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Author Topic: Pope and the Ecumenical Synods  (Read 1716 times) Average Rating: 0
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Armando
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« on: June 17, 2005, 10:31:32 PM »

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Ecumenical Synods are infallible, right?
And the Eastern "Orthodox" church accepts their infallibility, right?

EXTRACTS FROM THE ACTS. SESSION II. [immediately following the above-cited letter of the Pope to the Synod of Ephesus]
Philip the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See said: There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince (exarkoV) and head of the Apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation (qemelioV) of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to to-day and forever both lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed pope Coelestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place, and us he sent to supply his place in this holy synod, which the most humane and Christian Emperors have commanded to assemble, bearing in mind and continually watching over the Catholic faith.

Council of Chalcedon, 451 [EXTRACTS FROM THE ACTS. SESSION I.]
Paschasinus, the most reverend bishop and legate of the Apostolic See, stood up in the midst with his most reverend colleagues and said: We received directions at the hands of the most blessed and apostolic bishop of the Roman city, which is the head of all the churches, which directions say that Dioscorus is not to be allowed a seat in this assembly, but that if he should attempt to take his seat he is to be cast out. This instruction we must carry out; if now your holiness so commands let him be expelled or else we leave.

Lucentius, the most reverend bishop having the place of the Apostolic See, said: ... And he [Dioscorus] dared to hold a synod without the authority of the Apostolic See, a thing which had never taken place nor can take place.
Paschasinus the most reverend bishop, holding the place of the Apostolic See said: We cannot go counter to the decrees of the most blessed and apostolic bishop ["Pope" for "bishop" in the Latin], who governs the Apostolic See, nor against the ecclesiastical canons nor the patristic traditions.

Lucentius, the most reverend bishop, and legate of the Apostolic See, said: Since the faith of Flavian of blessed memory agrees with the Apostolic See and the tradition of the fathers it is just that the sentence by which he was condemned by the heretics should be turned back upon them by this most holy synod.

THE TOME OF ST. LEO.

Whereupon the blessed Peter, as inspired by God, and about to benefit all nations by his confession, said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." Not undeservedly, therefore, was he pronounced blessed by the Lord, and derived from the original Rock that solidity which belonged both to his virtue and to his name, who through revelation from the Father confessed the selfsame to be both the Son of God and the Christ

EXTRACTS FROM THE ACTS. SESSION II. (continued).

After the reading of the foregoing epistle [the Tome of Leo], the most reverend bishops cried out: This is the faith of the fathers, this is the faith of the Apostles. So we all believe, thus the orthodox believe. Anathema to him who does not thus believe. Peter has spoken thus through Leo. So taught the Apostles. Piously and truly did Leo teach, so taught Cyril. Everlasting be the memory of Cyril. Leo and Cyril taught the same thing, anathema to him who does not so believe. This is the true faith. Those of us who are orthodox thus believe. This is the faith of the fathers. Why were not these things read at Ephesus [i.e. at the heretical synod held there] ? These are the things Dioscorus hid away.

EXTRACTS FROM THE ACTS. SESSION IV.

Paschasinus and Lucentius, the most reverend bishops, and Boniface the most reverend presbyter, legates of the Apostolic See through that most reverend man, bishop Paschasinus said: ... And in the third place the writings of that blessed man, [Pope] Leo, Archbishop of all the churches, who condemned the heresy of Nestorius and Eutyches, shew what the true faith is.

EXTRACTS FROM THE ACTS. SESSION VI.

Lucentius, the bishop, said: The Apostolic See gave orders that all things should be done in our presence [This sentence reads in the Latin: The Apostolic See ought not to be humiliated in our presence. ]; and therefore whatever yesterday was done to the prejudice of the canons during our absence, we beseech your highness to command to be rescinded. But if not, let our opposition be placed in the minutes, and pray let us know clearly [Lat. that we may know] what we are to report to that most apostolic bishop who is the ruler of the whole church [i.e. the Pope], so that he may be able to take action with regard to the indignity done to his See and to the setting at naught of the canons.

Fifth Ecumenical Council: Constantinople II, 553 EXTRACTS FROM THE ACTS. SESSION VII.

But we, bishops, answered him [Pope Vigilius]: "If your blessedness is willing to meet together with us and the most holy Patriarchs, and the most religious bishops, and to treat of the Three Chapters and to give, in unison with us all, a suitable form of the orthodox faith, as the Holy Apostles and the holy Fathers and the four Councils have done, we will hold thee as our head, as a [father] and primate...."



And I have found a lot more at: http://www.globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/ecu.htm


Any comments?
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SeanMc
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« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2005, 10:38:02 PM »

The speeches aren't infallible.
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« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2005, 10:39:50 PM »

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Ecumenical Synods are infallible, right?
And the Eastern "Orthodox" church accepts their infallibility, right?

No, only God is Infallible, and the Acts of the Synods certainly are not, even if the Doctrinal Statements were.
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Armando
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« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2005, 10:44:43 PM »

Listen, I have talked to over 8 Orthodox priests (one of them is my cousin) and they all say that the Pope isn't infallible...They said
only the Ecumenical Synods are. Anyway, I was expecting such reactions... (I mean, everything that we don't like, is false, right?)

But still, weren't the Ecumenical Synods to fight heresies? Why didn't anyone bother to decline with the speeches?
No one stood up to say that the Pope was abusing power or anything? Still, not only did they not decline but they did recognize the Pope's power. So, any comments on they ACTS OF THE SYNODS?

I mean, come on!! You Christian Orthodox people will do ANYTHING just to excuse your Church's existance?!!
« Last Edit: June 17, 2005, 10:46:30 PM by Armando » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2005, 10:48:19 PM »

I noticed, when studying the Acts of Ecumenical Councils from before the Great Schism, that the Pope was often referred to or described there in ways that seem to correspond with the present Catholic view of the Pope rather than with that of the Orthodox, Anglicans, etc.  Here are some of interesting quotes from these Acts and from related documents which can be found here.  I have made liberal use of boldface and underlining to emphasize what I think are the most significant words and phrases, at least with respect to how the Pope was viewed in those times.

The point of all this is the following: it would seem that the Christians of those times, both East and West, agreed with the Catholic-sounding views of the Papacy expressed here. Those I quote believe in what they themselves say, of course. But everyone else also agreed with those views, and this is shown by the fact that no one expressed any disagreement with them. After all, the Ecumenical Councils were where heretical views were supposed to be corrected, and so if there were anything wrong expressed at those councils, it would have been the ideal time to correct those errors. And yet no one did object, despite the fact that these Catholic views of the Papacy were repeated over and over again throughout the councils of the first millennium.


-Quote from the website I mentioned above.
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« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2005, 10:53:52 PM »

Well, those priests are wrong, only God is Infallible, to claim Infallibility is to claim Divinity. Scripture is Sufficient, Councils are Authoritive, God is Infallible.

However, the Church did address this issue to some degree in Synod, in the form of the 28th Canon of Chalcedon, which defined and defended the rights of the Imperial See.
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« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2005, 10:56:08 PM »

Armando,

http://www.oca.org/OCorthfaith.asp?SID=2

If you would liike to learn more about the Orthodox Church, read the above link.

Quote
I mean, come on!! You Christian Orthodox people will do ANYTHING just to excuse your Church's existance?!!

And so will the Catholic Church, including forging documents.
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Armando
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« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2005, 11:00:39 PM »

I agree with all of you... Only GOD is infallible.
But through the epiphotisis of the Holy Spirit isn't the Ecumenical Synod's dicissions and the Pope?
Not that any person is infallible by himslef...
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« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2005, 11:06:22 PM »

I agree with all of you... Only GOD is infallible.
But through the epiphotisis of the Holy Spirit isn't the Ecumenical Synod's dicissions and the Pope?
Not that any person is infallible by himslef...

No, only God...Oecumenical Synods can, and have, errored...as have popes...Honorius comes to mind. God may work through Fathers and Synods, but he does not usurp their Free Will, it is still the Father in his Humanity and Not the Divinity of God that Teaches, Writes, and Decrees, accordingly teachings are subject to error.
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« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2005, 11:07:31 PM »

If you think that Oecumenical Councils are wholly infallible, I wish to point you to the Council of Trent, Session 22, Chapter 9, Canon 9: "If any one saith, that the rite of the Roman Church, according to which a part of the canon and the words of consecration are pronounced in a low tone, is to be condemned; or, that the mass ought to be celebrated in the vulgar tongue only; or, that water ought not to be mixed with the wine that is to be offered in the chalice, for that it is contrary to the institution of Christ; let him be anathema."

John Paul II celebrated the mass in the vernacular many times, I guess he's anathema with the oecumenical councils are fully infallible logic.
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« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2005, 11:37:00 PM »

Dear Armando, can I just poing out that what is mentioned in the ACT's of the ecumenical councils is what was recorded to be said by some. It is for all purpose a TRANSCRIPT. If you are so kind you will notice that the ACT's of the councils have recorded words of heretics that were condemnded by those very councils! So, using your logic are we to think of those statements made by those heretics (that were the very reasons for the councils in the first place) as infallable also?

The CANONS are the product of the Council, not the ACT's.
The CANONS is the formal statement of the Council, not the ACT's.

My whole point is, please be a person that does not fall on the sectarian thinking (cutting out) that is used by many Latin Apologist taday. Sit down and read whole of the history and whole of the Fathers and whole of the canons and then make up you mind. I know that you as a RC like these statements, but they only show your lack of knowledge about the matter.

I am not saying that is wrong or to be judged, really. I am not even attacking you for that. I am just suggesting that if you really want to know something, you need to know it.

God bless you and welcome to the OC.net.
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« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2005, 09:15:07 PM »

I guess I don't understand the fuss.... Wink

Infalliblity (as I see it) is a charism of the Holy Spirit.

One of my favorite Roman Catholic theologians describes it best:
"The men in question (Popes) are so glaringly, so blatantly unequal to this function (the Papacy) that the very empowerment of man to be the rock makes evident how little it is they who sustain the Church but God alone who does so, who does so more in spite of men than through them."

Peace in Christ,
Scott
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« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2005, 09:21:13 PM »

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Ecumenical Synods are infallible, right?

Wrong. See http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=6373.msg83996#msg83996.
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