Author Topic: Flogging yourself  (Read 12851 times)

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Offline wainscottbl

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Flogging yourself
« on: April 03, 2015, 04:52:49 AM »
Orthodox tradition or not? Any tradition of it in the Desert Fathers?
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2015, 05:01:29 AM »
A lot of the early Syrian monks did similar things. It never saw wide acceptance as it did in Medieval Western Europe. though. St. Benedict is probably the biggest exception.

I've heard that Elder Ephraim's monasteries in the US advise light flogging that leaves no marks. I don't know how accurate that is, though.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 05:02:18 AM by Volnutt »
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Offline mabsoota

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2015, 05:47:38 PM »
no. no. no.
just no.
 :police:

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2015, 06:12:11 PM »
Which definition of flogging are we using here?
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Offline Antonis

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2015, 06:19:51 PM »
Yes, it exists in the Orthodox tradition, but its practitioners weren't romantics about it and probably didn't write poetry about it either.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 06:20:06 PM by Antonis »
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

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Offline hecma925

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2015, 06:24:04 PM »
Which definition of flogging are we using here?

What do the elders of Christian Domestic Discipline say?
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Offline Elisha

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2015, 06:34:36 PM »
A lot of the early Syrian monks did similar things. It never saw wide acceptance as it did in Medieval Western Europe. though. St. Benedict is probably the biggest exception.

I've heard that Elder Ephraim's monasteries in the US advise light flogging that leaves no marks. I don't know how accurate that is, though.

That's sounds like it would be akin to me slapping myself in the face lightly to stay awake the last 20 miles at night to get home without falling asleep.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2015, 06:36:22 PM »
A lot of the early Syrian monks did similar things. It never saw wide acceptance as it did in Medieval Western Europe. though. St. Benedict is probably the biggest exception.

I've heard that Elder Ephraim's monasteries in the US advise light flogging that leaves no marks. I don't know how accurate that is, though.

That's sounds like it would be akin to me slapping myself in the face lightly to stay awake the last 20 miles at night to get home without falling asleep.

From what I read, that's the sort of thing they compare it to. But this is second hand info.
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Offline wainscottbl

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2015, 07:01:56 PM »
Yes, to temper the passions. The Latin tradition may look more at penance as punishment, too, but it is also, even there, about tempering your passions. But I would say in the East is not really at all about punishing yourself, but healing yourself. You sinfulness, or sinful inclinations. Like fasting.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 07:04:30 PM by wainscottbl »
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Offline Antonis

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2015, 07:03:59 PM »
A lot of the early Syrian monks did similar things. It never saw wide acceptance as it did in Medieval Western Europe. though. St. Benedict is probably the biggest exception.

I've heard that Elder Ephraim's monasteries in the US advise light flogging that leaves no marks. I don't know how accurate that is, though.

That's sounds like it would be akin to me slapping myself in the face lightly to stay awake the last 20 miles at night to get home without falling asleep.

From what I read, that's the sort of thing they compare it to. But this is second hand info.
In the Athonite tradition, sometimes a wooden dowel is used when fleshly temptations are too great. As a regular attendee of Ephraim monasteries, I can tell you this is not something I have ever heard the monks advocating, let alone mentioning, though it is possible that some of them utilize such methods under the guidance of the superior.
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

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Letter to Diognetus 11.4

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2015, 07:10:27 PM »
Personally I don't find that it really works for me. But if it helps somebody, I can't judge.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2015, 07:50:45 PM »
I believe that this is a sinful practice. The reason is that one's body when dedicated to Christ is to be a Temple for God. Paul compares it to a vessel filled with Christ's spirit. The world inflicts enough suffering, fear, and beatings, sometimes real ones.





If you are physically beating yourself, then it is like beating on your church building. This is not acceptable.

I do think that Western Christianity focuses more on Christ's Passion as far as relative emphasis goes. So I understand why it would catch on more there.

It doesn't exist as part of Biblical tradition as far as I can tell. Eunichism seemed to exist among some Christians in the first few centuries. I don't think there was really a sufficient justification given for that, as far as I know.

I think that the practice comes from mental illness, masochism or some other unhealthy desire. It's probably an occasional practice in society that people don't discuss openly. If you watch the beginning of the movie Secretary, the lady protagonist cuts her skin in order to relieve tension or feelings of inadequacy or humiliation. However, the practitioners happen to be religious in the case of religious self-flogging.

It's a very bad practice and Yes, it's sinful because it means harming your body that is supposed to be God's Temple.  It's one thing to practice asceticism, fasting, prayer, just like one might want to have an ascetic church that is not gawdy. But it's quite a different, negative act to perform self harm and pain - sometimes drawing blood or bruing, like it would be to bang on the walls of your church, knock its paint off, or dent it.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2015, 09:07:18 PM »
Nothing is more damaging to the body than allowing it to be killed for your faith in Christ.

But nobody is talking about intentionally permanent damage here. A few Saints are said to have ruined their health, but these are clearly exceptions and not rules.

To belabor the building analogy, it's like replacing shingles or scraping off dead paint, not harming for harm's sake.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 09:09:18 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2015, 11:16:44 PM »
Nothing is more damaging to the body than allowing it to be killed for your faith in Christ.

But nobody is talking about intentionally permanent damage here. A few Saints are said to have ruined their health, but these are clearly exceptions and not rules.

To belabor the building analogy, it's like replacing shingles or scraping off dead paint, not harming for harm's sake.
Hi Volnutt.

It's true that being martyred by people for Christ is damaging to one's health and to the Temple of one's body, just as flogging is. However, directly killing oneself with the claim that it is for Christ, by itself is not just damaging to the body, but it would be a perversion of Christian thinking, and likewise so would self-flogging be.

So long as we follow the Biblical logic of martyrdom or persecution, the person does not directly play the leading role of arranging for themselves to be killed or flogged. Rather, the person is subjected by the persecutors to be killed or flogged. It makes sense when Paul showed his flog marks for Christ as a sign of his piety when they were inflicted by others against his will, but would be nonsensical and self-destructive if he showed them self-inflicted flog marks and wounds as part of a religion that is about healing wounds.

Secondly, it doesn't matter if the damage is permanent, it's still damage and harm to the Temple of a Christian body. Anyway, I tend to think that whipping oneself with a leather lash does sometimes cause permanent scars, especially when it draws blood.

Third
, it is not like replacing shingles or scraping dead paint. In those cases of normal scraping it is only a physical "healing" or "reparation" of the church building. The analogy of building repairs on the body would be getting a hair cut or shower, which means cutting off dead hair cells or washing dead skin ones off.

However, to take a church building with new paint and then beat it or scrape its paint off, respectively, would at best be a waste. Also, walls that have been excessively scraped and repainted due tend to look different than fresh walls with new paint.

Really, to give an exact analogy, you would say that due to the damage from weather like wind and rain, shingles and paint gets hurt and needs to be repaired or repainted. However, it would be wrong to intentionally put water on a fine church to damage it as if it were from the weather, even if later you decided to repair it. Likewise, it's true that in life sometimes people hurt each other physically and then the body needs to heal itself and get rid of redness or bruises. But it would be wrong to intentionally bruise or hurt yourself with serious pain when your body is healthy and does not need such pain, especially when the body is to be God's Temple.
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Offline recent convert

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2015, 11:23:17 PM »
I think flogging oneself is alien to Orthodox tradition. The primary physical exertion in repentance within Orthodoxy seems to be tears going back to the Desert monks.

For ex. St. Isaiah the solitary (4th c.)

"If your heart comes to feel a natural hatred for sin, it has defeated the causes of sin & freed itself from them. Keep hell's torments in mind; but know that your Helper is at hand. Do nothing that will grieve Him, but say to Him with tears:" Be merciful and deliver me, O Lord, for without Thy help I cannot escape from the hands of my enemies." Be attentive to your heart, and He will guard you from all evil."  Philokalia vol. I, On Guarding the Intellect (#6).

Tears is a frequently indexed term in the Philokalia. Russian ascetics like St. Nil Sorski (15th c.) & St. Ignatius Brianchaninov (19th c.) carried on technique of tears in the tradition of repentance.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 11:26:26 PM by recent convert »
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2015, 12:19:21 AM »
I have never understood the idea of flogging... Can a westerner explain this to me?  I know this doesn't replace true confession so what the heck is this practice supposed to accomplish anyway?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 12:22:06 AM by JoeS2 »

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2015, 12:24:27 AM »
I have never understood the idea of flogging... Can a westerner explain this to me?  I know this doesn't replace true confession so what the heck is this practice supposed to accomplish anyway?

Mortification of the flesh, same as fasting. Some like Ven. Matt Talbot did it as a show of devotion as well, to identify with the sufferings of Christ or the Theotokos.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 12:24:53 AM by Volnutt »
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Offline wgw

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2015, 12:30:10 AM »
I believe that flogging oneself is unorthodox and although some Orthodox saints did do it, they are outnumbered by those who did not, and their actions can be regarded as errors and not part of Holy Tradition.  One must remember individual saints are not infallible; they can make mistakes and do unwise or even evil things.  I think the fact that St. Anthony, who no one can accuse of indulging himself, did not do this, but was rather flogged by demons according to St. Athanasius, shows that when we flog ourselves, we are doing the demons work for them.

Also, if it's ok to flog oneself, why stop there?  Why not allow castration?  Oh, right, Canon I of Nicea.  Which takes us to this point: if castration makes one a self-murderer according to Nicea, then surely flogging oneself makes one a self-abuser?
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2015, 12:50:56 AM »
I believe that flogging oneself is unorthodox and although some Orthodox saints did do it, they are outnumbered by those who did not, and their actions can be regarded as errors and not part of Holy Tradition.  One must remember individual saints are not infallible; they can make mistakes and do unwise or even evil things.  I think the fact that St. Anthony, who no one can accuse of indulging himself, did not do this, but was rather flogged by demons according to St. Athanasius, shows that when we flog ourselves, we are doing the demons work for them.

Also, if it's ok to flog oneself, why stop there?  Why not allow castration?  Oh, right, Canon I of Nicea.  Which takes us to this point: if castration makes one a self-murderer according to Nicea, then surely flogging oneself makes one a self-abuser?

Perhaps.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2015, 01:06:57 AM »
I have never understood the idea of flogging... Can a westerner explain this to me?  I know this doesn't replace true confession so what the heck is this practice supposed to accomplish anyway?

Mortification of the flesh, same as fasting.
It's certainly not the same as fasting. With fasting the person avoids meats and other foods, but they do not fast from all foods enough for it to be harmful. The longest total fast is one right before Paskha Sunday, which lasts at least 24 hours. But this should not be enough to actually hurt the person's body.

With self-lashing or beaing with other serious objects then the victim incurs bruises or redness (capillaries broken) or external bleeding, which all reflect bodily harm.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2015, 01:16:44 AM »
I believe that flogging oneself is unorthodox and although some Orthodox saints did do it, they are outnumbered by those who did not, and their actions can be regarded as errors and not part of Holy Tradition.  One must remember individual saints are not infallible; they can make mistakes and do unwise or even evil things.  I think the fact that St. Anthony, who no one can accuse of indulging himself, did not do this, but was rather flogged by demons according to St. Athanasius, shows that when we flog ourselves, we are doing the demons work for them.
Yes, WGW.

Outside of the religious context, people do this to themselves out of humiliation, regret over mistakes, depression, feelings of worthlessness like in the S/M movie Secretary where the protagonist replaced her self-harm with her lover's beatings.

The psychology of self inflicted floggings even in the religious context is similar, where the person feels alienation, is angry at themselves for their sinfulness, etc. And rather turning their feelings to strong prayers for God's salvation from any harm or punishments, they inflict harm on themselves as punishment. It's actually a sinful practice that the person has confused with religion.

It would be like being mad at a close relative and beating them for a mistake they made when instead you have to learn forgiveness. Except in this case, the self flogging is a total perversion and the victim is oneself.

By the way, there really was a heretical self-flogging sect
in Russia called the Khlysty (whippers) at least in the 19th century. Rasputin I hink came from this sect. I also think that there is a physical enjoyment from the practice, like the pain of weight lifting. This just reflects more that it is a bad practice as the person receives pleasure from something unhealthy.
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2015, 01:21:43 AM »
The Fathers of the 3rd Council of Cyrene (413) decided that "thuddy" pain was completely forbidden, but that "stingy" pain was ok as long as the body was fully healed within 24 hours. This is a local council though, and has not been universally accepted.

BZZT.

Now for really. I don't know about all that. There are stories about taking on unnecessary hardship and difficulties. Certainly some of this was for general subduing of the body, though it could also be done with a more specific goal in mind and for only a short time. Of course there is the infamous example of St. John Chrysostom, who caused serious damage by being hard on his body, and then spent years going to hot baths and the like just trying to get some relief.
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Offline wainscottbl

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2015, 03:11:35 AM »
How about the itchy jacket thing whose proper name I cannot think of? It does not cause damage to the body, only discomfort. I am not asking this because I want to do it, but more out of curiosity by the way.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2015, 03:25:29 AM »
How about the itchy jacket thing whose proper name I cannot think of? It does not cause damage to the body, only discomfort. I am not asking this because I want to do it, but more out of curiosity by the way.

You're probably thinking of a hairshirt.
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Offline wainscottbl

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2015, 03:53:34 AM »
How about the itchy jacket thing whose proper name I cannot think of? It does not cause damage to the body, only discomfort. I am not asking this because I want to do it, but more out of curiosity by the way.

You're probably thinking of a hairshirt.

Yep. Thanks!
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2015, 07:34:14 AM »
Oh yes. Flogging and convert issues. Welcome to internets.
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2015, 10:15:50 AM »
Have we already forgotten the lesson of Dostoevsky's flogged horse...?  8)
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2015, 11:32:39 AM »
Quote
The theology is obviously a ritualized pseudo-Christian theology, far enough from any sort of mainstream Christianity that it would be hard to imagine a mainstream Christian believing to be true. Moreover, most of the DDers belong to mainstream churches... What I think is really happening is:

a) They believe in orthodox Christian doctrine
b) They have sexual fantasies about redemption through personal suffering
c) They verbalize those fantasies using quasi Christian language
d) They are well aware their verbalizations are not orthodoxy nor do they represent their real beliefs.

You can tell this by the fact that all keep their kids out of the DD relationships.
http://church-discipline.blogspot.com/2008/01/open-discussion-on-domestic.html

This is all really really really unhealthy.
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Offline sheep100

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2015, 12:32:44 PM »
I think flogging is fully within the Orthodox tradition of mortification of the flesh. The stories
of the desert fathers and other ancient ascetics are full of extreme examples of disciplining the
body that sometimes make flogging yourself look easy by comparison. I think a lot of people
are squeamish about flogging because they are afraid that by endorsing it they will look fanatical
or deranged to the world. That said more extreme forms of mortification should probably be
overseen by a spiritual father to make sure things don't get out of hand, or to avoid it becoming
a way to boost the ego of the person.

"Athletes exercise self-control in all things; they do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable one.  26 So I do not run aimlessly, nor do I box as though beating the air;  27 but I punish my body and enslave it, so that after proclaiming to others I myself should not be disqualified" 1 Corinthians 9:25-27
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 12:36:01 PM by sheep100 »

Offline wgw

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2015, 08:55:28 PM »
Really?  In the Sayings of the Desert Fathers I never read of any flogging themselves.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2015, 09:06:26 PM »
I think flogging is fully within the Orthodox tradition of mortification of the flesh. The stories
of the desert fathers and other ancient ascetics are full of extreme examples of disciplining the
body that sometimes make flogging yourself look easy by comparison.
OK, but still it is not actual flogging. The stigmata is not part of our Tradition either.

It is not a matter of what is "easy". John the Baptist eating locusts didn't have it "easy." But he did not actually directly inflict painful beatings on himself. He was an ascetic who kept away from worldly needs as he could, and he was not a self-beater.

Flogging is not within the Orthodox tradition of the mortification of the flesh if it is not within our Orthodox practice. Our bodies are God's temples and that is why we do not abuse them.


Quote
I think a lot of people are squeamish about flogging because they are afraid that by endorsing it they will look fanatical or deranged to the world.
It is deranged.

Quote
"Athletes exercise self-control in all things; they do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable one.  26 So I do not run aimlessly, nor do I box as though beating the air;  27 but I punish my body and enslave it, so that after proclaiming to others I myself should not be disqualified" 1 Corinthians 9:25-27
Nowhere does it say to inflict actual beatings. If you are beating yourself, you aren't in self control, or else you wouldn't feel the strange desire to beat yourself. Instead of doing physical training like an athlete, Paul says that he does spiritual training, which again, we have no evidence that it included actual self-beatings.
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Offline wgw

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2015, 09:16:51 PM »
Quote
The theology is obviously a ritualized pseudo-Christian theology, far enough from any sort of mainstream Christianity that it would be hard to imagine a mainstream Christian believing to be true. Moreover, most of the DDers belong to mainstream churches... What I think is really happening is:

a) They believe in orthodox Christian doctrine
b) They have sexual fantasies about redemption through personal suffering
c) They verbalize those fantasies using quasi Christian language
d) They are well aware their verbalizations are not orthodoxy nor do they represent their real beliefs.

You can tell this by the fact that all keep their kids out of the DD relationships.
http://church-discipline.blogspot.com/2008/01/open-discussion-on-domestic.html

This is all really really really unhealthy.

If a couple engages in spankings for recreational purposes I can't object to it, except if they also spank their kids, which would add a perverse dimension; IMO the marriage bed is as a rule normally undefiled, although there are some fathers like St. Augustine who would disagree with me on this point.  But from my perspective if such spanking assists the couple in procreation, and the family doesn't use spanking on their children, then it's not a huge problem.  Although more extreme forms of BDSM are certainly problematic and indicative of sex addiction.

Which takes us to the fact that some monks may be masochists, or some nuns, and thus, might do this for the wrong reasons.  Or become addicted to it.  My friend Colin who works in advertising, and is non Orthodox but nominally Christian and profoundly wise and loving, with a large family, believes all forms of spanking are addictive and psychologically unhealthy.  He's managed to raise 6 children without hitting them, despite being married to a Ghanaian (he himself is British of Guyanan extraction) who views such spanking as normal and would have done it otherwise.

The hair shirt is one of two aspects of Carthusian life I find problematic.  I love the model of hermits supported by cenobitic brethren so that they may focus on intellectual work for the church, historically the copying of manuscripts, and more importantly, on a life of pure prayer.   However I dislike the reluctance of most charter houses to accept guests,,which violates what I regard as the fundamental principle of monastic hospitality; even if a monastery can't accept overnight guests or guests of the opposite sex, it should still be able to receive them for church services.  And the wearing of hair shirts is IMO an unacceptable mortification.

Now, I love praying on my knees, in a full metanie, for 15-45 minutes; this can be mildly uncomfortable but I take every step to minimize the discomfort, and regard it as a mortification of the flesh to the extent there is any.  But the benefit of prayer in such a posture comes not from the discomfort but from the profound sense of blissful submission to God it produces.  And what is more the discomfort is very minimal, and goes way immediately with no soreness after the prayer, and if I could pray in that position with no discomfort I would.  But my house has wooden and tile floors which are hard.  If I had soft, heavily padded carpets I think it would solve that problem.   I also rest my forehead on my hands to reduce neck strain, increase comfort and make breathing that much easier.

« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 09:17:08 PM by wgw »
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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2015, 10:19:17 PM »
I think flogging is fully within the Orthodox tradition of mortification of the flesh. The stories
of the desert fathers and other ancient ascetics are full of extreme examples of disciplining the
body that sometimes make flogging yourself look easy by comparison. I think a lot of people
are squeamish about flogging because they are afraid that by endorsing it they will look fanatical
or deranged to the world. That said more extreme forms of mortification should probably be
overseen by a spiritual father to make sure things don't get out of hand, or to avoid it becoming
a way to boost the ego of the person.

"Athletes exercise self-control in all things; they do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable one.  26 So I do not run aimlessly, nor do I box as though beating the air;  27 but I punish my body and enslave it, so that after proclaiming to others I myself should not be disqualified" 1 Corinthians 9:25-27

Punishing my body could also mean extreme fasting..   I still don't get flogging.  Unless it is to remind the individual who is flogging himself that he has to remember not to sin BUT that only comes from consoling God through prayer.  God doesn't require FLOGGING he requires us to change and become one with HIM.....  Flogging is only an external way of letting others know you are penitent and that's a no-no .   This is to be kept secret without others knowing just what you are going through. 

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2015, 10:24:29 PM »
There is of course the cilice, a spiked instrument worn under the clothing by members of opus Dei.  Which I find equally abhorrent.

But at least you can't accuse Opus Dei of flaunting their mortification, so I would resort to analogically extension of canon 1 of Nicea.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 10:26:05 PM by wgw »
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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2015, 10:45:54 PM »
There is of course the cilice, a spiked instrument worn under the clothing by members of opus Dei.  Which I find equally abhorrent.

But at least you can't accuse Opus Dei of flaunting their mortification, so I would resort to analogically extension of canon 1 of Nicea.

Flogging is not the way to redemption. Change of life is.... No amount of self immulation will gain one ounce of forgiveness from God.   This is what separates the RCC from the Orthodox...
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 10:46:59 PM by JoeS2 »

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2015, 10:56:22 PM »
I agree entirely.
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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2015, 11:35:27 PM »
Ironically, recent medical studies have shown that castration actually slows aging and extends lifespan by ~ 17 years, that eunuchs are generally healthier in their old age and that testosterone is mildly poisonous.

I guess all that goes to show is that "what is good for the body" from a modern medical perspective, and from the perspective of the Fathers/Nicea, are not necessarily the same thing. How should we respond to that information?

I suspect, though, that celibates who are not eunuchs would show a similar extension in lifespan. I do know that monks have similarly long and healthy lives despite not castrating. Perhaps abstaining from sexual activity of all kinds will gradually cause the sex drive and hormone levels to disappear on their own anyway, without the need for physical castration.

Hmm, I think I just answered my own question.
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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2015, 11:40:55 PM »
Flogging : has it ever gotten anyone in to Heaven ?

Factoid: You can not get your self into heaven by self immulating. You need God's Mercy.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 11:42:50 PM by JoeS2 »

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #38 on: April 05, 2015, 12:05:36 AM »
Regarding the hairshirt/cilice, if I'm not mistaken, Ivan the Terrible wore one. It also wasn't unheard of during the patristic era although it was nowhere close to being ubiquitous.

Sackcloth is a very similar material that is similarly itchy. However, the purpose of wearing sackcloth during Biblical times was not self-harm (there does not appear to be any tradition of self-mortification in Old Testament times, and Judaism still forbids it), but rather just as an outward sign of penance and humility.
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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2015, 12:13:53 AM »
I have no idea what 'immulating' is...
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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2015, 12:17:50 AM »
Flogging might be a step too far, but I'm not sure how hairshirts or putting rocks in your shows (the cilice might be a bit too far as well) are different from extreme fasting or standing at vigil all night or the old Irish practice of praying with your hands stretched out in the form of a cross. It's about experiencing some discomfort for the sake of your soul.
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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #41 on: April 05, 2015, 12:18:30 AM »
WGW,

My friend Colin who works in advertising, and is non Orthodox but nominally Christian and profoundly wise and loving, with a large family, believes all forms of spanking are addictive and psychologically unhealthy.  He's managed to raise 6 children without hitting them, despite being married to a Ghanaian (he himself is British of Guyanan extraction) who views such spanking as normal and would have done it otherwise.
Your friend has got the right idea.

I know what you mean about disliking the idea of hairshirts. I don't know that hairshirts actually damage the body like physical blows do, and so it seems a bit less troubling. But I think the idea of self-inflicting pain for some kind of spiritual glorification, which would include the use of hairshirts, is mentally ill. I mean, imagine jumping in super hot water while saying prayers or forcing down over ripe Chinese food or insufficiently cooked chitterlings in a ritual context. It's psychologically ill.

As for your discussion on kneeling, I can understand it as simply a deepened, more extended continuation of normal prayer. ie. Your praying involves getting on the knees, which is normal, and since your are not caring so much about bodily comfort, you pray on the knees for a long time. This is much different than intentionally trying to inflict pain as a goal.

Apparently there are people who were penally forced to kneel on peas in Roman Catholic settings. This is more abuse that should not be used as some kind of ritual mortification of flesh. We are talking practices used in S/M. See the link for the photo below if you need convincing. They are talking about this pea kneeling photo on this Polish site, so I think it is a Roman Catholic thing:
http://www.wiocha.pl/793325,Karac-dziecko-w-ten-sposob
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 12:41:33 AM by rakovsky »
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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #42 on: April 05, 2015, 12:21:14 AM »
Yay, tylophobia pics!
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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #43 on: April 05, 2015, 12:23:29 AM »
I have no idea what 'immulating' is...

Sounds like immolating. Self-immolation has been practiced by some radical Buddhist ascetics (for example, to protest Ngo Dinh Diem's regime). Also, entire villages of Old Believers and other Russian sects were known to "baptize themselves by fire", too, a form of mass suicide that they viewed as martyrdom.

There were a few 17th-century French Catholics who set themselves on fire in order to emulate Christ's suffering; they put out the fire before they died, but suffered third degree burns. I find all of these things deeply disturbing.
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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #44 on: April 05, 2015, 12:29:58 AM »
WGW,

My friend Colin who works in advertising, and is non Orthodox but nominally Christian and profoundly wise and loving, with a large family, believes all forms of spanking are addictive and psychologically unhealthy.  He's managed to raise 6 children without hitting them, despite being married to a Ghanaian (he himself is British of Guyanan extraction) who views such spanking as normal and would have done it otherwise.
Your friend has got the right idea.

I know what you mean about disliking the idea of hairshirts. I don't know that hairshirts actually damage the body like physical blows do, and so it seems a bit less troubling. But I think the idea of self-inflicting pain for some kind of spiritual glorification, which would include the use of hairshirts, is mentally ill. I mean, imagine jumping in super hot water while saying prayers or forcing down over ripe Chinese food or insufficiently cooked chitterlings in a ritual context. It's psychologically ill.

As for your discussion on kneeling, I can understand it as simply a deepened, more extended continuation of normal prayer. ie. Your praying involves getting on the knees, which is normal, and since your are not caring so much about bodily comfort, you pray on the knees for a long time. This is much different than intentionally trying to inflict pain as a goal.

Apparently there are people who were penally forced to kneel on peas in Roman Catholic settings. This is more abuse that should not be used as some kind of ritual mortification of flesh:
We are talking practices used in S/M.

They are talking about that photo too on this Polish site, so I think it may be a Roman Catholic

You have a point but you should have linked that image which is seriously seriously disgusting.  I a, really nauseated right now.  Call me squeamish but I really wish you had not posted that image, I am quite ready to lose my dinner.  Please see if you can remove it.  But yes kneeling on pews or gravel, these are debased practices.  But we don't need graphics any more than need graphics of self-flagellation in progress surely.   Really rakovsky I firmly agree with you entirely but I can't participate in this thread any more as that image is one of the worst above seen on the Internet.  I was once shown an image on 4chan at a Limix User Group,that was worse.   Images  like that are actively spiritually damaging.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 12:31:59 AM by wgw »
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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #45 on: April 05, 2015, 12:40:49 AM »
You have a point but you should have linked that image which is seriously seriously disgusting.  I a, really nauseated right now.  Call me squeamish but I really wish you had not posted that image, I am quite ready to lose my dinner.  Please see if you can remove it.  But yes kneeling on pews or gravel, these are debased practices.  But we don't need graphics any more than need graphics of self-flagellation in progress surely.   Really rakovsky I firmly agree with you entirely but I can't participate in this thread any more as that image is one of the worst above seen on the Internet.  I was once shown an image on 4chan at a Limix User Group,that was worse.   Images  like that are actively spiritually damaging.
OK, I sympathize and removed it. I think that the actual self-flogging is even more spiritually damaging. The person is ruining themselves, breaking down their happiness themselves into pain and suffering, rather than being brave and going into physical or spiritual battle. And yet there were even one or two posters here who think that such self-inflicted illness is acceptable?
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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #46 on: April 05, 2015, 12:43:01 AM »
WGW,

My friend Colin who works in advertising, and is non Orthodox but nominally Christian and profoundly wise and loving, with a large family, believes all forms of spanking are addictive and psychologically unhealthy.  He's managed to raise 6 children without hitting them, despite being married to a Ghanaian (he himself is British of Guyanan extraction) who views such spanking as normal and would have done it otherwise.
Your friend has got the right idea.

I know what you mean about disliking the idea of hairshirts. I don't know that hairshirts actually damage the body like physical blows do, and so it seems a bit less troubling. But I think the idea of self-inflicting pain for some kind of spiritual glorification, which would include the use of hairshirts, is mentally ill. I mean, imagine jumping in super hot water while saying prayers or forcing down over ripe Chinese food or insufficiently cooked chitterlings in a ritual context. It's psychologically ill.

As for your discussion on kneeling, I can understand it as simply a deepened, more extended continuation of normal prayer. ie. Your praying involves getting on the knees, which is normal, and since your are not caring so much about bodily comfort, you pray on the knees for a long time. This is much different than intentionally trying to inflict pain as a goal.

Apparently there are people who were penally forced to kneel on peas in Roman Catholic settings. This is more abuse that should not be used as some kind of ritual mortification of flesh:
Image removed
We are talking practices used in S/M.

They are talking about that photo too on this Polish site, so I think it may be a Roman Catholic thing:
http://www.wiocha.pl/793325,Karac-dziecko-w-ten-sposob

There are certain faulty theologies common in the West that seem to be used often to justify child abuse, wife abuse or overly-authoritarian family/congregation structures. Much has been written on The Wartburg Watch blog about stuff like this in certain fundamental and evangelical communities. (The Wartburg Watch is run by two bloggers who are Protestant, but not fanatically so, and they have called out fundamentalists like Pulpit & Pen who misrepresent Catholics and Orthodox. The primary focus of the blog is as a sort of muckraking watchdog, exposing abusive practices--and there are a lot of them--within conservative evangelicalism and fundamentalism). Many of these practices originated as an over-reaction against liberation theology, feminism and liberalism.

Some Baptists have started teaching Eternal Subordination of the Son (ESS), a doctrine that appears to lapse into Semi-Arianism, and this teaching is often used to justify the idea of the husband as the absolute ruler of his household (rather than as first among equals or anything similar) as well as to use as a cudgel against anything remotely resembling egalitarianism (whether in the family, society, the local church, etc.) Others have lapsed into semi-Mormonism, claiming that "gender roles" (code for women's subordination to men) will last into the next life.

When combined with PSA, what would this say about God the Father (and, by extension, human fathers, since ESS types are staunch social-Trinitarians who believe that human relationships are in the image of and should be modeled after the Trinity)? It's no wonder that child and spousal abuse, combined with lack of accountability for said actions, are so common among those communities. Many of these churches also have huge problems with child-molesting pastors (if anything it's more common among them than among the Catholics). The pastor, in their view, has absolute authority over his local congregation and is accountable to no one, and his serfs parishioners are obligated to obey him unconditionally even if he abuses their trust or breaks the law. Fathers have similar absolutist authority over their households. It's a disaster waiting to happen, and in some places it has already happened (Michael and Debi Pearl's guide to disciplining beating children has led to at least one death already). In the past, similar logic was used to justify Southern chattel slavery and the horrors that came with it on theological grounds. Even today, there are some people in fundagelical circles like Doug Wilson who engage in revisionist historiography that attempts to whitewash (so to speak) the history of the South.

Again, I think this stuff, like most of the distortions we associate with the "Religious Right", may have originated as an overreaction against Moltmann and liberation theologians (who overemphasized the equality of the Trinity, in semi-Sabellian fashion, which led to the view that Christians should support a quasi-Marxist egalitarian society). The truth lies in the middle.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 01:01:32 AM by Minnesotan »
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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #47 on: April 05, 2015, 12:57:39 AM »
My friend Colin who works in advertising, and is non Orthodox but nominally Christian and profoundly wise and loving, with a large family, believes all forms of spanking are addictive and psychologically unhealthy.  He's managed to raise 6 children without hitting them, despite being married to a Ghanaian (he himself is British of Guyanan extraction) who views such spanking as normal and would have done it otherwise.

Interesting, I know that Guyana is a very diverse place because laborers were brought there from many different places in the world during the colonial period. As a result there are many Hindus and Muslims there from places like India and Pakistan, and it along with Suriname are the most Hindu (and Islamic) societies in the New World.

I had a classmate who was from Guyana, her name was Ashreen. I never found out what her religious background was (she didn't wear a hijab, and was rather shy and quiet. I also had a bit of a crush on her and I was 18 at the time, so I was too shy to talk to her. Then I found out she was around 20 years older than I thought she was. I'm not good with guessing ages).

I've also known Ghanaians, too. We have some in the area.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 12:58:35 AM by Minnesotan »
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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #48 on: April 05, 2015, 04:54:33 AM »
A lot of the early Syrian monks did similar things. It never saw wide acceptance as it did in Medieval Western Europe. though. St. Benedict is probably the biggest exception.

I've heard that Elder Ephraim's monasteries in the US advise light flogging that leaves no marks. I don't know how accurate that is, though.

I imagine the reason Elder Ephraim or the brothers might say things like that is Elder Joseph advised it in his letters and to his followers.


Generally, the argument against self-mortification is you are damaging, or even wounding, the image and likeness of God. How dare you!
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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #49 on: April 05, 2015, 04:58:23 AM »
Anyway, lets compare it to pinching yourself.

If images are not leaving your mind, and prayer is not working, is it wrong to pinch yourself? to cause pain, to try to stop it

as far as I can tell, this is nothing bad or wrong
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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #50 on: April 05, 2015, 05:02:47 AM »
Anyway, lets compare it to pinching yourself.

If images are not leaving your mind, and prayer is not working, is it wrong to pinch yourself? to cause pain, to try to stop it

as far as I can tell, this is nothing bad or wrong

Yeah, smacking yourself like Elder Joseph did and advised as a spiritual father is ok.  The problem is when people do it without any kind of guidance or real edifying purpose.  Then it becomes a purely physical thing not worth justifying.
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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #51 on: April 05, 2015, 06:52:08 AM »
Have we already forgotten the lesson of Dostoevsky's flogged horse...?  8)

One of the most powerful excerpts in all of literature. Of course, I think the horse is an icon of Christ in this instance. And this seems to invoke Isaiah 53:5 "But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed."

As for the OP, there is this verse from St. Paul: "I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize." [I Cor. 9:27 NIV] I think the common interpretation of this verse is that it refers to spiritual disciplines like fasting. But perhaps St. Paul did practice self-flagellation from time to time if certain temptations arose.

As much as I hate to invoke the "consult your spiritual father" card, I think that in regards to this question one should most definitely receive instruction and guidance from one's priest before engaging in such a practice. Although one must also be cautious about relinquishing one's free will in favor of unquestioning obedience to the advice of any man.


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Offline wainscottbl

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #52 on: April 05, 2015, 10:59:44 AM »
Have we already forgotten the lesson of Dostoevsky's flogged horse...?  8)

One of the most powerful excerpts in all of literature. Of course, I think the horse is an icon of Christ in this instance. And this seems to invoke Isaiah 53:5 "But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed."

As for the OP, there is this verse from St. Paul: "I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize." [I Cor. 9:27 NIV] I think the common interpretation of this verse is that it refers to spiritual disciplines like fasting. But perhaps St. Paul did practice self-flagellation from time to time if certain temptations arose.

As much as I hate to invoke the "consult your spiritual father" card, I think that in regards to this question one should most definitely receive instruction and guidance from one's priest before engaging in such a practice. Although one must also be cautious about relinquishing one's free will in favor of unquestioning obedience to the advice of any man.


Selam

Yes, I think this is well said. It is a more Western practice due to their more legal view of things with Purgatory and focus on the Passion over the Resurrection, but it has merit I think. But it can become pride. I had a friend whose sexual pleasures/temptations involved bondage, etc, and he was doing flogging for a while. I thought to myself that for someone with those sexual views, it was harmful rather than helpful. Also he was depressed, had somewhat low self-esteem, and anger issues. I think here it is to be avoided. Which is why a spiritual father is best sought. Be he was Catholic and generally in Catholicism you do not have a spiritual father in the same way you do in Orthodoxy. You might ask a couple questions in confession, but your prayer life you are on your own for the most part. So you flog yourself at you own discretion. However, I am not sure it is completely wrong. This seems to be a bit of a modern view. Of course, I agree it must be done very carefully. Besides, why scar your body? You should not overdo it. I know this sounds superficial. But think about your future/present sexual partner. Do you think they want so see your naked body with a bunch of scars? For most it would be an unpleasant view of the partner's body. Every time you did the marriage act they would have to see that. Not the most important issue in this, but a small one. The main issue is spiritual pride and as warped view of spirituality 
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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #53 on: April 05, 2015, 01:09:41 PM »
We are talking practices used in S/M.

Besides rakovsky, do we have any other experts on "alternative sexualities" on OCNet? 
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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #54 on: April 05, 2015, 01:19:45 PM »
This thread is so unfortunate.

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #55 on: April 05, 2015, 01:32:14 PM »
We are talking practices used in S/M.

Besides rakovsky, do we have any other experts on "alternative sexualities" on OCNet?

Yes, but he is not discussing such things on this site anymore  :police:
"The bed is too short to stretch out on, the blanket too narrow to wrap around you." (Isa. 28:20)

"For because they wronged the simple, they shall be slain; and an inquisition shall ruin the ungodly." (Prov. 1:32 LXX)

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #56 on: April 05, 2015, 02:13:33 PM »
We are talking practices used in S/M.

Besides rakovsky, do we have any other experts on "alternative sexualities" on OCNet?

Yes, but he is not discussing such things on this site anymore  :police:

Tell him to email or PM me.  I have a lot of questions...
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #57 on: April 05, 2015, 02:23:18 PM »
We are talking practices used in S/M.

Besides rakovsky, do we have any other experts on "alternative sexualities" on OCNet?

Yes, but he is not discussing such things on this site anymore  :police:

Tell him to email or PM me.  I have a lot of questions...

I'm not sure how well I, er, that is to say, he could explain such things to those not at least sympathetic to them. You can PM me if you want though. .... I mean, PM me so I can put you in contact with the other person, who is not me.
"The bed is too short to stretch out on, the blanket too narrow to wrap around you." (Isa. 28:20)

"For because they wronged the simple, they shall be slain; and an inquisition shall ruin the ungodly." (Prov. 1:32 LXX)

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #58 on: April 05, 2015, 07:24:28 PM »
We are talking practices used in S/M.

Besides rakovsky, do we have any other experts on "alternative sexualities" on OCNet?

Yes, but he is not discussing such things on this site anymore  :police:

Tell him to email or PM me.  I have a lot of questions...

I'm not sure how well I, er, that is to say, he could explain such things to those not at least sympathetic to them. You can PM me if you want though. .... I mean, PM me so I can put you in contact with the other person, who is not me.

;)
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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline JoeS2

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #59 on: April 05, 2015, 09:49:02 PM »
God is not impressed at how many lashes one gives oneself by flogging.   The Body is the temple of the Holy Spirit , why try to ruin it with stripes?

Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #60 on: April 06, 2015, 07:07:29 PM »
Yay, tylophobia pics!

I googled the word tylophobia and the only results I got defined it as the fear of old age, so at first I didn't know what you meant.

Eventually I figured out that you were probably referring to trypophobia, which is the fear of objects with irregular patterns of holes. There are lots of pictures like that on the internet, and most of them seem to be photoshopped, as part of a trollish attempt to deliberately gross people out.
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #61 on: April 06, 2015, 07:14:40 PM »
Yay, tylophobia pics!

I googled the word tylophobia and the only results I got defined it as the fear of old age, so at first I didn't know what you meant.

Eventually I figured out that you were probably referring to trypophobia, which is the fear of objects with irregular patterns of holes. There are lots of pictures like that on the internet, and most of them seem to be photoshopped, as part of a trollish attempt to deliberately gross people out.

I find them fascinating...
"The bed is too short to stretch out on, the blanket too narrow to wrap around you." (Isa. 28:20)

"For because they wronged the simple, they shall be slain; and an inquisition shall ruin the ungodly." (Prov. 1:32 LXX)

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #62 on: April 06, 2015, 07:36:50 PM »
Yay, tylophobia pics!

I googled the word tylophobia and the only results I got defined it as the fear of old age, so at first I didn't know what you meant.

Eventually I figured out that you were probably referring to trypophobia, which is the fear of objects with irregular patterns of holes. There are lots of pictures like that on the internet, and most of them seem to be photoshopped, as part of a trollish attempt to deliberately gross people out.

I find them fascinating...

Me too. *Stares off into the distance* wgw, don't click
 
Thanks for the spelling correction, Minnesotan.

Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

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Offline brittrossiter

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #63 on: April 06, 2015, 11:04:40 PM »
For those who have been wondering about actual references to flogging found in the writings of the eastern fathers, one need look no further than The Ladder--Step Five, to be specific, where St. John is discussing the extreme asceticism that he saw among the inhabitants of The Prison:

Quote
And that is what these blessed ones who had been called to account [i.e., the inhabitants of The Prison] were actually doing. From the number of their prostrations, their knees seemed to have become wooden, their eyes dim and sunk deep within their sockets. They had no hair. Their cheeks were bruised and burnt by the scalding of hot tears. Their faces were pale and wasted. They were quite indistinguishable from corpses. Their breasts were livid from blows; and from their frequent beating of the chest, they spat blood. Where was to be found in this place any rest on beds, or clean or starched clothes? They were all torn, dirty, and covered with lice. In comparison with them, what are the sufferings of the possessed, or of those weeping for the dead, or of those living in exile, or of those condemned for murder? Their involuntary torture and punishment is really nothing in comparison with this voluntary suffering. I ask you, brothers, not to regard all this as a made-up story.

Jason

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #64 on: April 06, 2015, 11:22:29 PM »
For those who have been wondering about actual references to flogging found in the writings of the eastern fathers, one need look no further than The Ladder--Step Five, to be specific, where St. John is discussing the extreme asceticism that he saw among the inhabitants of The Prison:

Quote
And that is what these blessed ones who had been called to account [i.e., the inhabitants of The Prison] were actually doing. From the number of their prostrations, their knees seemed to have become wooden, their eyes dim and sunk deep within their sockets. They had no hair. Their cheeks were bruised and burnt by the scalding of hot tears. Their faces were pale and wasted. They were quite indistinguishable from corpses. Their breasts were livid from blows; and from their frequent beating of the chest, they spat blood. Where was to be found in this place any rest on beds, or clean or starched clothes? They were all torn, dirty, and covered with lice. In comparison with them, what are the sufferings of the possessed, or of those weeping for the dead, or of those living in exile, or of those condemned for murder? Their involuntary torture and punishment is really nothing in comparison with this voluntary suffering. I ask you, brothers, not to regard all this as a made-up story.

Jason

I think they were beating their chests in the manner of the Publican. They just did so frequently that it bruised them. Some of it must have been from being tortured and imprisoned as well.
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

Rome doesn't care. Rome is actually very cool guy.

Offline JoeS2

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #65 on: April 07, 2015, 01:06:24 AM »
For those who have been wondering about actual references to flogging found in the writings of the eastern fathers, one need look no further than The Ladder--Step Five, to be specific, where St. John is discussing the extreme asceticism that he saw among the inhabitants of The Prison:

Quote
And that is what these blessed ones who had been called to account [i.e., the inhabitants of The Prison] were actually doing. From the number of their prostrations, their knees seemed to have become wooden, their eyes dim and sunk deep within their sockets. They had no hair. Their cheeks were bruised and burnt by the scalding of hot tears. Their faces were pale and wasted. They were quite indistinguishable from corpses. Their breasts were livid from blows; and from their frequent beating of the chest, they spat blood. Where was to be found in this place any rest on beds, or clean or starched clothes? They were all torn, dirty, and covered with lice. In comparison with them, what are the sufferings of the possessed, or of those weeping for the dead, or of those living in exile, or of those condemned for murder? Their involuntary torture and punishment is really nothing in comparison with this voluntary suffering. I ask you, brothers, not to regard all this as a made-up story.

Jason

I think they were beating their chests in the manner of the Publican. They just did so frequently that it bruised them. Some of it must have been from being tortured and imprisoned as well.

Please someone tell me: Is this the behavior God wants us to emulate? Why is this necessary? Will flogging and punishment get me into heaven?  This topic is driving me crazy....

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #66 on: April 07, 2015, 01:18:49 AM »
Well your posts are driving me crazy, Mr. Man. 8) Is fasting necessary? Is the Jesus prayer necessary? Is becoming a monk necessary? There are lots of things that people do which is a helpful part of their spiritual life, but which would not exclude them from redemption if it was absent. While many practices are good for just about everyone, nonetheless there are also plenty of things that are good for one person and not another, or good for a very small number of people and harmful for the great majority. The decisive factor is whether it is helpful or not, and not whether it is 'necessary' as if the spiritual life was some pre-scheduled program, with everyone doing the same things at the appointed times. This is not to say the practice is good, or good to be debated, only that I don't think you can fairly judge it's use or merits in the way you are doing.
"The bed is too short to stretch out on, the blanket too narrow to wrap around you." (Isa. 28:20)

"For because they wronged the simple, they shall be slain; and an inquisition shall ruin the ungodly." (Prov. 1:32 LXX)

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #67 on: April 07, 2015, 01:19:49 AM »
Please someone tell me: Is this the behavior God wants us to emulate? Why is this necessary? Will flogging and punishment get me into heaven?  This topic is driving me crazy....

No, don't do it.

From Wikipedia:
Quote
Khlysts or Khlysty (Хлысты in Russian [from the word whips]) was an underground sect from late 17th to early 20th century that split off the Russian Orthodox Church



'Khlyst', the name commonly applied to them, is a distortion of the name they used; the original name was the invented word Христововеры (Khristovovery, "Christ-believers") or Христы (Khristy); their critics corrupted the name, mixing it with the word хлыст (khlyst), meaning "a whip". It is also possible that the word 'Khlysty' is related to the Greek word 'χιλιασταί' (=millennialists, chiliasts; pronounced 'khiliasté'), or with "klyster", meaning "one that purges"

Curiously enough, they allowed their members to attend Orthodox churches. The central idea of Khlystys' ideology was to practice asceticism. Khlysty practiced the attainment of divine grace for sin in ecstatic rituals (called радéния, or radeniya) that were rumored to sometimes turn into sexual orgies.[1] Flagellation was also rumored, possibly due to the similarity of their name to the word for "whip".

Here you can find some elements- self flagellation that has a likely sexual element. This secret sexual, masochistic element is often found among people who do this. They have emotional humiliation and masochism and take it out on their body, and this releases some hormones that give them different ecstatic stimulation (as part of the Masochism). It's basically one of the practices of the sects and is not the Orthodox teaching, although asceticism (eg. fasting) without self-beatings can be.
The ocean, impassable by men, and the world beyond it are directed by the same ordinances of the Master. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #68 on: April 07, 2015, 01:22:42 AM »
Please read more monastic literature and less googlewebs.
"The bed is too short to stretch out on, the blanket too narrow to wrap around you." (Isa. 28:20)

"For because they wronged the simple, they shall be slain; and an inquisition shall ruin the ungodly." (Prov. 1:32 LXX)

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #69 on: April 07, 2015, 01:24:28 AM »


The ocean, impassable by men, and the world beyond it are directed by the same ordinances of the Master. ~ I Clement 20

Offline JoeS2

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #70 on: April 07, 2015, 10:05:55 AM »
Please someone tell me: Is this the behavior God wants us to emulate? Why is this necessary? Will flogging and punishment get me into heaven?  This topic is driving me crazy....

No, don't do it.

From Wikipedia:
Quote
Khlysts or Khlysty (Хлысты in Russian [from the word whips]) was an underground sect from late 17th to early 20th century that split off the Russian Orthodox Church



'Khlyst', the name commonly applied to them, is a distortion of the name they used; the original name was the invented word Христововеры (Khristovovery, "Christ-believers") or Христы (Khristy); their critics corrupted the name, mixing it with the word хлыст (khlyst), meaning "a whip". It is also possible that the word 'Khlysty' is related to the Greek word 'χιλιασταί' (=millennialists, chiliasts; pronounced 'khiliasté'), or with "klyster", meaning "one that purges"

Curiously enough, they allowed their members to attend Orthodox churches. The central idea of Khlystys' ideology was to practice asceticism. Khlysty practiced the attainment of divine grace for sin in ecstatic rituals (called радéния, or radeniya) that were rumored to sometimes turn into sexual orgies.[1] Flagellation was also rumored, possibly due to the similarity of their name to the word for "whip".

Here you can find some elements- self flagellation that has a likely sexual element. This secret sexual, masochistic element is often found among people who do this. They have emotional humiliation and masochism and take it out on their body, and this releases some hormones that give them different ecstatic stimulation (as part of the Masochism). It's basically one of the practices of the sects and is not the Orthodox teaching, although asceticism (eg. fasting) without self-beatings can be.

Thank you, this makes sense. 

Offline wainscottbl

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #71 on: April 07, 2015, 12:11:58 PM »
I am guessing these Khlysts were heretics. They "allowed" their members to attend Orthodox liturgies. The little sects in the Russian Church are interesting. The one of the painter in "Crime and Punishment" whose sect believed it was Christian to take the fall for other people's crimes, thus confessing to the murder.
The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet.
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #72 on: April 07, 2015, 02:28:33 PM »
I am guessing these Khlysts were heretics. They "allowed" their members to attend Orthodox liturgies. The little sects in the Russian Church are interesting. The one of the painter in "Crime and Punishment" whose sect believed it was Christian to take the fall for other people's crimes, thus confessing to the murder.

Reminds me of St. Maria Skobtsova (who took the place of a Jewish woman in the gas chamber during the Holocaust).
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #73 on: April 07, 2015, 02:28:54 PM »
Please someone tell me: Is this the behavior God wants us to emulate? Why is this necessary? Will flogging and punishment get me into heaven?  This topic is driving me crazy....

No, don't do it.

From Wikipedia:
Quote
Khlysts or Khlysty (Хлысты in Russian [from the word whips]) was an underground sect from late 17th to early 20th century that split off the Russian Orthodox Church



'Khlyst', the name commonly applied to them, is a distortion of the name they used; the original name was the invented word Христововеры (Khristovovery, "Christ-believers") or Христы (Khristy); their critics corrupted the name, mixing it with the word хлыст (khlyst), meaning "a whip". It is also possible that the word 'Khlysty' is related to the Greek word 'χιλιασταί' (=millennialists, chiliasts; pronounced 'khiliasté'), or with "klyster", meaning "one that purges"

Curiously enough, they allowed their members to attend Orthodox churches. The central idea of Khlystys' ideology was to practice asceticism. Khlysty practiced the attainment of divine grace for sin in ecstatic rituals (called радéния, or radeniya) that were rumored to sometimes turn into sexual orgies.[1] Flagellation was also rumored, possibly due to the similarity of their name to the word for "whip".

Here you can find some elements- self flagellation that has a likely sexual element. This secret sexual, masochistic element is often found among people who do this. They have emotional humiliation and masochism and take it out on their body, and this releases some hormones that give them different ecstatic stimulation (as part of the Masochism). It's basically one of the practices of the sects and is not the Orthodox teaching, although asceticism (eg. fasting) without self-beatings can be.

Wasn't Rasputin accused of having these sorts of tendencies? There was even a Choose Your Own Adventure book where he's portrayed as a rather sinister figure with these kinds of "issues" (and he also comes back from the dead as the eponymous ghost):



I used to read CYOA books a lot when I was a kid, and I have a huge collection. This particular book was the first place I learned what a starets was.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 02:31:39 PM by Minnesotan »
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #74 on: April 07, 2015, 02:35:38 PM »
The guy inside the crystal ball is dreamy.
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline wainscottbl

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #75 on: April 07, 2015, 03:02:25 PM »
The guy inside the crystal ball is dreamy.

How about him?

The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet.
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Offline Rhinosaur

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #76 on: April 07, 2015, 06:12:41 PM »
Please someone tell me: Is this the behavior God wants us to emulate? Why is this necessary? Will flogging and punishment get me into heaven?  This topic is driving me crazy....

No, don't do it.

From Wikipedia:
Quote
Khlysts or Khlysty (Хлысты in Russian [from the word whips]) was an underground sect from late 17th to early 20th century that split off the Russian Orthodox Church



'Khlyst', the name commonly applied to them, is a distortion of the name they used; the original name was the invented word Христововеры (Khristovovery, "Christ-believers") or Христы (Khristy); their critics corrupted the name, mixing it with the word хлыст (khlyst), meaning "a whip". It is also possible that the word 'Khlysty' is related to the Greek word 'χιλιασταί' (=millennialists, chiliasts; pronounced 'khiliasté'), or with "klyster", meaning "one that purges"

Curiously enough, they allowed their members to attend Orthodox churches. The central idea of Khlystys' ideology was to practice asceticism. Khlysty practiced the attainment of divine grace for sin in ecstatic rituals (called радéния, or radeniya) that were rumored to sometimes turn into sexual orgies.[1] Flagellation was also rumored, possibly due to the similarity of their name to the word for "whip".

Here you can find some elements- self flagellation that has a likely sexual element. This secret sexual, masochistic element is often found among people who do this. They have emotional humiliation and masochism and take it out on their body, and this releases some hormones that give them different ecstatic stimulation (as part of the Masochism). It's basically one of the practices of the sects and is not the Orthodox teaching, although asceticism (eg. fasting) without self-beatings can be.

Wasn't Rasputin accused of having these sorts of tendencies? There was even a Choose Your Own Adventure book where he's portrayed as a rather sinister figure with these kinds of "issues" (and he also comes back from the dead as the eponymous ghost):



I used to read CYOA books a lot when I was a kid, and I have a huge collection. This particular book was the first place I learned what a starets was.

The band Mastodon did an entire album about a paraplegic whose soul time travels and is placed inside the body of Rasputin by Russian cultists:


Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #77 on: April 07, 2015, 08:01:11 PM »
This thread is so weird.
God bless!

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #78 on: April 07, 2015, 08:03:14 PM »
This thread is so weird.

Consider it an additional act of self-mortification in preparation for this Sunday.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #79 on: April 07, 2015, 08:18:00 PM »
This thread is so weird.

Consider it an additional act of self-mortification in preparation for this Sunday.
:laugh:
God bless!

Offline biro

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #80 on: April 07, 2015, 08:32:54 PM »
And I thought pushups were bad.
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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #81 on: April 07, 2015, 08:54:11 PM »
And I thought pushups were bad.

They are. I'd rather flog myself. Seriously. I've flogged myself (for spiritual reasons). It hurts, but it's a quick pain. Pushups......gee....
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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #82 on: April 07, 2015, 08:58:47 PM »
Finally, an explanation for so many vehemently opposing our lord and savior doing bench presses!
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Offline wainscottbl

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #83 on: April 07, 2015, 09:01:46 PM »
Finally, an explanation for so many vehemently opposing our lord and savior doing bench presses!

"Simon Peter, would you spot me?"
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 09:02:01 PM by wainscottbl »
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #84 on: April 07, 2015, 09:55:50 PM »
This thread is so weird.

You don't know the half of it, Trisagion.

Seriously. I've flogged myself (for spiritual reasons). It hurts, but it's a quick pain. Pushups......gee....

The ocean, impassable by men, and the world beyond it are directed by the same ordinances of the Master. ~ I Clement 20

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #85 on: April 07, 2015, 10:07:17 PM »
This thread is so weird.

You don't know the half of it, Trisagion.

Seriously. I've flogged myself (for spiritual reasons). It hurts, but it's a quick pain. Pushups......gee....
lol, I wrote several responses to that, but none of them were appropriate, so I erased them.  :o
God bless!

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #86 on: April 07, 2015, 10:19:17 PM »
Stigmata and self inflicted wounds like flagellation aren't part of Orthodox teaching.

Quote
Professor Sergio Luzzatto claims the 'stigmata' were not a miracle but were self-inflicted wounds using carbolic acid.

He said he has found documents in libraries at the Vatican which apparently included a letter from an Italian pharmacist who claimed to have delivered the acid to the former monk.


Padre Pio's wounds continued to bleed till the end of his life, when they disappeared.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2062103/Padre-Pio-used-carbolic-acid-make-stigmata.html#ixzz3WgFHETlG
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

The ocean, impassable by men, and the world beyond it are directed by the same ordinances of the Master. ~ I Clement 20

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #87 on: April 07, 2015, 10:21:58 PM »

lol, I wrote several responses to that, but none of them were appropriate, so I erased them.  :o
I know what you mean.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 10:26:29 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #88 on: April 07, 2015, 10:31:24 PM »
Stigmata and self inflicted wounds like flagellation aren't part of Orthodox teaching.

Quote
Professor Sergio Luzzatto claims the 'stigmata' were not a miracle but were self-inflicted wounds using carbolic acid.

He said he has found documents in libraries at the Vatican which apparently included a letter from an Italian pharmacist who claimed to have delivered the acid to the former monk.


Padre Pio's wounds continued to bleed till the end of his life, when they disappeared.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2062103/Padre-Pio-used-carbolic-acid-make-stigmata.html#ixzz3WgFHETlG
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


Reminds me of John Howard Griffin, who was briefly a Carmelite (and a friend of Thomas Merton). Later, he took huge quantities of methoxsalen and spent long hours under a UV lamp to turn his skin black. He did this not as an ascetic practice, but because he wanted to pass as a black man (so he could travel to the South and write a book about his experiences; that book was called Black Like Me).

Amazingly, Griffin never got skin cancer.
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #89 on: April 08, 2015, 03:12:25 AM »
I am glad Mor moved this. Back to the issue perhaps, I have come to the conclusion that it is not "wrong" to flog yourself in moderation, such as when being tempted to sin. But it should not leave permanent marks. Of course you can disagree with me, but the benefit here seems to be that the pain helps deter the desire for pleasure. Pain builds character. But this is just my poor opinion. I think priest will vary in their viewpoint of this.
The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet.
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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #90 on: April 08, 2015, 04:09:20 AM »
Stigmata and self inflicted wounds like flagellation aren't part of Orthodox teaching.

Quote
Professor Sergio Luzzatto claims the 'stigmata' were not a miracle but were self-inflicted wounds using carbolic acid.

He said he has found documents in libraries at the Vatican which apparently included a letter from an Italian pharmacist who claimed to have delivered the acid to the former monk.


Padre Pio's wounds continued to bleed till the end of his life, when they disappeared.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2062103/Padre-Pio-used-carbolic-acid-make-stigmata.html#ixzz3WgFHETlG
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


Because we all know what an impartial and respected source is the Daily Mail...
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

Rome doesn't care. Rome is actually very cool guy.

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #91 on: April 08, 2015, 04:10:59 AM »
Because we all know what an impartial and respected source is the Daily Mail...

I wish this forum had a "like" option.
The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #92 on: April 08, 2015, 11:59:20 AM »
Because we all know what an impartial and respected source is the Daily Mail...

I wish this forum had a "like" option.
You can just type +1 after a post.


Quote
Certainly there have been fake stigmatics. In a rare moment of skepticism, Michael Freze, author of They Bore the Wounds of Christ: The Mystery of the Sacred Stigmata, admits that "there have been cases where some overly fanatic souls have so desired the Sacred Stigmata that they have intentionally wounded themselves with knives, picks, etc., in order to produce false impressions to others that they were extraordinary saints!" 54 Despite this all-too-brief acknowledgment of deliberately faked stigmata— as if they were uncommon— Freze does admit there are other types of "false Stigmata" which he attributes to such "possible causes" as "diabolical origins; mental disease or sickness; hysteria; self-hypnotic suggestion; and nervous conditions that can cause the skin to redden, break and even bleed." 55 By contrast, in Comparative Miracles the Rev. Smith freely admits that since St. Francis, a great many impostors have attempted to simulate true stigmata. 56

Ian Wilson catalogs several cases of such fakery.For example, Magdalena de la Cruz ( 1487-1560) underwent ecstasies, abstained from food, performed mortifications (self-punishment), and finally exhibited the stigmata—practices that impressed the Spanish nobility, including Queen Isabella herself, and led expectant mothers to seek Magdalena's blessing on their awaited infants' clothing and nursery furniture.Then, becoming seriously ill in 1543 and fearing she would die a sinner, Magdalena suddenly confessed, admitting that for many years she had been practicing deceptions. She was tried by the Inquisition and received a severe sentence. 57 Such a case should give the miraculists pause, since Magdalena's deception went undetected and, had she not confessed of her own volition, she might now be venerated as St. Magdalena—her "ecstasies" and other alleged experiences and manifestations being cited by the credulous as confirmation of her sanctity. (As it is, Freze consigns her fake stigmata to the "diabolical" category, explaining that "the devil" has produced stigmatic marks "many times in the course of Christian history." 58 )

Another fake stigmatic was Maria de la Visitacion (b. 1556) who exhibited a stock set of stigmata, including an inch-long wound in the side and crown-of-thorns puncture marks on the forehead.Maria was exposed by a sister nun who saw her painting a stigma onto her hand, but was defended by doctors in 1587. (Apparently her ploy—that her wounds were unbearably painful to the touch—restricted the examination to mere visual scrutiny.) Eventually Maria was investigated by the Inquisition, whose examiners scrubbed away the "wounds" to reveal unblemished flesh. 59 According to a contemporary report:

Apologetics Index
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/627-stigmata
The website gives other cases of self-inflicted stigmata in Roman Catholicism. This direct, intentional self infliction of bodily harm is not an Orthodox teaching.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2015, 12:05:36 PM by rakovsky »
The ocean, impassable by men, and the world beyond it are directed by the same ordinances of the Master. ~ I Clement 20

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #93 on: April 08, 2015, 12:04:23 PM »
it is not "wrong" to flog yourself in moderation, such as when being tempted to sin. But it should not leave permanent marks. Of course you can disagree with me, but the benefit here seems to be that the pain helps deter the desire for pleasure. Pain builds character.

It's definitely wrong. Christ's rule is to forgive everyone, forgive your brother's debts, and love your neighbor as yourself. Now if your brother or sister took something to you, would you want them beaten, or instead would you want them to restore your property and never rob you again? Christ commands the latter. And to love others like yourself, you have to be able to ask forgiveness from others you have wronged and reconcile rather than beating yourself. That is very long.

Pain from beatings actually causes masochistic pleasure, one which even the victims are not aware. And no, pain does NOT necessarily "build" character, it can break people down and destroy their character, especially when it is self-inflicted destruction. At least when it is inflicted by others, like a bully, you can persevere against adversity. In self-flagellation you are attacking yourself, not going against adversity. It's very very very wrong.
The ocean, impassable by men, and the world beyond it are directed by the same ordinances of the Master. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #94 on: April 08, 2015, 12:10:01 PM »
it is not "wrong" to flog yourself in moderation, such as when being tempted to sin. But it should not leave permanent marks. Of course you can disagree with me, but the benefit here seems to be that the pain helps deter the desire for pleasure. Pain builds character.

It's definitely wrong. Christ's rule is to forgive everyone, forgive your brother's debts, and love your neighbor as yourself. Now if your brother or sister took something to you, would you want them beaten, or instead would you want them to restore your property and never rob you again? Christ commands the latter. And to love others like yourself, you have to be able to ask forgiveness from others you have wronged and reconcile rather than beating yourself. That is very long.

Pain from beatings actually causes masochistic pleasure, one which even the victims are not aware. And no, pain does NOT necessarily "build" character, it can break people down and destroy their character, especially when it is self-inflicted destruction. At least when it is inflicted by others, like a bully, you can persevere against adversity. In self-flagellation you are attacking yourself, not going against adversity. It's very very very wrong.

Read the lives of the saints, especially St Symeon the Stylite.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #95 on: April 08, 2015, 12:14:55 PM »
Quote
St Symeon the Stylite
I found that he tied ropes on himself over-tight and it bled sometimes. I am not really a fan of drawing blood through self-mortification. In any case, St. Symeon didn't self-flagellate, with all the self-harm, drawing blood/bruising/redness, masochism involved.

John Sandipoulous wrote:
Quote
In the Catholic Church, self-flagellation is done to imitate the sufferings of Christ and has been highly criticized by Orthodox for whom asceticism is a means to calm the passions rather than to create pain. The creation of pain to imitate the sufferings of Christ is very dangerous for the spiritual life and can be a form of delusion (rather than a reason for sainthood as the Catholic Church claims). Archbishop Lazar Puhalo accurately analyzes this, saying: "During the Middle Ages, and particularly following the Black Plague, self-flagellation became popular among monks and nuns in Western Europe. Indeed, flagellation was the source of many of the 'spiritual ecstasies' claimed by Western saints. This is reasonable since flagellation is a form of masturbation. It very quickly becomes a form of sexual addiction. There are many contemporary accounts of the ecstasies aroused by flagellation, especially among nuns. Often, monks would flagellate themselves into a trance and, wounded and bleeding, begin to proclaim revelations they thought they had received from God." - J.S.]
http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/01/pope-john-paul-ii-was-self-flagellator.html
Exactly. This is a real chemical process, even if the person doesn't realize it. There are people who actually pay money to get beatings. it's mentally ill and very harmful spiritually and mentally.


Fr. George Morelli writes:
Quote
Jesus told us that he who has been forgiven much loves much (Luke 7:47). This is love in action, not self-flagellation, and can be the greatest and most joyful way to overcome sin. "O Happy Guilt" encompasses the true meaning of guilt that can be the source of our liberation, healing and deification.
www.antiochian.org/1141352351
« Last Edit: April 08, 2015, 12:20:18 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #96 on: April 08, 2015, 12:36:07 PM »
What I mean is that it's hard to justify blanket prohibitions like "never inflict physical harm on yourself" or "never fast so severely it damages your health", since you're always going to find examples of saints who did exactly that. I think what you can say is "don't do that kind of thing without a blessing", which most of the time you won't get, since for most people these actions are not spiritually beneficial.

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #97 on: April 08, 2015, 04:36:58 PM »
Because we all know what an impartial and respected source is the Daily Mail...

I wish this forum had a "like" option.
You can just type +1 after a post.


Quote
Certainly there have been fake stigmatics. In a rare moment of skepticism, Michael Freze, author of They Bore the Wounds of Christ: The Mystery of the Sacred Stigmata, admits that "there have been cases where some overly fanatic souls have so desired the Sacred Stigmata that they have intentionally wounded themselves with knives, picks, etc., in order to produce false impressions to others that they were extraordinary saints!" 54 Despite this all-too-brief acknowledgment of deliberately faked stigmata— as if they were uncommon— Freze does admit there are other types of "false Stigmata" which he attributes to such "possible causes" as "diabolical origins; mental disease or sickness; hysteria; self-hypnotic suggestion; and nervous conditions that can cause the skin to redden, break and even bleed." 55 By contrast, in Comparative Miracles the Rev. Smith freely admits that since St. Francis, a great many impostors have attempted to simulate true stigmata. 56

Ian Wilson catalogs several cases of such fakery.For example, Magdalena de la Cruz ( 1487-1560) underwent ecstasies, abstained from food, performed mortifications (self-punishment), and finally exhibited the stigmata—practices that impressed the Spanish nobility, including Queen Isabella herself, and led expectant mothers to seek Magdalena's blessing on their awaited infants' clothing and nursery furniture.Then, becoming seriously ill in 1543 and fearing she would die a sinner, Magdalena suddenly confessed, admitting that for many years she had been practicing deceptions. She was tried by the Inquisition and received a severe sentence. 57 Such a case should give the miraculists pause, since Magdalena's deception went undetected and, had she not confessed of her own volition, she might now be venerated as St. Magdalena—her "ecstasies" and other alleged experiences and manifestations being cited by the credulous as confirmation of her sanctity. (As it is, Freze consigns her fake stigmata to the "diabolical" category, explaining that "the devil" has produced stigmatic marks "many times in the course of Christian history." 58 )

Another fake stigmatic was Maria de la Visitacion (b. 1556) who exhibited a stock set of stigmata, including an inch-long wound in the side and crown-of-thorns puncture marks on the forehead.Maria was exposed by a sister nun who saw her painting a stigma onto her hand, but was defended by doctors in 1587. (Apparently her ploy—that her wounds were unbearably painful to the touch—restricted the examination to mere visual scrutiny.) Eventually Maria was investigated by the Inquisition, whose examiners scrubbed away the "wounds" to reveal unblemished flesh. 59 According to a contemporary report:

Apologetics Index
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/627-stigmata
The website gives other cases of self-inflicted stigmata in Roman Catholicism. This direct, intentional self infliction of bodily harm is not an Orthodox teaching.

Nobody disputes that there have been fake stigmatics. We just want you to find a better source than the Daily Fish Wrap if you want to throw Padre Pio under the bus.
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

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Offline wainscottbl

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #98 on: April 08, 2015, 08:44:10 PM »


It's definitely wrong. Christ's rule is to forgive everyone, forgive your brother's debts, and love your neighbor as yourself. Now if your brother or sister took something to you, would you want them beaten, or instead would you want them to restore your property and never rob you again? Christ commands the latter. And to love others like yourself, you have to be able to ask forgiveness from others you have wronged and reconcile rather than beating yourself. That is very long.

Pain from beatings actually causes masochistic pleasure, one which even the victims are not aware. And no, pain does NOT necessarily "build" character, it can break people down and destroy their character, especially when it is self-inflicted destruction. At least when it is inflicted by others, like a bully, you can persevere against adversity. In self-flagellation you are attacking yourself, not going against adversity. It's very very very wrong.

I do not want to sound condescending, but I do not think you speak for Orthodoxy on this as an authority. I do not think any of us can, except maybe a priest, and even there maybe not. Because matters like this there may be no clear answer. It's like whether hell is a literal fire or not. You may be right, and I be wrong. Just sayin...and I am not trying to be patronizing.
The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet.
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #99 on: April 08, 2015, 08:59:17 PM »
Quote
Indeed, flagellation was the source of many of the 'spiritual ecstasies' claimed by Western saints. This is reasonable since flagellation is a form of masturbation. It very quickly becomes a form of sexual addiction.

I guess if the Khlysty had gotten started in 1990 instead of the 17th century, their hymns might have gone something like this:

Quote
I don't want anybody else
When I think about You, I flog myself....
« Last Edit: April 08, 2015, 09:00:36 PM by Minnesotan »
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline wainscottbl

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #100 on: April 08, 2015, 09:37:42 PM »
Quote
Indeed, flagellation was the source of many of the 'spiritual ecstasies' claimed by Western saints. This is reasonable since flagellation is a form of masturbation. It very quickly becomes a form of sexual addiction.

Some people do like bondage fantasies. They may even use them as part of their masturbation. Alright, but that's ridiculous to say that a person who whips themselves from spiritual reasons is subconsciously satisfying some sexual desire to be whipped.

Anyway this makes sense:

Quote
There are many contemporary accounts of the ecstasies aroused by flagellation, especially among nuns. Often, monks would flagellate themselves into a trance and, wounded and bleeding, begin to proclaim revelations they thought they had received from God

This is why when I read about St Dominic's vision in the forest where he went out fasting for days until he passed out (when he received the Rosary) I was wondering if maybe that extreme self harm to the point of passing out could have caused it. I also thought there was something wrong with doing that to be honest. But of course you read that those who were opposed to the Rosary (not because it was praying to the Virgin as Protestants are, but for whatever Catholic reason) were punished by God with death, etc. So you feel like you HAVE to believe it. I don't know. I believed it, and maybe I still do, but I do not like the idea of harming yourself so much that you pass out. But I still hold that a little flogging is fine.
The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet.
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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #101 on: April 08, 2015, 09:54:02 PM »
Quote
Indeed, flagellation was the source of many of the 'spiritual ecstasies' claimed by Western saints. This is reasonable since flagellation is a form of masturbation. It very quickly becomes a form of sexual addiction.

Some people do like bondage fantasies. They may even use them as part of their masturbation. Alright, but that's ridiculous to say that a person who whips themselves from spiritual reasons is subconsciously satisfying some sexual desire to be whipped.

...

But I still hold that a little flogging is fine.
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline Theophania

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #102 on: April 08, 2015, 09:56:00 PM »
I can't decide what kind of flogging you guys are talking about.

Happy Holy Week, y'all!
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #103 on: April 08, 2015, 10:11:20 PM »
I can't decide what kind of flogging you guys are talking about.
Well, don't beat yourself up over it.

Please.
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Offline wainscottbl

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #104 on: April 08, 2015, 10:42:08 PM »
I can't decide what kind of flogging you guys are talking about.

Happy Holy Week, y'all!

There's flogging with sticks, flogging with boards, flogging with chains, flogging with spiked chains, flogging with boards with nails in it, flogging with paddles, flogging with hands, flogging with kids Hot Wheels race track pieces (one of my old punishments as a child), even flogging with those things you open and close your blinds with (another spanking stick for me), and even flogging with flip-flops. There are all sorts of floggings.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #105 on: April 08, 2015, 11:32:37 PM »
logging with paddles, flogging with hands, flogging with kids Hot Wheels race track pieces (one of my old punishments as a child), even flogging with those things you open and close your blinds with (another spanking stick for me), and even flogging with flip-flops.

 :o ??? ::) :-X

Wow.

Wow.



Exactly. This thread is about crypto-masochism.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2015, 11:32:54 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #106 on: April 08, 2015, 11:57:12 PM »
I can't decide what kind of flogging you guys are talking about.

Happy Holy Week, y'all!

There's flogging with sticks, flogging with boards, flogging with chains, flogging with spiked chains, flogging with boards with nails in it, flogging with paddles, flogging with hands, flogging with kids Hot Wheels race track pieces (one of my old punishments as a child), even flogging with those things you open and close your blinds with (another spanking stick for me), and even flogging with flip-flops. There are all sorts of floggings.

I think you forgot the most important one: flogging the dolphin. Which really, self-flagellation always seemed like a poor substitute. Real saints trying to destroy the passions dip their fingers into a flame.
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

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Offline wainscottbl

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #107 on: April 09, 2015, 03:32:26 AM »
logging with paddles, flogging with hands, flogging with kids Hot Wheels race track pieces (one of my old punishments as a child), even flogging with those things you open and close your blinds with (another spanking stick for me), and even flogging with flip-flops.

 :o ??? ::) :-X

Wow.


Wow.



Exactly. This thread is about crypto-masochism.

Yes, total crypto stuff! Just ask Alex Jones!



Yes, and Alex Jones just finished masturbating himself into a seizure. Supposedly that is pretty much what some saints did according to a quote you posted above. ;D ;) :P :-X

 Actually, there are seizures that become "visions" or mystical episodes. Mohammed had them. Dostoyevsky, too. I think I have had two or three. Not that you see visions per se, but you become very happy and spiritual. But you can have hallucinations, though they are not psychological, but neurological in the case of a seizure. Sort of like hallucinations during a severe fever or with a tumor. The person is not crazy who has them with a tumor or epileptic seizure. But you can induce these things, as maybe some saints did. Mohammed had them. He would come out of his seizure and not be sure if what he dictated was true or false. You see, you have a sort of ecstatic period, where you speak of lofty things, and then you fall down into convulsions. Mohammed dictated the Qu'ran and then would go into convulsions.

My guess is that some saints did this. Some have speculated on this, including St. Paul. St. Dominic was doing harsh things to himself in the forest when he fell into an "ecstasy". As an epileptic who is very interested in my disease, my reading makes me guess it was some kind of seizure, though not epileptic perhaps. You see, if a person drinks very heavily or something, it can cause seizures. And harsh penance or anything that is too hard on the body/brain. The brain gets overloaded.

Anyway, I am against these harsh things we read of Western saints doing. I always was a bit wary of it. It just seemed "fanatical" to me. Did the Desert Fathers do stuff like this?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 03:35:02 AM by wainscottbl »
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #108 on: April 09, 2015, 03:48:31 AM »


I can't tell you how relieving it is to not deal with that urge any more  8)
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Offline wainscottbl

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #109 on: April 09, 2015, 04:04:00 AM »


I can't tell you how relieving it is to not deal with that urge any more  8)

So you are saying I'm wrong. Put em up, put em up! I'll come to your house and pour water on your computer....then I'll flog you.
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #110 on: April 09, 2015, 04:29:16 AM »
Courtesy of your classy local Jackson, Mississippi abortion clinic.



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Offline wainscottbl

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #111 on: April 09, 2015, 08:35:32 AM »
Courtesy of your classy local Jackson, Mississippi abortion clinic.



Selam

?????

Sad, but I think you posted on the wrong thread.
The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet.
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #112 on: April 09, 2015, 09:22:32 AM »
Courtesy of your classy local Jackson, Mississippi abortion clinic.



Selam

?????

Sad, but I think you posted on the wrong thread.

Look on the far right; the words "Go Flog Yourself" are written in spraypaint stencil.
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline wainscottbl

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #113 on: April 09, 2015, 05:01:23 PM »
Courtesy of your classy local Jackson, Mississippi abortion clinic.



Selam

?????

Sad, but I think you posted on the wrong thread.

Look on the far right; the words "Go Flog Yourself" are written in spraypaint stencil.

Yes, I just saw it! That's nuts. "Women are the divine!"  "Get some condom sense"

I don't get the "Go flog yourself" in this context.
The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #114 on: April 09, 2015, 05:56:58 PM »


I can't tell you how relieving it is to not deal with that urge any more  8)
How'd you do it?
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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #115 on: April 09, 2015, 05:58:23 PM »


I can't tell you how relieving it is to not deal with that urge any more  8)
How'd you do it?

It involves coming to the realization that your failure to convince other people of their mistakes is not necessarily a poor reflection on yourself.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #116 on: April 09, 2015, 06:01:06 PM »


I can't tell you how relieving it is to not deal with that urge any more  8)
How'd you do it?

It involves coming to the realization that your failure to convince other people of their mistakes is not necessarily a poor reflection on yourself.

I just spent a few hours on a Skeptics (doubters') forum where 83% of skeptics polled said there is no reason to question the official narrative on 9/11. I tried to explain to the skeptics that actually, reasons to question things exist even if you do not agree with dissident conclusions drawn from those questions. I think I will have to leave that debate "unresolved".
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 06:04:20 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline wainscottbl

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #117 on: April 09, 2015, 06:10:03 PM »


I can't tell you how relieving it is to not deal with that urge any more  8)
How'd you do it?

It involves coming to the realization that your failure to convince other people of their mistakes is not necessarily a poor reflection on yourself.

I just spent a few hours on a Skeptics (doubters') forum where 83% of skeptics polled said there is no reason to question the official narrative on 9/11. I tried to explain to the skeptics that actually, reasons to question things exist even if you do not agree with dissident conclusions drawn from those questions. I think I will have to leave that debate "unresolved".

You are a conspiracy theorist is you are skeptical about 9/11, but it's okay to be skeptical about God's existence, because that's just hip. I mean you're really smart if you believe God does not exist. But you're really stupid if you believe in God and that 9/11 was an inside job. Have you ever been to RationalWiki? It's disgustingly smug. All they do is mock. This is why I appreciate the idea of the holy fool or the wise idiot. There was this hillbilly on the bus at the hospital the other day, and he was much more wise I would say, than most intelligent people. He was simple, perhaps of average/below average intelligence, but wise I gathered from what he said. Intellectualism is a vile thing. Intellect is one thing, but "rationalists....
The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet.
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Offline stella1990

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #118 on: December 21, 2015, 06:43:12 PM »
Some stuff like this makes me sick...

If some nun or monk has real problems about chastity maybe it could be an option... (and even it's scary).
But making it the rule for all nuns/monks????? I one reads ex nuns testimonies in internet one can find that this practice is common and they are flogging every week, depending on the order. Maybe 3 times per week.
For me , this is insane... it makes me feel God as an angry God who only wants us to suffer. I don't see how a loving God would want his most loved sons/daughters to suffer so much.

I know that monastic life is a hard life. One has to renounce to all worldy things and live in poverty, obey superiors  and a strict rule of life and remain chaste. But that is one thing... and another very different is inflicting oneself physical harm as common weekly practice just because saints did it.

Thanks God orthodoxy doesn't have this as a common practice.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 06:44:50 PM by stella1990 »

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #119 on: December 21, 2015, 07:29:47 PM »
I am not aware of self-flagellation as being a practice in the Bible or as something that the Fathers taught was normal.

Paul writes: "I chastise* my body and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps when I have preached to others I myself should be castaway" (1 Cor 9:27)

But this * is better translated as treat severely, exhaust, harass discipline with hardship. See for example where this same word is translated as "wear out" here: Luke 18:5
Lopukhin's commentary is that this refers to Paul's self-deprivations.

This just does not seem wholesome to me:




Self-flagellating nun
« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 07:30:31 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Flogging yourself
« Reply #120 on: December 21, 2015, 07:52:55 PM »
This anti-Orthodox website claims:

Quote
Geronda Ephraim has stated that Elder Joseph the Hesychast use to hit him and his other monastics; both with his cane as well as with slaps across the face and head, as a form of disciplinary action.


The following article is taken from the 4th Chapter of History of Flagellation Among Different Nations. New York: Medical Publishing Co., 1930: pp. 47-53.
  • self-flagellation made no part of the rules or statutes in those early stages of Christianity...
    Nay more, we find that bishops during the very first times of Christianity, assumed the paternal power we mention, even with regard to persons who were bound to them by no vow whatever, when they happened to have been guilty either of breaches of piety or of heresy. Of this, a remarkable proof may be deduced from the 59th Epistle of St. Augustin, which he wrote to the Tribune Marcellinus, concerning the Donatists. St. Augustin expresses himself in the following words: “Do not recede from that parental diligence you have manifested in your researches after offenders; in which you have succeeded to procure confessions of such great crimes, not by using racks, red-hot blades of iron, or flames, but only by the application of rods. This is a method of coercion which is frequently practiced by teachers of the fine arts upon their pupils, by parents upon their children, and often also by bishops upon those whom they find to have been guilty of offences.”

    Another proof of this power of flagellation, assumed by bishops in very early times, may be derived from the account which Cyprianus has given of Cesarius, Bishop of Arles; who says, that that bishop endeavoured as much as possible, in the exercise of his power, to keep within the bounds of moderation prescribed by the Law of Moses. The following are Cyprianus’s words: “This holy man took constant care that those who were subjected to his authority, whether they were of a free or servile condition, when they were to be flagellated for some offence they had committed, should not receive more than thirty-nine stripes. If any of them, however, had been guilty of a previous fault, then indeed he permitted them to be again lashed a few days afterwards, though with a smaller number of stripes.”
    "When they were to be flagellated for some offence they had committed, they did not receive more than 39 stripes."
https://scottnevinssuicide.wordpress.com/2015/02/page/2/

« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 07:56:36 PM by rakovsky »
The ocean, impassable by men, and the world beyond it are directed by the same ordinances of the Master. ~ I Clement 20