Author Topic: Convince me that Anglicanism is false  (Read 61205 times)

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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #180 on: May 30, 2015, 10:44:07 PM »
Quote
As Protestants increasingly congregate in megachurches, I see more potential parishes pop up.

Actually, megachurches are in decline. Evangelicals are turning to coffee house-like environments and warehouses.

Don't forget "gigachurches", which is basically a single church split between 10 or more smaller campuses. Frequently, they all share a single senior pastor whose sermons are televised in all of them.

NewSpring (currently the second-fastest-growing church in the USA) is like that, as was Mars Hill before it shut down.

Anathema, anathema, anathema!   Seriously, since these gigaxhurches are invariably iconoclastic; Mars Hill certainly was.  So one could go down the Synodikon with a checklist and probably find it at least half full in the case of these gigachurches.

Mark Driscoll, interestingly enough, was raised Catholic and originally wanted to be a priest but objected to the celibacy requirement, which is why he became Calvinist instead. At one point early on he actually wanted Mars Hill to be an "ancient future" type of church with some Catholic influences, but eventually scrapped that idea.

I seriously wonder why he never considered Orthodoxy along the way.
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Offline Tikhon29605

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #181 on: May 31, 2015, 01:20:09 PM »
Quote
As Protestants increasingly congregate in megachurches, I see more potential parishes pop up.

Actually, megachurches are in decline. Evangelicals are turning to coffee house-like environments and warehouses.

Don't forget "gigachurches", which is basically a single church split between 10 or more smaller campuses. Frequently, they all share a single senior pastor whose sermons are televised in all of them.

NewSpring (currently the second-fastest-growing church in the USA) is like that, as was Mars Hill before it shut down.

Anathema, anathema, anathema!   Seriously, since these gigaxhurches are invariably iconoclastic; Mars Hill certainly was.  So one could go down the Synodikon with a checklist and probably find it at least half full in the case of these gigachurches.

Mark Driscoll, interestingly enough, was raised Catholic and originally wanted to be a priest but objected to the celibacy requirement, which is why he became Calvinist instead. At one point early on he actually wanted Mars Hill to be an "ancient future" type of church with some Catholic influences, but eventually scrapped that idea.

I seriously wonder why he never considered Orthodoxy along the way.

It has been my experience that the typical excuses for Roman Catholics not seriously considering Orthodoxy will be:
 
1.  They claim the Orthodox Church is "way too ethnic"  (Pot calling Kettle!  Pot calling Kettle!).

2.  They claim there are no real theological disagreements between us.  (It's just those darned "ethnic differences" again!).

3.  They hate the idea of real "Ortho" "doxia": a right and correct way to worship God. They want to reduce everything to "spiritualties" (Benedictine, Franciscan, Ignatian, Tridientine, Vatican II, Byzantine, Melkite, etc.) and unite all that diversity under their Pope:  and that magically solves EVERYTHING!   ::)
 

Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #182 on: May 31, 2015, 01:49:41 PM »
Quote
As Protestants increasingly congregate in megachurches, I see more potential parishes pop up.

Actually, megachurches are in decline. Evangelicals are turning to coffee house-like environments and warehouses.

Don't forget "gigachurches", which is basically a single church split between 10 or more smaller campuses. Frequently, they all share a single senior pastor whose sermons are televised in all of them.

NewSpring (currently the second-fastest-growing church in the USA) is like that, as was Mars Hill before it shut down.

Anathema, anathema, anathema!   Seriously, since these gigaxhurches are invariably iconoclastic; Mars Hill certainly was.  So one could go down the Synodikon with a checklist and probably find it at least half full in the case of these gigachurches.

Mark Driscoll, interestingly enough, was raised Catholic and originally wanted to be a priest but objected to the celibacy requirement, which is why he became Calvinist instead. At one point early on he actually wanted Mars Hill to be an "ancient future" type of church with some Catholic influences, but eventually scrapped that idea.

I seriously wonder why he never considered Orthodoxy along the way.

It has been my experience that the typical excuses for Roman Catholics not seriously considering Orthodoxy will be:
 
1.  They claim the Orthodox Church is "way too ethnic"  (Pot calling Kettle!  Pot calling Kettle!).

2.  They claim there are no real theological disagreements between us.  (It's just those darned "ethnic differences" again!).

3.  They hate the idea of real "Ortho" "doxia": a right and correct way to worship God. They want to reduce everything to "spiritualties" (Benedictine, Franciscan, Ignatian, Tridientine, Vatican II, Byzantine, Melkite, etc.) and unite all that diversity under their Pope:  and that magically solves EVERYTHING!   ::)

None of those excuses really apply to Mark Driscoll, though, since he became Calvinist.
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Offline Tikhon29605

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #183 on: May 31, 2015, 02:25:20 PM »
True.

Perhaps the logic of Calvinism appealed to him?  I think that draws in a lot of Calvinist converts.  There's very little mystery there.  Lots of "if this, then this" type of thinking.  Lots of focusing on rules and "principles" that intellectual-type people enjoy.  I would think Calvinism would appeal more to men than it would to women.  Very little emotion and big on theological jargon and head-knowledge.  I would think women might prefer something softer, with more emphasis on the heart, and less doctrinaire.  Something like Methodism or Wesleyanism, perhaps?


Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #184 on: May 31, 2015, 02:39:08 PM »
True.

Perhaps the logic of Calvinism appealed to him?  I think that draws in a lot of Calvinist converts.  There's very little mystery there.  Lots of "if this, then this" type of thinking.  Lots of focusing on rules and "principles" that intellectual-type people enjoy.  I would think Calvinism would appeal more to men than it would to women.  Very little emotion and big on theological jargon and head-knowledge.  I would think women might prefer something softer, with more emphasis on the heart, and less doctrinaire.  Something like Methodism or Wesleyanism, perhaps?

It definitely does. Mark Driscoll made overt masculinity a huge part of his overall shtick, as does John Piper with his claim that "Christianity should have a masculine feel". There's an almost manospherian ethos around some of these guys. Back in the Victorian era, it was the same way with "Muscular Christianity" going hand in hand with low-church (Calvinistic) Anglicanism and nonconformism.
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #185 on: May 31, 2015, 02:48:37 PM »
Quote
As Protestants increasingly congregate in megachurches, I see more potential parishes pop up.

Actually, megachurches are in decline. Evangelicals are turning to coffee house-like environments and warehouses.

Don't forget "gigachurches", which is basically a single church split between 10 or more smaller campuses. Frequently, they all share a single senior pastor whose sermons are televised in all of them.

NewSpring (currently the second-fastest-growing church in the USA) is like that, as was Mars Hill before it shut down.

Anathema, anathema, anathema!   Seriously, since these gigaxhurches are invariably iconoclastic; Mars Hill certainly was.  So one could go down the Synodikon with a checklist and probably find it at least half full in the case of these gigachurches.

Mark Driscoll, interestingly enough, was raised Catholic and originally wanted to be a priest but objected to the celibacy requirement, which is why he became Calvinist instead. At one point early on he actually wanted Mars Hill to be an "ancient future" type of church with some Catholic influences, but eventually scrapped that idea.

I seriously wonder why he never considered Orthodoxy along the way.
  we're grateful to God that he didn't consider orthodoxy
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #186 on: May 31, 2015, 02:54:11 PM »
True.

Perhaps the logic of Calvinism appealed to him?  I think that draws in a lot of Calvinist converts.  There's very little mystery there.  Lots of "if this, then this" type of thinking.  Lots of focusing on rules and "principles" that intellectual-type people enjoy.

Not very surprising for a theological system thought out by a lawyer.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #187 on: May 31, 2015, 02:54:53 PM »
What do you mean? We couldn't use a priest telling the ladies that they'repenis homes?
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #188 on: May 31, 2015, 03:04:27 PM »
He'll probably put it different though: in synergy with men they freely choose to be penis homes.
"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #189 on: May 31, 2015, 03:04:33 PM »
What do you mean? We couldn't use a priest telling the ladies that they'repenis homes?

From the link:

Quote
The first thing to know about your penis is, that despite the way it may see, it is not your penis. Ultimately, God created you and it is his penis. You are simply borrowing it for a while.

and...

Quote
Therefore, if you are single you must remember that your penis is homeless and needs a home. But, though you may believe your hand is shaped like a home, it is not. And, though women other than your wife may look like a home, to rest there would be breaking into another man’s home.

and...

Quote
the wife should rejoice at seeing his penis rise to greet her (Song of Songs 5:14b).

That man has a lively fantasy.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 03:06:48 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline augustin717

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #190 on: May 31, 2015, 03:08:28 PM »
What do you mean? We couldn't use a priest telling the ladies that they'repenis homes?

From the link:

Quote
The first thing to know about your penis is, that despite the way it may see, it is not your penis. Ultimately, God created you and it is his penis. You are simply borrowing it for a while.

and...

Quote
Therefore, if you are single you must remember that your penis is homeless and needs a home. But, though you may believe your hand is shaped like a home, it is not. And, though women other than your wife may look like a home, to rest there would be breaking into another man’s home.


That man has a lively fantasy.

Romanians  intuited  this as they frequently invoke the divinity to insert its penis in a variety of persons things and situations
« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 03:10:19 PM by augustin717 »
"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

Offline Arachne

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #191 on: May 31, 2015, 03:17:21 PM »
What do you mean? We couldn't use a priest telling the ladies that they'repenis homes?

The comments there gave me a much-needed belly laugh. :D
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #192 on: May 31, 2015, 04:14:15 PM »
I was born into the Episcopal Church because my Catholic dad married an Episcopalian and left the church (he eventually came back). It helped me: its semi-congregationalism kept it liturgically conservative, keeping things it had copied from the Catholics in the late 1800s, so I could learn them. That means parishes could resist modernization and sometimes did. Ironic from a liberal denomination but it happened. In English I still say the creed I first learned, from the old Book of Common Prayer. (Moot most of the time because my usual Mass is in Latin.)

First, one of the best explanations of Anglicanism I've read, from a former Catholic who's now an Episcopal priest, Fr. Jonathan Mitchican: Conciliar Anglican. I think he's been linked to and posted here before.

That said, why it's false: long story short, it's Protestant. Longer version: they think they can make the church anything they want it to be (they think the church is fallible, with doctrine subject to change by vote), part of its Erastian origins (England: the government owns the church so it can change the church), and its Protestant framers, such as Cranmer, were heretics about the Eucharist (no real presence). That break with Catholic teaching is why we don't recognize their claim to apostolic succession (they don't have real bishops because they stopped teaching the truth about the Mass).

I think Orthodoxy's objections are more or less the same as Catholicism's plus the Eastern view that doesn't necessarily recognize sacraments outside the church, so Anglicanism's merely being outside the church closes the case.

I will add that classic Anglicanism's and Orthodoxy's claims are similar, a "pure" Catholicism close to the Bible and the Fathers, pruned of medieval accretions such as the Pope. The Anglicans claimed to be the best because they were both "Catholic" (meaning they kept the creeds, governance by bishops, and the idea of a liturgy) and "reformed" (getting rid of medievalia to return to the Bible and the Fathers). The cultures of course are very different, Orthodoxy at the people's level being like a folk version of Catholicism (Orthodoxy's very medieval; that's a compliment) while Anglicanism before Anglo-Catholicism in the 1800s was obviously not, as has been written here. I've long said that the convert-boomlet ex-Protestant Orthodox would have converted to Anglicanism 150 years ago, given Orthodoxy's inaccessibility in the West at the time.

Somebody posted a good thumbnail of Anglo-Catholicism (which includes classic Anglicans, shallow aesthetes, and would-be Catholics), something that formed me. It was always a minority among Anglicans. It started in the early 1800s, continuing in the Laudian high-church tradition, as an assertion of an exclusive Anglican claim to the truth (divinely instituted), NOT as would-be Catholicism, in fact reacting against an effect of Catholic emancipation in Britain (the government was going to close four Anglican dioceses in Ireland, because of course the Irish are Catholic)... but ended up imitating the Catholic Church.

The misunderstood branch theory of classic Anglicans: Catholicism and Orthodoxy are Christian churches with real bishops and a real Eucharist but Anglicanism's better than both because it's "reformed." The Catholics and the Orthodox are in grave error. Traditionally, objections to "the sacrifices of Masses" (per the Articles), veneration of the saints and of images, and in Catholicism, the Pope.

I'd describe the Episcopalians now as "liberal high church." They seem to market themselves not as Protestants (most lay Episcopalians say they're Protestants but most Episcopal priests don't) but as a "cool" alternative Catholicism. It's a unique mix. Credal orthodoxy and in some places my Catholic traditionalist services (not like Catholic liberals), but a Protestant ecclesiology: fallible church, so women clergy and gay marriage. On paper it looks like it would attract droves of spiritual seekers, lots of ex-Catholics and ex-evangelicals, but it doesn't. It's obviously man-made. Bluntly: a made-up church.

Third World (black) Anglicans are conservative Protestants.

The English don't go to church anymore but of the practicing Anglicans there, you have liberal high church like the Episcopalians and big-E Evangelicals (an Anglican term), conservative Protestants. You used to have would-be Catholics (Anglo-Papalists) but since the Church of England started having women priests and now women bishops, they're Catholic now.

The Anglicans started by objecting to the Pope's power as unscriptural but now claim a power to change holy orders and matrimony that the Pope never dared.
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #193 on: May 31, 2015, 04:29:40 PM »
I've long said that the convert-boomlet ex-Protestant Orthodox would have converted to Anglicanism 150 years ago, given Orthodoxy's inaccessibility in the West at the time.

I don't think so. The question most ex-Protestant converts faced is "Where is the Church?", not "Where can I be 'catholic' without being Roman Catholic". You're a bit too cynical about this. Some might have ended up in the Anglican Church, more would have ended up in the RCC. In the 19th century, and especially at the fin de siècle, the RCC had a convert boomlet from former protestants.

Even in 1850, though, there were westerners (few though they were) who became Orthodox or tried to do so: the Anglican Palmer comes to mind.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 04:36:48 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline pasadi97

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #194 on: May 31, 2015, 04:53:11 PM »
Do me a favor.

Take Holy water from an Orthodox Church and Holy Water from a Roman Catholic Church and put them side by side seeing which one resists more.

That will show you what can do a modification of the procedure of obtaining Holy Water. Now Anglican  in my understanding did more modifications that Roman Catholics not only regarding Holy Water. You go with modifications, you get a risk.

Protestants modified even more renouncing at Holy Water all together, at prayers for departed and others. You go with modifications you get risk.
Ok, I've done what you told me to. As I peer intently at both of them, I see a vague reflection of myself and my cat who seems to be interested in this experiment. They don't look any different to me. What is the next step?
Do yourself a favor and ignore pasadi. Empirical testing of Holy Water just gets one wet.

PP
no. If pasadi has told me to do this, I must follow his instruction. He has never guided me wrong before.

Keep them three weeks and see which one becomes bad eventually green before. IN my experience, orthodox holy water can be drinked after years.
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #195 on: May 31, 2015, 05:02:54 PM »
Do me a favor.

Take Holy water from an Orthodox Church and Holy Water from a Roman Catholic Church and put them side by side seeing which one resists more.

That will show you what can do a modification of the procedure of obtaining Holy Water. Now Anglican  in my understanding did more modifications that Roman Catholics not only regarding Holy Water. You go with modifications, you get a risk.

Protestants modified even more renouncing at Holy Water all together, at prayers for departed and others. You go with modifications you get risk.
Ok, I've done what you told me to. As I peer intently at both of them, I see a vague reflection of myself and my cat who seems to be interested in this experiment. They don't look any different to me. What is the next step?
Do yourself a favor and ignore pasadi. Empirical testing of Holy Water just gets one wet.

PP
no. If pasadi has told me to do this, I must follow his instruction. He has never guided me wrong before.

Keep them three weeks and see which one becomes bad eventually green before. IN my experience, orthodox holy water can be drinked after years.

Let the heavens rejoice, let the earth be glad: pasadi has returned.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 05:03:02 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline Czar Lazar

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #196 on: May 31, 2015, 05:16:08 PM »
Do me a favor.

Take Holy water from an Orthodox Church and Holy Water from a Roman Catholic Church and put them side by side seeing which one resists more.

That will show you what can do a modification of the procedure of obtaining Holy Water. Now Anglican  in my understanding did more modifications that Roman Catholics not only regarding Holy Water. You go with modifications, you get a risk.

Protestants modified even more renouncing at Holy Water all together, at prayers for departed and others. You go with modifications you get risk.
Ok, I've done what you told me to. As I peer intently at both of them, I see a vague reflection of myself and my cat who seems to be interested in this experiment. They don't look any different to me. What is the next step?
Do yourself a favor and ignore pasadi. Empirical testing of Holy Water just gets one wet.

PP
no. If pasadi has told me to do this, I must follow his instruction. He has never guided me wrong before.

Keep them three weeks and see which one becomes bad eventually green before. IN my experience, orthodox holy water can be drinked after years.

I can say this as well.
Have had Orthodox holy water for over 5 years, pure and clear and tastes great, also has a smell of basil.
Have had Catholic holy water for two weeks, accidentally took a drink of it and got violently ill for two weeks --- needed antibiotics;smelled like something died in it....nasty!

Offline pasadi97

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #197 on: May 31, 2015, 07:38:36 PM »
In history of Romania, one ruler Mihai Viteazul conquered a region and decided to build a church. THe people of the city wanted Roman Catholic Church , Mihai Viteazul wanted orthodox Church. They agreed to do a test. They decided to put Holy Water from Orthodox Church and Holy Water from Roman Catholic Church and which denomination Holy Water resists more, they decided to build the church with that denomination. So they put Holy Water from both denominations and prayed to God and after some time, they went inside and orthod ox Holy Water was crisp and clear and Roman Catholic Holy Water was smelly. So the Church existing even today was orthodox.

So, as in Apostles time,as in early roman catholic church before the change, in the orthodoxy, when Holy Water is made , Holy Spirit is called to come and to make from water Holy Water. So in my understanding Holy Water is made by God at the request of the priest. So Holy Water is made by God, is Holy so it has to be drinked on an empty stomach or dispersed with care. Ask Eastern Orthodox priest for proper way of handling and dispersing Holy Water made by God. In my understanding sprinkling on walls if great or throwing in a clean space with grass is Ok.

In my understanding, in Roman Catholic a change was made. A small change that in the prayers said is hard to spot. The results tell the story.

So Anglican is further away. Protestants renounced Holy Water all together are much much further away.

And if you don't hate yourself or your neighbor and if you believe that you and your neighbor deserve the best of what religion can offer in the entire world, orthodoxy may be the way.

Not saying Roman Catholicism, Anglicanism, Protestantism are bad. I am saying orthodoxy is better and you deserve the best.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 08:01:30 PM by pasadi97 »
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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #198 on: May 31, 2015, 07:44:34 PM »
I don't know about other denominations and their holy water, so I won't comment.

But I know that I have had our holy water that is over a year old and it was fine.

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #199 on: May 31, 2015, 07:58:59 PM »
I will add that classic Anglicanism's and Orthodoxy's claims are similar, a "pure" Catholicism close to the Bible and the Fathers, pruned of medieval accretions such as the Pope.

I think that we Orthodox would disagree with the notion that we ever "pruned" any such accretions.  From our perspective, they were never there to begin with.

It may be fair to say, from our perspective, that the Protestants (especially the Anglicans) tried to travel back to where we were, but somewhere between Canterbury and Constantinople they lost the road map.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 08:00:02 PM by Yurysprudentsiya »

Offline pasadi97

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #200 on: May 31, 2015, 07:59:37 PM »
I just want to emphasize that Holy Water has to be handled with care. Throwing it in a sink I don't think is a proper way of handling Holy Water.

So in my understanding Holy Water is made by God at the request of the priest. So Holy Water is made by God, is Holy so it has to be drinked on an empty stomach or dispersed with care. Ask Eastern Orthodox priest for proper way of handling and dispersing Holy Water made by God. In my understanding sprinkling on walls if great or throwing in a clean space with grass is Ok.
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #201 on: May 31, 2015, 08:16:12 PM »
My guess is if holy water goes bad, you handle it like like the water used to clean sacred vessels in a Catholic sacristy. The sacristy has a special sink called a piscina whose drain, called the sacrarium, goes directly into the ground so the water never mixes with sewage. If you can't use the holy water anymore, pour it on the ground.

In the Roman Rite, holy water isn't drunk so its going bad isn't an issue.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 08:24:07 PM by The young fogey »
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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #202 on: May 31, 2015, 08:19:08 PM »
I will add that classic Anglicanism's and Orthodoxy's claims are similar, a "pure" Catholicism close to the Bible and the Fathers, pruned of medieval accretions such as the Pope.

I think that we Orthodox would disagree with the notion that we ever "pruned" any such accretions.  From our perspective, they were never there to begin with.

It may be fair to say, from our perspective, that the Protestants (especially the Anglicans) tried to travel back to where we were, but somewhere between Canterbury and Constantinople they lost the road map.

Like I said, a very similar claim, but not identical.

Principled classic Anglicans weren't "trying to be Catholic without the Pope"; they thought they were the church. Just like the Orthodox.
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Offline Echa

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #203 on: May 31, 2015, 08:20:51 PM »
In history of Romania, one ruler Mihai Viteazul conquered a region and decided to build a church. THe people of the city wanted Roman Catholic Church , Mihai Viteazul wanted orthodox Church. They agreed to do a test. They decided to put Holy Water from Orthodox Church and Holy Water from Roman Catholic Church and which denomination Holy Water resists more, they decided to build the church with that denomination. So they put Holy Water from both denominations and prayed to God and after some time, they went inside and orthod ox Holy Water was crisp and clear and Roman Catholic Holy Water was smelly. So the Church existing even today was orthodox.

So, as in Apostles time,as in early roman catholic church before the change, in the orthodoxy, when Holy Water is made , Holy Spirit is called to come and to make from water Holy Water. So in my understanding Holy Water is made by God at the request of the priest. So Holy Water is made by God, is Holy so it has to be drinked on an empty stomach or dispersed with care. Ask Eastern Orthodox priest for proper way of handling and dispersing Holy Water made by God. In my understanding sprinkling on walls if great or throwing in a clean space with grass is Ok.

In my understanding, in Roman Catholic a change was made. A small change that in the prayers said is hard to spot. The results tell the story.

So Anglican is further away. Protestants renounced Holy Water all together are much much further away.

And if you don't hate yourself or your neighbor and if you believe that you and your neighbor deserve the best of what religion can offer in the entire world, orthodoxy may be the way.

Not saying Roman Catholicism, Anglicanism, Protestantism are bad. I am saying orthodoxy is better and you deserve the best.

This story somehow brightens my day. Thanks for sharing!
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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #204 on: May 31, 2015, 08:24:59 PM »
My guess is if holy water goes bad, you handle it like like the water used to clean sacred vessels in a Catholic sacristy. The sacristy has a special sink called a piscina whose drain, called the sacrarium, goes directly into the ground so the water never mixes with sewage. If you can't use the holy water anymore, pour it on the ground.

In the Roman Rite, holy water isn't drunk so its going bad isn't an issue.

 the instruction of Our Lady of Lourdes to "drink at the spring and bathe in it"

Offline The young fogey

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #205 on: May 31, 2015, 08:53:18 PM »
My guess is if holy water goes bad, you handle it like like the water used to clean sacred vessels in a Catholic sacristy. The sacristy has a special sink called a piscina whose drain, called the sacrarium, goes directly into the ground so the water never mixes with sewage. If you can't use the holy water anymore, pour it on the ground.

In the Roman Rite, holy water isn't drunk so its going bad isn't an issue.

 the instruction of Our Lady of Lourdes to "drink at the spring and bathe in it"

That spring is different from the water that's blessed in the Roman Rite to use in church for liturgical sprinkling/blessing (just like the Byzantine Rite) and to dip your fingers in to cross yourself at the church door entering and leaving.
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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #206 on: May 31, 2015, 08:55:31 PM »
My guess is if holy water goes bad, you handle it like like the water used to clean sacred vessels in a Catholic sacristy. The sacristy has a special sink called a piscina whose drain, called the sacrarium, goes directly into the ground so the water never mixes with sewage. If you can't use the holy water anymore, pour it on the ground.

In the Roman Rite, holy water isn't drunk so its going bad isn't an issue.

 the instruction of Our Lady of Lourdes to "drink at the spring and bathe in it"

That spring is different from the water that's blessed in the Roman Rite to use in church for liturgical sprinkling/blessing (just like the Byzantine Rite) and to dip your fingers in to cross yourself at the church door entering and leaving.

So, its not Holy Water then?

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #207 on: May 31, 2015, 08:57:03 PM »
True.

Perhaps the logic of Calvinism appealed to him?  I think that draws in a lot of Calvinist converts.  There's very little mystery there.  Lots of "if this, then this" type of thinking.  Lots of focusing on rules and "principles" that intellectual-type people enjoy.  I would think Calvinism would appeal more to men than it would to women.  Very little emotion and big on theological jargon and head-knowledge.  I would think women might prefer something softer, with more emphasis on the heart, and less doctrinaire.  Something like Methodism or Wesleyanism, perhaps?

It definitely does. Mark Driscoll made overt masculinity a huge part of his overall shtick, as does John Piper with his claim that "Christianity should have a masculine feel". There's an almost manospherian ethos around some of these guys. Back in the Victorian era, it was the same way with "Muscular Christianity" going hand in hand with low-church (Calvinistic) Anglicanism and nonconformism.

An acquaintance of mine once called Orthodoxy "limp wristed."
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #208 on: May 31, 2015, 09:04:55 PM »
My guess is if holy water goes bad, you handle it like like the water used to clean sacred vessels in a Catholic sacristy. The sacristy has a special sink called a piscina whose drain, called the sacrarium, goes directly into the ground so the water never mixes with sewage. If you can't use the holy water anymore, pour it on the ground.

In the Roman Rite, holy water isn't drunk so its going bad isn't an issue.

 the instruction of Our Lady of Lourdes to "drink at the spring and bathe in it"

That spring is different from the water that's blessed in the Roman Rite to use in church for liturgical sprinkling/blessing (just like the Byzantine Rite) and to dip your fingers in to cross yourself at the church door entering and leaving.

So, its not Holy Water then?

Right.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #209 on: May 31, 2015, 09:07:10 PM »
True.

Perhaps the logic of Calvinism appealed to him?  I think that draws in a lot of Calvinist converts.  There's very little mystery there.  Lots of "if this, then this" type of thinking.  Lots of focusing on rules and "principles" that intellectual-type people enjoy.  I would think Calvinism would appeal more to men than it would to women.  Very little emotion and big on theological jargon and head-knowledge.  I would think women might prefer something softer, with more emphasis on the heart, and less doctrinaire.  Something like Methodism or Wesleyanism, perhaps?

It definitely does. Mark Driscoll made overt masculinity a huge part of his overall shtick, as does John Piper with his claim that "Christianity should have a masculine feel". There's an almost manospherian ethos around some of these guys. Back in the Victorian era, it was the same way with "Muscular Christianity" going hand in hand with low-church (Calvinistic) Anglicanism and nonconformism.

An acquaintance of mine once called Orthodoxy "limp wristed."
And how many martyrs have their been in his denomination?
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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #210 on: May 31, 2015, 09:07:56 PM »
My guess is if holy water goes bad, you handle it like like the water used to clean sacred vessels in a Catholic sacristy. The sacristy has a special sink called a piscina whose drain, called the sacrarium, goes directly into the ground so the water never mixes with sewage. If you can't use the holy water anymore, pour it on the ground.

In the Roman Rite, holy water isn't drunk so its going bad isn't an issue.

 the instruction of Our Lady of Lourdes to "drink at the spring and bathe in it"

That spring is different from the water that's blessed in the Roman Rite to use in church for liturgical sprinkling/blessing (just like the Byzantine Rite) and to dip your fingers in to cross yourself at the church door entering and leaving.

So, its not Holy Water then?

Right.

Interesting.
Does this apply to all Roman outdoor water font "things"?

Offline The young fogey

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #211 on: May 31, 2015, 09:33:23 PM »
My guess is if holy water goes bad, you handle it like like the water used to clean sacred vessels in a Catholic sacristy. The sacristy has a special sink called a piscina whose drain, called the sacrarium, goes directly into the ground so the water never mixes with sewage. If you can't use the holy water anymore, pour it on the ground.

In the Roman Rite, holy water isn't drunk so its going bad isn't an issue.

 the instruction of Our Lady of Lourdes to "drink at the spring and bathe in it"

That spring is different from the water that's blessed in the Roman Rite to use in church for liturgical sprinkling/blessing (just like the Byzantine Rite) and to dip your fingers in to cross yourself at the church door entering and leaving.

So, its not Holy Water then?

Right.

Interesting.
Does this apply to all Roman outdoor water font "things"?

Not sure I understand. Do you mean miraculous wells and springs or the holy-water fonts at church doors (not outdoors)? Like I said, miraculous well and spring water isn't liturgical holy water so I guess the answer's yes.
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Offline Tikhon29605

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #212 on: May 31, 2015, 09:49:05 PM »
True.

Perhaps the logic of Calvinism appealed to him?  I think that draws in a lot of Calvinist converts.  There's very little mystery there.  Lots of "if this, then this" type of thinking.  Lots of focusing on rules and "principles" that intellectual-type people enjoy.  I would think Calvinism would appeal more to men than it would to women.  Very little emotion and big on theological jargon and head-knowledge.  I would think women might prefer something softer, with more emphasis on the heart, and less doctrinaire.  Something like Methodism or Wesleyanism, perhaps?

It definitely does. Mark Driscoll made overt masculinity a huge part of his overall shtick, as does John Piper with his claim that "Christianity should have a masculine feel". There's an almost manospherian ethos around some of these guys. Back in the Victorian era, it was the same way with "Muscular Christianity" going hand in hand with low-church (Calvinistic) Anglicanism and nonconformism.

An acquaintance of mine once called Orthodoxy "limp wristed."


Goodness, if there is any religion that is "limp wristed" it is modern, apostate Anglicanism of the Church of England and ECUSA variety.

Orthodoxy practically drips testosterone.

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #213 on: May 31, 2015, 09:52:52 PM »
True.

Perhaps the logic of Calvinism appealed to him?  I think that draws in a lot of Calvinist converts.  There's very little mystery there.  Lots of "if this, then this" type of thinking.  Lots of focusing on rules and "principles" that intellectual-type people enjoy.  I would think Calvinism would appeal more to men than it would to women.  Very little emotion and big on theological jargon and head-knowledge.  I would think women might prefer something softer, with more emphasis on the heart, and less doctrinaire.  Something like Methodism or Wesleyanism, perhaps?

It definitely does. Mark Driscoll made overt masculinity a huge part of his overall shtick, as does John Piper with his claim that "Christianity should have a masculine feel". There's an almost manospherian ethos around some of these guys. Back in the Victorian era, it was the same way with "Muscular Christianity" going hand in hand with low-church (Calvinistic) Anglicanism and nonconformism.

An acquaintance of mine once called Orthodoxy "limp wristed."


Goodness, if there is any religion that is "limp wristed" it is modern, apostate Anglicanism of the Church of England and ECUSA variety.

Orthodoxy practically drips testosterone.

I criticize Orthodoxy but I'd NEVER call it "limp-wristed."
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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #214 on: May 31, 2015, 09:55:15 PM »
True.

Perhaps the logic of Calvinism appealed to him?  I think that draws in a lot of Calvinist converts.  There's very little mystery there.  Lots of "if this, then this" type of thinking.  Lots of focusing on rules and "principles" that intellectual-type people enjoy.  I would think Calvinism would appeal more to men than it would to women.  Very little emotion and big on theological jargon and head-knowledge.  I would think women might prefer something softer, with more emphasis on the heart, and less doctrinaire.  Something like Methodism or Wesleyanism, perhaps?

It definitely does. Mark Driscoll made overt masculinity a huge part of his overall shtick, as does John Piper with his claim that "Christianity should have a masculine feel". There's an almost manospherian ethos around some of these guys. Back in the Victorian era, it was the same way with "Muscular Christianity" going hand in hand with low-church (Calvinistic) Anglicanism and nonconformism.

An acquaintance of mine once called Orthodoxy "limp wristed."


Goodness, if there is any religion that is "limp wristed" it is modern, apostate Anglicanism of the Church of England and ECUSA variety.

Orthodoxy practically drips testosterone.

Well, he's an quasi-Anabaptist who proudly describes himself as an "ecclesiastical anarchist." I think for him anything that isn't "four bare walls and a sermon" is queer as the day is long.

Which made if funny watching him butt heads with a macho Calvinist who called his beloved Arminius a metrosexual.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 09:55:40 PM by Volnutt »
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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #215 on: May 31, 2015, 10:01:47 PM »
True.

Perhaps the logic of Calvinism appealed to him?  I think that draws in a lot of Calvinist converts.  There's very little mystery there.  Lots of "if this, then this" type of thinking.  Lots of focusing on rules and "principles" that intellectual-type people enjoy.  I would think Calvinism would appeal more to men than it would to women.  Very little emotion and big on theological jargon and head-knowledge.  I would think women might prefer something softer, with more emphasis on the heart, and less doctrinaire.  Something like Methodism or Wesleyanism, perhaps?

It definitely does. Mark Driscoll made overt masculinity a huge part of his overall shtick, as does John Piper with his claim that "Christianity should have a masculine feel". There's an almost manospherian ethos around some of these guys. Back in the Victorian era, it was the same way with "Muscular Christianity" going hand in hand with low-church (Calvinistic) Anglicanism and nonconformism.

An acquaintance of mine once called Orthodoxy "limp wristed."


Goodness, if there is any religion that is "limp wristed" it is modern, apostate Anglicanism of the Church of England and ECUSA variety.

Orthodoxy practically drips testosterone.
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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #216 on: May 31, 2015, 11:40:12 PM »
In history of Romania, one ruler Mihai Viteazul conquered a region and decided to build a church. THe people of the city wanted Roman Catholic Church , Mihai Viteazul wanted orthodox Church. They agreed to do a test. They decided to put Holy Water from Orthodox Church and Holy Water from Roman Catholic Church and which denomination Holy Water resists more, they decided to build the church with that denomination. So they put Holy Water from both denominations and prayed to God and after some time, they went inside and orthod ox Holy Water was crisp and clear and Roman Catholic Holy Water was smelly. So the Church existing even today was orthodox.

So, as in Apostles time,as in early roman catholic church before the change, in the orthodoxy, when Holy Water is made , Holy Spirit is called to come and to make from water Holy Water. So in my understanding Holy Water is made by God at the request of the priest. So Holy Water is made by God, is Holy so it has to be drinked on an empty stomach or dispersed with care. Ask Eastern Orthodox priest for proper way of handling and dispersing Holy Water made by God. In my understanding sprinkling on walls if great or throwing in a clean space with grass is Ok.

In my understanding, in Roman Catholic a change was made. A small change that in the prayers said is hard to spot. The results tell the story.

So Anglican is further away. Protestants renounced Holy Water all together are much much further away.

And if you don't hate yourself or your neighbor and if you believe that you and your neighbor deserve the best of what religion can offer in the entire world, orthodoxy may be the way.

Not saying Roman Catholicism, Anglicanism, Protestantism are bad. I am saying orthodoxy is better and you deserve the best.
So we should choose Orthodoxy because it's the home of the best Holy Water... ::)
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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #217 on: May 31, 2015, 11:58:54 PM »
No offense, but pasadi can prove the Anglican Church is false because of an incident in Romania?  :o Didn't know the Church of England sent a lot of people over there.
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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #218 on: June 01, 2015, 12:24:33 AM »
pasadi, have you done any research into determining which jurisdiction has the best Holy Water? Do you think perhaps the Russians have better quality than the Antiochians? I ask because I want to make sure I'm in the absolute best place, so if Antioch only puts out second place water, I'm gonna need to switch it up.
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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #219 on: June 01, 2015, 05:57:37 AM »
Getting back on topic, I think it was high-church Anglican apologist Vernon Staley himself who noted the irony of the Anglicans dropping anointing of the sick, during their "Reformation" founding (they'd call it a renewal, not a founding), even though it's scriptural. Their Articles list it as a minor sacrament, holding with other Protestants that Christ instituted only two main sacraments, baptism and Communion. Like how they listed confession but no longer had a form for it, dropping the practice until, controversially, Anglo-Catholics started doing it again. Now the Episcopalians have an official form for it, based on the traditional Roman Rite form that Anglo-Catholics copied, but I think few Episcopalians do it, because unlike Catholicism and Orthodoxy, you don't have to do it for serious sins in order to go to Communion (they believe the service's general confession prayer and blessing are the same as private confession).
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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #220 on: June 01, 2015, 06:41:23 AM »
In history of Romania, one ruler Mihai Viteazul conquered a region and decided to build a church. THe people of the city wanted Roman Catholic Church , Mihai Viteazul wanted orthodox Church. They agreed to do a test. They decided to put Holy Water from Orthodox Church and Holy Water from Roman Catholic Church and which denomination Holy Water resists more, they decided to build the church with that denomination. So they put Holy Water from both denominations and prayed to God and after some time, they went inside and orthod ox Holy Water was crisp and clear and Roman Catholic Holy Water was smelly. So the Church existing even today was orthodox.

So, as in Apostles time,as in early roman catholic church before the change, in the orthodoxy, when Holy Water is made , Holy Spirit is called to come and to make from water Holy Water. So in my understanding Holy Water is made by God at the request of the priest. So Holy Water is made by God, is Holy so it has to be drinked on an empty stomach or dispersed with care. Ask Eastern Orthodox priest for proper way of handling and dispersing Holy Water made by God. In my understanding sprinkling on walls if great or throwing in a clean space with grass is Ok.

In my understanding, in Roman Catholic a change was made. A small change that in the prayers said is hard to spot. The results tell the story.

So Anglican is further away. Protestants renounced Holy Water all together are much much further away.

And if you don't hate yourself or your neighbor and if you believe that you and your neighbor deserve the best of what religion can offer in the entire world, orthodoxy may be the way.

Not saying Roman Catholicism, Anglicanism, Protestantism are bad. I am saying orthodoxy is better and you deserve the best.

Orthodoxy holy water is blessed and exorcised like RC (and Anglo Catholic) holy water but I've never read anything along the lines of the quasi-eucharistic doctrine you espouse for its creation.  After all we have the Great and Lesser Blessing of Water, not the Great Transmutation of Water Into Supernatural Holy Water.

Also I have to confess I'm exceedingly tired of miracle stories of a polemical nature the purpose of which is to "prove" one denomination over another.  Two glasses of holy water side by side sounds like the basis for an ecclesiastical version of Three Card Monte.

However, it may well have happened, for a different reason: if the Romans grabbed a glassful of holy water from a font, and the Orthodox used fresh holy water, the bacteria scientists have found in Roman fonts and other microorganisms from people dipping their fingers in it, which would probably have been much worse in medieval Romania, the RC holy water would naturally turn foul.

This is why I'm a fan of not having fonts but using other means of conveying the holy water that are coincidentally more sanitary.  But Holy Water is not the Eucharist nor anything close to it amd I would urge you pasadi to not regard it or its blessing in the way you look on the Eucharist; we don't even count the Great Blessing of Water as a sacrament (I've seen a few arguments along the lines that the idea of seven sacraments is a Roman invention, and we should also count Pannikhidas, the Great Blessing of Water, et cetera, but I'm just going by Orthodox a Dogmatic Theology) on this point.  That said I do think that as blessed water our customs regarding the acquisition of it on Theophany and drinking the fresh bottled holy water when ill can be of benefit.  But the Eucharost and unction are more definitive medicine, the difference between Holy Water and the sacraments being like aspirin vs. prescription agents, if I might use a crude analogy.
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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #221 on: June 01, 2015, 06:52:32 AM »
Getting back on topic, I think it was high-church Anglican apologist Vernon Staley himself who noted the irony of the Anglicans dropping anointing of the sick, during their "Reformation" founding (they'd call it a renewal, not a founding), even though it's scriptural. Their Articles list it as a minor sacrament, holding with other Protestants that Christ instituted only two main sacraments, baptism and Communion. Like how they listed confession but no longer had a form for it, dropping the practice until, controversially, Anglo-Catholics started doing it again. Now the Episcopalians have an official form for it, based on the traditional Roman Rite form that Anglo-Catholics copied, but I think few Episcopalians do it, because unlike Catholicism and Orthodoxy, you don't have to do it for serious sins in order to go to Communion (they believe the service's general confession prayer and blessing are the same as private confession).

In the early 20th century some Anglo Catholics tried to enforce oracular confession using the Anglican priests power to repel from the Sacrament "a notorious evil liver" with mixed success.  There were also Anglo Catholic parishes in London where only the Priest would communicate in Solemn High Mass, which was a flagrant violation of the rules, and also rather an inversion of what I understand to be normative Catholic practice.  The people would communicate at a said service modified to look more like Low Mass early in the morning.  One will find also a host of hybrid BCP-Tridentine liturgies from this era.  A sort of division emerged between Missal Catholics using the 1915 English Missal or in some places (St. Magnus the Martyr) even the Roman missal, and Prayer Book Catholics sticking to the BCP, who had huge influence on the 1928 Deposited Book, which was rejected by a majority culled from non Anglican dissenting Protestants in the House of Commons.
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #222 on: June 01, 2015, 09:21:38 AM »
In history of Romania, one ruler Mihai Viteazul conquered a region and decided to build a church. THe people of the city wanted Roman Catholic Church , Mihai Viteazul wanted orthodox Church. They agreed to do a test. They decided to put Holy Water from Orthodox Church and Holy Water from Roman Catholic Church and which denomination Holy Water resists more, they decided to build the church with that denomination. So they put Holy Water from both denominations and prayed to God and after some time, they went inside and orthod ox Holy Water was crisp and clear and Roman Catholic Holy Water was smelly. So the Church existing even today was orthodox.

So, as in Apostles time,as in early roman catholic church before the change, in the orthodoxy, when Holy Water is made , Holy Spirit is called to come and to make from water Holy Water. So in my understanding Holy Water is made by God at the request of the priest. So Holy Water is made by God, is Holy so it has to be drinked on an empty stomach or dispersed with care. Ask Eastern Orthodox priest for proper way of handling and dispersing Holy Water made by God. In my understanding sprinkling on walls if great or throwing in a clean space with grass is Ok.

In my understanding, in Roman Catholic a change was made. A small change that in the prayers said is hard to spot. The results tell the story.

So Anglican is further away. Protestants renounced Holy Water all together are much much further away.

And if you don't hate yourself or your neighbor and if you believe that you and your neighbor deserve the best of what religion can offer in the entire world, orthodoxy may be the way.

Not saying Roman Catholicism, Anglicanism, Protestantism are bad. I am saying orthodoxy is better and you deserve the best.

Orthodoxy holy water is blessed and exorcised like RC (and Anglo Catholic) holy water but I've never read anything along the lines of the quasi-eucharistic doctrine you espouse for its creation.  After all we have the Great and Lesser Blessing of Water, not the Great Transmutation of Water Into Supernatural Holy Water.

This whole thing reminds me of the Penta Water controversy, involving a guy who claims to have transmuted water into having 5 molecules per cluster instead of the normal 11 or so, and that the "restructured" water is better for you.
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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #223 on: June 01, 2015, 09:54:12 AM »
Quote
Let God be a 'she', says Church of England women's group

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/01/church-of-england-womens-group-bishops
Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #224 on: June 01, 2015, 11:29:11 AM »
Quote
Let God be a 'she', says Church of England women's group

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/01/church-of-england-womens-group-bishops
We're already discussing this movement here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,64995.0.html

So how does this desire to use feminine titles for God prove Anglicanism false?
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