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Author Topic: Fear of a Black Jesus  (Read 11547 times) Average Rating: 0
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Cephas
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« Reply #45 on: June 17, 2005, 06:34:34 PM »

Cephas,

Yes, but it's a good enough country to spounge off all of it's benefits, it's relatively peaceful climate, etc. etc.  Yup, sickening as well.

Frankly, you should book a flight on the next plain and leave.  I have no sympathy for this mentality, as it rightfully gives fodder to those who are already suspicious of immigration.

I would put both the words "benefits" and "realtively peaceful" between quotes.  I am by no means saying I hate the country.  Canada has been good (for the most part) to me.  All I'm saying is that (to use the old cliche) "blood is thicker than water".  As for sympathy, I can assure you I am most certainly not looking for your (or anyone else's for that matter) symapthy.  Again, I am not an immigrant (as I believe i stated that i was born here).  I pay taxes and thankfully there is no draft in which i have to worry about.  I obey the laws of the land as Christ taught, "Render to Ceasar that which is Ceasar's, and to God that which is God's".  That is as far as my loyalties will lie though.  As for providing fodder for those who are suspicious of immigration, do you honestly think that?  Irregardless of what anyone says, there will always be uneducated redneck hicks who are suspicious of anything different than themselves.  My loyalty (or lack thereof) will not change anything.
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« Reply #46 on: June 17, 2005, 06:54:18 PM »

Quote
Are you eligible for the draft?

Ha! We Canadians do not have a draft.  Grin

As a Canadian, I'm not as much loyal to the Canada as I am to our monarch, Elizabeth II, Queen by the grace of God and rightful ruler of Canada. I guess that makes be a loyalist to you Yanks.

Mind you, my political affiliations change rapidly as I'm in college; viva la Quebec libre, eh.
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« Reply #47 on: June 17, 2005, 08:36:02 PM »

And I will ask again: What are the depictions you refer to?

"A Black Madonna (also, Black Virgin) is a statue or painting of Mary in which she is depicted as having black skin. Hundreds of them exist in southern France alone.

The most widely accepted explanation is that the Madonnas were not meant to represent a black-skinned Mary, but rather they are black simply because of the wood or stone they were carved from, or that smoke from candles and incense have turned them black.

According to some legends, however, the Black Madonnas do not depict Mary, the mother of Jesus, but rather Mary Magdalene. It is certainly true that where there are Black Madonnas, there generally is also a strong tradition of venerating Mary Magdalene. According to this view, the Black Madonna is claimed to symbolize the allegedly hidden story of Mary Magdalene, after she fled to Egypt pregnant with Jesus's child and then went on safely to Provence, France.

Yet another explanation posits that the figure represents a Christianised version of the goddess Isis with her child Horus." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Madonna
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« Reply #48 on: June 17, 2005, 09:26:53 PM »

"A Black Madonna (also, Black Virgin) is a statue or painting of Mary in which she is depicted as having black skin. Hundreds of them exist in southern France alone.

The most widely accepted explanation is that the Madonnas were not meant to represent a black-skinned Mary, but rather they are black simply because of the wood or stone they were carved from, or that smoke from candles and incense have turned them black.

According to some legends, however, the Black Madonnas do not depict Mary, the mother of Jesus, but rather Mary Magdalene. It is certainly true that where there are Black Madonnas, there generally is also a strong tradition of venerating Mary Magdalene. According to this view, the Black Madonna is claimed to symbolize the allegedly hidden story of Mary Magdalene, after she fled to Egypt pregnant with Jesus's child and then went on safely to Provence, France.

Yet another explanation posits that the figure represents a Christianised version of the goddess Isis with her child Horus." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Madonna

From viewing these statues I cannot conclude that they are purposely depicting a black African woman because the facial features do no fit with either black African races (Capoid and Negroid).
Also I have heard the various statues of the girl with the alabaster jar are supposed to be St. Mary Magdalene's daughter. Of course that comes out of the Dan Brown balogna crowd.

http://www.breviary.net/images/sacredheart8.jpg
Perhaps this is the Jesus Christ Matthew is afraid of?
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« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2005, 10:00:38 PM »

Though I am not fearful of the concept of a blonde-haired, blue-eyed Jesus, I do find it to be inaccurate.
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« Reply #50 on: June 17, 2005, 11:09:28 PM »

I am sorry brother Serbian P. feels that way.

SOC in Australia prayes for HRH Elizabeth II, which whom I do respect as my Monarch. I was a soldier of the Royal Australian Infantry Corps for 6 years. I was not even born in Australia.

To tell you the truth, I feel no contradiction in being Australian of a Serb Heritage. And in my 30 years the only people ever that gave me a grieff abuot my accent were Serbians when I was living as a refuge in Serbia between 1992-1995 (and being from Bosnia, we have different accents, we say things one way they say it other, they call me a moslem because I speak that way, which is really funny, the reformer of Serbian Language Vuk S. Karadzic spoke the way we in Bosnia do).

Anyway, not many Serbs in Australia feel the "burning need" to NOT be Australians and publicly say so, and I do not find talking to them very attractive. After all if you are not happy with where you are (and you are not in jail that is) go where you will be happier.


I come to Australia with 50DM (German Marks in 1995-which was abour 35USD back then). And this country gave me to live, not telling me ever that I need to throw away anything assuming anything new. Whilst in the Army, I nearly got jailed for doing a guard duty on "Serbian" Christmas (according to Julian Calendar) and not telling anyone about it. It was a serious breach of ones religious rights (they did not care that it was a breach of me on me).

So, each to their own, I can not agree with BEING IN SOME PLACE and NOT RESPECTING IT. That is such a sectarian attitude. For if you do not respect what God gave you today, you will never respect what He will give you tommorow.

But, that is me. I for one love the little flag (under my nick) and there is no man alive that can tell me that is a bad thing and makes me any less Serb or that being Serb makes me any less Australian.

I had both Serbs and Aussies having to die so I can live and I would have done the same if I was granted the honour.
My whole unit (a battalion) collected money (and a good sum at that) and Commanding Officer took it to the Serbian Priest when this one was visiting our base for a wedding of an officer of our brigade (whos wife is of Serbian origin). The money was given for the Children who lost their parent/s during the war in the Balkans. Serbian Children.

So, if you excuse me, each to their own. I for one, can not agree with hating what God gave you today being good or bad.

Forgive me.
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« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2005, 12:31:39 AM »

Quote
Though I am not fearful of the concept of a blonde-haired, blue-eyed Jesus, I do find it to be inaccurate.

You mean almost as innacurate as your avatar? I really don't care how light or dark he was. I have to wonder about any theologian that has the time to sit around and pontificate about skin color.... Roll Eyes Maybe there are better things to do like ummmm feed the homeless?
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« Reply #52 on: June 18, 2005, 12:53:30 AM »

Those aren't your own words, Mathew, you're just quoting the Wikipedia article verbatim.  Have *you* seen any of the "Earliest depictions" and if so, which ones are you thinking of?

And for Pete's Sake!  The article lists Our Lady of Guadalupe as a "Black Madonna"?!??   Why on earth should the rest of it be believed.  And THE "Black Madonna" of Czestochowa does not have, as Sabbas wrote facial features that look any kind of African. (Of which there are many, there  is no uniform sameness "African".  My neighbors from the Cameroons, do not look like Masai from the eastern part of Africa nor are Zulus indistinguishable from, say, Ethiopians.  Sorry, one of my little bug-bears along with "There is no such thing as "American Indian" but many different tribes and cultures and customs.  But I digress.)

As for the rest of the Mary Magdalene/Holy Bloodlines/Templars and all sort of tripe that Dan Brown parlayed into a best seller.  This is all flat out speculation and assertions. 

Ebor
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« Reply #53 on: June 18, 2005, 12:54:46 AM »

Sin_Vladimirov,

If I had an emoticon with applause, it would be here right now.  I salute you. 

 Smiley

Ebor
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« Reply #54 on: June 18, 2005, 03:25:20 AM »

Ebor, haven't you even heard of the Black Madonna of Poland? That is probably the most famous statue of the Black Madonna, if I am not mistaken. Pope John Paul II venerated it rather openly but perhaps you missed it.
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« Reply #55 on: June 18, 2005, 07:20:24 AM »

Matthew, Ebor spoke of the "Black Madonna of Poland" (although no Poles actually call it that - at least IME).  She called the icon by the proper title of Czestochowa (and the Lady of Jasna Gora is also widely used).  The problem the internet brings is that people think they can google a few key terms, spend five minutes reading some webpages and suddenly they are experts on a subject.  The internet is great for gaining familarity with many broad subjects, but not to become an expert in five minutes. 

As an aside I am quite familar with the icon in question and have a print of it in my icon corner.  Because of that many of the Poles in my family have decided Orthodoxy must be OK if we still venerate the Lady of Jasna Gora.  And I find the political agenda you are trying to "prove" through this icon to be quite odious. 
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« Reply #56 on: June 18, 2005, 07:44:28 AM »

Serbian Patriot,
This is illogical.ÂÂ  You're also going into dangerous grounds mixing "genetics" with national and cultural identity; the three are very distinct, and no shortage of misery have been caused in the last century by the confusion of the three.
The Serbian nation is genetically different to other nations, whether you like it or not.  Just as the Greek, or German nation is genetically different.  I agree when it comes to america, since it is a mish mash of different immigrants, the notion of a genetically, spiritually, culturally united nation goes out of the window.  Thank God I wasn't born in that God-forsaken country, one of the main battle fronts in the eradication of Christianity.

As for your passport being meaningless, shame on you.ÂÂ  People like you are precisely what makes the natives of a given land feel angry and betrayed.
ÂÂ
A passport is not indicative of nationality, how hard is that to understand.  I don't care who feels angry or betrayed by my statement.  It is only a drop in the ocean to the anger and betrayal that i feel at the destruction that this country has instigated on not just my own but other countries.  Anger at disrespect for a piece of plastic pales into insignificance compared to this physical destruction of entire nations.


It's the height of ingratitude and snobbery.ÂÂ  Unlike you, I was not even born in my country of citizenship - but I was raised here, and for better and for worse, I've lived with these people (Canadians) most of my life, and their fate is mine.
Tell me what do I have to be grateful to them for??  You do not know my personal history otherwise you would not be saying that.  And no their fate is not mine. This nation can no longer be considered Christian, 1-2% of people go to church.  It is a country much like yours, one of moral degenerates.  It is being guided to its own doom and destruction by the rulers.  I would be an idiot if i wanted to share in this fate.

No you're not.ÂÂ  You have Serbian ancestors, and are part of a diaspora Serbian ethnic community

I can fully understand how you came up with such a notion, given that you come from a melting pot, secular, liberal country with no defined nation. ÂÂ

(precisely because it kindly tolerates and even ecourages people to bring their "old ways" with them.)
Absolutely disgusting.
The indiginous people of this country do no encourage immigration, (i fully commend and support this stance), it is the rulers who have sold them down the river that do.  This country has more people attending mosques than churches.  Is this the kind of tolerance you recommend? ÂÂ
It would however be much more positive on the side of these demonic rulers, if they had as much toleration for sovereign countries as they did for suicidal immigration.  That would be a type of tolerance i could appreciate!
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« Reply #57 on: June 18, 2005, 08:22:45 AM »

Augustine,

I will take issue with you for saying he is not a Serb.ÂÂ  That's ridiculous.ÂÂ  Who gave you the ethnic picker stick?

Did you bother to ask WHY he was in England?ÂÂ  It could very well be that he was taken there as a temporary refugee.ÂÂ  We have those at our church.ÂÂ  They didn't want to come here but the U.S. agreed to take some since they were bombing Serbian homes.ÂÂ  I need to point out that I don't recognize the difference between a U.S. soldier blowing up a house or an MPRI employee hired by the White House blowing up a house.ÂÂ  Either way, the U.S. government is responsible.

I don't know his history, so I'm not passing judgment.
Serbian Patriot,

I hope you've got a good story to cover the claim that you should have no loyalties to Britain.ÂÂ  Well, other than the fact that they are pompous imperalists bent on the oppression of certain peoples. Grin

Tongue in cheek, ladies, tongue in cheek.
The fact that they are imperialists bent on the oppression of certain peoples is reason enough.  I would be a complete cretin to feel allegiance to this war-mongering elite that rule this country. 
However my personal history gives me even more reason to take the stance i have.  In the last century my nation has undergone more suffering and wars than in any century previous to that.  My ancestors had withstood the ottoman occupation, the balkan wars, the 1st and 2nd world wars.  Throughout all these hardships none of my ancestors had left their country.  It is as a result of a gross betrayal, whose responsibility lays almost entirely with the elite running Britain, that my family was forced to leave.  Serbia had an option to stay neutral during the 2nd ww and indeed signed a pact proclaiming her neutrality.  Since this did not suit the interests of the elite running Britain, they instigated a coup and the resulting government entered the pointless war on the side of the allies, just as the 2 anti-Christian empires of Germany and Soviet Russia were about to clash.  Our country was overrun with breathtaking ease in just 6 weeks.  The revenge exacted by the Germans was horrific, but this paled into insignificance compared to the genocide we suffered at the hands of Croatia.  In the mean time our 'allies' switched their support from the nationalist resistance forces to the communist ones.  This resulted in the communists coming to power.  In the 40 years they attempted to eradicate Christianity, and our 'allies' the British stood by and watched.  The Queen, the head of a nominally Christian church was indifferent.  Come the nineties, and our 'allies' were no longer content with leaving us at the mercy of other evil doers, they decided to personally attack us.  However I stray from my families personal history.  My grandfathers fought the communists with the nationalist resistance.  When the communists won, the surviving anti-communist units withdrew to Italy.  Hence my family would never have left our homeland if it had not been for this betrayal.  Can i really be grateful that my family was accepted into England?? Its like beating someone over the head with a hammer, and expecting them to be grateful when you drive them to hospital.  Subsequent events in the nineties, and the degeneration of western society since the 2nd ww show that these are not just isolated events.  God knows i am not harbouring some irrational paranoia, but these things have not happened by accident.  And the blame lies at the hands of the globalist elite, which i will not go in to.  And not only will i never feel loyalty to them or any society they subjugate, but i pray for their utter destruction. 
I have explained this all rather clumsily, but i do not have time to write entire essays on the internet in support of my ideological position.  I fight my ideological battles in real life.
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« Reply #58 on: June 18, 2005, 08:29:03 AM »

Do you honestly think someone born in that area at that time looked like a Norwegian? I highly doubt it.
I never said Jesus looked nordic, yet alone Norwegian.  I have problems with non-Orthodox pictures that portray Jesus in any fanciful way the artist decides.  Do you really believe that Jesus was a black man of west african extraction with dreadlocks and a muscular upper body, intent on showing it off by going around topless?HuhHuhHuh
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« Reply #59 on: June 18, 2005, 08:49:51 AM »

I am sorry brother Serbian P. feels that way.

SOC in Australia prayes for HRH Elizabeth II, which whom I do respect as my Monarch. I was a soldier of the Royal Australian Infantry Corps for 6 years. I was not even born in Australia.
How sad that you swear allegiance to this pathetic puppet.  When she was forced to give up her rights as absolute ruler, she also gave up her ability to defend the Church which she is head of.  She is now nothing more than a tourist attraction.  The Church of England is in utter dissaray, and is almost complicit in its own destruction.  The following article provides an example of what routinely happens in England.  Only local priests can be relied upon to stand in the way, the higher echelons of the CofE have sold out.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/4073480.stm

For Gods sake think! How can you have allegiance to governments that are fundamentally un-Christian.  They sanction the killing of babies in their mothers wombs, they bomb Christian countries, they actively undermine Christianity and Christian values in society, they promote degenerates and fill our media slots with them, they make no attempts to stamp out drugs or pornography. I could go on, but do i really need to?  Just ask yourself is it Christian to support all this.  I still live within the bounds of the law, but i am deluded enough to feel any loyalty, yet alone respect.



So, each to their own, I can not agree with BEING IN SOME PLACE and NOT RESPECTING IT. That is such a sectarian attitude. For if you do not respect what God gave you today, you will never respect what He will give you tommorow.
Since when does God expect me to respect this society, I would argue that he expects me to resist it.

But, that is me. I for one love the little flag (under my nick) and there is no man alive that can tell me that is a bad thing and makes me any less Serb or that being Serb makes me any less Australian.
It is a sign of your mental and emotional subjugation to what Australia stand for.

So, if you excuse me, each to their own. I for one, can not agree with hating what God gave you today being good or bad.
Forgive me.
I am very happy with what God has given my in my life, but by what perverted logic does that mean i must support corrupt governments??
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« Reply #60 on: June 18, 2005, 09:42:08 AM »

Brother you can say whatever you think. I will not argue with another Serb in public no matter how wrong I might think he is.
You are welcome to say whatever you wish.

God bless you.
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« Reply #61 on: June 18, 2005, 09:54:40 AM »

Ebor, haven't you even heard of the Black Madonna of Poland? That is probably the most famous statue of the Black Madonna, if I am not mistaken. Pope John Paul II venerated it rather openly but perhaps you missed it.

Yes I have, and I used the correct name for that icon, as Siluon wrote. 

Ebor
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« Reply #62 on: June 18, 2005, 10:10:18 AM »

The problem the internet brings is that people think they can google a few key terms, spend five minutes reading some webpages and suddenly they are experts on a subject.ÂÂ  The internet is great for gaining familarity with many broad subjects, but not to become an expert in five minutes.ÂÂ  

True.ÂÂ  Just because something is on a website doesn't mean that it's reliable or necessarily true.ÂÂ  It takes thought and discernment to tell if information is fact or opinion, good or bad.ÂÂ  Questions should be asked like "Whose website is this?" (I'll take a collection of information from a university site over some random poster without back up information).ÂÂ  "Why are they putting this info/page up?"ÂÂ  ("do I hear axes grinding in the distance?"ÂÂ  Is there an agenda?)ÂÂ  "Is there documentaion? What are the sources? Are there countering views or ideas?"ÂÂ  

That is why, as an example, information from New Advent and documentation and citatations to sources like the Bodleian Liibrary in Oxford regarding a "Deathbed Prophecy of St. Edward the Confessor" are reliable and may be taken seriously where one that is markedly different in wording, without any citations on a site of a splinter group should not.ÂÂ  (that was in another thread in this forum.)ÂÂ  

For some, knowledge from the Net is like the saying of the Platte River in Nebraska "A mile wide and an inch deep".
http://www.nebraskastudies.org/0400/frameset_reset.html?http://www.nebraskastudies.org/0400/stories/0401_0142.html

 Grin

Ebor
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« Reply #63 on: June 18, 2005, 12:16:17 PM »

The whole discussion here about loyalties is polluted by ignorance and a failure to make proper distinctions between "genetics" (which is actually irrelevent), "governments" and "nations."

Suffice it to say, I think "Serbian Patriot" should get on the next air plain out of England - put up or shut up.  Ingratitude in all of it's forms, is a pet-peeve of mine.  Nothing irritates me more when immigrants (or worse yet, people born there who are not immigrants at all, but natives!  Such absurdity!) have seditious loyalties to other lands, and utterly do not comprehend that the grass is not greener over there.  Obviously, there was something not-so-wonderful about what has become of Serbia, if there are so many Serbs in the diaspora (England, Canada, United States, etc.)

Have the courage of your convictions, or quit annoying people with their open expression.

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« Reply #64 on: June 18, 2005, 12:40:29 PM »

The whole discussion here about loyalties is polluted by ignorance and a failure to make proper distinctions between "genetics" (which is actually irrelevent), "governments" and "nations."
It is you who is not making proper distinctions, but trying to morph them all together into some kind of wish-washy airy-fairy view.  Genetics may be irrelvant to you, but that doesn't stop it existing.  It is part of what makes up the national identity of a nation.

Suffice it to say, I think "Serbian Patriot" should get on the next air plain out of England - put up or shut up.ÂÂ  Ingratitude in all of it's forms, is a pet-peeve of mine.ÂÂ
Gratitude?Huh?  You really are extremely ignorant.  I have stated my personal history and details, please enlighten at to what i am supposed to grateful for.

Nothing irritates me more when immigrants (or worse yet, people born there who are not immigrants at all, but natives!ÂÂ  (Such absurdity!)
Being born in a foreign land doesn't make me a native.  Natives are the indiginous population.  I understand you find it hard to understand that concept since you live in a america.

have seditious loyalties to other lands, and utterly do not comprehend that the grass is not greener over there.ÂÂ  Obviously, there was something not-so-wonderful about what has become of Serbia, if there are so many Serbs in the diaspora (England, Canada, United States, etc.)
!)
1.  I do not have any loyalties to the present 'democratic' government.  They are complete western loving sellouts, who at times try to play the patriotic card, all the while selling our country down the river.
2.  Being a patriot does not mean that everything is better in your own country.  I never said the grass was greener over there, though it is in some respects and not in others, but i am a Serb for better or for worse.  That doesn't change depending on economic situations.
3. I am not a recent economic migrant, my family was forced out 3 generations ago.  I cannot answer for those that have left recently.



Have the courage of your convictions, or quit annoying people with their open expression.
I have the courage of my own convictions, and i am defending them here, too bad if that annoys you.  I guess that makes you the intolerant one.
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« Reply #65 on: June 18, 2005, 03:11:43 PM »

I loved living in Blighty under Maggie's leadership.  But when I went back  a year ago - it was as bad as the People's Republic of WA.  Pity. But we yearn for another Kingdom. Love living in the beautiful Pacific NorthWest, beats Manchester everytime.  The natives are friendly, there's plenty of wildlife., the climate is temperate...  The suffering of the Serbian people is probably indictative of the holiness of its current saints, hidden but active.  May Orthodoxy continue to flourish among this brave people!
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« Reply #66 on: June 18, 2005, 05:03:39 PM »

For Gods sake think! How can you have allegiance to governments that are fundamentally un-Christian.ÂÂ  They sanction the killing of babies in their mothers wombs, they bomb Christian countries, they actively undermine Christianity and Christian values in society, they promote degenerates and fill our media slots with them, they make no attempts to stamp out drugs or pornography. I could go on, but do i really need to?ÂÂ  Just ask yourself is it Christian to support all this.ÂÂ  I still live within the bounds of the law, but i am deluded enough to feel any loyalty, yet alone respect.

 At least these governments did not sanction the murder of hundreds of civilians in the name of a rabid, whacked Nationalism.  If that is what a "Christian" nation is, I am glad I live in the US even though it supposedly has been "sold down the river" by all those "liberals" Smiley
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« Reply #67 on: June 18, 2005, 06:03:04 PM »

And I find the political agenda you are trying to "prove" through this icon to be quite odious. 

I have not tried to bring a political agenda to this discussion. I find this to be an interesting topic that however is not especially important.
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« Reply #68 on: June 18, 2005, 06:23:39 PM »

Brother you can say whatever you think. I will not argue with another Serb in public no matter how wrong I might think he is.
You are welcome to say whatever you wish.

God bless you.

So would it have been wrong for a German to argue with Hitler in public since presumably you are saying people of ethnic group X should stick together with other people from ethnic group X?  Tongue

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« Reply #69 on: June 18, 2005, 07:13:35 PM »

So would it have been wrong for a German to argue with Hitler in public since presumably you are saying people of ethnic group X should stick together with other people from ethnic group X? Tongue

Anastasios

I am truly sorry you see it THAT way.

Although having been put that way I do see that any my explanation will be taken with outmost ammount of prejudice.

Thank you for comparison with Hitler.

Very nice indeed.

Good bye.
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« Reply #70 on: June 18, 2005, 07:13:56 PM »

At least these governments did not sanction the murder of hundreds of civilians in the name of a rabid, whacked Nationalism.
 If that is what a "Christian" nation is, I am glad I live in the US even though it supposedly has been "sold down the river" by all those "liberals" Smiley
These governments sanctioned the murder of MILLIONS not hundreds.  I don't know what country you are alluding to when you say a Christian nation murdered hundreds in the name of rabid nationalism.  If it is Serbia you are an extremely intellectually deficient individual.  After all the faults i listed of your government, how you can say that you are glad to live there as a Christian is a mystery to me. ÂÂ
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« Reply #71 on: June 18, 2005, 07:18:17 PM »

Quote
and utterly do not comprehend that the grass is not greener over there.  Obviously, there was something not-so-wonderful about what has become of Serbia, if there are so many Serbs in the diaspora (England, Canada, United States, etc.)

Okay.  I don't agree with SP's approach, but this is like a white person telling Rosa Parks, after telling her to go to the back of the bus, that she shouldn't be upset to be forced to the back of the bus since it's safer for her back there.  It's stupid because the reason it's not safe for her in the front is because *they made it unsafe for her to be in the front.*  Do you have any idea what Churchill's decision to sell Yugoslavia to the devil did to all the people in Yugoslavia?  You could at least listen to what SP is saying and try to understand where he is coming from.

I admit that I have libertarian leanings.  If SP doesn't feel loyal to the UK because of what they did to Yugoslavia, then it's his choice.  If he is a citizen of the UK, pays his taxes and abides by their laws, then they'll let him stay.  Why should they kick him out?  Because he has unpopular ideas?  Great!
 

SP,

I think your discussion on genetics is misplaced.  It has nothing to do with genes and everything to do with ethnic and national identity, and the FREEDOM to see yourself as not being a national or ethnic member of your nation of citizenship.  I personally think you need to learn to forgive and that Patriarch Pavle has worked very hard to show us how we should forgive those who are even now burning our churches.  I'm not even an ethnic Serb, but I am Serbian Orthodox. 

My genetic family didn't build those churches in Kosovo, but the people who brought me my church and much of my Faith were persecuted and martyred there.  It makes me absolutely furious to see our churches burning in Kosovo and I have every desire to see those  suffer who burn our churches and murder the Serbian people and destroy your ethnic history and wipe out the history of our spiritual forefathers. 

But our patriarch tells us to follow something greater than the Muslims, pagans and communists.  He calls us to follow Christ and to forgive and pray for our enemies.  I don't want to pray for them.  Honestly, I'd rather see them burn in hell.  But if I do that, then I'm no better than them. 

There is a famous Lakota writer who was talking about Wounded Knee.  He was sitting on a mountain on a reservation thinking about the poverty he lives in, the land stolen by the whites in the town, how his people are treated when they leave the reservation, the alcoholism and dispare in the reservation and how his people were more noble and how they deserved more.  He became more and more angry until he realized he had one of three choices:  go down off the mountain with his gun and kill every white person he encountered until he was killed, allow the hate to eat him alive, or forgive and learn to make his life better the way things are.  He chose the last option and he's helped a lot more of his people through forgiveness than he ever could have through hate.

Forgive the Brits, pray for the country you live in, and thank God for the safety and freedom you have to hold your views.
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« Reply #72 on: June 19, 2005, 06:25:30 PM »

I only started this thread because of how others mentioned my avatar. I just think it is a cool picture, which is actually a poster that I am considering to put up in my room.
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« Reply #73 on: June 20, 2005, 04:56:25 PM »

Hey SP:

Not being a DP, you have about as much connection to the stari kraj as both me and my wife.ÂÂ  My wife's Djed fought with Draza and Momcilo Djujic, yet he was always proud of his American citizenship.  You are a posturing kid- a punk.ÂÂ  Does emphasizing your Serbianness makes you feel special at school?ÂÂ  A standout in a crowd of pasty Brits?ÂÂ  (You are different and special, a proud warrior of the Serbian race. Blah blah blah.)ÂÂ  You are a subject of the British Crown and judging from your prose, an ungrateful — although not necessarily adept- recipient of the gifts of her educational system.ÂÂ  

Quote
The Serbian nation is genetically different to other nations, whether you like it or not.ÂÂ  Just as the Greek, or German nation is genetically different.ÂÂ  I agree when it comes to america, since it is a mish mash of different immigrants, the notion of a genetically, spiritually, culturally united nation goes out of the window.ÂÂ  Thank God I wasn't born in that God-forsaken country, one of the main battle fronts in the eradication of Christianity.

Serbs are Slavs and are genetically no different from other Slavs.ÂÂ  

How about you move back to the Selo, brale.ÂÂ  Don’t you have some sheep to herd?ÂÂ  Or if you prefer, you can be unemployed and bitter, hanging out in Kafane with your cell phone and big gold necklace.ÂÂ  

Budala.
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« Reply #74 on: June 20, 2005, 05:41:27 PM »

It is you who is not making proper distinctions, but trying to morph them all together into some kind of wish-washy airy-fairy view.  Genetics may be irrelvant to you, but that doesn't stop it existing.  It is part of what makes up the national identity of a nation.
Gratitude?Huh?  You really are extremely ignorant.  I have stated my personal history and details, please enlighten at to what i am supposed to grateful for.
Being born in a foreign land doesn't make me a native.  Natives are the indiginous population.  I understand you find it hard to understand that concept since you live in a america.
1.  I do not have any loyalties to the present 'democratic' government.  They are complete western loving sellouts, who at times try to play the patriotic card, all the while selling our country down the river.
2.  Being a patriot does not mean that everything is better in your own country.  I never said the grass was greener over there, though it is in some respects and not in others, but i am a Serb for better or for worse.  That doesn't change depending on economic situations.
3. I am not a recent economic migrant, my family was forced out 3 generations ago.  I cannot answer for those that have left recently.

I have the courage of my own convictions, and i am defending them here, too bad if that annoys you.  I guess that makes you the intolerant one.

You speak Djubre. A third generation upper middle class brat claiming his ethnic heritage. *yawn*  Roll Eyes I would love to drop you off in the middle of the former Yugoslavia and watch you survive. Maybe I'll call NBC and have it made into a reality show.



Edited for error.






« Last Edit: June 20, 2005, 05:53:05 PM by PhosZoe » Logged
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« Reply #75 on: June 20, 2005, 06:09:17 PM »

This has got to be the most ridiculous thread I have ever seen.

The Lord Jesus was of the seed of David, a Jew.  A Jew rejected and murdered by His own people.

Put two and two together.  What are the chances?
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« Reply #76 on: June 21, 2005, 12:26:58 AM »

By being the child of the Virgin Mary, Jesus was at least half Jewish. But what about the DNA created by the Father? Think about that.
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« Reply #77 on: June 21, 2005, 12:31:51 AM »

Why half Jewish?  Why not say that Christ took all His genetic material from His mother, therefore making Him entirely Jewish.  Or is it because, in normal sexual reproduction, half a person's genetic make-up comes from their father and the other half from their mother?  Well, clearly there is nothing "normal" about the Incarnation wouldn't you agree?

Prayers please.
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« Reply #78 on: June 21, 2005, 12:45:40 AM »

Quote
Why not say that Christ took all His genetic material from His mother, therefore making Him entirely Jewish.

Because then either Christ would be female or the Theotokos would have had Klinefelter syndrome, in which case she would have been a very feminized man, not a woman.
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« Reply #79 on: June 21, 2005, 12:54:22 AM »

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Because then either Christ would be female

Actually, you can be fully male with two X chormosomes, but I don't know if you'd be able to reproduce.
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« Reply #80 on: June 21, 2005, 01:05:20 AM »

lol, if there's one thing i've learned tonight, it's that i have got to be very very careful with the words i use and how i phrase my sentences.  A good eye-opening experience.  Grin
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« Reply #81 on: June 21, 2005, 02:41:20 AM »

Just look at the genealogies in the Holy Scriptures -Jesus' lineage is within the nation of Israel -the Jews. He was'nt what some people would call white -and he was'nt black. He was semetic descended from the line of Shem (refer to the table of nations in Genesis). It would not worry me what colour he was -but i think historical accuracy is important. Take the Flamish religious art of the late medieval period and you find pale pink cheeked blonde haired Christ-child, people can tend to impose their unconscious stereotypes on sacred subjects. The Theotokos was a Jewish virgin.
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« Reply #82 on: June 21, 2005, 03:03:26 AM »

This has got to be the most ridiculous thread I have ever seen.



OOOO YES! Very true. I can not think of the more ludicrious "theological" presumption. Off all thing that we can talk about, here is tried to be proven that Christ was black.
Yes, he was black but not just black, he was a female too, and not just female but a german female.





Lord, please come and finish with this.
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« Reply #83 on: June 21, 2005, 05:09:38 AM »

Given how the Jews religiously guarded their "bloodline," I doubt that Jesus would be black with dreads. I've never seen a Black Jew, but I've seen Jews that look like Arabs.

"Afroasiatic." What a broad description. I don't really see what's so hard.  He was Jewish, so he looked Jewish. If he were black, he would not be considered as fully Jewish, and wouldn't be allowed to speak in the synagogue as he did sundry times in the gospel. He wasn't white, he wasn't black; he was middle-eastern, duh!  Wink


How does a Jew look like? The Jew you might have in mind is a European Jew which is a descendant of White European converts! We don't know how the original Jews looked like, but they weren't blond and blue eyed, that's for sure!

You've never seen black Jews? There are Jews in Ethiopia which have followed their religion since more than 2000 years! (The legend says 3000 years)
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« Reply #84 on: June 21, 2005, 05:12:06 AM »


OOOO YES! Very true. I can not think of the more ludicrious "theological" presumption. Off all thing that we can talk about, here is tried to be proven that Christ was black.
Yes, he was black but not just black, he was a female too, and not just female but a german female.





Lord, please come and finish with this.
Why is it okay to depict Jesus as a white man with blue eyes but not as a man of color!
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« Reply #85 on: June 21, 2005, 05:44:50 AM »

Why is it okay to depict Jesus as a white man with blue eyes but not as a man of color!

If you read the whole post, you will find my thought on this question.


It does seem to me, that here we are talking about Orthodox Iconography.




Why is it okay to depict Lord as a white man with blues eyes?
Who told you that it is okay?
I think you mistaken what Church thinks about this with any of thousands American Sects or modern Roman Catholic "Icons"; or even, maybe with that movie Dogma, with 'Buddy Jesus"...

Not man of color?
Lord was cerainly "darker" as most Jews are , that part of the world is not know to have many "Sweedish looking fellows".

But should it then be presented lika a black man with afro.

Again, I am talking about Orthodox Church.

Jews in Ethiopia, so, there are blond jews in USA, what does that have to do with Palestine?





I for one do not care how anyone outside see Him, their vision is just not clear.
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« Reply #86 on: June 21, 2005, 06:07:47 AM »

If you read the whole post, you will find my thought on this question.


It does seem to me, that here we are talking about Orthodox Iconography.
Yes, and of the general picture we have of Jesus.



Quote
Why is it okay to depict Lord as a white man with blues eyes?
Who told you that it is okay?
I think you mistaken what Church thinks about this with any of thousands American Sects or modern Roman Catholic "Icons"; or even, maybe with that movie Dogma, with 'Buddy Jesus"...
No one said it, but you see it in thousands of churches worldwide and im millions of homes... so it must be okay... especially as no one seems to question that blue-eyed and white Jesus and Mary.

Quote
Not man of color?
Lord was cerainly "darker" as most Jews are, that part of the world is now know to have many "Sweedish looking fellows".
Smiley Yes...

Quote
But should it then be presented lika a black man with afro, looking like a dude from Black-eyed peas, saying things like Yo nigger, sup dude, ya know wat am sayin'.


Again, I am talking about Orthodox Church.
Now I find this comment to be very offensive.. What has being black to do with saying "Yo nigger"? It's really sad that you seem to have this picture of black people.
I don't guess that the following priest would say anything like that:

and I also don't think that the following painting of Jesus implies any "Gangsta Nigga" thing:
http://www.prairienet.org/~dxmoges/lastsupper.jpg
The same goes for the following depiction of the theotokos:


I know, it doesnt' matter what color the Saviour of the World had, but if it really doesn't matter, then why not black? Wink
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« Reply #87 on: June 21, 2005, 06:09:20 AM »

why are the pics not working?
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« Reply #88 on: June 21, 2005, 06:27:14 AM »

Yes, and of the general picture we have of Jesus.
Who is WE? I do not know anyone who sees the Lord differently than I. I have never met or heard of anyone (until 777) that is questioning the way Church sees (and represent)  the Lord.


No one said it, but you see it in thousands of churches worldwide and im millions of homes... so it must be okay... especially as no one seems to question that blue-eyed and white Jesus and Mary.
I don't. I never seen Lord or Theotokos as blue eyed or white. Even when I was 7th Day Adventist in Serbia, all the pictures of them were showing them "darker"


I should think next time I open my piehole. Please forgive.


I know, it doesnt' matter what color the Saviour of the World had, but if it really doesn't matter, then why not black? Wink
I really do not care how anyone outside of the Orthodox Church presents the Lord. All of them are wrong, given that they do not have the fullnes of Tradition (look of the Lord, as presented in Iconography being a part of the Tradition). So, again, I will not go arround telling people that they are wrong. But at the same time, when someone comes to Orthodox Forum and insists that Lord was black, when the Church does not present Him that way[/b], but as rather Jewish from Palestine looking person, I do not see anything wrong with arguing the case. No Orthodox said that He was White with Blue eyes and that His name was really Swen and that He came from Gotenborg instead of Nazareth. But please, same way, His name is not N'glumba and He is not from Harare.

See my point?

If you are not an Orthodox, brother,  you can make Him to be pink with yellow spots for all I care. All I am saying is what THE CHURCH teaches. And on this forum, we tend to stick to what the Church says... thats why we are Orthodox.

Again, I really do not wish to be offensive.


If it is, I will delete my posts, that is not hard.

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« Reply #89 on: June 21, 2005, 06:49:47 AM »

Yes, and of the general picture we have of Jesus.
Who is WE? I do not know anyone who sees the Lord differently than I. I have never met or heard of anyone (until 777) that is questioning the way Church sees (and represent)  the Lord.
Yes that's exactly what I meant... We... all of us. I also never questioned it until it was pointed out to me.


Quote
No one said it, but you see it in thousands of churches worldwide and im millions of homes... so it must be okay... especially as no one seems to question that blue-eyed and white Jesus and Mary.
I don't. I never seen Lord or Theotokos as blue eyed or white. Even when I was 7th Day Adventist in Serbia, all the pictures of them were showing them "darker"
Really? hmm.. Well I've seen a lot of Icons with a blond and blue-eyed Jesus and Mary. In Ethiopian many Ethiopian churches and homes there is this one, I guess Russian icon ( http://www.ethiopianorthodoxchurch.org/images/mariam_2.jpg ) where both are blue eyed and Jesus is blond.


Quote
Now I find this comment to be very offensive.. What has being black to do with saying "Yo nigger"? It's really sad that you seem to have this picture of black people.
Brother, I really did not mean it to be offensive. I have watched doco on Mtv couple of days ago about Black eyed peas, that why I think that picture that M777 posted looked like a guy from BEP, and he did say those things atleast 20 times in 15 minutes. Now why it is not offensive for him to say it, and it is offensive for me to use those words when saying that the picture reminds me that guy?
Okay, it isn't offensive of you to say this in connection with the black eyed peas guy... but not with a Jesus depicted as a black man with dreads or an Afro! Jesus is Jesus, nothing changes if he's depicted like that! And well I guess that there are more than enough stupid people with blond hair and blue eyes I could make a connection with... I hope you know what I mean.


Quote
I know, it doesnt' matter what color the Saviour of the World had, but if it really doesn't matter, then why not black? Wink
I really do not care how anyone outside of the Orthodox Church presents the Lord. All of them are wrong, given that they do not have the fullnes of Tradition (look of the Lord, as presented in Iconography being a part of the Tradition). So, again, I will not go arround telling people that they are wrong. But at the same time, when someone comes to Orthodox Forum and insists that Lord was black, when the Church does not present Him that way, but rather Jewish from Palestine looking person, I do not see anything wrong with arguing the case. No, Orthodox said that He was White with Blue eyes and that His name was really Swen and that He came from Gotenborg instead of Nazareth. But please, same way, His name is not N'glumba and He is not from Harare.
Yes, this is absolutely true... but even in Orthodox tradition there are different ways of portraying our Lord and Saviour and his Blessed Mother. look at http://www.jerusalem-gifts.com/index.html?target=Orthodox_Russian_GiftsWood_Icons.html for example. On some of them Jesus is blond. So the tradition doesn't seem to say anything about the colour of Jesus and Mary (be it eye, hair or skin color)... does it? Well maybe it's different in the different orthodox churches...

Quote
See my point?

If you are not an Orthodox, brother,  you He can make Him to be pink with yellow spots for all I care. All I am saying is what THE CHURCH teaches. And on this forum, we tend to stick to what the Church says... thats why we are Orthodox.
Yes I see your point. I am not saying "change all the depictions of Jesus to black"... I'm just saying that if he can be depicted as blond and blue eyed, which is historically incorrect if Jesus looked as all the other people around him, then why isn't it okay to depict him black. The church doesn't seem to have a teaching on that, does it?
And yes, I guess I'm Orthodox (although I don't know very much about my religion... I want to learn and that's why I'm here...)  Wink
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