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Author Topic: Fear of a Black Jesus  (Read 11656 times) Average Rating: 0
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sin_vladimirov
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« Reply #90 on: June 21, 2005, 07:42:09 AM »

Yes that's exactly what I meant... We... all of us. I also never questioned it until it was pointed out to me.
Not me, nor anyone I know.
It could be many, but not in my life.

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Really? hmm.. Well I've seen a lot of Icons with a blond and blue-eyed Jesus and Mary. In Ethiopian many Ethiopian churches and homes there is this one, I guess Russian icon ( http://www.ethiopianorthodoxchurch.org/images/mariam_2.jpg ) where both are blue eyed and Jesus is blond.

As far as I am aware (maybe some Russian Orthodox can correct me) some Russian Icons from either XVIII or XIX centuries have been deemed "overly influenced' by the west; mostly due to Peter "The Greats" wish to "westernise Russia". Now I am not sure about that; but I am sure that as far as The Orthodox Church is concerned, Lord was not white with blue eyes. Now, in the Orthodox Church Catholicity of the Church goes long way (that is what was believed by the whole Church, everywhere and always). So, those Russian Icons (and some of them do go against rules of Iconography) do not represent what is held by the Church, and indeed what is held by the Russian Orthodox Church.

I am not an expert, but I think that the way to clean up the Church from heterodox ideas is not to develop new heterodox ideas, but to return to Orthodox ones, whether we talk about Icons or Theological Methodology, or whatever else.

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Okay, it isn't offensive of you to say this in connection with the black eyed peas guy... but not with a Jesus depicted as a black man with dreads or an Afro! Jesus is Jesus, nothing changes if he's depicted like that! And well I guess that there are more than enough stupid people with blond hair and blue eyes I could make a connection with... I hope you know what I mean.

I agree, but exactly for this reason, I do not think that Orthodox Church has to become a field where me and you will argue about colour of the Lord, because I am a Serb and you an Ethiopian... LOL
Lets have a war, and who wins he gets to choose! Grin

Please, trust me, I am the first one to argue the point that Lord was not White with blue eyes; that does make me angry. It comes mostly from RC and Protestants. Now, I am not the person that can talk about these groups. I do feel negative towards alot of things that come from the west. Their Religious Art is one of those things. Especially what comes from USA as far as Religious Expression of non-Orthodox is concerned.

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Yes, this is absolutely true... but even in Orthodox tradition there are different ways of portraying our Lord and Saviour and his Blessed Mother. look at http://www.jerusalem-gifts.com/index.html?target=Orthodox_Russian_GiftsWood_Icons.html for example.
On some of them Jesus is blond. So the tradition doesn't seem to say anything about the colour of Jesus and Mary (be it eye, hair or skin color)... does it? Well maybe it's different in the different orthodox churches...

Again, I do not find those Russian Icons (or any other Orthodox Icons of "that western feel" to them) to be Orthodox, that is done the way that it was done at any time BEFORE Peter the Great.

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The church doesn't seem to have a teaching on that, does it?
Well, it does. It is called Orthodox Iconography. Now I am not sure about the rules, but it seems logical to me that those rules MUST BE VERY CLEAR. Why? Well, if for 1800 years all Orthodox Iconographers practiced Iconography one way, and the it was suddenly changed (by some in minority of places) then it must be obvious that these "some" have done it wrong. It comes (as far as I know) from Russian Tzar Peter the Great, who wanted to westernise Russia, because he thought that Russians were to backward, so he introduced many Protestant (Lutheran) and Roman Catholic ideas into the country. Some of them, find their way into Orthodox Church. But this does not mean that all Orthodox (and all Russian Orthodox) supported/support this trend.

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And yes, I guess I'm Orthodox (although I don't know very much about my religion... I want to learn and that's why I'm here...)  Wink
Well, that is great, I love making friends by arguing with them and insulting them...I am an idiot...
I really apologise if anything that I wrote is offensive.
I deleted some of my stupid and idiotic coments (I am sorry I wrote that comparison  with BEP in the first place),
 
I should've thought about what I write before I write it.
Please forgive if there is anything that I wrote that offends you.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 08:17:02 AM by sin_vladimirov » Logged

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ExOrienteLux
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« Reply #91 on: June 21, 2005, 10:51:53 AM »

Like Stefan said, those 'icons' that were posted were heavily influenced by Tsar Peter the Not-So-Great's Westernization of Russia.

http://ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/icons/data/pantokrator.gif - That is a traditional Russian icon of Christ.  And look!  He's got olive skin and brown hair!  What ethnic group does that sound like?

http://www.templegallery.com/pages/master/84_999/full.jpg - And this is a traditional Russian icon of the Theotokos.  Once again, she and her Son both have olive skin and dark hair!

If you're going to reference Orthodox Icons, please reference icons done according to the established schools and not the horrible oil paintings that Peter the Not-So-Great pushed on Russia.  If you're going to reference those, then I guess that means you can draw an icon of the Father, since that school is famous for doing such a thing...  Roll Eyes

-Philip.
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« Reply #92 on: June 21, 2005, 05:56:17 PM »

Hey SP:

Not being a DP, you have about as much connection to the stari kraj as both me and my wife.ÂÂ  My wife's Djed fought with Draza and Momcilo Djujic, yet he was always proud of his American citizenship.ÂÂ  You are a posturing kid- a punk.ÂÂ  Does emphasizing your Serbianness makes you feel special at school?ÂÂ  A standout in a crowd of pasty Brits?ÂÂ  (You are different and special, a proud warrior of the Serbian race. Blah blah blah.)ÂÂ  You are a subject of the British Crown and judging from your prose, an ungrateful — although not necessarily adept- recipient of the gifts of her educational system.ÂÂ  

Serbs are Slavs and are genetically no different from other Slavs.ÂÂ  

How about you move back to the Selo, brale.ÂÂ  Don’t you have some sheep to herd?ÂÂ  Or if you prefer, you can be unemployed and bitter, hanging out in Kafane with your cell phone and big gold necklace.ÂÂ  

Budala.

Im an ungrateful, bitter, unemployed punk that should go back to herding sheep?  My effort to keep my commentary purely factual obviously has affected you deeply.  Since you have no facts of your own to respond with, you manifest your intolerance of all view points different to your own by insulting people.  I will respond in greater length when I have more time.
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« Reply #93 on: June 21, 2005, 06:00:26 PM »

You speak Djubre. A third generation upper middle class brat claiming his ethnic heritage. *yawn*ÂÂ  Roll Eyes I would love to drop you off in the middle of the former Yugoslavia and watch you survive. Maybe I'll call NBC and have it made into a reality show.
Edited for error.
Again, absolutely no logic or facts, just another rant where the only Serbian you use is to insult me by telling me i speak rubbish.  Try and put together a coherent argument, so i can respond to it, you have written absolutely nothing of any use.
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« Reply #94 on: June 21, 2005, 06:00:41 PM »

Frankly, I didn't feel like reading this whole thing so sorry if someone has allready said this.  Undecided

Jesus was neither black or white, he was born in Jerusalem and he was an Israelite. Of course God would have made him look like every other Israelite, right?  Huh  Undecided

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« Reply #95 on: June 21, 2005, 06:00:50 PM »

Like Stefan said, those 'icons' that were posted were heavily influenced by Tsar Peter the Not-So-Great's Westernization of Russia.

http://ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/icons/data/pantokrator.gif - That is a traditional Russian icon of Christ.  And look!  He's got olive skin and brown hair!  What ethnic group does that sound like?

http://www.templegallery.com/pages/master/84_999/full.jpg - And this is a traditional Russian icon of the Theotokos.  Once again, she and her Son both have olive skin and dark hair!

If you're going to reference Orthodox Icons, please reference icons done according to the established schools and not the horrible oil paintings that Peter the Not-So-Great pushed on Russia.  If you're going to reference those, then I guess that means you can draw an icon of the Father, since that school is famous for doing such a thing...  Roll Eyes

-Philip.
Thank you very much! I've learned a lot! Also in Ethiopia, the traditional way of depicting our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ is neither blond and blue eyed nor Black... So maybe we follow similar traditions (although the iconography is totally different).
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« Reply #96 on: June 21, 2005, 06:08:29 PM »

Quote
As far as I am aware (maybe some Russian Orthodox can correct me) some Russian Icons from either XVIII or XIX centuries have been deemed "overly influenced' by the west; mostly due to Peter "The Greats" wish to "westernise Russia". Now I am not sure about that; but I am sure that as far as The Orthodox Church is concerned, Lord was not white with blue eyes. Now, in the Orthodox Church Catholicity of the Church goes long way (that is what was believed by the whole Church, everywhere and always). So, those Russian Icons (and some of them do go against rules of Iconography) do not represent what is held by the Church, and indeed what is held by the Russian Orthodox Church.
Thanks! I've just learned something new!

Quote
I am not an expert, but I think that the way to clean up the Church from heterodox ideas is not to develop new heterodox ideas, but to return to Orthodox ones, whether we talk about Icons or Theological Methodology, or whatever else.
Yes, I absolutely agree with you!

Quote
I agree, but exactly for this reason, I do not think that Orthodox Church has to become a field where me and you will argue about colour of the Lord, because I am a Serb and you an Ethiopian... LOL
Lets have a war, and who wins he gets to choose! Grin
Serbians and Ethiopians fighting... hmm.. the last time we fought we fought side by side against the fascists... I don't know if you are aware of that common history of ours...
but I know what you meant...  Wink  Grin

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Well, that is great, I love making friends by arguing with them and insulting them...I am an idiot...
Haha... well, it's okay... you just should be a bit more sensitive at times...  Wink

Quote
Please forgive if there is anything that I wrote that offends you.
Yes, there were things that offended me... but I forgive you... everyone makes mistakes...
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Ebor
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« Reply #97 on: June 21, 2005, 06:31:03 PM »

people can tend to impose their unconscious stereotypes on sacred subjects.

No disrespect, Beewolf, but I'm wondering about "impose".  As the message of the Gospel spread around the globe to other nations and people, it's a very Human thing to make some kind of art/representation.   Someone would mostly likely use the style of art that is that of the time and country.  Japanese depictions of St. Mary and the Christ child that I have seen are in the Japanese style for example.  Ones from different peoples in Africa don't look like they're from Asia or Europe. How is that "imposing" as opposed to bringing Christianity into their land/culture?

Ebor
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« Reply #98 on: June 21, 2005, 11:39:17 PM »

No disrespect, Beewolf, but I'm wondering about "impose".  As the message of the Gospel spread around the globe to other nations and people, it's a very Human thing to make some kind of art/representation.  ÃƒÆ’‚ Someone would mostly likely use the style of art that is that of the time and country.  Japanese depictions of St. Mary and the Christ child that I have seen are in the Japanese style for example.  Ones from different peoples in Africa don't look like they're from Asia or Europe. How is that "imposing" as opposed to bringing Christianity into their land/culture?

Ebor

I apologise if i seemed narrow by using the word 'impose' but i meant it in its most straightforward sense, i imply no value judgement, merely the common use - to lay something over something else. I realise that people often use the word in the sense of exerting an 'influence over' something in a negative way. I agree with your rather wonderful point of the universality of Christ, Christianity being a truly trans-cultural religion, Christ having died for all people in all cultures. Thanks for your reply Ebor it is very apt. As long as we can all think outside of the stereotypes of our age/culuture we shall be very rich in our understanding and appreciation of the rich diversity of the Church.

Blessings Smiley
« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 11:42:02 PM by beewolf » Logged

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« Reply #99 on: June 22, 2005, 12:20:29 AM »


 I have never met or heard of anyone (until 777) that is questioning the way Church sees (and represent)  the Lord.

I am not questioning the traditional depiction of Christ. It is certainly an improvement on the christianized image of Apollo. I just happen to think that my avatar picture looks cool.
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sin_vladimirov
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« Reply #100 on: June 22, 2005, 12:48:57 AM »

I am not questioning the traditional depiction of Christ. It is certainly an improvement on the christianized image of Apollo. I just happen to think that my avatar picture looks cool.

I am sorry for misuderstanding, I thought you were questioning. This not being the case, I apologize.
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« Reply #101 on: June 22, 2005, 12:55:59 AM »

There is nothing to be sorry about. I do find it an interesting possibility that Jesus was a man of color but it is not something especially important to dwell on.
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