Author Topic: Is this the outcome or result of someone who committed suicide?  (Read 2137 times)

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Offline WPM

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I'm just wondering if this kind of outcome is the result of someone who committed suicide. Thanks
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Offline Arachne

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Re: Is this the outcome or result of someone who committed suicide?
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2015, 12:00:40 PM »
What kind of outcome?
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Is this the outcome or result of someone who committed suicide?
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2015, 12:19:27 PM »
The outcome was not mentioned--therefore it is a non-existent part of this thread. Thus WPM is asking in an interesting way if the person who committed suicide is also non-existent. There being no period at the end of his post indicates what an open ended and difficult question it truly is to answer.

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Offline WPM

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Re: Is this the outcome or result of someone who committed suicide?
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2015, 12:29:39 PM »
I assume its the outcome of someone who committed suicide.
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Offline WPM

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Re: Is this the outcome or result of someone who committed suicide?
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2015, 12:30:33 PM »
What kind of outcome?

Very alone .. Way isolated, and no people.
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Offline Arachne

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Re: Is this the outcome or result of someone who committed suicide?
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2015, 12:33:25 PM »
What kind of outcome?

Very alone .. Way isolated, and no people.

I don't think 'outcome' means what you think it means.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline WPM

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Re: Is this the outcome or result of someone who committed suicide?
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2015, 12:39:20 PM »
Reclusive priest? ...
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Is this the outcome or result of someone who committed suicide?
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2015, 02:01:16 PM »
Suicide seems to me to be an unfortunate choice to make. Isolation, loneliness, etc. are forms of pain, but even if they cannot be properly dealt with at present, it seems like it'd be better to cover them over as best you can--with religion, drugs, work, sex, whatever works for you--in the hopes that a 'healthy,' long-term solution will come along eventually.

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Re: Is this the outcome or result of someone who committed suicide?
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2015, 02:16:11 PM »
Is this the real life?
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline vamrat

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Re: Is this the outcome or result of someone who committed suicide?
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2015, 02:20:19 PM »
Is this the real life?

I think its just fantasy.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline Hopeful Faithful

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Re: Is this the outcome or result of someone who committed suicide?
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2015, 02:38:33 PM »
I'm just wondering if this kind of outcome is the result of someone who committed suicide. Thanks

Greetings,

Sadly I have seen suicide rather up close, more than once.

Here are some of my reflections on the topic, for whatever they are worth.

It is my understanding that the Orthodox Church considers Samson as part of the Church even though it could be construed that he did so.

There are many things to think about regarding this topic.

Many of the Old Ritualists are said to have done so, but that conclusion might be more questionable than some think.

My position is that we should not play God either way, prematurely taking our life or by modern scientific means prolonging it.

Some of the other ways I look at this topic follow.

Modern society as a whole appears to have nothing less than a mass-murderous, suicidal-maniac mentality.

There are reports about how the local police and what would be called my nations military that have a suicide rate three times what the general public has, with military suicides now skyrocketing.

I recollect the TV show MASH theme song.

I am reminded of what would be called one of my young countryman, and perhaps also called an atheistic Jew, Aaron Swartz, who was found hanged in his apartment. Though that was called a suicide I doubt it, even if it was those who drove him to it are most culpable.

It is considered noble for a captain to go down with their ship.

No doubt many surprises will be in store for us all after the final judgment.

The sensible thing would be to not act on suicidal tendencies, forcibly putting them out of our mind.

Things are not always so cut-and-dried.

I would offer this, though I do think their are always other more helpful alternatives and options, it might be that suicide would change things for the better in spite of its needlessness. There is also at least one other way to look at this topic, that there might seem like no other way to protect sanctity or something worthy, as with a built-in self-destruct button.

forgive me


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Offline biro

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Re: Is this the outcome or result of someone who committed suicide?
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2015, 03:19:15 PM »
Is this the real life?

Is it just fantasy?
My only weakness is, well, never mind

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Is this the outcome or result of someone who committed suicide?
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2015, 03:22:51 PM »
Is this the real life?

Is it just fantasy?

Mor Ephrem is all these things.
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Offline biro

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Re: Is this the outcome or result of someone who committed suicide?
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2015, 03:44:44 PM »
I have heard, and please correct me if this is wrong, that a person who died in a suicide can have an Orthodox funeral if it can be proven that the person was not of sound mind at the time.
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Offline vamrat

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Re: Is this the outcome or result of someone who committed suicide?
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2015, 03:48:19 PM »
In response to Hopeful Faithful,

You bring up some good points.  What about the captain who goes down with his ship?  As a matter of honour, I am not sure if that is acceptable.  If he chooses to not get on a lifeboat until everyone else does, that would be proper as it is him laying down his life for another.  But if there is space and it is just a matter of pride?  I can sympathize with him, though not sure if it passes the test.  Regardless, I won't be the one judging him so it is waaay above my pay grade. 

Another case could be made of Field Marshall Rommel.  If he had been executed as a traitor his wife and son would havelikely been punished as well, but by committing suicide, the government was willing to say it was due to stress, and his wife and son would go on living as the family of an untarnished hero.  It was not just a matter of pride because concentration camps had a nasty survival rate. 

I think that we cannot consider killing yourself to save another life to be the same as suicide from depression or dishonour.  Otherwise, Christ's death on the Cross could certainly be considered suicide, as it was preventable (Legions of Angels would have made short work of any resistance...heck, one Angel was able to kill every first born child of an entire nation in one night).  But Christ says, no greater love has one than to lay down his life for his friends.  I could see the case including jumping on handgrenades, serving in forlorn hopes, or being the last one off a ship or out of a burning building.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline hecma925

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Re: Is this the outcome or result of someone who committed suicide?
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2015, 03:28:14 AM »
I have heard, and please correct me if this is wrong, that a person who died in a suicide can have an Orthodox funeral if it can be proven that the person was not of sound mind at the time.

It's a pastoral issue, something that a priest would need to consult with his bishop.  The issue is how does one prove such a thing outside a medical diagnosis?
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Re: Is this the outcome or result of someone who committed suicide?
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2015, 03:35:28 AM »
I have heard, and please correct me if this is wrong, that a person who died in a suicide can have an Orthodox funeral if it can be proven that the person was not of sound mind at the time.

It's a pastoral issue, something that a priest would need to consult with his bishop.  The issue is how does one prove such a thing outside a medical diagnosis?

In the Greek parish (GOARCH) I used to attend, a priest served a funeral for a young suicide victim who had a history of mental illness. As the young teen was quite popular, some friends threatened suicide. When the priest found out, he preached a sermon and said that he would not serve their funerals, and that the reason this victim was given a funeral was because the bishop had intervened.

At the funeral service, the parking lot was full as if it were for a Sunday Divine Liturgy.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2015, 03:37:38 AM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline hecma925

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Re: Is this the outcome or result of someone who committed suicide?
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2015, 05:46:42 AM »
I have heard, and please correct me if this is wrong, that a person who died in a suicide can have an Orthodox funeral if it can be proven that the person was not of sound mind at the time.

It's a pastoral issue, something that a priest would need to consult with his bishop.  The issue is how does one prove such a thing outside a medical diagnosis?

In the Greek parish (GOARCH) I used to attend, a priest served a funeral for a young suicide victim who had a history of mental illness. As the young teen was quite popular, some friends threatened suicide. When the priest found out, he preached a sermon and said that he would not serve their funerals, and that the reason this victim was given a funeral was because the bishop had intervened.

At the funeral service, the parking lot was full as if it were for a Sunday Divine Liturgy.

Good.

In such cases as this, it is very beneficial for the living.  All one can do is ask for God's mercy.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

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Offline Hopeful Faithful

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Re: Is this the outcome or result of someone who committed suicide?
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2015, 11:46:55 AM »
Greetings,

As it is my understanding that the King of Glory, Christ, knew He would be killed, that in some way He too committed suicide, giving His Own life for His friends.

Or, as an Old Testament foreshadowing offers, God will provide Himself as the sacrifice...

Hopefully I am not stretching this?

forgive me


HIS Judgment Cometh, And That Right Soon! Mark 13:35

If any man be ignorant, let him alone be ignorant (at his own peril). 1 Cor. 14:38

Let us all hope to be found a faithful, loving bond-slave of Christ on the soon approaching Last Day.

Offline Theophania

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Re: Is this the outcome or result of someone who committed suicide?
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2015, 12:59:57 PM »
I have heard, and please correct me if this is wrong, that a person who died in a suicide can have an Orthodox funeral if it can be proven that the person was not of sound mind at the time.

It's a pastoral issue, something that a priest would need to consult with his bishop.  The issue is how does one prove such a thing outside a medical diagnosis?

In the Greek parish (GOARCH) I used to attend, a priest served a funeral for a young suicide victim who had a history of mental illness. As the young teen was quite popular, some friends threatened suicide. When the priest found out, he preached a sermon and said that he would not serve their funerals, and that the reason this victim was given a funeral was because the bishop had intervened.

At the funeral service, the parking lot was full as if it were for a Sunday Divine Liturgy.

Hopefully he didn't do this at the actual funeral - if so, that was very disrespectful to the victim's family.
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline Maria

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Re: Is this the outcome or result of someone who committed suicide?
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2015, 04:46:52 PM »
I have heard, and please correct me if this is wrong, that a person who died in a suicide can have an Orthodox funeral if it can be proven that the person was not of sound mind at the time.

It's a pastoral issue, something that a priest would need to consult with his bishop.  The issue is how does one prove such a thing outside a medical diagnosis?

In the Greek parish (GOARCH) I used to attend, a priest served a funeral for a young suicide victim who had a history of mental illness. As the young teen was quite popular, some friends threatened suicide. When the priest found out, he preached a sermon and said that he would not serve their funerals, and that the reason this victim was given a funeral was because the bishop had intervened.

At the funeral service, the parking lot was full as if it were for a Sunday Divine Liturgy.

Hopefully he didn't do this at the actual funeral - if so, that was very disrespectful to the victim's family.

No, give the priest a break! Sheesh!

The priest had given his sermon immediately after the Sunday Divine Liturgy where he mentioned the Church's teaching on suicide. The bishop had asked the priest to speak about this matter to the family, friends, and parish as at least five teens from the parish had expressed a desire to commit suicide and be buried with this teen.

Earlier on Tuesday morning of that week, we had attended the festal Divine Liturgy, which was sparsely attended, but the funeral was scheduled to follow about 45 minutes later, so the funeral attendants were unloading the casket from the hearse immediately following the Divine Liturgy. As we did not know that family, we did not attend.  We left to get some breakfast, drove past the church about an hour later, and the parking lot was completely full.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2015, 04:50:30 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Is this the outcome or result of someone who committed suicide?
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2015, 04:49:16 PM »
Hopefully he didn't do this at the actual funeral - if so, that was very disrespectful to the victim's family.

No, give the priest a break! Sheesh!

I didn't realise that "hopefully" and "if so" meant that Kelly was jumping to conclusions and rashly judging the priest.  Usually, I get that vibe from "No, give the priest a break!" and "Sheesh!". 
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Offline Maria

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Re: Is this the outcome or result of someone who committed suicide?
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2015, 04:53:57 PM »
Hopefully he didn't do this at the actual funeral - if so, that was very disrespectful to the victim's family.

No, give the priest a break! Sheesh!

I didn't realise that "hopefully" and "if so" meant that Kelly was jumping to conclusions and rashly judging the priest.  Usually, I get that vibe from "No, give the priest a break!" and "Sheesh!".

If Kelly had mentioned this at the parish, she would have been accused of rashly judging that priest.
Oh, and people were upset that this priest gave the Sunday sermon on that topic.
It was a very sensitive topic. No matter what position a person took, tempers flared.

A young teen had killed himself because his girl friend broke up with him.
Families were fighting, and at least ten teens had expressed suicidal thoughts (five from the parish).
« Last Edit: April 17, 2015, 04:56:58 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Is this the outcome or result of someone who committed suicide?
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2015, 04:57:42 PM »
Hopefully he didn't do this at the actual funeral - if so, that was very disrespectful to the victim's family.

No, give the priest a break! Sheesh!

I didn't realise that "hopefully" and "if so" meant that Kelly was jumping to conclusions and rashly judging the priest.  Usually, I get that vibe from "No, give the priest a break!" and "Sheesh!".

If Kelly had mentioned this at the parish, she would have been accused of rashly judging that priest.
Oh, and people were upset that this priest gave the Sunday sermon on that topic.
It was a very sensitive topic. No matter what position a person took, tempers flared.

This is not the first time you have mentioned this story, and consequently it's not the first time I have doubts about it.  But that is as irrelevant as your anecdote to the OP.
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

Offline Maria

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Re: Is this the outcome or result of someone who committed suicide?
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2015, 05:04:14 PM »
Hopefully he didn't do this at the actual funeral - if so, that was very disrespectful to the victim's family.

No, give the priest a break! Sheesh!

I didn't realise that "hopefully" and "if so" meant that Kelly was jumping to conclusions and rashly judging the priest.  Usually, I get that vibe from "No, give the priest a break!" and "Sheesh!".

If Kelly had mentioned this at the parish, she would have been accused of rashly judging that priest.
Oh, and people were upset that this priest gave the Sunday sermon on that topic.
It was a very sensitive topic. No matter what position a person took, tempers flared.

This is not the first time you have mentioned this story, and consequently it's not the first time I have doubts about it.  But that is as irrelevant as your anecdote to the OP.

That's okay; I take your stories with a grain of salt too.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Maria

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Re: Is this the outcome or result of someone who committed suicide?
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2015, 05:06:06 PM »
Greetings,

As it is my understanding that the King of Glory, Christ, knew He would be killed, that in some way He too committed suicide, giving His Own life for His friends.

Or, as an Old Testament foreshadowing offers, God will provide Himself as the sacrifice...

Hopefully I am not stretching this?

forgive me


A suicide is different from a Person offering His life to save the world.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Is this the outcome or result of someone who committed suicide?
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2015, 07:24:36 PM »
Hopefully he didn't do this at the actual funeral - if so, that was very disrespectful to the victim's family.

No, give the priest a break! Sheesh!

I didn't realise that "hopefully" and "if so" meant that Kelly was jumping to conclusions and rashly judging the priest.  Usually, I get that vibe from "No, give the priest a break!" and "Sheesh!".

If Kelly had mentioned this at the parish, she would have been accused of rashly judging that priest.
Oh, and people were upset that this priest gave the Sunday sermon on that topic.
It was a very sensitive topic. No matter what position a person took, tempers flared.

This is not the first time you have mentioned this story, and consequently it's not the first time I have doubts about it.  But that is as irrelevant as your anecdote to the OP.

That's okay; I take your stories with a grain of salt too.

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.