Author Topic: Convince me that Anglicanism is false  (Read 61035 times)

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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #45 on: May 01, 2015, 08:40:26 AM »
Having thought about this a bit more, an even bigger issue is not so much the contents of the 39 Articles (though there are plenty of issues there) but the fact that the English Church thought it had the ability, acting on its own, 15 centuries after Christ and His apostles, to decide what Christianity is.

Look up what the Tsars did to the Moscow Patriarchate some time.  Not that different.

The more you study history the more you realize most Christian churches have fanciful self-understandings. 

The Anglican Articles aren't a statement of what the Faith is, just what was lawful to preach concerning doctrine.  And people regularly played loose with them anyways.  Look at Newman's or Pusey's interpretation, for instance.  From a sympathetic standpoint, the Church was held captive to the State.  It's not like it hasn't happened before elsewhere. 
« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 08:43:22 AM by Daedelus1138 »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #46 on: May 01, 2015, 08:57:25 AM »
Quote
Look up what the Tsars did to the Moscow Patriarchate some time.  Not that different.

At what point in time? If you mean "Third Rome" theology, that was a response to at first a misunderstanding of the Council of Florence and then to the Fall of Constantinople. That seems a rather different issue than what Henry XIII and Abp. Cranmer were doing.

1. The poorness of communication at the time definitely plays a part here.

2. It isn't like it was a permanent rupture. The subsequent development of Russian Orthodoxy is rather different than that of Anglicanism. We're not just talking history here, but historical continuity.

If you had in mind the Old Believers, that's a sad chapter in Church History to be sure, but the MP has repented of that.
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Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #47 on: May 01, 2015, 11:34:38 AM »
Quote
Look up what the Tsars did to the Moscow Patriarchate some time.  Not that different.

At what point in time? If you mean "Third Rome" theology, that was a response to at first a misunderstanding of the Council of Florence and then to the Fall of Constantinople. That seems a rather different issue than what Henry XIII and Abp. Cranmer were doing.

1. The poorness of communication at the time definitely plays a part here.

2. It isn't like it was a permanent rupture. The subsequent development of Russian Orthodoxy is rather different than that of Anglicanism. We're not just talking history here, but historical continuity.

If you had in mind the Old Believers, that's a sad chapter in Church History to be sure, but the MP has repented of that.

He probably means Peter I's suppression of the patriarchate in favor of the Most Holy Governing Synod. In that case, there is an analogy between the Russian and English Churches, with the difference being that the Russian Church did not adopt a fundamentally different version of Christianity subsequently - it remained Orthodox, whereas the English Church moved in an increasingly Protestant direction from that point on.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #48 on: May 01, 2015, 11:47:56 AM »
I'm not convinced that working to prove every other faith community is false is a profitable endeavor.
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Offline byhisgrace

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #49 on: May 01, 2015, 12:39:46 PM »
I'm not convinced that working to prove every other faith community is false is a profitable endeavor.

Maybe you're right...

At best, it will leave any honest inquirer with a lot of confusion; and at worst, it will turn a convert into a polemical monster.

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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #50 on: May 02, 2015, 06:55:17 AM »
I don't think high church Anglicanism is shrinking as a percentage of all Anglicans, at least in North America.  With denominationalism in the US, Episcopalians have tended to become a haven for Roman Catholics looking for a less dogmatic faith.  And the Episcopal Church has always tended towards a praxis and theology more receptive to Tractarianism / Anglo-Catholicism because it is not a state church that must accommodate everyone.  In fact the first post-Reformation monastic movement in Anglicanism occurred in the US.

A lot of the 19th century Ritualist movement is basically mainstream now here in the US, even among conservative Anglicans, especially those involved in the convergence movement, which is quite influential in groups such as the ACNA.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2015, 06:56:59 AM by Daedelus1138 »
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Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #51 on: May 02, 2015, 01:01:30 PM »
[T]here is an analogy between the Russian [under Peter the Great] and English [under Henry VIII] Churches, with the difference being that the Russian Church did not adopt a fundamentally different version of Christianity subsequently - it remained Orthodox, whereas the English Church moved in an increasingly Protestant direction from that point on.

Your identification of a "Protestant direction" with "a fundamentally different version of Christianity" is spurious.  The foundation of the Anglican churches is, and always has been, Jesus Christ.  The reformation was an attempt to be truer to this foundation.  If some Protestants happen to agree with us on some things, good for them!  But it does not make our Christianity "fundamentally different" from what it was.
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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #52 on: May 02, 2015, 01:53:17 PM »
Your identification of a "Protestant direction" with "a fundamentally different version of Christianity" is spurious.  The foundation of the Anglican churches is, and always has been, Jesus Christ.  The reformation was an attempt to be truer to this foundation.  If some Protestants happen to agree with us on some things, good for them!  But it does not make our Christianity "fundamentally different" from what it was.

I'd like to hear more apologetics for Episcopalianism/Anglicanism, especially how it retains continuity with the apostolic faith, viz a viz someone coming from an Orthodox or Roman Catholic standpoint.  Most apologetics I have encountered just focus on how crazy it is to be against birth control, homosexuality, or women's ordination, but some people are a bit more serious about their faith than to fall for shallow appeals to sentiment. 
« Last Edit: May 02, 2015, 01:54:42 PM by Daedelus1138 »
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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #53 on: May 02, 2015, 02:01:03 PM »
Most apologetics I have encountered just focus on how crazy it is to be against birth control, homosexuality, or women's ordination, but some people are a bit more serious about their faith than to fall for shallow appeals to sentiment.
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #54 on: May 02, 2015, 02:05:51 PM »
  But it does not make our Christianity "fundamentally different" from what it was.

But the Anglican Church did become fundamentally different. The Church of England was Roman Catholic before the 1530s, and then it gradually become Puritan and Semi-Calvinist before changing again in the 19th century to a hybrid Christianity. That's what I would call fundamentally different.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2015, 02:06:42 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #55 on: May 02, 2015, 02:16:47 PM »
[T]here is an analogy between the Russian [under Peter the Great] and English [under Henry VIII] Churches, with the difference being that the Russian Church did not adopt a fundamentally different version of Christianity subsequently - it remained Orthodox, whereas the English Church moved in an increasingly Protestant direction from that point on.


Your identification of a "Protestant direction" with "a fundamentally different version of Christianity" is spurious.  The foundation of the Anglican churches is, and always has been, Jesus Christ.  The reformation was an attempt to be truer to this foundation.  If some Protestants happen to agree with us on some things, good for them!  But it does not make our Christianity "fundamentally different" from what it was.

What good does it do to say that your foundation is Christ? The Mormons say this too.

Catholics and Orthodox also say that their foundation is Christ and yet would also say that rejection of the Apostolic Church and innovations like sola fide and denial of the Real Presence amount to at best a serious distortion of Christ.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2015, 02:44:58 PM »
[T]here is an analogy between the Russian [under Peter the Great] and English [under Henry VIII] Churches, with the difference being that the Russian Church did not adopt a fundamentally different version of Christianity subsequently - it remained Orthodox, whereas the English Church moved in an increasingly Protestant direction from that point on.


Your identification of a "Protestant direction" with "a fundamentally different version of Christianity" is spurious.  The foundation of the Anglican churches is, and always has been, Jesus Christ.  The reformation was an attempt to be truer to this foundation.  If some Protestants happen to agree with us on some things, good for them!  But it does not make our Christianity "fundamentally different" from what it was.

What good does it do to say that your foundation is Christ? The Mormons say this too.

Catholics and Orthodox also say that their foundation is Christ and yet would also say that rejection of the Apostolic Church and innovations like sola fide and denial of the Real Presence amount to at best a serious distortion of Christ.

I think it says a lot that Mockingbird asks us to evaluate Anglicanism on the basis of a book first published in 1979:


Please examine our Prayer Book before writing us off.

To be fair, the 1979 BCP has a lot in continuity with previous BCP's, but also some serious divergences. For instance, prayers for the dead are included for the first time in any BCP since the 1549 edition, as far as I know. This would have raised an uproar in the Anglican church at any time from the Elizabethan settlement (or earlier) until the 20th century. The 39 articles, which Anglican priests were at one time required to affirm, are relegated to "historical documents." The Psalter is given the gender neutral makeover.

Maybe a chief problem with proving that Anglicanism is false is the many contradictory things that have been upheld as true within its ranks at different times and places.
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Offline eddybear

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #57 on: May 02, 2015, 03:13:06 PM »
Maybe a chief problem with proving that Anglicanism is false is the many contradictory things that have been upheld as true within its ranks at different times and places.
There is a very good post on the Continuing Anglican thread, reply no. 37, with details of how Anglican doctrine was in a state of flux in its early days. It's hard to believe that any church that kept changing its doctrine so much and so rapidly, was holding fast to the faith once delivered to the saints.

As far as trying to prove Anglicanism "false" goes, maybe it would be easier to answer whether Anglicanism has the fulness of the Apostolic Faith?


Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #58 on: May 02, 2015, 03:35:38 PM »
[P]rayers for the dead are included [in the 1979 BCP] for the first time in any BCP since the 1549 edition, as far as I know.
On the day President Kennedy died we knelt down in the living room, and my mother said this prayer from the Prayer Book (1928) that then was:
Quote from: 1928 Book of Common Prayer
Almighty God, we remember this day before thee thy faithful servant, and we pray that, having opened to him the gates of larger life, thou wilt receive him more and more into thy joyful service; that he may win, with thee and thy servants everywhere, the eternal victory; through Jesus Christ our Lord.
though she may have modified the wording somewhat to make it easier for us kids to understand.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2015, 03:38:12 PM by Mockingbird »
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #59 on: May 02, 2015, 03:35:43 PM »
As far as trying to prove Anglicanism "false" goes, maybe it would be easier to answer whether Anglicanism has the fulness of the Apostolic Faith?

Are you going to get the fulless of the apostolic faith at a Church full of Greeks where the liturgy is in Greek and you only speak English?  I don't see how.  Maybe the fullness of the faith doesn't really exist anywhere.  There are many other alternatives.
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #60 on: May 02, 2015, 03:41:24 PM »
[P]rayers for the dead are included [in the 1979 BCP] for the first time in any BCP since the 1549 edition, as far as I know.
On the day President Kennedy died we knelt down in the living room, and my mother said this prayer from the Prayer Book (1928) that then was:
Quote from: 1928 Book of Common Prayer
Almighty God, we remember this day before thee thy faithful servant, and we pray that, having opened to him the gates of larger life, thou wilt receive him more and more into thy joyful service; that he may win, with thee and thy servants everywhere, the eternal victory; through Jesus Christ our Lord.
though she may have modified the wording somewhat to make it easier for us kids to understand.

OK, so the absence of prayers for the dead lasted from 1549 to 1928, not 1979. I think his point still stands: your church has not been constant or consistent in their confession of faith.

Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #61 on: May 02, 2015, 03:41:31 PM »
I'd like to hear more apologetics for Episcopalianism/Anglicanism, especially how it retains continuity with the apostolic faith.
A good place to start is the second part of John Jewel's Apology.
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #62 on: May 02, 2015, 03:46:16 PM »
I'd like to hear more apologetics for Episcopalianism/Anglicanism, especially how it retains continuity with the apostolic faith.
A good place to start is the second part of John Jewel's Apology.

Having skimmed through the first few paragraphs....

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that Christ hath left us as touching His human nature, but hath not left us as touching His Divine nature

Sounds Nestorian.

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We believe that the Holy Ghost, who is the third person in the Holy Trinity, is very God: not made, not created, not begotten, but proceeding from both the Father and the Son

Ouch.


Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #63 on: May 02, 2015, 03:48:44 PM »
As far as trying to prove Anglicanism "false" goes, maybe it would be easier to answer whether Anglicanism has the fulness of the Apostolic Faith?

Are you going to get the fulless of the apostolic faith at a Church full of Greeks where the liturgy is in Greek and you only speak English?  I don't see how.  Maybe the fullness of the faith doesn't really exist anywhere.  There are many other alternatives.

Well, then Christ is a liar.
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #64 on: May 02, 2015, 03:48:58 PM »
I think it's been pointed out before by many that Protestantism is in many ways just several riffs on Nestorianism.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #65 on: May 02, 2015, 03:50:18 PM »
I'd like to hear more apologetics for Episcopalianism/Anglicanism, especially how it retains continuity with the apostolic faith.
A good place to start is the second part of John Jewel's Apology.

Neither have we any other mediator and intercessor, by whom we may have access to God the Father, than Jesus Christ, in whose only Name all things are obtained at His Father's hand. But it is a shameful part, and full of infidelity, that we see every whore used in the churches of our adversaries, not only in that they will have innumerable sorts of mediators, and that utterly without the authority of God's word (so that, as Jeremy saith, "The saints be now as many in number, or rather above the number of the cities;" and poor men cannot tell to which saint it were best to turn them first; and though there be so many as they cannot be told, yet every one of them hath his peculiar duty and office assigned unto him of these folks, what thing they ought to ask, what to give, and what to bring to pass): but besides this also, in that they do not only wickedly, but also shamefully, call upon the Blessed Virgin, Christ's mother, to have her remember that she is the mother, and to command her Son, and to use a mother's authority over Him.

This is not the apostolic faith. Try again.
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #66 on: May 02, 2015, 03:52:34 PM »
Still, it's nice to read a defense of the Anglican faith that sets clear boundaries between truth and falsehood, even if what Bp Jewel considered the truth was in error. I can respect him in a way I can't respect contemporary purveyors of syncretism and relativism.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #67 on: May 02, 2015, 03:54:33 PM »
Still, it's nice to read a defense of the Anglican faith that sets clear boundaries between truth and falsehood, even if what Bp Jewel considered the truth was in error. I can respect him in a way I can't respect contemporary purveyors of syncretism and relativism.

A good point. It's rather strange to invoke Bishop Jewel as an authority here, as he would find the Episcopal Church unrecognizable. The fact that Bishop Spong could openly deny the most basic Christian beliefs without any discipline against him is a pretty good indicator that there are no real doctrinal standards in Anglicanism today.
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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #68 on: May 02, 2015, 04:11:11 PM »
OK, so the absence of prayers for the dead lasted from 1549 to 1928, not 1979. I think his point still stands: your church has not been constant or consistent in their confession of faith.

Can you say Iconclastic Controversy?  The Church hierarchy was held captive to a belief deemed heretical, for around two centuries.

A good point. It's rather strange to invoke Bishop Jewel as an authority here, as he would find the Episcopal Church unrecognizable. The fact that Bishop Spong could openly deny the most basic Christian beliefs without any discipline against him is a pretty good indicator that there are no real doctrinal standards in Anglicanism today.

Have you actually listened to, or read any of Spong?  I watched him in a debate with William Lane Craig.  It's true he seems to redefinie many things in a way that's uncomfortable for me but it's hard to pin him down as violating the canons of the Episcopal Church.

You'ld be shocked what sort of stuff gets taught in many Orthodox seminaries, BTW.  If you think its all biblical literalism, you are in for a surprise.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2015, 04:14:42 PM by Daedelus1138 »
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Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #69 on: May 02, 2015, 04:13:49 PM »
[Y]our church has not been constant or consistent in their confession of faith.
Our neophytes have always been baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, and been signed with the sign of the cross.  (The Puritans hated that signation).

Our anaphoras have always given thanks to God the Father through Jesus Christ.  Here are the proper prefaces for Christmas, Easter, Ascension, and Whitsunday respectively, from the 1604 Prayer Book:

Quote from: proper preface for Christmas in 1604 Prayer Book
Because thou didst give Jesus Christ thine only Son to be born as this day for us; who, by the operation of the Holy Ghost, was made very man of the substance of the Virgin Mary his mother; and that without spot of sin, to make us clean from all sin.

Quote from: proper preface for Easter in 1604 Prayer Book
But chiefly are we bound to praise thee for the glorious resurrection of thy Son Jesus Christ our Lord: for he is the very Paschal Lamb, which was offered for us, and hath taken away the sin of the world; who by his death hath destroyed death, and by his rising to life again hath restored to us everlasting life.

Quote from: proper preface for Ascension Day in 1604 Prayer Book
Through thy most dearly beloved Son Jesus Christ our Lord; who after his most glorious resurrection manifestly appeared to all his Apostles, and in their sight ascended up into heaven to prepare a place for us; that where he is, thither might we also ascend, and reign with him in glory.

Quote from: proper preface for Whitsunday in 1604 Prayer Book
Through Jesus Christ our Lord; according to whose most true promise, the Holy Ghost came down this day from heaven with a sudden great sound, as it had been a mighty wind, in the likeness of fiery tongues, lighting upon the Apostles, to teach them, and to lead them to all truth; giving them both the gift of divers languages, and also boldness with fervent zeal constantly to preach the Gospel unto all nations; whereby we are brought out of darkness and error into the clear light and true knowledge of thee, and of thy Son Jesus Christ.

Do you have a problem with any of these statements?

We have always held the Apostles' and Nicene Creeds.  It is true that some in the Episcopal church, when it was being organized in the late 1700's, wanted to scrap the Nicene creed on account of its unscriptural language, but they were voted down.

In all our rites we say the Lord's Prayer.  Do you have a problem with that?

We have always read the Scriptures in our worship.  Ideally, if one could get to church morning and evening every day, he would hear the entire Bible.  Does this impede a faithful confession?

Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #70 on: May 02, 2015, 04:35:46 PM »
OK, so the absence of prayers for the dead lasted from 1549 to 1928, not 1979. I think his point still stands: your church has not been constant or consistent in their confession of faith.

Can you say Iconclastic Controversy?  The Church hierarchy was held captive to a belief deemed heretical, for around two centuries.


Not the entire hierarchy. The Roman patriarchate remained untouched, and many groups, particularly monasteries, maintained the truth despite persecution. St John of Damascus famously wrote against it.

And what's different about today is that the Orthodox were not hesitant in breaking communion with heretics back then. Today's Anglicans all remain in communion despite not sharing a common faith, as if these differences don't really matter.

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #71 on: May 02, 2015, 04:39:39 PM »
[Y]our church has not been constant or consistent in their confession of faith.
Our neophytes have always been baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, and been signed with the sign of the cross.  (The Puritans hated that signation).

Our anaphoras have always given thanks to God the Father through Jesus Christ.  Here are the proper prefaces for Christmas, Easter, Ascension, and Whitsunday respectively, from the 1604 Prayer Book:

Quote from: proper preface for Christmas in 1604 Prayer Book
Because thou didst give Jesus Christ thine only Son to be born as this day for us; who, by the operation of the Holy Ghost, was made very man of the substance of the Virgin Mary his mother; and that without spot of sin, to make us clean from all sin.

Quote from: proper preface for Easter in 1604 Prayer Book
But chiefly are we bound to praise thee for the glorious resurrection of thy Son Jesus Christ our Lord: for he is the very Paschal Lamb, which was offered for us, and hath taken away the sin of the world; who by his death hath destroyed death, and by his rising to life again hath restored to us everlasting life.

Quote from: proper preface for Ascension Day in 1604 Prayer Book
Through thy most dearly beloved Son Jesus Christ our Lord; who after his most glorious resurrection manifestly appeared to all his Apostles, and in their sight ascended up into heaven to prepare a place for us; that where he is, thither might we also ascend, and reign with him in glory.

Quote from: proper preface for Whitsunday in 1604 Prayer Book
Through Jesus Christ our Lord; according to whose most true promise, the Holy Ghost came down this day from heaven with a sudden great sound, as it had been a mighty wind, in the likeness of fiery tongues, lighting upon the Apostles, to teach them, and to lead them to all truth; giving them both the gift of divers languages, and also boldness with fervent zeal constantly to preach the Gospel unto all nations; whereby we are brought out of darkness and error into the clear light and true knowledge of thee, and of thy Son Jesus Christ.

Do you have a problem with any of these statements?

We have always held the Apostles' and Nicene Creeds.  It is true that some in the Episcopal church, when it was being organized in the late 1700's, wanted to scrap the Nicene creed on account of its unscriptural language, but they were voted down.

In all our rites we say the Lord's Prayer.  Do you have a problem with that?

We have always read the Scriptures in our worship.  Ideally, if one could get to church morning and evening every day, he would hear the entire Bible.  Does this impede a faithful confession?

I have a problem with you evading my earlier point, which was that there's a discrepancy between your church's teaching on prayers for the dead in the 39 articles and in the original BCP, and the teaching implied in the prayers from the 1928 version. A church that taught the truth would not change doctrine like that.

I also have a problem with you trying to pass your faith off as Orthodox, whether the explicitly Protestant faith of Bp Jewel or the syncretistic hodge-podge taught by today's Anglican bishops. As several others have pointed out, even in that "orthodox" confession of faith by Bp Jewel, we can identify several areas of disagreement.

Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #72 on: May 02, 2015, 04:43:45 PM »
I'd like to hear more apologetics for Episcopalianism/Anglicanism, especially how it retains continuity with the apostolic faith.
A good place to start is the second part of John Jewel's Apology.

Neither have we any other mediator and intercessor, by whom we may have access to God the Father, than Jesus Christ, in whose only Name all things are obtained at His Father's hand. But it is a shameful part, and full of infidelity, that we see every whore used in the churches of our adversaries, not only in that they will have innumerable sorts of mediators, and that utterly without the authority of God's word (so that, as Jeremy saith, "The saints be now as many in number, or rather above the number of the cities;" and poor men cannot tell to which saint it were best to turn them first; and though there be so many as they cannot be told, yet every one of them hath his peculiar duty and office assigned unto him of these folks, what thing they ought to ask, what to give, and what to bring to pass): but besides this also, in that they do not only wickedly, but also shamefully, call upon the Blessed Virgin, Christ's mother, to have her remember that she is the mother, and to command her Son, and to use a mother's authority over Him.

This is not the apostolic faith. Try again.

It was stated in the Ten Articles, (1536),  that invocation of saints should "be done without any vain superstition, as to think that any saint is more merciful, or will hear us any sooner than Christ; or that any saint doth serve for one thing more than another, or is patron of the same".   Which apostle taught that some saint "is more merciful, or will hear us any sooner than Christ"? 

By Bishop Jewel's time the invocation of saints in the public liturgy had been pared down to a single reference, in the canticle Benedicite:

Quote from: Benedicite
O ye Spirits and Souls of the Righteous, bless ye the Lord: Praise him, and magnify him for ever.

How do you know that we did not need to go almost cold-turkey to wean ourselves from supersition?  Are you our spiritual advisor?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2015, 04:48:40 PM by Mockingbird »
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #73 on: May 02, 2015, 04:52:19 PM »
I also have a problem with you trying to pass your faith off as Orthodox,
I take exception to your accusation of "passing off" and have reported it to the moderator.

I notice that you were not able to point to anything unorthodox in the post to which you were responding.
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #74 on: May 02, 2015, 04:53:56 PM »
I also have a problem with you trying to pass your faith off as Orthodox,
I take exception to your accusation of "passing off" and have reported it to the moderator.

I notice that you were not able to point to anything unorthodox in the post to which you were responding.

LOL. How exactly did that break the rules? Never mind, I imagine the moderator will let me know.

There was nothing unorthodox that I could find. We did find unorthodox statements in the passages by Bp Jewel, unless your position now is that Bp Jewel doesn't accurately reflect your faith, in which case you're just confirming my accusation of Anglican inconstancy.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2015, 04:55:15 PM by Jonathan Gress »

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #75 on: May 02, 2015, 04:54:48 PM »
I also have a problem with you trying to pass your faith off as Orthodox,
I take exception to your accusation of "passing off" and have reported it to the moderator.

You'll need to grow a thicker skin to be able to survive around here.

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #76 on: May 02, 2015, 04:56:00 PM »
I also have a problem with you trying to pass your faith off as Orthodox,
I take exception to your accusation of "passing off" and have reported it to the moderator.

You'll need to grow a thicker skin to be able to survive around here.

So many crybabies around here.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2015, 05:01:09 PM by Jonathan Gress »

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #77 on: May 02, 2015, 04:56:17 PM »
Please also examine our liturgical texts, and compare our liturgy with the Episcopal liturgy. 

Here is good starting point:
http://www.saintjonah.org/services/

Your local library may be able to obtain some of the expensive liturgical books like the Lenten Triodion, the Pentecostarion, et cetera, or you could get the Nasser Five Pounder (I forget the proper title but I have one, the author is Fr. Seraphim Nasser) used on the cheap and that will give you most of the variable parts of the liturgy.  That's for Eastern Orthodox services as you indicated on the OO forum you would like to go there, and they have a fantastic liturgy.  However, PM me or look at the Sticky threads in the OO forum if you want to see our texts, because comparative liturgics is so fun.

Also here's a site with nearly every version of the Book of Common Prayer:
http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/england.htm
I think the 1928 English and American books and the 1962 Canadian book win.

And here's the Roman Breviary and Missal, with propers for every day of the year, in several Tridentine versions, including most importantly the pre-Pius XIi versions.  Compare the 1910 Mass of the Presanctified on Good Friday with the Orthodox Liturgy of the Presanctified, to see the commonalities, and why we ascribe it to Pope St. Gregory the Great (although many believe the Oriental St. Severus pioneered the Presanctified concept; the signing of the Chalice is very different from this liturgy however, which at a minimum was documented and introduced to Rome by Gregory the Great; it may have been pre existant in Constantinople. 

http://divinumofficium.com

Edit: I thought I was on page 2.  Anyway, Mockingbird encouraged byhisgrace to check out the 1979 BCP, so here are all versions of it, with the Eastern Orthodox liturgical resources compiled by Fr. John Whiteford and the Roman Catholic preconciliar liturgy for comparison.  I omitted the Novus Ordo mass as I'm still recovering from the stomach flu, not wanting to sound too uncharitable or anything.   :P
« Last Edit: May 02, 2015, 04:59:39 PM by wgw »
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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #78 on: May 02, 2015, 05:04:21 PM »
I think it's been pointed out before by many that Protestantism is in many ways just several riffs on Nestorianism.

By me among others.  The Black Rubric in the 1552 and 1662 editions of the Book of Common Prayer is more Nestorian than anything that's come out of the Assyrian Church of the East since Mar Narsai.  The real Nestorians are the Calvinists.
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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #79 on: May 02, 2015, 05:16:39 PM »
OK, so the absence of prayers for the dead lasted from 1549 to 1928, not 1979. I think his point still stands: your church has not been constant or consistent in their confession of faith.

Can you say Iconclastic Controversy?  The Church hierarchy was held captive to a belief deemed heretical, for around two centuries.

A good point. It's rather strange to invoke Bishop Jewel as an authority here, as he would find the Episcopal Church unrecognizable. The fact that Bishop Spong could openly deny the most basic Christian beliefs without any discipline against him is a pretty good indicator that there are no real doctrinal standards in Anglicanism today.

Have you actually listened to, or read any of Spong?  I watched him in a debate with William Lane Craig.  It's true he seems to redefinie many things in a way that's uncomfortable for me but it's hard to pin him down as violating the canons of the Episcopal Church.

You'ld be shocked what sort of stuff gets taught in many Orthodox seminaries, BTW.  If you think its all biblical literalism, you are in for a surprise.

So, the Anglican Church has been held captive to heresy since they were founded? I see, even more a reason to reject them for their perfidy.

Also, nobody here believes that Orthodox seminaries all teach "biblical literalism" Orthodox are well aware of the problems of Scripture. We don't need Sola Scriptura to understand Scripture... which is an oxymoron in any case.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2015, 05:21:00 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #80 on: May 02, 2015, 05:35:52 PM »
[Y]our church has not been constant or consistent in their confession of faith.
Our neophytes have always been baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, and been signed with the sign of the cross.  (The Puritans hated that signation).

Our anaphoras have always given thanks to God the Father through Jesus Christ.  Here are the proper prefaces for Christmas, Easter, Ascension, and Whitsunday respectively, from the 1604 Prayer Book:

Quote from: proper preface for Christmas in 1604 Prayer Book
Because thou didst give Jesus Christ thine only Son to be born as this day for us; who, by the operation of the Holy Ghost, was made very man of the substance of the Virgin Mary his mother; and that without spot of sin, to make us clean from all sin.

Quote from: proper preface for Easter in 1604 Prayer Book
But chiefly are we bound to praise thee for the glorious resurrection of thy Son Jesus Christ our Lord: for he is the very Paschal Lamb, which was offered for us, and hath taken away the sin of the world; who by his death hath destroyed death, and by his rising to life again hath restored to us everlasting life.

Quote from: proper preface for Ascension Day in 1604 Prayer Book
Through thy most dearly beloved Son Jesus Christ our Lord; who after his most glorious resurrection manifestly appeared to all his Apostles, and in their sight ascended up into heaven to prepare a place for us; that where he is, thither might we also ascend, and reign with him in glory.

Quote from: proper preface for Whitsunday in 1604 Prayer Book
Through Jesus Christ our Lord; according to whose most true promise, the Holy Ghost came down this day from heaven with a sudden great sound, as it had been a mighty wind, in the likeness of fiery tongues, lighting upon the Apostles, to teach them, and to lead them to all truth; giving them both the gift of divers languages, and also boldness with fervent zeal constantly to preach the Gospel unto all nations; whereby we are brought out of darkness and error into the clear light and true knowledge of thee, and of thy Son Jesus Christ.

Do you have a problem with any of these statements?

We have always held the Apostles' and Nicene Creeds.  It is true that some in the Episcopal church, when it was being organized in the late 1700's, wanted to scrap the Nicene creed on account of its unscriptural language, but they were voted down.

In all our rites we say the Lord's Prayer.  Do you have a problem with that?

We have always read the Scriptures in our worship.  Ideally, if one could get to church morning and evening every day, he would hear the entire Bible.  Does this impede a faithful confession?

Why are you quoting the obscure 1604 Prayerbook?  It wouldn't matter how Orthodox it was since to my knowledge no one actually uses that edition any longer.  The Eastern Orthodox also read the entire New Testament except Revelations during the Divine Liturgy and a huge chunk of the Old Testament.  The Copts read a bit less of the Old Testament, reading it primarily in Holy Week, but read the Apocalypse.  The Syriacs have different lectionaries which can include two Old Testament lections and two New Teatament ones.  So we can't be accused of the slightly stylized and minimalistic lessons of the Tridentine missal, which just convey the essence; our lessons are more substantial, like the Anglican ones.  But consider this: how many Anglican churches celebrate Mattins and Evensong according to the older BCP editions rather than the newer service books with the  Revised Common Lectionary, which fails to read more than about 60% of the Bible in three years, every day?  If you can name one in the UK using the 1662 or 1928 editions, or one in the US using the 1928 edition, or one in Canada using the 1962 edition, I would be delighted.  In Southern California there is an Order of the Holy Cross monastery but they're on the 79 BCP and the RCL and thus are not doing the whole Old and New Testaments.   An Anglican parish with daily choral Mattins , Communion and Evensong is something like Xanadu these days; a fabulous lost city that once did exist (St. Pauls at the turn of the 20th cenrury perhaps, or Christ Church at Oxford, or Canterbury Cathedral), at least according to archaeological evidence, but which has since descended into the realm of myth.

And consider this dismaying observation: the suggestion that the Nicene Creed, which you confess not. having interpolated the Filioque and rha creating a new creed, excepting the Non Juring Scottish Episcopalians loyal to Bonnie Primce Charlie, who sought Union with the Greeks and omitted the Filioque, from what I've read (though like the Loch Ness Monster they may be creatures of myth summoned to foster improved Anglican-Orthodox relations), contains unscriptural language, is to our ears almost blasphemous.  Just because the word meaning "of one essence" does not appear in the Bible does not make it unscriptural, for it accurately reflects the teachings of the Bible concerning the nature of our Lord Jesus Christ, who said Himself "I and the Father are one."  To say it's unscriptural because it uses a word or two not found in the New Testamemt is also literal to the point of being asinine, and fails to take into account the changes in Koine Greek that occurred between the first century, when we believe the Gospels were composed, and the fourth.  It would be like finding the phrase "self-expression" or perhaps "human dignity" in Shakespeare.

So you asked for something unorthodox in your post.  There it is.  You could have avoided it by saying "which they thought was unscriptural" but you worded it in such a way as to signify agreement with the basic idea.

That being said, it should also be noted the liturgical quotes you selected are similiar to our liturgy and we could hardly fault them; Cranmer lifted the Prayer of St. John Chrysostom from our Liturgy, where it is the Prayer of the Third Antiphon (or the second; I get them backwards sometimes). 

But in selecting a small sample of material you know to be inoffensive and omitting material that is offensive, like the Thirty Nine Articles, the Homily on Idolatry from the Book of Homilies, or the Black Rubric, you do appear to be trying to pass off historic Anglicanism as Orthodox.

In my view some high church Anglicans and Anglo Catholics are functionally Orthodox and should hasten to join the Antiochian Western Rite Vicarate.  But Anglicanism as a whole, although closer to Orthodoxy than any other Protestants with the possible exception of the Moravians or Hussites or Utraquists, a related grouping of formerly Orthodox Czechs forcibly Latinized, who sought to regain communion in both species and vernacular services, but who in the case of the Moravians were led astray by their protector Count Zinzendorf, whose fascination with the wounds of Christ was disturbing and led to a phallic cult being formed by his son, which had to be suppressed causing great scandal, is not Orthodox.  It's not deeply heretical, but it is heterodox.  But we do love it; a huge chunk of our convert base consists of former Anglicans.
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Offline wgw

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #81 on: May 02, 2015, 05:37:52 PM »
OK, so the absence of prayers for the dead lasted from 1549 to 1928, not 1979. I think his point still stands: your church has not been constant or consistent in their confession of faith.

Can you say Iconclastic Controversy?  The Church hierarchy was held captive to a belief deemed heretical, for around two centuries.

A good point. It's rather strange to invoke Bishop Jewel as an authority here, as he would find the Episcopal Church unrecognizable. The fact that Bishop Spong could openly deny the most basic Christian beliefs without any discipline against him is a pretty good indicator that there are no real doctrinal standards in Anglicanism today.

Have you actually listened to, or read any of Spong?  I watched him in a debate with William Lane Craig.  It's true he seems to redefinie many things in a way that's uncomfortable for me but it's hard to pin him down as violating the canons of the Episcopal Church.

You'ld be shocked what sort of stuff gets taught in many Orthodox seminaries, BTW.  If you think its all biblical literalism, you are in for a surprise.

So, the Anglican Church has been held captive to heresy since they were founded? I see, even more a reason to reject them for their perfidy.

Also, nobody here believes that Orthodox seminaries all teach "biblical literalism" Orthodox are well aware of the problems of Scripture. We don't need Sola Scriptura to understand Scripture... which is an oxymoron in any case.

Indeed; since when did we become Biblical literalists?  We're Orthodox, not fundamentalist baptists.  This is the church of typology and allegorical I terpretation following the Alexandrian school, which we favor over Antiochene literalism.
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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #82 on: May 02, 2015, 06:08:08 PM »
You'ld be shocked what sort of stuff gets taught in many Orthodox seminaries, BTW.  If you think its all biblical literalism, you are in for a surprise.

Do tell.
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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #83 on: May 02, 2015, 06:17:55 PM »
It was stated in the Ten Articles, (1536),  that invocation of saints should "be done without any vain superstition, as to think that any saint is more merciful, or will hear us any sooner than Christ; or that any saint doth serve for one thing more than another, or is patron of the same".   Which apostle taught that some saint "is more merciful, or will hear us any sooner than Christ"? 

Indeed, who taught that?  This idea that we put up saints almost as rival gods pops up among those who reject the veneration of saints, but they can't show where anyone authoritatively teaches it.  They might point to pious people who don't know better, and admittedly they exist and need to be taught better, but if they are now a source of theology, why not modern Anglican/Episcopalian bishops?

Quote
How do you know that we did not need to go almost cold-turkey to wean ourselves from supersition?  Are you our spiritual advisor?

If the only way to wean yourselves from superstition is to reject something that ultimately involves an implicit rejection of the resurrection, what are we to make of that? 
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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #84 on: May 02, 2015, 08:37:51 PM »
Mockingbird, I have been reading Jewell's apology.  Besides his minimalist Trinitarian theology, I came across this quote:

"For although we do not touch the body of Christ with teeth and mouth, yet we hold Him fast, and eat Him by faith, by understanding, and by the Spirit"

If we don't touch the body of Christ in our mouths... then how do we receive him?  What is the point of eating in the sacrament if the body of Christ does not touch our mouths?

I don't see this attitude at all compatible with the same Chrysostom who said that we smear the blood of the Lamb upon the doorpost of our mouths.  Note the contrast of body and spirit as well.  This doesn't sound right.  Calvinists have been accused of Gnosticism and Christological heresy before, and this sort of thing doesn't help in refuting that.

On the other hand, the Orthodox call the Eucharist an "unbloodly sacrifice".  I would like to hear Orthodox clarify what is meant by this, if it has any definable meaning at all.

Lastly, I find it a sad irony that the one sacrament that is suppossed to unite us as Christians seems to be the main cause of division that we cannot agree on.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2015, 09:00:31 PM by Daedelus1138 »
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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #85 on: May 02, 2015, 09:45:55 PM »
As far as trying to prove Anglicanism "false" goes, maybe it would be easier to answer whether Anglicanism has the fulness of the Apostolic Faith?

Are you going to get the fulless of the apostolic faith at a Church full of Greeks where the liturgy is in Greek and you only speak English?  I don't see how.  Maybe the fullness of the faith doesn't really exist anywhere.  There are many other alternatives.

Greek Orthodox parishes in English-speaking countries have English translations in the liturgy book. I don't see what the problem is.
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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #86 on: May 02, 2015, 09:47:32 PM »
I cant remember if this has already been brought up to the op, but, how about ordaining women bishops?  Priests are one thing but bishops is an entirely different can of worms.
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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #87 on: May 02, 2015, 09:58:34 PM »
I cant remember if this has already been brought up to the op, but, how about ordaining women bishops?  Priests are one thing but bishops is an entirely different can of worms.

How so?
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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #88 on: May 02, 2015, 10:01:16 PM »

Have you actually listened to, or read any of Spong?  I watched him in a debate with William Lane Craig.  It's true he seems to redefinie many things in a way that's uncomfortable for me but it's hard to pin him down as violating the canons of the Episcopal Church.

As a matter of fact, I have. It's not hard to pin him down. He's a straight up heretic.
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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #89 on: May 02, 2015, 10:10:20 PM »
I'd like to hear more apologetics for Episcopalianism/Anglicanism, especially how it retains continuity with the apostolic faith.
A good place to start is the second part of John Jewel's Apology.

Neither have we any other mediator and intercessor, by whom we may have access to God the Father, than Jesus Christ, in whose only Name all things are obtained at His Father's hand. But it is a shameful part, and full of infidelity, that we see every whore used in the churches of our adversaries, not only in that they will have innumerable sorts of mediators, and that utterly without the authority of God's word (so that, as Jeremy saith, "The saints be now as many in number, or rather above the number of the cities;" and poor men cannot tell to which saint it were best to turn them first; and though there be so many as they cannot be told, yet every one of them hath his peculiar duty and office assigned unto him of these folks, what thing they ought to ask, what to give, and what to bring to pass): but besides this also, in that they do not only wickedly, but also shamefully, call upon the Blessed Virgin, Christ's mother, to have her remember that she is the mother, and to command her Son, and to use a mother's authority over Him.

This is not the apostolic faith. Try again.

It was stated in the Ten Articles, (1536),  that invocation of saints should "be done without any vain superstition, as to think that any saint is more merciful, or will hear us any sooner than Christ; or that any saint doth serve for one thing more than another, or is patron of the same".   Which apostle taught that some saint "is more merciful, or will hear us any sooner than Christ"? 

Now you're just pulling random arguments from the Magic Hat O' Anglican History. The 10 articles were rendered obsolete by 1552. Show me a single BCP that contains the 10 articles, or a single Anglican divine from the reign of Edward VI to the 20th century who upholds the 10 articles as authoritative Anglican doctrine. On the contrary, on numerous points (invocation of saints, eucharist, icons, etc) they are completely overturned in subsequent formularies such as the 39 articles. Not even the Anglo-Catholics tried to dig up the 10 articles as authoritative Anglican doctrine. The 10 articles prove nothing except what a craven, unprincipled bootlicker Thomas Cranmer was.

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How do you know that we did not need to go almost cold-turkey to wean ourselves from supersition?  Are you our spiritual advisor?

Heresy does not wean you from superstition, but only deepens you in it. Your Calvinist sacramentology and your iconoclasm are not remedies for superstition, but are just a deeper leading into error.
“Steel isn't strong, boy, flesh is stronger! That is strength, boy! That is power! What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?  Contemplate this on the tree of woe.” - Elder Thulsa Doom of the Mountain of Power

Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

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