Cephas
There is no spoon.
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Jurisdiction: See of St. Mark
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« on: June 17, 2005, 01:02:56 PM » |
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†Irini nem ehmot â€Â
Hello all,
I'm not sure if this question has been raised, if it has, please forgive the redundancy. I remember reading that Satan cannot repent and be restored because his sin originated within himself. That is, he was the source of his own downfall. We, as humans, can always repent as long as we live because we are tempted to sin by Satan, and as such, as long as we repent, we can inherit the kingdom of heaven. But my question is about the fallen angels. Can they repent and be restored? While Satan sinned as a result of his own pride, was that the case of the other third of the heavenly hosts? Did the source of their sin come from within themselves or, were they tempted by Satan, in the same way Eve was tempted by him, and as a result, fell.
Prayers please.
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« Last Edit: June 17, 2005, 01:03:37 PM by Cephas »
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Cephas
"But he was wounded for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the punishment that made us whole, and by his bruises we are healed."
-- Isaiah 53:5
"He who knows himself knows God"
-- Pi Nishti Abba Antony
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Doubting Thomas
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« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2005, 01:12:24 PM » |
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I don't know what the official Orthodox answer might be, but I've often wondered if the fixity of the angels' decisions (elect or fallen) has something to do with a different way in which, by nature, they may experience time.
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"My Lord and My God!"--Doubting Thomas, AD 33
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Cephas
There is no spoon.
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Posts: 288
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« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2005, 01:24:36 PM » |
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I don't know what the official Orthodox answer might be, but I've often wondered if the fixity of the angels' decisions (elect or fallen) has something to do with a different way in which, by nature, they may experience time.
That is an interesting point. Since all angels were originally in Heaven, time is a non-issue. Basically it doesn't exist in eternity. The way I understand it, eternity could be viewed as a perpeutal state of "present". I mean, when God spoke to Moses on Mt. Sinai, He refers to Himself as "I AM" (the ever present). There is no "was" or "will be" in eternity. Everything just is. So would that mean that any descision made in Heaven would be "eternal" and "unchangeable" because it is always made, so to speak. That is you can't take back a decision that is constantly made (if that makes any sense). |
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Cephas
"But he was wounded for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the punishment that made us whole, and by his bruises we are healed."
-- Isaiah 53:5
"He who knows himself knows God"
-- Pi Nishti Abba Antony
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Cephas
There is no spoon.
Elder
Offline
Faith: Coptic Orthodox
Jurisdiction: See of St. Mark
Posts: 288
γνῶθισε αυτόν
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« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2005, 01:29:05 PM » |
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Okay, here's another thought though. Initially, since the angels were in heaven, they were not bound by time. However, since now they have been cast out of heaven, would they now be "bound" by time so to speak? I mean, is their decision now still an "eternal" decision, or can they go back on it? As I understand it, hell is inaccessible in the same way that heaven is (until after the Final Judgement). So that would mean that Satan and his angels would be in a state of oblivion, not in heaven, not in hell and not on earth.
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Cephas
"But he was wounded for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the punishment that made us whole, and by his bruises we are healed."
-- Isaiah 53:5
"He who knows himself knows God"
-- Pi Nishti Abba Antony
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Doubting Thomas
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« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2005, 01:33:44 PM » |
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Okay, here's another thought though. Initially, since the angels were in heaven, they were not bound by time. However, since now they have been cast out of heaven, would they now be "bound" by time so to speak? I mean, is their decision now still an "eternal" decision, or can they go back on it? As I understand it, hell is inaccessible in the same way that heaven is (until after the Final Judgement). So that would mean that Satan and his angels would be in a state of oblivion, not in heaven, not in hell and not on earth.ÂÂ
This raises some interesting issues. First, it could be that the angelic "heaven" was indeed created, but it just exists in a different dimension where time may progress much differently than either time as we know it or eternity as God knows it. I remember reading in the past that Aquinas had a name for this, "aeveternal" or something to that effect. |
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"My Lord and My God!"--Doubting Thomas, AD 33
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Cephas
There is no spoon.
Elder
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Faith: Coptic Orthodox
Jurisdiction: See of St. Mark
Posts: 288
γνῶθισε αυτόν
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« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2005, 01:42:20 PM » |
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hmmm... that would mean that there would be an additional level in heaven. I recall reading a book by HH Pope Shenouda in which he discusses there being 4 levels of heaven mentioned in the Bible.
Level 1 - The heavens of the birds
Level 2 - The heavens of the stars and the firmament
Level 3 - The third heaven of Paradise
Level 4 - The heaven of heavens where the Throne of God is.
What Aquinas would be suggesting then is a "Level 3.5" then where the angels would have existed. But the angels stand in the prescence of God at all time for all time. Wouldn't that put them in the 4th heaven then (the eternal, timeless heaven)?
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Cephas
"But he was wounded for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the punishment that made us whole, and by his bruises we are healed."
-- Isaiah 53:5
"He who knows himself knows God"
-- Pi Nishti Abba Antony
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cizinec
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« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2005, 01:50:16 PM » |
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OHHHHHHH my foolish friends. Watch ye not the films of Hollywood? Hast ye not seen the (crappy and blasphemous) film Dogma? All these questions are answered therein. Trust ye not in the veracity of Hollywood?
Wow, my Elizabethan English is about as good as Joseph Smith's.
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"Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery."
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Cephas
There is no spoon.
Elder
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Faith: Coptic Orthodox
Jurisdiction: See of St. Mark
Posts: 288
γνῶθισε αυτόν
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« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2005, 01:54:26 PM » |
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OHHHHHHH my foolish friends. Watch ye not the films of Hollywood? Hast ye not seen the (crappy and blasphemous) film Dogma? All these questions are answered therein. Trust ye not in the veracity of Hollywood?
Wow, my Elizabethan English is about as good as Joseph Smith's.
Actually, I've seen only parts of it, and honestly, I found it quite amusing. Although isn't the premise of the movie to "discuss" (i know, more like bash) Catholic dogma in particular? I don't think it's a free for all on Christianity in general. As for the veracity of Hollywood... lol, how could we ever doubt them?! Perish the thought.  |
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Cephas
"But he was wounded for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the punishment that made us whole, and by his bruises we are healed."
-- Isaiah 53:5
"He who knows himself knows God"
-- Pi Nishti Abba Antony
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cizinec
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« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2005, 01:57:57 PM » |
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Beats me, I never saw it.
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"Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery."
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Cephas
There is no spoon.
Elder
Offline
Faith: Coptic Orthodox
Jurisdiction: See of St. Mark
Posts: 288
γνῶθισε αυτόν
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« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2005, 07:31:32 PM » |
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Ah. I had assumed that since you had brought up the movie you had seen it. lol.
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Cephas
"But he was wounded for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the punishment that made us whole, and by his bruises we are healed."
-- Isaiah 53:5
"He who knows himself knows God"
-- Pi Nishti Abba Antony
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