

Greg
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« Reply #175 on: February 28, 2003, 06:15:50 PM »

city, then I understand why this happened. But, what about a bishop's jurisdiction extending BEYOND one city?

Perhaps there were not enough qualified candidates.
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« Reply #176 on: March 04, 2003, 01:29:36 AM »

Monkey -

You are doing stellar work over at CBBS!

Thank you, brother!

I like your thread, Where Were the Evangelicals?

I wonder if we will get any real arguments there.

It seems to me that is a real hole (though not the only one by any means) in the Protestant worldview.

It was definitely extremely significant in persuading me to become Orthodox.

Anyway, good work!  Grin
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« Reply #177 on: March 04, 2003, 07:36:15 PM »

Here is a direct link to the thread Where Were the Evangelicals?

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« Reply #178 on: March 11, 2003, 12:42:19 PM »

Surprise, surprise;

Our friend Abdur has found his way right back to Islam againGǪ
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« Reply #179 on: March 11, 2003, 12:47:04 PM »

Surprise, surprise;

Our friend Abdur has found his way right back to Islam againGǪ


How sad!  But in my heart of hearts, I somehow had the feeling that he had never really left it.

Hypo-Ortho
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