Author Topic: Flogging yourself  (Read 12883 times)

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #90 on: April 08, 2015, 04:09:20 AM »
Stigmata and self inflicted wounds like flagellation aren't part of Orthodox teaching.

Quote
Professor Sergio Luzzatto claims the 'stigmata' were not a miracle but were self-inflicted wounds using carbolic acid.

He said he has found documents in libraries at the Vatican which apparently included a letter from an Italian pharmacist who claimed to have delivered the acid to the former monk.


Padre Pio's wounds continued to bleed till the end of his life, when they disappeared.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2062103/Padre-Pio-used-carbolic-acid-make-stigmata.html#ixzz3WgFHETlG
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


Because we all know what an impartial and respected source is the Daily Mail...
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Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

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Offline wainscottbl

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #91 on: April 08, 2015, 04:10:59 AM »
Because we all know what an impartial and respected source is the Daily Mail...

I wish this forum had a "like" option.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #92 on: April 08, 2015, 11:59:20 AM »
Because we all know what an impartial and respected source is the Daily Mail...

I wish this forum had a "like" option.
You can just type +1 after a post.


Quote
Certainly there have been fake stigmatics. In a rare moment of skepticism, Michael Freze, author of They Bore the Wounds of Christ: The Mystery of the Sacred Stigmata, admits that "there have been cases where some overly fanatic souls have so desired the Sacred Stigmata that they have intentionally wounded themselves with knives, picks, etc., in order to produce false impressions to others that they were extraordinary saints!" 54 Despite this all-too-brief acknowledgment of deliberately faked stigmata— as if they were uncommon— Freze does admit there are other types of "false Stigmata" which he attributes to such "possible causes" as "diabolical origins; mental disease or sickness; hysteria; self-hypnotic suggestion; and nervous conditions that can cause the skin to redden, break and even bleed." 55 By contrast, in Comparative Miracles the Rev. Smith freely admits that since St. Francis, a great many impostors have attempted to simulate true stigmata. 56

Ian Wilson catalogs several cases of such fakery.For example, Magdalena de la Cruz ( 1487-1560) underwent ecstasies, abstained from food, performed mortifications (self-punishment), and finally exhibited the stigmata—practices that impressed the Spanish nobility, including Queen Isabella herself, and led expectant mothers to seek Magdalena's blessing on their awaited infants' clothing and nursery furniture.Then, becoming seriously ill in 1543 and fearing she would die a sinner, Magdalena suddenly confessed, admitting that for many years she had been practicing deceptions. She was tried by the Inquisition and received a severe sentence. 57 Such a case should give the miraculists pause, since Magdalena's deception went undetected and, had she not confessed of her own volition, she might now be venerated as St. Magdalena—her "ecstasies" and other alleged experiences and manifestations being cited by the credulous as confirmation of her sanctity. (As it is, Freze consigns her fake stigmata to the "diabolical" category, explaining that "the devil" has produced stigmatic marks "many times in the course of Christian history." 58 )

Another fake stigmatic was Maria de la Visitacion (b. 1556) who exhibited a stock set of stigmata, including an inch-long wound in the side and crown-of-thorns puncture marks on the forehead.Maria was exposed by a sister nun who saw her painting a stigma onto her hand, but was defended by doctors in 1587. (Apparently her ploy—that her wounds were unbearably painful to the touch—restricted the examination to mere visual scrutiny.) Eventually Maria was investigated by the Inquisition, whose examiners scrubbed away the "wounds" to reveal unblemished flesh. 59 According to a contemporary report:

Apologetics Index
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/627-stigmata
The website gives other cases of self-inflicted stigmata in Roman Catholicism. This direct, intentional self infliction of bodily harm is not an Orthodox teaching.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2015, 12:05:36 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #93 on: April 08, 2015, 12:04:23 PM »
it is not "wrong" to flog yourself in moderation, such as when being tempted to sin. But it should not leave permanent marks. Of course you can disagree with me, but the benefit here seems to be that the pain helps deter the desire for pleasure. Pain builds character.

It's definitely wrong. Christ's rule is to forgive everyone, forgive your brother's debts, and love your neighbor as yourself. Now if your brother or sister took something to you, would you want them beaten, or instead would you want them to restore your property and never rob you again? Christ commands the latter. And to love others like yourself, you have to be able to ask forgiveness from others you have wronged and reconcile rather than beating yourself. That is very long.

Pain from beatings actually causes masochistic pleasure, one which even the victims are not aware. And no, pain does NOT necessarily "build" character, it can break people down and destroy their character, especially when it is self-inflicted destruction. At least when it is inflicted by others, like a bully, you can persevere against adversity. In self-flagellation you are attacking yourself, not going against adversity. It's very very very wrong.
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #94 on: April 08, 2015, 12:10:01 PM »
it is not "wrong" to flog yourself in moderation, such as when being tempted to sin. But it should not leave permanent marks. Of course you can disagree with me, but the benefit here seems to be that the pain helps deter the desire for pleasure. Pain builds character.

It's definitely wrong. Christ's rule is to forgive everyone, forgive your brother's debts, and love your neighbor as yourself. Now if your brother or sister took something to you, would you want them beaten, or instead would you want them to restore your property and never rob you again? Christ commands the latter. And to love others like yourself, you have to be able to ask forgiveness from others you have wronged and reconcile rather than beating yourself. That is very long.

Pain from beatings actually causes masochistic pleasure, one which even the victims are not aware. And no, pain does NOT necessarily "build" character, it can break people down and destroy their character, especially when it is self-inflicted destruction. At least when it is inflicted by others, like a bully, you can persevere against adversity. In self-flagellation you are attacking yourself, not going against adversity. It's very very very wrong.

Read the lives of the saints, especially St Symeon the Stylite.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #95 on: April 08, 2015, 12:14:55 PM »
Quote
St Symeon the Stylite
I found that he tied ropes on himself over-tight and it bled sometimes. I am not really a fan of drawing blood through self-mortification. In any case, St. Symeon didn't self-flagellate, with all the self-harm, drawing blood/bruising/redness, masochism involved.

John Sandipoulous wrote:
Quote
In the Catholic Church, self-flagellation is done to imitate the sufferings of Christ and has been highly criticized by Orthodox for whom asceticism is a means to calm the passions rather than to create pain. The creation of pain to imitate the sufferings of Christ is very dangerous for the spiritual life and can be a form of delusion (rather than a reason for sainthood as the Catholic Church claims). Archbishop Lazar Puhalo accurately analyzes this, saying: "During the Middle Ages, and particularly following the Black Plague, self-flagellation became popular among monks and nuns in Western Europe. Indeed, flagellation was the source of many of the 'spiritual ecstasies' claimed by Western saints. This is reasonable since flagellation is a form of masturbation. It very quickly becomes a form of sexual addiction. There are many contemporary accounts of the ecstasies aroused by flagellation, especially among nuns. Often, monks would flagellate themselves into a trance and, wounded and bleeding, begin to proclaim revelations they thought they had received from God." - J.S.]
http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/01/pope-john-paul-ii-was-self-flagellator.html
Exactly. This is a real chemical process, even if the person doesn't realize it. There are people who actually pay money to get beatings. it's mentally ill and very harmful spiritually and mentally.


Fr. George Morelli writes:
Quote
Jesus told us that he who has been forgiven much loves much (Luke 7:47). This is love in action, not self-flagellation, and can be the greatest and most joyful way to overcome sin. "O Happy Guilt" encompasses the true meaning of guilt that can be the source of our liberation, healing and deification.
www.antiochian.org/1141352351
« Last Edit: April 08, 2015, 12:20:18 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #96 on: April 08, 2015, 12:36:07 PM »
What I mean is that it's hard to justify blanket prohibitions like "never inflict physical harm on yourself" or "never fast so severely it damages your health", since you're always going to find examples of saints who did exactly that. I think what you can say is "don't do that kind of thing without a blessing", which most of the time you won't get, since for most people these actions are not spiritually beneficial.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #97 on: April 08, 2015, 04:36:58 PM »
Because we all know what an impartial and respected source is the Daily Mail...

I wish this forum had a "like" option.
You can just type +1 after a post.


Quote
Certainly there have been fake stigmatics. In a rare moment of skepticism, Michael Freze, author of They Bore the Wounds of Christ: The Mystery of the Sacred Stigmata, admits that "there have been cases where some overly fanatic souls have so desired the Sacred Stigmata that they have intentionally wounded themselves with knives, picks, etc., in order to produce false impressions to others that they were extraordinary saints!" 54 Despite this all-too-brief acknowledgment of deliberately faked stigmata— as if they were uncommon— Freze does admit there are other types of "false Stigmata" which he attributes to such "possible causes" as "diabolical origins; mental disease or sickness; hysteria; self-hypnotic suggestion; and nervous conditions that can cause the skin to redden, break and even bleed." 55 By contrast, in Comparative Miracles the Rev. Smith freely admits that since St. Francis, a great many impostors have attempted to simulate true stigmata. 56

Ian Wilson catalogs several cases of such fakery.For example, Magdalena de la Cruz ( 1487-1560) underwent ecstasies, abstained from food, performed mortifications (self-punishment), and finally exhibited the stigmata—practices that impressed the Spanish nobility, including Queen Isabella herself, and led expectant mothers to seek Magdalena's blessing on their awaited infants' clothing and nursery furniture.Then, becoming seriously ill in 1543 and fearing she would die a sinner, Magdalena suddenly confessed, admitting that for many years she had been practicing deceptions. She was tried by the Inquisition and received a severe sentence. 57 Such a case should give the miraculists pause, since Magdalena's deception went undetected and, had she not confessed of her own volition, she might now be venerated as St. Magdalena—her "ecstasies" and other alleged experiences and manifestations being cited by the credulous as confirmation of her sanctity. (As it is, Freze consigns her fake stigmata to the "diabolical" category, explaining that "the devil" has produced stigmatic marks "many times in the course of Christian history." 58 )

Another fake stigmatic was Maria de la Visitacion (b. 1556) who exhibited a stock set of stigmata, including an inch-long wound in the side and crown-of-thorns puncture marks on the forehead.Maria was exposed by a sister nun who saw her painting a stigma onto her hand, but was defended by doctors in 1587. (Apparently her ploy—that her wounds were unbearably painful to the touch—restricted the examination to mere visual scrutiny.) Eventually Maria was investigated by the Inquisition, whose examiners scrubbed away the "wounds" to reveal unblemished flesh. 59 According to a contemporary report:

Apologetics Index
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/627-stigmata
The website gives other cases of self-inflicted stigmata in Roman Catholicism. This direct, intentional self infliction of bodily harm is not an Orthodox teaching.

Nobody disputes that there have been fake stigmatics. We just want you to find a better source than the Daily Fish Wrap if you want to throw Padre Pio under the bus.
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

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Offline wainscottbl

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #98 on: April 08, 2015, 08:44:10 PM »


It's definitely wrong. Christ's rule is to forgive everyone, forgive your brother's debts, and love your neighbor as yourself. Now if your brother or sister took something to you, would you want them beaten, or instead would you want them to restore your property and never rob you again? Christ commands the latter. And to love others like yourself, you have to be able to ask forgiveness from others you have wronged and reconcile rather than beating yourself. That is very long.

Pain from beatings actually causes masochistic pleasure, one which even the victims are not aware. And no, pain does NOT necessarily "build" character, it can break people down and destroy their character, especially when it is self-inflicted destruction. At least when it is inflicted by others, like a bully, you can persevere against adversity. In self-flagellation you are attacking yourself, not going against adversity. It's very very very wrong.

I do not want to sound condescending, but I do not think you speak for Orthodoxy on this as an authority. I do not think any of us can, except maybe a priest, and even there maybe not. Because matters like this there may be no clear answer. It's like whether hell is a literal fire or not. You may be right, and I be wrong. Just sayin...and I am not trying to be patronizing.
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #99 on: April 08, 2015, 08:59:17 PM »
Quote
Indeed, flagellation was the source of many of the 'spiritual ecstasies' claimed by Western saints. This is reasonable since flagellation is a form of masturbation. It very quickly becomes a form of sexual addiction.

I guess if the Khlysty had gotten started in 1990 instead of the 17th century, their hymns might have gone something like this:

Quote
I don't want anybody else
When I think about You, I flog myself....
« Last Edit: April 08, 2015, 09:00:36 PM by Minnesotan »
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline wainscottbl

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #100 on: April 08, 2015, 09:37:42 PM »
Quote
Indeed, flagellation was the source of many of the 'spiritual ecstasies' claimed by Western saints. This is reasonable since flagellation is a form of masturbation. It very quickly becomes a form of sexual addiction.

Some people do like bondage fantasies. They may even use them as part of their masturbation. Alright, but that's ridiculous to say that a person who whips themselves from spiritual reasons is subconsciously satisfying some sexual desire to be whipped.

Anyway this makes sense:

Quote
There are many contemporary accounts of the ecstasies aroused by flagellation, especially among nuns. Often, monks would flagellate themselves into a trance and, wounded and bleeding, begin to proclaim revelations they thought they had received from God

This is why when I read about St Dominic's vision in the forest where he went out fasting for days until he passed out (when he received the Rosary) I was wondering if maybe that extreme self harm to the point of passing out could have caused it. I also thought there was something wrong with doing that to be honest. But of course you read that those who were opposed to the Rosary (not because it was praying to the Virgin as Protestants are, but for whatever Catholic reason) were punished by God with death, etc. So you feel like you HAVE to believe it. I don't know. I believed it, and maybe I still do, but I do not like the idea of harming yourself so much that you pass out. But I still hold that a little flogging is fine.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #101 on: April 08, 2015, 09:54:02 PM »
Quote
Indeed, flagellation was the source of many of the 'spiritual ecstasies' claimed by Western saints. This is reasonable since flagellation is a form of masturbation. It very quickly becomes a form of sexual addiction.

Some people do like bondage fantasies. They may even use them as part of their masturbation. Alright, but that's ridiculous to say that a person who whips themselves from spiritual reasons is subconsciously satisfying some sexual desire to be whipped.

...

But I still hold that a little flogging is fine.
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Offline Theophania

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #102 on: April 08, 2015, 09:56:00 PM »
I can't decide what kind of flogging you guys are talking about.

Happy Holy Week, y'all!
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #103 on: April 08, 2015, 10:11:20 PM »
I can't decide what kind of flogging you guys are talking about.
Well, don't beat yourself up over it.

Please.
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Offline wainscottbl

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #104 on: April 08, 2015, 10:42:08 PM »
I can't decide what kind of flogging you guys are talking about.

Happy Holy Week, y'all!

There's flogging with sticks, flogging with boards, flogging with chains, flogging with spiked chains, flogging with boards with nails in it, flogging with paddles, flogging with hands, flogging with kids Hot Wheels race track pieces (one of my old punishments as a child), even flogging with those things you open and close your blinds with (another spanking stick for me), and even flogging with flip-flops. There are all sorts of floggings.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #105 on: April 08, 2015, 11:32:37 PM »
logging with paddles, flogging with hands, flogging with kids Hot Wheels race track pieces (one of my old punishments as a child), even flogging with those things you open and close your blinds with (another spanking stick for me), and even flogging with flip-flops.

 :o ??? ::) :-X

Wow.

Wow.



Exactly. This thread is about crypto-masochism.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2015, 11:32:54 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #106 on: April 08, 2015, 11:57:12 PM »
I can't decide what kind of flogging you guys are talking about.

Happy Holy Week, y'all!

There's flogging with sticks, flogging with boards, flogging with chains, flogging with spiked chains, flogging with boards with nails in it, flogging with paddles, flogging with hands, flogging with kids Hot Wheels race track pieces (one of my old punishments as a child), even flogging with those things you open and close your blinds with (another spanking stick for me), and even flogging with flip-flops. There are all sorts of floggings.

I think you forgot the most important one: flogging the dolphin. Which really, self-flagellation always seemed like a poor substitute. Real saints trying to destroy the passions dip their fingers into a flame.
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

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Offline wainscottbl

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #107 on: April 09, 2015, 03:32:26 AM »
logging with paddles, flogging with hands, flogging with kids Hot Wheels race track pieces (one of my old punishments as a child), even flogging with those things you open and close your blinds with (another spanking stick for me), and even flogging with flip-flops.

 :o ??? ::) :-X

Wow.


Wow.



Exactly. This thread is about crypto-masochism.

Yes, total crypto stuff! Just ask Alex Jones!



Yes, and Alex Jones just finished masturbating himself into a seizure. Supposedly that is pretty much what some saints did according to a quote you posted above. ;D ;) :P :-X

 Actually, there are seizures that become "visions" or mystical episodes. Mohammed had them. Dostoyevsky, too. I think I have had two or three. Not that you see visions per se, but you become very happy and spiritual. But you can have hallucinations, though they are not psychological, but neurological in the case of a seizure. Sort of like hallucinations during a severe fever or with a tumor. The person is not crazy who has them with a tumor or epileptic seizure. But you can induce these things, as maybe some saints did. Mohammed had them. He would come out of his seizure and not be sure if what he dictated was true or false. You see, you have a sort of ecstatic period, where you speak of lofty things, and then you fall down into convulsions. Mohammed dictated the Qu'ran and then would go into convulsions.

My guess is that some saints did this. Some have speculated on this, including St. Paul. St. Dominic was doing harsh things to himself in the forest when he fell into an "ecstasy". As an epileptic who is very interested in my disease, my reading makes me guess it was some kind of seizure, though not epileptic perhaps. You see, if a person drinks very heavily or something, it can cause seizures. And harsh penance or anything that is too hard on the body/brain. The brain gets overloaded.

Anyway, I am against these harsh things we read of Western saints doing. I always was a bit wary of it. It just seemed "fanatical" to me. Did the Desert Fathers do stuff like this?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 03:35:02 AM by wainscottbl »
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #108 on: April 09, 2015, 03:48:31 AM »


I can't tell you how relieving it is to not deal with that urge any more  8)

Offline wainscottbl

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #109 on: April 09, 2015, 04:04:00 AM »


I can't tell you how relieving it is to not deal with that urge any more  8)

So you are saying I'm wrong. Put em up, put em up! I'll come to your house and pour water on your computer....then I'll flog you.
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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #110 on: April 09, 2015, 04:29:16 AM »
Courtesy of your classy local Jackson, Mississippi abortion clinic.



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Offline wainscottbl

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #111 on: April 09, 2015, 08:35:32 AM »
Courtesy of your classy local Jackson, Mississippi abortion clinic.



Selam

?????

Sad, but I think you posted on the wrong thread.
The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet.
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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #112 on: April 09, 2015, 09:22:32 AM »
Courtesy of your classy local Jackson, Mississippi abortion clinic.



Selam

?????

Sad, but I think you posted on the wrong thread.

Look on the far right; the words "Go Flog Yourself" are written in spraypaint stencil.
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline wainscottbl

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #113 on: April 09, 2015, 05:01:23 PM »
Courtesy of your classy local Jackson, Mississippi abortion clinic.



Selam

?????

Sad, but I think you posted on the wrong thread.

Look on the far right; the words "Go Flog Yourself" are written in spraypaint stencil.

Yes, I just saw it! That's nuts. "Women are the divine!"  "Get some condom sense"

I don't get the "Go flog yourself" in this context.
The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #114 on: April 09, 2015, 05:56:58 PM »


I can't tell you how relieving it is to not deal with that urge any more  8)
How'd you do it?
The ocean, impassable by men, and the world beyond it are directed by the same ordinances of the Master. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #115 on: April 09, 2015, 05:58:23 PM »


I can't tell you how relieving it is to not deal with that urge any more  8)
How'd you do it?

It involves coming to the realization that your failure to convince other people of their mistakes is not necessarily a poor reflection on yourself.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #116 on: April 09, 2015, 06:01:06 PM »


I can't tell you how relieving it is to not deal with that urge any more  8)
How'd you do it?

It involves coming to the realization that your failure to convince other people of their mistakes is not necessarily a poor reflection on yourself.

I just spent a few hours on a Skeptics (doubters') forum where 83% of skeptics polled said there is no reason to question the official narrative on 9/11. I tried to explain to the skeptics that actually, reasons to question things exist even if you do not agree with dissident conclusions drawn from those questions. I think I will have to leave that debate "unresolved".
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 06:04:20 PM by rakovsky »
The ocean, impassable by men, and the world beyond it are directed by the same ordinances of the Master. ~ I Clement 20

Offline wainscottbl

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #117 on: April 09, 2015, 06:10:03 PM »


I can't tell you how relieving it is to not deal with that urge any more  8)
How'd you do it?

It involves coming to the realization that your failure to convince other people of their mistakes is not necessarily a poor reflection on yourself.

I just spent a few hours on a Skeptics (doubters') forum where 83% of skeptics polled said there is no reason to question the official narrative on 9/11. I tried to explain to the skeptics that actually, reasons to question things exist even if you do not agree with dissident conclusions drawn from those questions. I think I will have to leave that debate "unresolved".

You are a conspiracy theorist is you are skeptical about 9/11, but it's okay to be skeptical about God's existence, because that's just hip. I mean you're really smart if you believe God does not exist. But you're really stupid if you believe in God and that 9/11 was an inside job. Have you ever been to RationalWiki? It's disgustingly smug. All they do is mock. This is why I appreciate the idea of the holy fool or the wise idiot. There was this hillbilly on the bus at the hospital the other day, and he was much more wise I would say, than most intelligent people. He was simple, perhaps of average/below average intelligence, but wise I gathered from what he said. Intellectualism is a vile thing. Intellect is one thing, but "rationalists....
The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet.
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Offline stella1990

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #118 on: December 21, 2015, 06:43:12 PM »
Some stuff like this makes me sick...

If some nun or monk has real problems about chastity maybe it could be an option... (and even it's scary).
But making it the rule for all nuns/monks????? I one reads ex nuns testimonies in internet one can find that this practice is common and they are flogging every week, depending on the order. Maybe 3 times per week.
For me , this is insane... it makes me feel God as an angry God who only wants us to suffer. I don't see how a loving God would want his most loved sons/daughters to suffer so much.

I know that monastic life is a hard life. One has to renounce to all worldy things and live in poverty, obey superiors  and a strict rule of life and remain chaste. But that is one thing... and another very different is inflicting oneself physical harm as common weekly practice just because saints did it.

Thanks God orthodoxy doesn't have this as a common practice.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 06:44:50 PM by stella1990 »

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #119 on: December 21, 2015, 07:29:47 PM »
I am not aware of self-flagellation as being a practice in the Bible or as something that the Fathers taught was normal.

Paul writes: "I chastise* my body and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps when I have preached to others I myself should be castaway" (1 Cor 9:27)

But this * is better translated as treat severely, exhaust, harass discipline with hardship. See for example where this same word is translated as "wear out" here: Luke 18:5
Lopukhin's commentary is that this refers to Paul's self-deprivations.

This just does not seem wholesome to me:




Self-flagellating nun
« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 07:30:31 PM by rakovsky »
The ocean, impassable by men, and the world beyond it are directed by the same ordinances of the Master. ~ I Clement 20

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #120 on: December 21, 2015, 07:52:55 PM »
This anti-Orthodox website claims:

Quote
Geronda Ephraim has stated that Elder Joseph the Hesychast use to hit him and his other monastics; both with his cane as well as with slaps across the face and head, as a form of disciplinary action.


The following article is taken from the 4th Chapter of History of Flagellation Among Different Nations. New York: Medical Publishing Co., 1930: pp. 47-53.
  • self-flagellation made no part of the rules or statutes in those early stages of Christianity...
    Nay more, we find that bishops during the very first times of Christianity, assumed the paternal power we mention, even with regard to persons who were bound to them by no vow whatever, when they happened to have been guilty either of breaches of piety or of heresy. Of this, a remarkable proof may be deduced from the 59th Epistle of St. Augustin, which he wrote to the Tribune Marcellinus, concerning the Donatists. St. Augustin expresses himself in the following words: “Do not recede from that parental diligence you have manifested in your researches after offenders; in which you have succeeded to procure confessions of such great crimes, not by using racks, red-hot blades of iron, or flames, but only by the application of rods. This is a method of coercion which is frequently practiced by teachers of the fine arts upon their pupils, by parents upon their children, and often also by bishops upon those whom they find to have been guilty of offences.”

    Another proof of this power of flagellation, assumed by bishops in very early times, may be derived from the account which Cyprianus has given of Cesarius, Bishop of Arles; who says, that that bishop endeavoured as much as possible, in the exercise of his power, to keep within the bounds of moderation prescribed by the Law of Moses. The following are Cyprianus’s words: “This holy man took constant care that those who were subjected to his authority, whether they were of a free or servile condition, when they were to be flagellated for some offence they had committed, should not receive more than thirty-nine stripes. If any of them, however, had been guilty of a previous fault, then indeed he permitted them to be again lashed a few days afterwards, though with a smaller number of stripes.”
    "When they were to be flagellated for some offence they had committed, they did not receive more than 39 stripes."
https://scottnevinssuicide.wordpress.com/2015/02/page/2/

« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 07:56:36 PM by rakovsky »
The ocean, impassable by men, and the world beyond it are directed by the same ordinances of the Master. ~ I Clement 20