Author Topic: Convince me that Anglicanism is false  (Read 61056 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Daedelus1138

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 991
  • Faith: Lutheran
  • Jurisdiction: ELCA
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #270 on: June 09, 2015, 04:26:58 PM »
How is it Donatist? They don't even believe that Confession is a condition for forgiveness. They just believe it's a nice gesture.

Yup.

Luther realized its impossible for anybody to know with certainty if they had given a good confession or not (many of the points about the 95 Theses are concerning this).  So basically he said just confess whatever is really troubling your conscience.   Lutheran and Anglican priests and pastors would occasionally encourage private confession, but it was seldom required.


« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 04:28:15 PM by Daedelus1138 »
"I have held many things in my hands, and I have lost them all; but whatever I have placed in God's hands, that I still possess."   - Martin Luther

Offline pasadi97

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,110
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #271 on: June 09, 2015, 05:39:20 PM »
If Anglican Church was not started by a King where was Anglican Church in 1st, 2nd century?
God the Father is great. God the Father is good.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 36,101
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #272 on: June 09, 2015, 05:45:47 PM »
Holy Water Deathmatch!!
OCnet is KGB.
I hail Mor Ephrem as our Secretary General.

Quote
Oh you Greeks, you are all dumb!

An Athonite

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #273 on: June 09, 2015, 05:56:56 PM »
If Anglican Church was not started by a King where was Anglican Church in 1st, 2nd century?
Catholic
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline wgw

  • All scorpions must DIE!!!
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,816
  • This icon is of St. Athansius.
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #274 on: June 09, 2015, 06:05:45 PM »
How is it Donatist? They don't even believe that Confession is a condition for forgiveness. They just believe it's a nice gesture.

Yup.

Luther realized its impossible for anybody to know with certainty if they had given a good confession or not (many of the points about the 95 Theses are concerning this).  So basically he said just confess whatever is really troubling your conscience.   Lutheran and Anglican priests and pastors would occasionally encourage private confession, but it was seldom required.

Note that Orthodox theology regarding confession is different, and more flexible.  A Russian priest when I was in EO land whose command of English was poor gave me a laminated sheet which inckuded a list of all conceivable categories of sin to confess, which I did; I realized in a certain sense I was guilty of all of them.  It also advised me to mention to the priest anything troubling me, I mentioned my nightmares, and they got better for a time.

St. John of Kronstadt did a form of general confession, with everyone shouring their sins simultaneously.

Ex opere operato began not regarding confession specifically, but baptism and the Eucharist, and indeed all the Sacraments including confession; the Donatists argued that only a worthy priest could confect the Sacraments.  Which is a viewpoint related to Pelagianism, the heresy that we ourselves must overcome sin without divine grace and are capable of ridding ourselves of evil, on our own, in this life.  St. Augustine, realizing that there were perhaps no absolutely worthy priests other than our Lord, and if a holy priest or monk had through divine grace suppressed the evil passions, this would be known with certainty only by God, felt compelled to argue the Sacraments are effective in and of themselves.

I think the Orthodox would generally agree with this, with the understanding that some require an ordained priest to be administered, and this was one of the better contributions of St. Augustine to Patristic theology.

Ex opere operato, though believed in by the Scholastics, was not in any sense uniquely their idea.  The sole downside of it is that if misinterpreted, it can give rise to a view that the sacraments a re amagical theurgy, where one simply has to say certain words to compel the action of God; this is not true, and a misintepretation of the concept.

Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline Daedelus1138

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 991
  • Faith: Lutheran
  • Jurisdiction: ELCA
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #275 on: June 09, 2015, 07:14:47 PM »
I was objecting to the idea of the 4th Lateran Council, that it is possible for a person to know all their sins, and that they must confess all of them.  That is what Lutherans and Anglicans would be arguing against.  Confession is used as a way for people to have a private experience of absolution by having the Word (in the Lutheran sense) applied to them, but it is not required.   I'm not saying its a bad thing, in some cases it saves peoples faith, but the Roman Catholic teaching on the absolute necessity of confessing every sin has significant pastoral problems, to say the least.  And it doesn't fit with Reformation theology.
"I have held many things in my hands, and I have lost them all; but whatever I have placed in God's hands, that I still possess."   - Martin Luther

Offline biro

  • Site Supporter
  • Protostrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,085
  • Excelsior
    • Archive of Our Own works
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #276 on: June 09, 2015, 07:19:29 PM »
In my earlier church, at the end of Confession, I would say, "...and these are all the sins I can remember." They accepted it.
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works Warning: stories have mature content.

"Some people only feel good when they are praising the Lord." - Coptic bishop

Mt. 21:31 Jesus said to them, ÔÇťAssuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you."

"Our Lord will *never* stop loving us." - Fr. Michael P.

Offline byhisgrace

  • AOCB
  • Site Supporter
  • OC.net guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,265
  • Memory Eternal to my Younger Brother
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOARCH
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #277 on: June 09, 2015, 07:49:49 PM »
I was objecting to the idea of the 4th Lateran Council, that it is possible for a person to know all their sins, and that they must confess all of them.  That is what Lutherans and Anglicans would be arguing against.  Confession is used as a way for people to have a private experience of absolution by having the Word (in the Lutheran sense) applied to them, but it is not required.   I'm not saying its a bad thing, in some cases it saves peoples faith, but the Roman Catholic teaching on the absolute necessity of confessing every sin has significant pastoral problems, to say the least.  And it doesn't fit with Reformation theology.

Well, if you want to debate about the fourth Lateran Council, take it to the Catholic forum.
Oh Holy Apostle, St. John, pray for us

Offline byhisgrace

  • AOCB
  • Site Supporter
  • OC.net guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,265
  • Memory Eternal to my Younger Brother
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOARCH
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #278 on: June 09, 2015, 09:52:47 PM »
Certain church fathers encouraged confession of sins, but only to unburden ones conscience.
Can I have a source for this?
Oh Holy Apostle, St. John, pray for us

Offline pasadi97

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,110
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #279 on: June 10, 2015, 06:17:35 AM »
Actually in 1st and 2nd century Anglican Church was orthodox with what orthodoxy believe now.
Encouraging Anglican Church of today means encouraging the idea that Anglicans don't deserve best, that is orthodoxy means giving a disservice to anglican community.

Returning to the Bible and Fathers did not happen since both Bible and Fathers do not contradict orthodoxy so in fact was returning to error.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 06:21:17 AM by pasadi97 »
God the Father is great. God the Father is good.

Offline pasadi97

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,110
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #280 on: June 10, 2015, 07:07:48 AM »
Actually no document tell about Anglican Church in 1st and 2nd century because Anglican Church did not exist then, the king that made it not being born.
Also the human teachings that differ today from orthodoxy were not there since people that made them were not born in 1st or 2nd century. Filioloque not there in 1st or 2nd century and so on.

If Anglicanism assumes as true the teachings of England Orthodox Church in first 1000 years, it has to renounce to today human teachings contradicting them
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 07:10:41 AM by pasadi97 »
God the Father is great. God the Father is good.

Offline Cyrillic

  • Laser Basileus.
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,710
  • St. Theodoret of Cyrrhus, pray for us!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #281 on: June 10, 2015, 07:35:13 AM »
ex opere operatio

Not this discussion again.

It's ex opere operato btw.

The Anglican (and Lutheran?) understanding of the issue is donatist.

How is it Donatist? They don't even believe that Confession is a condition for forgiveness. They just believe it's a nice gesture.

Their sacramental theology is reverse donatism in the sense that they believe the efficacy of sacraments is dependant on the beliefs and worthiness of the recipient. The donatists believed the efficacy of sacraments depended on the beliefs and worthiness of the priest. You can most clearly see it with the Anglicans' beliefs on the eucharist: "It 'is' Christ's body and blood if you believe it is that"
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 07:35:49 AM by Cyrillic »

Offline Daedelus1138

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 991
  • Faith: Lutheran
  • Jurisdiction: ELCA
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #282 on: June 10, 2015, 07:58:18 AM »
Certain church fathers encouraged confession of sins, but only to unburden ones conscience.
Can I have a source for this?

Check out the Catholic Catechism (1447), it admits that the practice of confession developed into its current forum.  To accept the Roman interpretation of confession, you have to first be persuaded that the Bishop of Rome holds supremacy and infallibility in matters of faith and morals.

Early Christians only required penance for apostasy, idolatry, adultery, and murder.  Even then it was more about what the Church did for discipline, than some kind of limitation on God's mercy- which is exactly how the Catechism of the Catholic Church presents it as being (it's juridical).  If you have a mortal sin and you don't manage to have "perfect contrition" (how would a person even know what that means- does anybody really love God perfectly?), and you were to die before you could reach the confessional, your soul is lost. 

No wonder Luther spent hours in the confessional.  Actually, what he was doing was quite reasonable if the presuppositions were true.  Why risk your soul walking around with imperfect contrition when you could die any second?  Religious doubt and scruples continue to be a problem among devout catholics, and the only reason its not more common is because most Catholics are either nominal and don't know what their church teaches, or a spiritual advisor or priest will relativize the teachings to the situation of the individual.

Their sacramental theology is reverse donatism in the sense that they believe the efficacy of sacraments is dependant on the beliefs and worthiness of the recipient. The donatists believed the efficacy of sacraments depended on the beliefs and worthiness of the priest. You can most clearly see it with the Anglicans' beliefs on the eucharist: "It 'is' Christ's body and blood if you believe it is that"

No, that's not what Anglicans teach in the doctrine of receptionism.  They teach that the bread and wine are Christ body and blood if faithfully received.  Even then, I would say that's one interpretation of the articles.  But nowhere does it suggest that people wish Christ's body and blood into existence.  The point is that the unfaithful do not partake of Christ.

Now days the articles are not considered normative, they are considered historical documents that give a guide to Anglican beliefs in the 16-17th century.  The modern Episcopal catechism suggests an objective view of the sacrament similar to Lutherans, and that is how many Anglicans interpreted the 39 Articles in the past
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 08:15:06 AM by Daedelus1138 »
"I have held many things in my hands, and I have lost them all; but whatever I have placed in God's hands, that I still possess."   - Martin Luther

Offline Cyrillic

  • Laser Basileus.
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,710
  • St. Theodoret of Cyrrhus, pray for us!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #283 on: June 10, 2015, 08:22:46 AM »
No, that's not what Anglicans teach in the doctrine of receptionism.  They teach that the bread and wine are Christ body and blood if faithfully received.  [...] But nowhere does it suggest that people wish Christ's body and blood into existence.  The point is that the unfaithful do not partake of Christ.

I see no difference.

Now days the articles are not considered normative

Nothing is normative in the Anglican Church anymore.

Offline Daedelus1138

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 991
  • Faith: Lutheran
  • Jurisdiction: ELCA
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #284 on: June 10, 2015, 08:34:21 AM »
No, that's not what Anglicans teach in the doctrine of receptionism.  They teach that the bread and wine are Christ body and blood if faithfully received.  [...] But nowhere does it suggest that people wish Christ's body and blood into existence.  The point is that the unfaithful do not partake of Christ.

I see no difference. 

Faith is not self-generated by an act of ones own individual will, it is a gift from God.  Therefore the person is not wishing Christ's body and blood into existence.
"I have held many things in my hands, and I have lost them all; but whatever I have placed in God's hands, that I still possess."   - Martin Luther

Offline Cyrillic

  • Laser Basileus.
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,710
  • St. Theodoret of Cyrrhus, pray for us!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #285 on: June 10, 2015, 08:36:22 AM »
No, that's not what Anglicans teach in the doctrine of receptionism.  They teach that the bread and wine are Christ body and blood if faithfully received.  [...] But nowhere does it suggest that people wish Christ's body and blood into existence.  The point is that the unfaithful do not partake of Christ.

I see no difference. 

Faith is not self-generated by an act of ones own individual will, it is a gift from God.  Therefore the person is not wishing Christ's body and blood into existence.

That's just sophistry.

Offline Daedelus1138

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 991
  • Faith: Lutheran
  • Jurisdiction: ELCA
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #286 on: June 10, 2015, 08:38:52 AM »
No, that's not what Anglicans teach in the doctrine of receptionism.  They teach that the bread and wine are Christ body and blood if faithfully received.  [...] But nowhere does it suggest that people wish Christ's body and blood into existence.  The point is that the unfaithful do not partake of Christ.

I see no difference. 

Faith is not self-generated by an act of ones own individual will, it is a gift from God.  Therefore the person is not wishing Christ's body and blood into existence.

That's just sophistry.

Really? Orthodox do not also believe that faith is a gift from God?  You really believe a human being is capable of coming to God apart from his grace?
"I have held many things in my hands, and I have lost them all; but whatever I have placed in God's hands, that I still possess."   - Martin Luther

Offline Cyrillic

  • Laser Basileus.
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,710
  • St. Theodoret of Cyrrhus, pray for us!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #287 on: June 10, 2015, 08:42:03 AM »
No, that's not what Anglicans teach in the doctrine of receptionism.  They teach that the bread and wine are Christ body and blood if faithfully received.  [...] But nowhere does it suggest that people wish Christ's body and blood into existence.  The point is that the unfaithful do not partake of Christ.

I see no difference. 

Faith is not self-generated by an act of ones own individual will, it is a gift from God.  Therefore the person is not wishing Christ's body and blood into existence.

That's just sophistry.

Really? Orthodox do not also believe that faith is a gift from God?  You really believe a human being is capable of coming to God apart from his grace?

More sophistry.

Offline Minnesotan

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,329
  • Milo Thatch is the ONLY Milo for me. #FreeAtlantis
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #288 on: June 10, 2015, 09:56:04 AM »
Actually no document tell about Anglican Church in 1st and 2nd century because Anglican Church did not exist then, the king that made it not being born.
Also the human teachings that differ today from orthodoxy were not there since people that made them were not born in 1st or 2nd century. Filioloque not there in 1st or 2nd century and so on.

If Anglicanism assumes as true the teachings of England Orthodox Church in first 1000 years, it has to renounce to today human teachings contradicting them

Well, technically, neither was the Creed.
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline wgw

  • All scorpions must DIE!!!
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,816
  • This icon is of St. Athansius.
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #289 on: June 10, 2015, 03:01:43 PM »
No, that's not what Anglicans teach in the doctrine of receptionism.  They teach that the bread and wine are Christ body and blood if faithfully received.  [...] But nowhere does it suggest that people wish Christ's body and blood into existence.  The point is that the unfaithful do not partake of Christ.

I see no difference. 

Faith is not self-generated by an act of ones own individual will, it is a gift from God.  Therefore the person is not wishing Christ's body and blood into existence.

That's just sophistry.

Really? Orthodox do not also believe that faith is a gift from God?  You really believe a human being is capable of coming to God apart from his grace?

No, we dont believe that.  Ss. John Cassian and Augustine spent much energy refuting that theory, known as Pelagianism.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline Marc1152

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 14,838
  • Probiotic .. Antibiotic
  • Jurisdiction: Rocor
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #290 on: June 10, 2015, 03:16:28 PM »
One problem is that there is so much latitude between what is taught different places. On the east end of town, the Anglicans are very conservative and have decent enough Christology. But on the West end of town, they teach what's popular lately.

Our Priest and his family and many in our Parish ( not me) are converts from Anglicanism.. The last straw for our Matushka was when a lesbian was made rector of her parish. She carried around a crucifix that had a female Christ on it.

"Oh waiter..I'll take my check now"
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline wgw

  • All scorpions must DIE!!!
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,816
  • This icon is of St. Athansius.
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #291 on: June 10, 2015, 03:29:08 PM »
One problem is that there is so much latitude between what is taught different places. On the east end of town, the Anglicans are very conservative and have decent enough Christology. But on the West end of town, they teach what's popular lately.

Our Priest and his family and many in our Parish ( not me) are converts from Anglicanism.. The last straw for our Matushka was when a lesbian was made rector of her parish. She carried around a crucifix that had a female Christ on it.

"Oh waiter..I'll take my check now"

Indeed, to use a phrase popular among Episcopalians, "Thats a hill I would die on."
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 15,089
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #292 on: June 10, 2015, 04:48:30 PM »
ex opere operatio

Not this discussion again.

It's ex opere operato btw.

The Anglican (and Lutheran?) understanding of the issue is donatist.

How is it Donatist? They don't even believe that Confession is a condition for forgiveness. They just believe it's a nice gesture.

Their sacramental theology is reverse donatism in the sense that they believe the efficacy of sacraments is dependant on the beliefs and worthiness of the recipient. The donatists believed the efficacy of sacraments depended on the beliefs and worthiness of the priest. You can most clearly see it with the Anglicans' beliefs on the eucharist: "It 'is' Christ's body and blood if you believe it is that"

Ah, ok. I guess that makes sense.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 15,089
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #293 on: June 10, 2015, 04:58:25 PM »
No, that's not what Anglicans teach in the doctrine of receptionism.  They teach that the bread and wine are Christ body and blood if faithfully received.  [...] But nowhere does it suggest that people wish Christ's body and blood into existence.  The point is that the unfaithful do not partake of Christ.

I see no difference. 

Faith is not self-generated by an act of ones own individual will, it is a gift from God.  Therefore the person is not wishing Christ's body and blood into existence.

That's just sophistry.

Really? Orthodox do not also believe that faith is a gift from God?  You really believe a human being is capable of coming to God apart from his grace?

I think the Anglican view is too individualistic. Christ is objectively present in the Eucharist because of the faith of the priest with the congregation ("wherever two or more..."). Those who encounter Him faithlessly do so to their own peril.

It's like the Orthodox view of Hell. God is still present but is a fire to those who don't love Him.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Daedelus1138

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 991
  • Faith: Lutheran
  • Jurisdiction: ELCA
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #294 on: June 10, 2015, 07:45:41 PM »
I would not say receptionism is the Anglican view.  There really isn't a single Anglican Eucharistic theology, though in the Episcopal church, some kind of realist understanding of the sacrament is the most common.
"I have held many things in my hands, and I have lost them all; but whatever I have placed in God's hands, that I still possess."   - Martin Luther

Offline The young fogey

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,181
  • Milhouse van Houten in a Raymond Chandler novel
    • A conservative blog for peace
  • Faith: Catholic
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #295 on: June 10, 2015, 08:02:10 PM »
There really isn't a single Anglican Eucharistic theology.

True. Which convinces me Anglicanism is false.
"You always were a historically illiterate jerk, John." - OicwR doyen Stuart Koehl

Formed by Anglicanism and the traditional Latin Mass. Russian icons and Byzantine prayers at home; occasional Saturday Vespers at Russian Orthodox churches as Communion prep; Ukrainian Catholic parish on Sundays.

High-church libertarian
Blog

Offline Daedelus1138

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 991
  • Faith: Lutheran
  • Jurisdiction: ELCA
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #296 on: June 10, 2015, 08:18:36 PM »
There really isn't a single Anglican Eucharistic theology.

True. Which convinces me Anglicanism is false.

I am beginning to have a low opinion of this forum. 

I went to an Episcopal healing service today.  You know what I found?  Quiet, dignified sanctity. A broad love for Christians of all confessions.   When the canon stooped down to pray for the sick at the altar and anoint them, I could feel the presence of God.  I walked out of the service thanking God that he was still raising up servants like that.

I don't see the point in trashing other churches just because they don't present a simple, easy, paint-by-numbers solution to Christian faith.  In my experience people that are selling those simple solutions are usually selling flim-flam.
"I have held many things in my hands, and I have lost them all; but whatever I have placed in God's hands, that I still possess."   - Martin Luther

Offline The young fogey

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,181
  • Milhouse van Houten in a Raymond Chandler novel
    • A conservative blog for peace
  • Faith: Catholic
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #297 on: June 10, 2015, 08:44:38 PM »
There really isn't a single Anglican Eucharistic theology.

True. Which convinces me Anglicanism is false.

I am beginning to have a low opinion of this forum. 

I went to an Episcopal healing service today.  You know what I found?  Quiet, dignified sanctity. A broad love for Christians of all confessions.   When the canon stooped down to pray for the sick at the altar and anoint them, I could feel the presence of God.  I walked out of the service thanking God that he was still raising up servants like that.

I don't see the point in trashing other churches just because they don't present a simple, easy, paint-by-numbers solution to Christian faith.  In my experience people that are selling those simple solutions are usually selling flim-flam.

First, seriously, I wouldn't deny the love and grace of that Episcopal healing service, nor I think would many others there. God founded the church; he isn't limited to it. But there is the church and there is not the church. Anglicanism is not the church. But you knew you'd read that here; the Orthodox Church has the same one-true-church claim as the Catholic Church, traditional Lutherans, and a few others.

Guess we're not cool enough for you. Back to painting by numbers (worshipping idols, us Catholics selling indulgences, etc.).
"You always were a historically illiterate jerk, John." - OicwR doyen Stuart Koehl

Formed by Anglicanism and the traditional Latin Mass. Russian icons and Byzantine prayers at home; occasional Saturday Vespers at Russian Orthodox churches as Communion prep; Ukrainian Catholic parish on Sundays.

High-church libertarian
Blog

Offline Daedelus1138

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 991
  • Faith: Lutheran
  • Jurisdiction: ELCA
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #298 on: June 10, 2015, 09:46:56 PM »
Guess we're not cool enough for you. Back to painting by numbers (worshipping idols, us Catholics selling indulgences, etc.).

Those things don't bother me.  It's the triumphalism and authoritarianism that bothers me. 
"I have held many things in my hands, and I have lost them all; but whatever I have placed in God's hands, that I still possess."   - Martin Luther

Offline byhisgrace

  • AOCB
  • Site Supporter
  • OC.net guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,265
  • Memory Eternal to my Younger Brother
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOARCH
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #299 on: June 10, 2015, 09:55:21 PM »
Certain church fathers encouraged confession of sins, but only to unburden ones conscience.
Can I have a source for this?

Check out the Catholic Catechism (1447), it admits that the practice of confession developed into its current forum.  To accept the Roman interpretation of confession, you have to first be persuaded that the Bishop of Rome holds supremacy and infallibility in matters of faith and morals.

Early Christians only required penance for apostasy, idolatry, adultery, and murder.  Even then it was more about what the Church did for discipline, than some kind of limitation on God's mercy- which is exactly how the Catechism of the Catholic Church presents it as being (it's juridical).  If you have a mortal sin and you don't manage to have "perfect contrition" (how would a person even know what that means- does anybody really love God perfectly?), and you were to die before you could reach the confessional, your soul is lost. 

No wonder Luther spent hours in the confessional.  Actually, what he was doing was quite reasonable if the presuppositions were true.  Why risk your soul walking around with imperfect contrition when you could die any second?  Religious doubt and scruples continue to be a problem among devout catholics, and the only reason its not more common is because most Catholics are either nominal and don't know what their church teaches, or a spiritual advisor or priest will relativize the teachings to the situation of the individual.

That's not exactly what I asked. Do you have any quotes from the Early Church Fathers that suggests that the only purpose of confession is to clear ones conscience, not to receive the forgiveness of sin, as a Sacrament?

Disclaimer: I'm not trying to pick a fight, in case you're suspecting that. I'm genuinely interested.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 09:56:46 PM by byhisgrace »
Oh Holy Apostle, St. John, pray for us

Offline byhisgrace

  • AOCB
  • Site Supporter
  • OC.net guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,265
  • Memory Eternal to my Younger Brother
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOARCH
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #300 on: June 10, 2015, 09:58:29 PM »
Guess we're not cool enough for you. Back to painting by numbers (worshipping idols, us Catholics selling indulgences, etc.).

Those things don't bother me.  It's the triumphalism and authoritarianism that bothers me.
Same here, though we may disagree on what we consider as "triumphalism" ;)
Oh Holy Apostle, St. John, pray for us

Offline Daedelus1138

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 991
  • Faith: Lutheran
  • Jurisdiction: ELCA
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #301 on: June 10, 2015, 10:16:51 PM »
Disclaimer: I'm not trying to pick a fight, in case you're suspecting that. I'm genuinely interested.

Direct quotes?  No, not really.  I think I've read a quote by Chrysostom and a few others a long time ago that was talking about confessing to clergy as a way to clear one's conscience, and the dangers of going around with a searing conscience.  I would tend to agree, confession is good- especially confessing weighty matters that genuinely bother ones conscience.  The Fathers don't seem to support the Roman view of confession, just a vague sense that it is beneficial sometimes.  But in other places they assert that sin is dealt with through acts of charity and prayer.

Anselm suggested at one point, for people with troubled consciences at the point of death- not confession, but faith in Christ's Cross.  Putting confession in place of faith in Christ's finished work is part of the problem, it's the breeding ground for scrupulosity, because then it makes confession all about what a sinful, weak human being can do.

« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 10:21:59 PM by Daedelus1138 »
"I have held many things in my hands, and I have lost them all; but whatever I have placed in God's hands, that I still possess."   - Martin Luther

Offline wgw

  • All scorpions must DIE!!!
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,816
  • This icon is of St. Athansius.
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #302 on: June 11, 2015, 03:39:16 AM »
Daedelus, I think its very important you study the difference, which is vast, between the Orthodox mystery of reconciliation, and the Catholic sacrament of confession and penance.

Now interestingly I have never been assigned a penance after making a confession in the Orthodox Church.  Whereas my understanding is that penances are, or were, a normal part of RC confession.

The Apostolic Canons, through the canons of St. John the Faster, show us that penances in the early church were dramatic and aweful, but never involved corporal punishment as in Judaism or Zoroastrianism.  The concept of private Tariff Penances I believe orginated among the Celtic monasteries of Ireland, some of which followed the very strict rule of St. Benedict.  I believe the relaxed and supportive way I have been treated during this sacrament is indicative of how Christianity has reshaped society for the better.  Humiliating penances are now minly the province of fundamentalist Calvinist churches that force members to sign contracts, and emforce "church discipline" which can amount to shunning; 9Marks is the worst offender of this class, led by Rev. Marl Dever's Capitol Hill Baptist Church, and Mars Hill of Seattle was their most famous member churhc until the recent implosion.  And 9Marks doesn't seem to like us very much: http://thewartburgwatch.com/2014/07/21/9-marks-deeply-disturbing-remarks-aimed-at-roman-catholics-and-intervarsity/

I would say reconciliation has been a blessing to me and you have nothing to fear from this sacrament.  And all sins committed prior to reception are washed away through the waters of baptism or the Seal of the Holy Spirit.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline wgw

  • All scorpions must DIE!!!
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,816
  • This icon is of St. Athansius.
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #303 on: June 11, 2015, 03:51:40 AM »
I was objecting to the idea of the 4th Lateran Council, that it is possible for a person to know all their sins, and that they must confess all of them.  That is what Lutherans and Anglicans would be arguing against.  Confession is used as a way for people to have a private experience of absolution by having the Word (in the Lutheran sense) applied to them, but it is not required.   I'm not saying its a bad thing, in some cases it saves peoples faith, but the Roman Catholic teaching on the absolute necessity of confessing every sin has significant pastoral problems, to say the least.  And it doesn't fit with Reformation theology.

By the way, just to be clear, this is not Orthodox theology.

Have you read The Orthodox Church and The Orthodox Way by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware yet?  Also as a definitive reference, do not ignore St. John Damascene's Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, the Philokalia and Orthodox Dogmatic Theology by Pomaranaky. 
But the books I suggest you read the most right now to get a grasp on the idea of repentance in Orthodoxy and the meaning of the Sacrament of Reconciliation are the aforementioned Philokalia pf Ss. Nicodemus and Macarius, the Ladder of Divine Ascent by St. John Climacus, the anonymous Way of the Pilgrim, the Sayings of the Desert Fathers, and St. Seraphim of Sarov on the Acquisition of the Holy Spirit.

I cannot stress enough that the hair shirt, the cilice, and self flagellation, came from RCism.  One could even argue an exegesis of Canon I of Nicea is possible that would make these devices a disqualifier for the priesthpod, as the wording of the canon says "mutilates himself" amd it is the Ancient Epitome that explains this as meaning castration.  It's a stretch, and not my view, but I think such a view wherein committing acts of violence as substitutes for fasting and anstinence against ones person is inherently a form of self-murder.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,637
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #304 on: June 11, 2015, 07:55:58 AM »

Have you read The Orthodox Church and The Orthodox Way by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware yet?  Also as a definitive reference, do not ignore St. John Damascene's Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, the Philokalia and Orthodox Dogmatic Theology by Pomaranaky. 
But the books I suggest you read the most right now to get a grasp on the idea of repentance in Orthodoxy and the meaning of the Sacrament of Reconciliation are the aforementioned Philokalia pf Ss. Nicodemus and Macarius, the Ladder of Divine Ascent by St. John Climacus, the anonymous Way of the Pilgrim, the Sayings of the Desert Fathers, and St. Seraphim of Sarov on the Acquisition of the Holy Spirit.

The Philokalia and the Ladder of Divine Ascent are advanced texts, and geared towards monastics, not laymen, and certainly not inquirers or catechumens. It is no accident that a great many priests will dissuade those new to the faith from reading them until their spiritual growth and knowledge of Orthodoxy in doctrine and practise has sufficiently progressed.

Far better to attend as many services as one can, and, in the matter of confession and the nature of sin, to become familiar with the pre- and post-communion prayers, found in most good prayer books.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Minnesotan

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,329
  • Milo Thatch is the ONLY Milo for me. #FreeAtlantis
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #305 on: June 11, 2015, 10:51:44 AM »
I cannot stress enough that the hair shirt, the cilice, and self flagellation, came from RCism.  One could even argue an exegesis of Canon I of Nicea is possible that would make these devices a disqualifier for the priesthpod, as the wording of the canon says "mutilates himself" amd it is the Ancient Epitome that explains this as meaning castration.  It's a stretch, and not my view, but I think such a view wherein committing acts of violence as substitutes for fasting and anstinence against ones person is inherently a form of self-murder.

Although the distinction between "acts of violence" against the self, and more acceptable forms of asceticism isn't always clear-cut. Some Protestants reject all forms of asceticism, including fasting, as being self-harm.
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline Daedelus1138

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 991
  • Faith: Lutheran
  • Jurisdiction: ELCA
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #306 on: June 11, 2015, 12:24:58 PM »
By the way, just to be clear, this is not Orthodox theology.

... But the books I suggest you read the most right now to get a grasp on the idea of repentance in Orthodoxy and the meaning of the Sacrament of Reconciliation are the aforementioned Philokalia pf Ss. Nicodemus and Macarius, .

I don't understand the difference.  It is true Orthodox do not teach that a person must articulate the number of their sins, but isn't it true the Orthodox teach the necessity of confessing all of ones sins before death?   How is that different from Roman Catholicism?
« Last Edit: June 11, 2015, 12:26:48 PM by Daedelus1138 »
"I have held many things in my hands, and I have lost them all; but whatever I have placed in God's hands, that I still possess."   - Martin Luther

Offline wgw

  • All scorpions must DIE!!!
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,816
  • This icon is of St. Athansius.
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #307 on: June 11, 2015, 12:56:54 PM »
Even within Roman Catholicism if one dies intending to confess a given sin, in a state of pure premetance or perfect contrition, that is conosdered adequete.

From an Orthodox perspectove I would say our faith unlike Protestantism gives us nothing like unconditional election or eternal security; since we cannt recall our sins we must focus that much more on repentance and throw ourself at the mercy of the Lord.  Read the story of the death of Abba Sisoes for a clear answer to your question.

Then if you can find a copy of the Philokalia, you can immerse yourself in the concept of repentance or metanoia as a lifestyle or considition of being that is simultaneously positive, healing and transformative.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2015, 12:57:31 PM by wgw »
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline Daedelus1138

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 991
  • Faith: Lutheran
  • Jurisdiction: ELCA
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #308 on: June 11, 2015, 03:08:10 PM »
From an Orthodox perspectove I would say our faith unlike Protestantism gives us nothing like unconditional election or eternal security

Outside of Calvinism and Calvinistic theological systems or sentiments, I don't believe any Protestant preaches those things.  But Protestants seem to be positive in having confidence in God's grace (mercy).  That seems to be something Orthodox do not want to emphasize.  I can only speculate as to why.

Quote
since we cannt recall our sins we must focus that much more on repentance and throw ourself at the mercy of the Lord. 

Isn't that what Protestants advocate behind justification sola fide?

It isn't just about recalling ones sins.  Suppose a person is terrified of confessing their sins to a stranger, perhaps due to years of psychological or other abuse, or traumatic experiences at the confessional in the past (it happens).  You think God is going to ignore their repentance?  I don't think so.  And yet that is the message that mandatory auricular confession often sends, people are anxious facing the prospect of dying unconfessed, without confidence in God's mercy.   At least in the West, this has a proven history.  That is what Protestants were reacting to.

Quote
  Then if you can find a copy of the Philokalia, you can immerse yourself in the concept of repentance or metanoia as a lifestyle or considition of being that is simultaneously positive, healing and transformative.

I see the Orthodox being vague on the question of justification.  Orthodox seem reluctant to look at a sinner and say "God loves you, no matter how bad you are".  Some people need to hear that, desperately.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2015, 03:13:25 PM by Daedelus1138 »
"I have held many things in my hands, and I have lost them all; but whatever I have placed in God's hands, that I still possess."   - Martin Luther

Offline Cyrillic

  • Laser Basileus.
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,710
  • St. Theodoret of Cyrrhus, pray for us!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #309 on: June 11, 2015, 03:10:42 PM »
I see the Orthodox being vague on the question of justification. 

You confuse "vague" with "not expressing it in your theological lingo".

Orthodox seem reluctant to look at a sinner and say "God loves you, no matter how bad you are".

You confuse not saying "God loves you, no matter how bad you are" with not saying "God loves you, so you can keep on doing your favorite sins".


Quote
since we cannt recall our sins we must focus that much more on repentance and throw ourself at the mercy of the Lord. 

Isn't that what Protestants advocate behind justification sola fide?

No.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2015, 03:12:47 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline Daedelus1138

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 991
  • Faith: Lutheran
  • Jurisdiction: ELCA
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #310 on: June 11, 2015, 03:24:45 PM »
You confuse not saying "God loves you, no matter how bad you are" with not saying "God loves you, so you can keep on doing your favorite sins". 

That's not at all what Lutherans are saying, I can tell you that.  However, having faith in our ability not to sin is not going to save us - we are sinners, it's what we do.  This world is not a place of justice, as Luther says, in this life we will sin.  So it's better to sin boldly, but to have faith more boldly still, and to pray boldly, because we are great sinners.

Quote
Quote
since we cannt recall our sins we must focus that much more on repentance and throw ourself at the mercy of the Lord. 

Quote
Isn't that what Protestants advocate behind justification sola fide?

Quote
No.
 

What do you think Protestants do?  How are you not justifying yourself by your works of religion?   Because you have found the true denomination, hold the correct doctrines and do the right things, you are justified, but a Protestant with faith in Christ is not?
« Last Edit: June 11, 2015, 03:27:22 PM by Daedelus1138 »
"I have held many things in my hands, and I have lost them all; but whatever I have placed in God's hands, that I still possess."   - Martin Luther

Offline Cyrillic

  • Laser Basileus.
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,710
  • St. Theodoret of Cyrrhus, pray for us!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #311 on: June 11, 2015, 03:28:39 PM »
You confuse not saying "God loves you, no matter how bad you are" with not saying "God loves you, so you can keep on doing your favorite sins". 

That's not at all what Lutherans are saying, I can tell you that.  However, having faith in our ability not to sin is not going to save us - we are sinners, it's what we do.  This world is not a place of justice, as Luther says, in this life we will sin.  So it's better to sin boldly, but to have faith more boldly still, and to pray boldly, because we are great sinners.

That's even worse.

Because you have found the true denomination, hold the correct doctrines and do the right things, you are justified

No.

What do you mean with "justified"?

Offline Daedelus1138

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 991
  • Faith: Lutheran
  • Jurisdiction: ELCA
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #312 on: June 11, 2015, 03:32:09 PM »
What do you mean with "justified"?

Being forgiven and accepted by God, being saved from everlasting damnation.  That is what Protestants mean by "justified".
« Last Edit: June 11, 2015, 03:33:15 PM by Daedelus1138 »
"I have held many things in my hands, and I have lost them all; but whatever I have placed in God's hands, that I still possess."   - Martin Luther

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,819
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #313 on: June 11, 2015, 03:33:27 PM »


That's not at all what Lutherans are saying, I can tell you that.  However, having faith in our ability not to sin is not going to save us - we are sinners, it's what we do.  This world is not a place of justice, as Luther says, in this life we will sin.  So it's better to sin boldly, but to have faith more boldly still, and to pray boldly, because we are great sinners.
I missed the part of the Bible that tells us to sin boldly. What verse is that again? Coming from a sola scriptura tradition, I expect that they have a handy verse at the ready for such a position.

Quote
What do you think Protestants do?  How are you not justifying yourself by your works of religion?   Because you have found the true denomination, hold the correct doctrines and do the right things, you are justified, but a Protestant with faith in Christ is not?
No one has taken a position whether Protestants are justified or not. We don't even take a definitive position on our own salvation, why would we take one on a Protestant's? We are justified by Christ, not by our works, not by our correct doctrines and not because of a "true denomination" (whatever that means). The Church is the Body of Christ.
God bless!

Offline Daedelus1138

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 991
  • Faith: Lutheran
  • Jurisdiction: ELCA
Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #314 on: June 11, 2015, 03:41:07 PM »
I missed the part of the Bible that tells us to sin boldly. What verse is that again? Coming from a sola scriptura tradition, I expect that they have a handy verse at the ready for such a position. 

Luther never taught sola scriptura.  It is a product of later Protestant scholasticism.  And sola scriptura doesn't mean that theology is irrelevant, that is Biblicism, something mainline Lutherans such as the ELCA and World Lutheran Federation rejects.

Luther in his own life realized he was a sinner and in the depths of his being, at war with God- with another law at work within him, and yet, he wanted to find a way to find peace with God.  The answer came to him in the Psalms ("deliver me in your righteousness"), when he realized that the righteousness of God delivers sinners, rather than judges them.  This new understanding of righteousness lead him to read Paul in a new light, differently from how his peers interpreted Paul.

If you accept that we are justified by Christ and not our works, then we are in agreement.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2015, 03:42:42 PM by Daedelus1138 »
"I have held many things in my hands, and I have lost them all; but whatever I have placed in God's hands, that I still possess."   - Martin Luther