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Author Topic: Fear of a Black Jesus  (Read 11553 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: June 16, 2005, 03:10:38 PM »

(The title of this thread is an allusion to Public Enemy's album, Fear of a Black Planet.)

Since I've changed my avatar to a black, dreadlocked Jesus, some have inquired as to whether or not I believe Jesus to have been a man of color. From what I have read, this is a considerable possibility. Firstly, in the oldest artistic depictions of the Madonna and child, they are both of black skin.

The African American Biblical Scholar Cain Hope Felder makes the case that we should see the Middle East of Jesus' day as a kind of eastern extension of Africa, using archaeological and linguistic evidence to demonstrate the interaction between these peoples in these regions.
Jesus' general ancestry could also give evidence that he was a black man. A key element in the narrative of the Hebrew Bible is the Hebrews' move to, sojourn in and liberation from Egypt. Felder claims that they were a mixed race of Afro-Asiatics. Moses had a Cushite, or Ethiopian wife (Num.12:1); a son of Aaron, the one who begot the priestly line, was Phinehas (Ex.6:25), which in Egyptian means "the Nubian", referring to the area of Sudan or Ethiopia (Jer.38:7).
In Matthew's genealogy of Jesus, four Afroasiatic women are mentioned; Rahab. Tamar, Ruth and Bathsheba. (Matt. 1.2-17)
In both Christian and non-Christian texts, Jesus is placed in Egypt during his formative years.

"If the truth be insisted upon, the family stock of Jesus himself was none other than Afroasiatic. His parents probably resembled the typical darker Palestinian, Egyptian or Yemenite of today; many African-Americans would have similar features . . . It may not be going too far to suggest that the "Sweet Lil' Jesus Boy" of the Negro Spiritual is probably most accurately described as an Afro-Asiatic or "a person of color." While the Negro spiritual intones: "We didn't know who you was," it paradoxically reminds many modern Christians that what Jesus actually looked like may come as a surprise.
http://www.ntgateway.com/courses/jesus/colour.htm

In the New Testament, the only description of Jesus' skin color is given in Revelation 1:15 -
"His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters…"

If Jesus were a black man among a predominantly lighter skinned population, perhaps this would explain why His peers found no beauty in Him:
Isaiah 53:2 - "For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, [there is] no beauty that we should desire him."

The oldest depictions of Christ are not of the classic Mediterranean-looking figure of Byzantine iconography but as an adaptation of the Greek God, Apollo in the form of the Good Shepherd:


As for Jesus being black or not, I do not have a position considering that His skin color is not too important. However, I do find this to be a rather interesting topic.
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« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2005, 03:24:10 PM »

I'm afraid the Black Jesus will put the voodoo on me.

Actually you should say, "African-American" Jesus, since "negro" and "black" are not really currently acceptable.

Did you know that "doubting" St. Thomas was Hispanic?ÂÂ  

The other disciples didn't like him much because he was Mexican.ÂÂ  When Jesus came back and everyone was saying, "It's Jesus!"ÂÂ  St. Thomas was saying "Si!" but all the dumb anglo apostles thought he was wanting to SEE.ÂÂ  Jesus couldn't get them to shut up, because he was African-American and Anglos don't listen to them either, so he just acted like he showed St. Thomas so they could move on to the next topic.ÂÂ  We know he is Mexican because on the icons he's always wearing a sombrero and carrying tequila.
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« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2005, 03:32:17 PM »

In the New Testament, the only description of Jesus' skin color is given in Revelation 1:15 -
"His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters…"

So logically following your line of reasoning here, this must mean Jesus had a speech impediment. Did he talk like a little kid with his mouth full? How could people understand him if he talked like the "sound of many waters"? Maybe he drooled as little?
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« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2005, 03:34:21 PM »

No, TomS, geeze.  Don't be so sarcastic.  It should read "and his voice was like Barry White" although St. John had never even heard of Barry White so he wouldn't know.

If we can just step out of our literal minds for a minute . . .
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« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2005, 04:15:12 PM »

Given that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and fathered by God, then His DNA would have been either 100% or 50% specially created by God, which could have made Him of any skin color.
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« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2005, 04:19:12 PM »

Okay, I know this isn't an icon, but I found this painting of St. Thomas.  You can clearly see the sombrero and tequila in this depiction as well.  I'm not sure why he's balancing the tequila on the spear.  Maybe it's some sort of Western symbolism (drinking game?).

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« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2005, 04:59:21 PM »

Given how the Jews religiously guarded their "bloodline," I doubt that Jesus would be black with dreads. I've never seen a Black Jew, but I've seen Jews that look like Arabs.

Quote
"If the truth be insisted upon, the family stock of Jesus himself was none other than Afroasiatic.

"Afroasiatic." What a broad description. I don't really see what's so hard.  He was Jewish, so he looked Jewish. If he were black, he would not be considered as fully Jewish, and wouldn't be allowed to speak in the synagogue as he did sundry times in the gospel. He wasn't white, he wasn't black; he was middle-eastern, duh!  Wink

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« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2005, 05:41:01 PM »

Given how the Jews religiously guarded their "bloodline," I doubt that Jesus would be black with dreads. I've never seen a Black Jew, but I've seen Jews that look like Arabs.

"Afroasiatic." What a broad description. I don't really see what's so hard. He was Jewish, so he looked Jewish. If he were black, he would not be considered as fully Jewish, and wouldn't be allowed to speak in the synagogue as he did sundry times in the gospel. He wasn't white, he wasn't black; he was middle-eastern, duh! Wink

While I do not believe that the human nature of our Lord came from the Negroid or Capoid race (both Black) I am still intrigued when I read this verse

St.John 8:48
48The Jews answered him, "Aren't we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?"

From what I understand the Samaritans looked different than most Jews at this time due to mixing with Syrians and modern day Samaritans look exactly the same as Arabs. It is interesting that our Lord would be called a Samaritan it he looked exactly like the 'pure' Jews who lived around Jerusalem. I think that the Jews were actually slandering our Lord by saying that he is a Samaritan. Sort of like when white racists refer to another whiteman as no better than a ni**er. But still part of me wonders if there was something more.

To answer your question: Yes the black Jesus terrifies me, the same as an eskimo, or blond Nordic Jesus terrifies me.
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« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2005, 05:44:34 PM »

I am one of those that enquired about your avatar.  If your avatar is not an icon (which i do not believe it to be, not least because Jesus is muscular and topless), then I think you would agree that it is un-Orthodox.  What I am trying to say is that if Jesus, or a saint for that matter, is not depicted according to certain rules and knowledge, then that depiction is not Orthodox.  I was discussing this with an iconographer shortly after Easter and he made it clear to me that he was not allowed to depict saints or Jesus in any way that he wished, but that he must fast, pray and read about the lives of the relevant saint.  It is not a purely artistic pursuit.  He told me of the story of a painter that was hired to decorate a hospital wall in Serbia with the patron saints of the hospital.  He depicted 2 wise looking old men.  Imagine the embarrasment when he had finished when he was informed that these saints had been martyred in their early twenties. ÂÂ
The following quote came from this web page:
http://www.goholycross.org/studies/studies_icons.html

'icon painters are not free to adapt their own aesthetic sentiments, but the mind of the Church'

I notice also that you quote the opinions of a biblical scholar who i assume is not an Orthodox authority on the subject.  Furthermore even he is only guessing, dare i say maybe wishfully thinking, it is extremely far from proven fact.  You also quote an ambiguos bible verse.  Do you not think that if it had the meaning that you are taking from it, the rest of the Church would have known about it a long time ago.  Without trying to demean you in any way, I find this a common practice of protestants who each have their own interpretation and philosophy and are almost a mini-pope unto themselves.  Hence the mass of protestant sects which I am met with every day, each claiming to be the true one.  We must be guided by the teachings of the Holy Fathers, rather than creating our own rather innovative interpretations.
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« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2005, 05:46:03 PM »

What are the "Oldest artistic depictions"?  Depending on the materials used, the paints might have darkened over the centuries. Just a thought.

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« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2005, 05:47:35 PM »

Quote
I've never seen a Black Jew, but I've seen Jews that look like Arabs.

Behold: Beta Israel!

Here are some pictures.
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« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2005, 05:48:51 PM »

Actually you should say, "African-American" Jesus, since "negro" and "black" are not really currently acceptable.

Of course he would not have been an -America either since he did not reside in America unless you listen to the Mormons!  The first icons of Christ, by his own disciple do not show him black although some have darkened because of age. Descriptions given in writings do not describe him as very dark skinned either.
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« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2005, 05:50:36 PM »

TomS and Cizinec, I understand that your intent is light and humerous, but bear in mind that you refering to Our Lord and one of His apostles.
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« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2005, 05:51:32 PM »

There is no way I will use the stupid term African American, unless the person is born in Africa. Since when is black not acceptable? Most black people I know call Caucasians white, and even on forms I fill out to this day I see black and white. The most offensive for me was when a form said African American and underneath it, White.  What a double standard. On my wedding application to make a point I did not select white for race, I selected other and filled in European American. LOL
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« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2005, 05:58:03 PM »

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There is no way I will use the stupid term African American, unless the person is born in Africa. Since when is black not acceptable?

Because, properly speaking, there is a difference between black and African-American. A black person is anyone with black skin, whose ancestors come predominantly from sub-Saharan Africa. African-Americans are the descendants of black slaves who were imported to the United States, and are better considered an ethnic group than a race. They have their own dialect, music, food, customs, and folkways. African-American is a valid descriptor for them, just as Italian-American is a valid descriptor for my family's ethnic group, even though none of us were born in Italy.

African-Americans are black, but not all blacks are African-American, just as Italian-Americans are white, but not all whites are Italian-American.
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« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2005, 06:39:34 PM »

Just call me Anglo-Irish Canadian.  Wink
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« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2005, 08:27:16 PM »

Quote
To answer your question: Yes the black Jesus terrifies me, the same as an eskimo, or blond Nordic Jesus terrifies me.

It's the voodoo that scares me.

Quote
TomS and Cizinec, I understand that your intent is light and humerous, but bear in mind that you refering to Our Lord and one of His apostles.

I'm not mocking Our Lord or one of the apostles.  I'm being sarcastic about this subject.  Sometimes humor can say something a lot better than solemn, serious discourse. 

Let's all be wooden statues, shall we?

This is not an icon and does not express Orthodoxy.  bla bla bla.

I can't do that.

Our Lord wasn't a Rasta voodoo prince.  St. Thomas wasn't from Mexico.  Do you really think I'm mocking St. Thomas and not this thread?  You take this forum way more seriously than I do.

I've seen blonde icons from Russia and black icons from Ethiopia.  They are still Orthodox.  You want a bleck Christ?  Go get an Ethiopian icon.  Even those are lightish.
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« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2005, 09:59:13 PM »

If your avatar is not an icon (which i do not believe it to be, not least because Jesus is muscular and topless), then I think you would agree that it is un-Orthodox. 

As noted in my first post, the earliest depictions of the Madonna and child have a black Mary and black Jesus.
As for Jesus being muscular, I bet that a good carpenter like Him would be a little ripped.
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« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2005, 11:03:13 PM »

As noted in my first post, the earliest depictions of the Madonna and child have a black Mary and black Jesus.
As for Jesus being muscular, I bet that a good carpenter like Him would be a little ripped.

â€Â  Irini nem ehmot â€Â

Perhaps our Lord may have been muscular.  It is true that being a carpenter is phsycially demanding.  But I wonder sometimes.  Christ did fast a lot.  He often spoke about the importance of prayer and fasting, so as such, I'm sure He practiced what He preached.  So, He certainly may have been somewhat muscular, but I doubt He would have been "built" or "ripped".  Fasting tends to trim a person down.

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« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2005, 11:35:34 PM »

I personally like to think that he was scottish Kiss

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« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2005, 12:00:43 AM »

Quote
African-Americans are black, but not all blacks are African-American, just as Italian-Americans are white, but not all whites are Italian-American.

I don't know how much I'd go for that standard on African-Americans.  I have a white friend and she was born and lived in South Africa to S. African parents for ten years and is now an American citizen . . . She considers hereself an African-American  Smiley
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« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2005, 12:25:04 AM »

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I have a white friend and she was born and lived in South Africa to S. African parents for ten years and is now an American citizen . . . She considers hereself an African-American

She may consider herself one, but she's not. You're missing my point. African-Americans are an ethnic group, with their own ethnic dialect, foods, manners, and so forth. African-American doesn't mean someone who is from Africa, but someone who is the descendant of black Africans who were enslaved in the US prior to emancipation.

Jesse Jackson is an African-American. So is Bill Cosby, and Michael Jordan, and Condoleeza Rice, and the kid who lived down the street from me when I was growing up. Hakeem Olajuwon isn't an African-American, Colin Powell isn't an African-American (strictly speaking; his parents were Jamaican immigrants), and my Jewish co-worker from South Africa is not an African-American, and neither is your friend.
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« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2005, 12:32:47 AM »

As noted in my first post, the earliest depictions of the Madonna and child have a black Mary and black Jesus.
As for Jesus being muscular, I bet that a good carpenter like Him would be a little ripped.

And I will ask again: What are the depictions you refer to?  Might we please have some references?   What are the sources you have gotten this information from?

It is quite possible due to age or dirt or other things that the materials used in these depictions have darkened over time and were not "black" originally.

And as a side note disagreeing with a point is not the same as "fearing' it. I know you were referring to an album..but fear is not automatically present.

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« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2005, 12:35:34 AM »

Beayf,

My wife is a Slovak-American because she was born there. Her brother is not a Slovak-American because he was born here. He is an American of Slovak descent. I will only extend the hyphen to an immigrant.

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« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2005, 12:37:42 AM »

Oh no, I understand your point perfectly . . . I just happen to dissaggree with you.  Wink
Now, if you want to go by ethinic group, yes I do aggree there.  African Americans do have a distinct ethinicity that is quite different from other blacks.  So perhpas I did speak too soon and did misunderstand you.

However, my point (and please not that when I said that, a little sarcasim was involved) was how we as a nation define the race as African-American. Thus, my comment of my South African friend.  In other words, I'm merely aggreeing with the fact that it's silly to call blacks African-American as a race. 

BTW, do we have a  button so I can correct my pitiful spelling?
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« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2005, 01:23:31 AM »

Quote
My wife is a Slovak-American because she was born there. Her brother is not a Slovak-American because he was born here. He is an American of Slovak descent. I will only extend the hyphen to an immigrant.

Feel free, but just know you're going against the well-established usage of such ethnic groups as Irish-Americans, Italian-Americans, German-Americans, Polish-Americans, African-Americans, and so forth.

I'm also curious if birth is the sole criterion you use in determining whether to hyphenate or not. Would you classify my grandmother (other, non-Italian side of the family) as a German-American? She was born and raised in a German-speaking family in the Ozark mountains. Her family had been here for several generations, but still retained their German language and culture. Is the essence of being "American" simply citizenship? Were families like my grandmother's, or the populations living today in the southwestern border states who speak only Spanish and consider themselves part of a greater Mexico, "American", or were / are they Mexicans or Germans who simply happened to reside in America? If the latter, then how is it inaccurate to use the hyphenated "<ethnic group>-American" to describe one's ethnic culture? After all, in multi-national countries like Russia, groups like the Volga Germans are российский, but not русский. Why should America be any different?

The nucleus of historical culture has been those populations who came over here from Britain in one of the four great waves of migration; they are our equivalent to русский. As other ethnic groups have migrated, they have retained their own culture and identity to a greater or lesser degree; they may remain like the "российские", or be Americanized to a greater or lesser degree, or may even lose their distinct identity altogether and just consider themselves "American". If the former, why not refer to the non-American portion of their identity with a hyphen?
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« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2005, 01:46:47 AM »


As noted in my first post, the earliest depictions of the Madonna and child have a black Mary and black Jesus.


The earliest depictions of Mary and the child Jesus are indeed black, however what you fail to note is that the entirety of the icon is black because of age. Thus you are painting a false picture, if you will excuse the pun Grin

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« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2005, 01:51:08 AM »

Here is an Article I found on what the Antichrist will look like........
A potrait .....

http://www.geocities.com/kitezhgrad/prophets/sallman.html

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« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2005, 02:06:46 AM »

I have an Icon of a Lord. I imagine Him to be like He is presented in that Icon.
He is not blond with blues eyes as presented in USA protestant pictures (that I had of him when I was a SDA).
On that point, I think that he was darker as some Jews are.
Not African-american, not Jamaican or Eskimo. I dont think that he was blond either nor white for that matter nor he had stubbies, footy shorts and a slouch hat and said G'day mate. I dont think that he was a Serbian looking either nor Russian.

He was a ordinary looking Jew and there was no beauty in him (as Prophet Isaiah would say). I do believe that majority of Orthodox Icons have right way of presenting Him. It comes from those who have seen Him,  heard Him, and followed Him; just like the rest of our faith.

Now I really do not care what people through faith imagine Him to be.

He is my Lord and my God and no one in this universe is close to Him.
There is not a day that goes by that I find more and more reasons to Love Him and want to be with Him and those who followed him and still do.

I for one, will never judge an old lady from Bronx and tell her that her Jesus is not black if that is the way she sees Him. Nor will I judge some Johan Gustafsen from top of Sweeden for seing Him blond with blue eyes. Nor will I judge Protestants for seing Him the way they do.

I for one care for only one thing and that thing has nothing to do with the way that  our Salvation looks to ur souls  but with the way our souls look like to our Salvation.

Please forgive me.

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« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2005, 04:11:52 AM »

Matthew,

Just one brief point (and let me first say I agree that Christ's race is not an issue at all), but I noticed you brought up that tired issue of Egypt. The 'all the early Christians were black' brigade also usually bring this up in reference to St. Paul as he is supposed to have been mistaken for an Egyptian. I'd like to point out three things I always point out to them:

  • The ancient Egyptians were not negroid, as shown quite clearly by archaeological remains and their art. Negroids come from sub-Saharan Africa and though there were some in the Egyptian empire never made up a majority.
  • By the time of the early Church, Egypt had been ruled by the Ptolemaic dynasty for quite some time and was pretty hellenised. That means that their originally middle-eastern type population had been diluted by Greek European immigrants.
  • And finally, there was and had been for quite some time (hence the reason for the LXX) a large group of Greek-speaking diaspora Jews in Egypt. It seems almost certain, therefore, that not only would Christ have grown up amongst this group, but that St. Paul was probably mistaken for one of these Jews also (on account of his use of Greek, I imagine).

It should be fairly obvious, then, that Christ's connection to Egypt argues nothing for Christ being black and I'd argue that the wish to portray Him so is nothing more than misplaced racial pride at best and racism at worst (depending on the group involved - not trying to say anything about you Matthew). I'm not afraid of your black Christ picture, I just find it rather distastefully painted (and I'd say the same if He looked Germanic) and would rather see an icon. Feel free to disagree, though.

Cizinec,

I for one loved the humour and didn't think you were mocking Christ or St. Thomas. Some people need to get a sense of perspective (it reminds me of that foolish Christ never laughed thread). Keep up the good work and never, ever stop bringing us all back down to earth with a dose of sarcastic humour.

James
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« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2005, 05:59:18 AM »

Matthew,

Just one brief point (and let me first say I agree that Christ's race is not an issue at all), but I noticed you brought up that tired issue of Egypt. The 'all the early Christians were black' brigade also usually bring this up in reference to St. Paul as he is supposed to have been mistaken for an Egyptian. I'd like to point out three things I always point out to them:

  • The ancient Egyptians were not negroid, as shown quite clearly by archaeological remains and their art. Negroids come from sub-Saharan Africa and though there were some in the Egyptian empire never made up a majority.
  • By the time of the early Church, Egypt had been ruled by the Ptolemaic dynasty for quite some time and was pretty hellenised. That means that their originally middle-eastern type population had been diluted by Greek European immigrants.
  • And finally, there was and had been for quite some time (hence the reason for the LXX) a large group of Greek-speaking diaspora Jews in Egypt. It seems almost certain, therefore, that not only would Christ have grown up amongst this group, but that St. Paul was probably mistaken for one of these Jews also (on account of his use of Greek, I imagine).

It should be fairly obvious, then, that Christ's connection to Egypt argues nothing for Christ being black and I'd argue that the wish to portray Him so is nothing more than misplaced racial pride at best and racism at worst (depending on the group involved - not trying to say anything about you Matthew). I'm not afraid of your black Christ picture, I just find it rather distastefully painted (and I'd say the same if He looked Germanic) and would rather see an icon. Feel free to disagree, though.
James
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« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2005, 06:34:02 AM »

Americans have a history of mis-representing people from the levant, Jesus now is an African-American,(maybe played by Will Smith?) and for years Hollywood portrayed Jesus as a Norwegian-American. The issue is that Americans still have difficulty in thinking outside their primitive black and white color prisim.

This email , reproduced in this Greek blog, brings up the issue of Nordicism and Africanism that permeates America's isolated and warped view of all humanity.

Scroll down to the visual re-creation of what Jesus probably looked like:

http://hellenicnationalist.blogspot.com/2004/12/iranian-perspective-on-alexander-movie.html
Jesus Christ, is frequently portrayed as a slightly built, tall blonde Nordic man. Jesus or Jeshua, was a Jew from West Asia who spoke Aramaic. It is now acknowledged by a number of researchers that much of what we accept as the "appearance" of Jesus is not altogether accurate. Jesus would most likely have resembled a modern Fertile Crescent Arab or Jew from places such as Jerusalem, Amman, Hebron, Damascus or Basra. Scientists have recently reconstructed the image of Christ as he would have most likely appeared in his lifetime in ancient Palestine and Judea (see photo below):
http://hellenicnationalist.blogspot.com/2004/12/iranian-perspective-on-alexander-movie.html



http://hellenicnationalist.blogspot.com/2004/12/iranian-perspective-on-alexander-movie.html
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« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2005, 08:36:31 AM »

I am thinking Jesus looked like any other slender (think Ghandi, he fasted alot too) Middle Eastern male...like the nice men at the barber shop we take the boys to.   But does it freaking matter?

and Bagpiper: if it's not scottish...*fill in the rest*   Wink

and on the African american label...I have yet to know anyone to describe themselves as anything but Black.  Or something more rude that if my kids said it we would get accused of being racist.  *We used to live in the 'hood*  I have a big problem using African American if i dont know if they are from Nigeria or Jamaca or Idaho.  Or a Jamacan living in Idaho. Or Nigerian/Jamacan/Norwegian...did ya think to ask what thye refer to themselves as?   Lets see...call me a European-Native-Caucasian-American??? We're all just people.  And I'm not white, I'm sort of a nice pale beige color.  My daughter is glow in the dark, one of the others is nut brown (in the summer) and my husband is red AND glow in the dark (think Hank Hill).  What can I say? (trying to make a point on how stupid the whole thing is)

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« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2005, 11:04:25 AM »

I am thinking Jesus looked like any other slender (think Ghandi, he fasted alot too) Middle Eastern male...like the nice men at the barber shop we take the boys to.  ÃƒÆ’‚ But does it freaking matter?
Next you'll be saying does theology really matter as long as we all love each other.   If you don't have boundaries and principles, and you don't stick to them, then what do you have? 




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« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2005, 11:08:22 AM »

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My wife is a Slovak-American because she was born there. Her brother is not a Slovak-American because he was born here. He is an American of Slovak descent.

That's kind of funny.  The American citizens from Serbia call themselves "Serbs."  The kids of the immigrants call themselves "Serbs."  The ones whose great great great grandparents came from the Balkans and who don't know how to say hello in Serbian call themselves "Serbs." ÂÂ

My father-in-law was born in a Polish part of a town in PA.  His father was half Polish and half Slovak.  His mother was Slovak.  Ask him what his ethnic group is:  Polish.  Ask him WHAT he is and he'll say "American".  There's a difference between genetic background, ethnic identity, cultural identity, and national identity.

We went to Oklahoma over Memorial Day weekend with my folks.  My mother wanted to visit her cousins.  My kids were then exposed to the cousins I grew up with, who look very different from us.  They have dark skin and black hair, but we are close.  My mother's half-sister was there.  Her kids, my half-first cousins, play stick ball and say "O-si-yo" for a greeting and ask "do-hi-tsu?"  Last night my light-haired four-year-old pointed at a picture of a native american kid and said, "He's like me."  Well, he was and he wasn't.  My cousins and my mom make dang sure I get the tribal paper, which I read.  I read my son the really great kid's stories.  He is a citizen of the tribal government.  But he's not Native American and neither am I.  (The BIA says we are since we all have to have registered numbers like cattle).

Then I had to re-explain to him his mother's family.  How they came from Slovakia and, for some of them, from a place in Poland about two miles from the border with Slovakia, and tell him what that means for him and why he's different from his cousins in Oklahoma.  We eat primarily Slovak food in our home.  At Christmas we celebrate the way the Slovaks do.  Then we have a Slava like Serbs. ÂÂ

Some here, I'm sure, will say that my son has no right to call himself anything.  I've heard that argument before.  Leave people in some sort of cultural wasteland where they aren't anything.  I usually get this talk from people who grew up in America and wear t-shirts that say "FBI-Full Blooded Italian".  They usually don't speak Italian, eat and Burger King, drink Budweiser "beer" and don't go to mass.

As I have explained in another thread, ethnicity is defined as "groups of people classed according to common racial, national, tribal, religious, linguistic, or cultural origin or background." ÂÂ

The "or cultural origin or background" is very important.  The Serbs who go to my church who are Americans through and through, could very well still be ethnic Serbs.  They don't need anyone's permission to recognize that fact.  The semantics of who is Serbian-American, of Serbian decent, etc. is generally an issue when one group is trying to exclude another group for political reasons.

It is unhelpful to say that someone is Slovak-American because they were born there (and, possibly, don't even remember being there) and then calling a sibbling something else because they were born here, while they both grew up in the exact same culture and the exact same environment.  It has no purpose as it doesn't mean anything about WHO the individual is.  If my wife and I went to China and had a kid there and then came back, would the kid be "Chinese-American" since he/she was born there?  Of course not!

In our complicated, multi-ethnic society every houshold is different. ÂÂ Sometimes our individuals homes become a single ethnic group. ÂÂ For "clubs" and other "organizations," defining who is a member of that organization is important. ÂÂ It serves to narrow membership and focus. ÂÂ That's great. ÂÂ But it doesn't give these clubs and organizations the right to dictate what a person is ethnically or culturally and how that person defines himself.  That is, unless you're Native American and then you are defined by your "degree of blood" by universities, states, the BIA, and the tribe itself.

If that's the model some of you ethnic "purists" want to go to, I suggest you live in it for a while.  It's a lot of fun.
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« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2005, 11:24:46 AM »

BTW, I have a different "degree of blood" from the BIA to the tribe.  They use different standards on whether or not a person counts.  Right now our tribal courts are hearing a case on whether or not the descendants of freed slaves of tribal citizens are allowed to be tribal citizens. 

Like I said, deciding to define who gets to use what "ethnic" labels is a lot of fun.
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« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2005, 11:34:40 AM »

That's kind of funny.  The American citizens from Serbia call themselves "Serbs."  The kids of the immigrants call themselves "Serbs."  The ones whose great great great grandparents came from the Balkans and who don't know how to say hello in Serbian call themselves "Serbs." ÂÂ
Your nationality doesn't change based on geographical location.  Its sad they don't know their heritage of language, or indeed their religion, but they are still Serbs.

My father-in-law was born in a Polish part of a town in PA.  His father was half Polish and half Slovak.  His mother was Slovak.  Ask him what his ethnic group is:  Polish.  Ask him WHAT he is and he'll say "American".  There's a difference between genetic background, ethnic identity, cultural identity, and national identity.
For me there is no difference, I am Serbian genetically, ethnically, culturally, linguistically, spiritually or in any other category.  My passport is a usefull piece of plastic that has no relation to my nationality.  Although born and bred in England, I am not English or any other fancy combination of Serbian and English, i am Serbian pure and simple.  I feel no loyalty or belonging to England. 
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« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2005, 11:38:39 AM »

Quote
In the New Testament, the only description of Jesus' skin color is given in Revelation 1:15 -
"His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters…"

Context and the etymology of the original Greek clear all of this up.

Full passage, first...

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; ÂÂ
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. (Apocalypse of St.John 1:14-15)

Context - Not intended to be taken as a "racial" description, as Christ is also said here to have eyes as "a flame of fire" and "white hair" (white as wool or snow).  His voice is also said to sound as "many waters" (reverberating, loud, booming).  This is refering to a glorified condition of His humanity, not creaturely "racial" qualities.

Etymology - the word often translated as "brass" or "bronze" in this passage (in English Bibles) in Greek is calkolivbanon.  The word is a compound of chalkos (brass, or things made of brass) and libanos (frankincence, frankincence tree).  Why the reference to frankincence?  Because the resin of this tree, is a very light white, and/or slightly golden colour.  Thus, the translation of the term calkolivbanon as "fine brass" is good - a very light, metallic, highly reflective, golden colour.  That doesn't exactly sound "black to me.

[img=http://www.scent-by-nature.co.uk/acatalog/frnkrscbm2.jpg]
Frankincence

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« Reply #38 on: June 17, 2005, 11:46:07 AM »

Serbian Patriot,

Quote
For me there is no difference, I am Serbian genetically, ethnically, culturally, linguistically, spiritually or in any other category.  My passport is a usefull piece of plastic that has no relation to my nationality.  Although born and bred in England, I am not English or any other fancy combination of Serbian and English, i am Serbian pure and simple.  I feel no loyalty or belonging to England.

This is illogical.  You're also going into dangerous grounds mixing "genetics" with national and cultural identity; the three are very distinct, and no shortage of misery have been caused in the last century by the confusion of the three.

As for your passport being meaningless, shame on you.  People like you are precisely what makes the natives of a given land feel angry and betrayed.  It's the height of ingratitude and snobbery.  Unlike you, I was not even born in my country of citizenship - but I was raised here, and for better and for worse, I've lived with these people (Canadians) most of my life, and their fate is mine.

Quote
i am Serbian pure and simple

No you're not.  You have Serbian ancestors, and are part of a diaspora Serbian ethnic community, a subset of your local nation (precisely because it kindly tolerates and even ecourages people to bring their "old ways" with them.)

Quote
I feel no loyalty or belonging to England.

Absolutely disgusting.

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« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2005, 12:16:59 PM »

Augustine,

I will take issue with you for saying he is not a Serb.  That's ridiculous.  Who gave you the ethnic picker stick?

Did you bother to ask WHY he was in England?  It could very well be that he was taken there as a temporary refugee.  We have those at our church.  They didn't want to come here but the U.S. agreed to take some since they were bombing Serbian homes.  I need to point out that I don't recognize the difference between a U.S. soldier blowing up a house or an MPRI employee hired by the White House blowing up a house.  Either way, the U.S. government is responsible.

I don't know his history, so I'm not passing judgment.

Serbian Patriot,

I hope you've got a good story to cover the claim that you should have no loyalties to Britain.  Well, other than the fact that they are pompous imperalists bent on the oppression of certain peoples. Grin

Tongue in cheek, ladies, tongue in cheek.
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« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2005, 12:33:28 PM »

â€Â  Irini nem ehmot â€Â

perhaps i may be strange, but i don't see the big deal in Serbian Pilot not having loyalties to England.  it's good that he takes pride in his serbian heritage.  i am presently living in canada, but i don't feel like i should hold any loyalties to it (even though i was born here).  i am egyptian by blood and proud to be egyptian.  and in the (highly unlikely) event of a war breaking out between canada and egypt (amusing thought to say the least), i would certainly side with egypt, it's my homeland.  it's all about pride in one's heritage, not pride in one's adopted country.  just my thoughts.

Prayers please.
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« Reply #41 on: June 17, 2005, 02:45:32 PM »

Cephas,

Quote
i am presently living in canada, but i don't feel like i should hold any loyalties to it (even though i was born here).  i am egyptian by blood and proud to be egyptian.  and in the (highly unlikely) event of a war breaking out between canada and egypt (amusing thought to say the least), i would certainly side with egypt, it's my homeland.

Yes, but it's a good enough country to spounge off all of it's benefits, it's relatively peaceful climate, etc. etc.  Yup, sickening as well.

Frankly, you should book a flight on the next plain and leave.  I have no sympathy for this mentality, as it rightfully gives fodder to those who are already suspicious of immigration.

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« Reply #42 on: June 17, 2005, 05:02:54 PM »

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Yes, but it's a good enough country to spounge off all of it's benefits, it's relatively peaceful climate, etc. etc.  Yup, sickening as well.

That still seems a bit too all or nothing to me.  Loyalty to a government takes time.  I just don't get the demand.

Cephas, do you pay Canadian taxes?  Are you eligible for the draft?  Did you serve in the military?  Are you able to serve in the military?  Are you an immigrant?  What were the circumstances that caused you to be in Canada?

If you financially support a government through taxes, btw, that's about the most many government requires anyway. 

I like Canada, except they were a bunch of sniveling loyalist tories or Frenchy types.
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« Reply #43 on: June 17, 2005, 05:29:29 PM »

Next you'll be saying does theology really matter as long as we all love each other.  ÃƒÆ’‚ If you don't have boundaries and principles, and you don't stick to them, then what do you have?  





Do you honestly think someone born in that area at that time looked like a Norwegian? I highly doubt it.
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« Reply #44 on: June 17, 2005, 05:58:24 PM »

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Do you honestly think someone born in that area at that time looked like a Norwegian?

Ja, sir.  You betcha!
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« Reply #45 on: June 17, 2005, 06:34:34 PM »

Cephas,

Yes, but it's a good enough country to spounge off all of it's benefits, it's relatively peaceful climate, etc. etc.  Yup, sickening as well.

Frankly, you should book a flight on the next plain and leave.  I have no sympathy for this mentality, as it rightfully gives fodder to those who are already suspicious of immigration.

I would put both the words "benefits" and "realtively peaceful" between quotes.  I am by no means saying I hate the country.  Canada has been good (for the most part) to me.  All I'm saying is that (to use the old cliche) "blood is thicker than water".  As for sympathy, I can assure you I am most certainly not looking for your (or anyone else's for that matter) symapthy.  Again, I am not an immigrant (as I believe i stated that i was born here).  I pay taxes and thankfully there is no draft in which i have to worry about.  I obey the laws of the land as Christ taught, "Render to Ceasar that which is Ceasar's, and to God that which is God's".  That is as far as my loyalties will lie though.  As for providing fodder for those who are suspicious of immigration, do you honestly think that?  Irregardless of what anyone says, there will always be uneducated redneck hicks who are suspicious of anything different than themselves.  My loyalty (or lack thereof) will not change anything.
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« Reply #46 on: June 17, 2005, 06:54:18 PM »

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Are you eligible for the draft?

Ha! We Canadians do not have a draft.  Grin

As a Canadian, I'm not as much loyal to the Canada as I am to our monarch, Elizabeth II, Queen by the grace of God and rightful ruler of Canada. I guess that makes be a loyalist to you Yanks.

Mind you, my political affiliations change rapidly as I'm in college; viva la Quebec libre, eh.
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« Reply #47 on: June 17, 2005, 08:36:02 PM »

And I will ask again: What are the depictions you refer to?

"A Black Madonna (also, Black Virgin) is a statue or painting of Mary in which she is depicted as having black skin. Hundreds of them exist in southern France alone.

The most widely accepted explanation is that the Madonnas were not meant to represent a black-skinned Mary, but rather they are black simply because of the wood or stone they were carved from, or that smoke from candles and incense have turned them black.

According to some legends, however, the Black Madonnas do not depict Mary, the mother of Jesus, but rather Mary Magdalene. It is certainly true that where there are Black Madonnas, there generally is also a strong tradition of venerating Mary Magdalene. According to this view, the Black Madonna is claimed to symbolize the allegedly hidden story of Mary Magdalene, after she fled to Egypt pregnant with Jesus's child and then went on safely to Provence, France.

Yet another explanation posits that the figure represents a Christianised version of the goddess Isis with her child Horus." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Madonna
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« Reply #48 on: June 17, 2005, 09:26:53 PM »

"A Black Madonna (also, Black Virgin) is a statue or painting of Mary in which she is depicted as having black skin. Hundreds of them exist in southern France alone.

The most widely accepted explanation is that the Madonnas were not meant to represent a black-skinned Mary, but rather they are black simply because of the wood or stone they were carved from, or that smoke from candles and incense have turned them black.

According to some legends, however, the Black Madonnas do not depict Mary, the mother of Jesus, but rather Mary Magdalene. It is certainly true that where there are Black Madonnas, there generally is also a strong tradition of venerating Mary Magdalene. According to this view, the Black Madonna is claimed to symbolize the allegedly hidden story of Mary Magdalene, after she fled to Egypt pregnant with Jesus's child and then went on safely to Provence, France.

Yet another explanation posits that the figure represents a Christianised version of the goddess Isis with her child Horus." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Madonna

From viewing these statues I cannot conclude that they are purposely depicting a black African woman because the facial features do no fit with either black African races (Capoid and Negroid).
Also I have heard the various statues of the girl with the alabaster jar are supposed to be St. Mary Magdalene's daughter. Of course that comes out of the Dan Brown balogna crowd.

http://www.breviary.net/images/sacredheart8.jpg
Perhaps this is the Jesus Christ Matthew is afraid of?
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« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2005, 10:00:38 PM »

Though I am not fearful of the concept of a blonde-haired, blue-eyed Jesus, I do find it to be inaccurate.
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« Reply #50 on: June 17, 2005, 11:09:28 PM »

I am sorry brother Serbian P. feels that way.

SOC in Australia prayes for HRH Elizabeth II, which whom I do respect as my Monarch. I was a soldier of the Royal Australian Infantry Corps for 6 years. I was not even born in Australia.

To tell you the truth, I feel no contradiction in being Australian of a Serb Heritage. And in my 30 years the only people ever that gave me a grieff abuot my accent were Serbians when I was living as a refuge in Serbia between 1992-1995 (and being from Bosnia, we have different accents, we say things one way they say it other, they call me a moslem because I speak that way, which is really funny, the reformer of Serbian Language Vuk S. Karadzic spoke the way we in Bosnia do).

Anyway, not many Serbs in Australia feel the "burning need" to NOT be Australians and publicly say so, and I do not find talking to them very attractive. After all if you are not happy with where you are (and you are not in jail that is) go where you will be happier.


I come to Australia with 50DM (German Marks in 1995-which was abour 35USD back then). And this country gave me to live, not telling me ever that I need to throw away anything assuming anything new. Whilst in the Army, I nearly got jailed for doing a guard duty on "Serbian" Christmas (according to Julian Calendar) and not telling anyone about it. It was a serious breach of ones religious rights (they did not care that it was a breach of me on me).

So, each to their own, I can not agree with BEING IN SOME PLACE and NOT RESPECTING IT. That is such a sectarian attitude. For if you do not respect what God gave you today, you will never respect what He will give you tommorow.

But, that is me. I for one love the little flag (under my nick) and there is no man alive that can tell me that is a bad thing and makes me any less Serb or that being Serb makes me any less Australian.

I had both Serbs and Aussies having to die so I can live and I would have done the same if I was granted the honour.
My whole unit (a battalion) collected money (and a good sum at that) and Commanding Officer took it to the Serbian Priest when this one was visiting our base for a wedding of an officer of our brigade (whos wife is of Serbian origin). The money was given for the Children who lost their parent/s during the war in the Balkans. Serbian Children.

So, if you excuse me, each to their own. I for one, can not agree with hating what God gave you today being good or bad.

Forgive me.
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« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2005, 12:31:39 AM »

Quote
Though I am not fearful of the concept of a blonde-haired, blue-eyed Jesus, I do find it to be inaccurate.

You mean almost as innacurate as your avatar? I really don't care how light or dark he was. I have to wonder about any theologian that has the time to sit around and pontificate about skin color.... Roll Eyes Maybe there are better things to do like ummmm feed the homeless?
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« Reply #52 on: June 18, 2005, 12:53:30 AM »

Those aren't your own words, Mathew, you're just quoting the Wikipedia article verbatim.  Have *you* seen any of the "Earliest depictions" and if so, which ones are you thinking of?

And for Pete's Sake!  The article lists Our Lady of Guadalupe as a "Black Madonna"?!??   Why on earth should the rest of it be believed.  And THE "Black Madonna" of Czestochowa does not have, as Sabbas wrote facial features that look any kind of African. (Of which there are many, there  is no uniform sameness "African".  My neighbors from the Cameroons, do not look like Masai from the eastern part of Africa nor are Zulus indistinguishable from, say, Ethiopians.  Sorry, one of my little bug-bears along with "There is no such thing as "American Indian" but many different tribes and cultures and customs.  But I digress.)

As for the rest of the Mary Magdalene/Holy Bloodlines/Templars and all sort of tripe that Dan Brown parlayed into a best seller.  This is all flat out speculation and assertions. 

Ebor
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« Reply #53 on: June 18, 2005, 12:54:46 AM »

Sin_Vladimirov,

If I had an emoticon with applause, it would be here right now.  I salute you. 

 Smiley

Ebor
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« Reply #54 on: June 18, 2005, 03:25:20 AM »

Ebor, haven't you even heard of the Black Madonna of Poland? That is probably the most famous statue of the Black Madonna, if I am not mistaken. Pope John Paul II venerated it rather openly but perhaps you missed it.
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« Reply #55 on: June 18, 2005, 07:20:24 AM »

Matthew, Ebor spoke of the "Black Madonna of Poland" (although no Poles actually call it that - at least IME).  She called the icon by the proper title of Czestochowa (and the Lady of Jasna Gora is also widely used).  The problem the internet brings is that people think they can google a few key terms, spend five minutes reading some webpages and suddenly they are experts on a subject.  The internet is great for gaining familarity with many broad subjects, but not to become an expert in five minutes. 

As an aside I am quite familar with the icon in question and have a print of it in my icon corner.  Because of that many of the Poles in my family have decided Orthodoxy must be OK if we still venerate the Lady of Jasna Gora.  And I find the political agenda you are trying to "prove" through this icon to be quite odious. 
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« Reply #56 on: June 18, 2005, 07:44:28 AM »

Serbian Patriot,
This is illogical.ÂÂ  You're also going into dangerous grounds mixing "genetics" with national and cultural identity; the three are very distinct, and no shortage of misery have been caused in the last century by the confusion of the three.
The Serbian nation is genetically different to other nations, whether you like it or not.  Just as the Greek, or German nation is genetically different.  I agree when it comes to america, since it is a mish mash of different immigrants, the notion of a genetically, spiritually, culturally united nation goes out of the window.  Thank God I wasn't born in that God-forsaken country, one of the main battle fronts in the eradication of Christianity.

As for your passport being meaningless, shame on you.ÂÂ  People like you are precisely what makes the natives of a given land feel angry and betrayed.
ÂÂ
A passport is not indicative of nationality, how hard is that to understand.  I don't care who feels angry or betrayed by my statement.  It is only a drop in the ocean to the anger and betrayal that i feel at the destruction that this country has instigated on not just my own but other countries.  Anger at disrespect for a piece of plastic pales into insignificance compared to this physical destruction of entire nations.


It's the height of ingratitude and snobbery.ÂÂ  Unlike you, I was not even born in my country of citizenship - but I was raised here, and for better and for worse, I've lived with these people (Canadians) most of my life, and their fate is mine.
Tell me what do I have to be grateful to them for??  You do not know my personal history otherwise you would not be saying that.  And no their fate is not mine. This nation can no longer be considered Christian, 1-2% of people go to church.  It is a country much like yours, one of moral degenerates.  It is being guided to its own doom and destruction by the rulers.  I would be an idiot if i wanted to share in this fate.

No you're not.ÂÂ  You have Serbian ancestors, and are part of a diaspora Serbian ethnic community

I can fully understand how you came up with such a notion, given that you come from a melting pot, secular, liberal country with no defined nation. ÂÂ

(precisely because it kindly tolerates and even ecourages people to bring their "old ways" with them.)
Absolutely disgusting.
The indiginous people of this country do no encourage immigration, (i fully commend and support this stance), it is the rulers who have sold them down the river that do.  This country has more people attending mosques than churches.  Is this the kind of tolerance you recommend? ÂÂ
It would however be much more positive on the side of these demonic rulers, if they had as much toleration for sovereign countries as they did for suicidal immigration.  That would be a type of tolerance i could appreciate!
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« Reply #57 on: June 18, 2005, 08:22:45 AM »

Augustine,

I will take issue with you for saying he is not a Serb.ÂÂ  That's ridiculous.ÂÂ  Who gave you the ethnic picker stick?

Did you bother to ask WHY he was in England?ÂÂ  It could very well be that he was taken there as a temporary refugee.ÂÂ  We have those at our church.ÂÂ  They didn't want to come here but the U.S. agreed to take some since they were bombing Serbian homes.ÂÂ  I need to point out that I don't recognize the difference between a U.S. soldier blowing up a house or an MPRI employee hired by the White House blowing up a house.ÂÂ  Either way, the U.S. government is responsible.

I don't know his history, so I'm not passing judgment.
Serbian Patriot,

I hope you've got a good story to cover the claim that you should have no loyalties to Britain.ÂÂ  Well, other than the fact that they are pompous imperalists bent on the oppression of certain peoples. Grin

Tongue in cheek, ladies, tongue in cheek.
The fact that they are imperialists bent on the oppression of certain peoples is reason enough.  I would be a complete cretin to feel allegiance to this war-mongering elite that rule this country. 
However my personal history gives me even more reason to take the stance i have.  In the last century my nation has undergone more suffering and wars than in any century previous to that.  My ancestors had withstood the ottoman occupation, the balkan wars, the 1st and 2nd world wars.  Throughout all these hardships none of my ancestors had left their country.  It is as a result of a gross betrayal, whose responsibility lays almost entirely with the elite running Britain, that my family was forced to leave.  Serbia had an option to stay neutral during the 2nd ww and indeed signed a pact proclaiming her neutrality.  Since this did not suit the interests of the elite running Britain, they instigated a coup and the resulting government entered the pointless war on the side of the allies, just as the 2 anti-Christian empires of Germany and Soviet Russia were about to clash.  Our country was overrun with breathtaking ease in just 6 weeks.  The revenge exacted by the Germans was horrific, but this paled into insignificance compared to the genocide we suffered at the hands of Croatia.  In the mean time our 'allies' switched their support from the nationalist resistance forces to the communist ones.  This resulted in the communists coming to power.  In the 40 years they attempted to eradicate Christianity, and our 'allies' the British stood by and watched.  The Queen, the head of a nominally Christian church was indifferent.  Come the nineties, and our 'allies' were no longer content with leaving us at the mercy of other evil doers, they decided to personally attack us.  However I stray from my families personal history.  My grandfathers fought the communists with the nationalist resistance.  When the communists won, the surviving anti-communist units withdrew to Italy.  Hence my family would never have left our homeland if it had not been for this betrayal.  Can i really be grateful that my family was accepted into England?? Its like beating someone over the head with a hammer, and expecting them to be grateful when you drive them to hospital.  Subsequent events in the nineties, and the degeneration of western society since the 2nd ww show that these are not just isolated events.  God knows i am not harbouring some irrational paranoia, but these things have not happened by accident.  And the blame lies at the hands of the globalist elite, which i will not go in to.  And not only will i never feel loyalty to them or any society they subjugate, but i pray for their utter destruction. 
I have explained this all rather clumsily, but i do not have time to write entire essays on the internet in support of my ideological position.  I fight my ideological battles in real life.
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« Reply #58 on: June 18, 2005, 08:29:03 AM »

Do you honestly think someone born in that area at that time looked like a Norwegian? I highly doubt it.
I never said Jesus looked nordic, yet alone Norwegian.  I have problems with non-Orthodox pictures that portray Jesus in any fanciful way the artist decides.  Do you really believe that Jesus was a black man of west african extraction with dreadlocks and a muscular upper body, intent on showing it off by going around topless?HuhHuhHuh
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« Reply #59 on: June 18, 2005, 08:49:51 AM »

I am sorry brother Serbian P. feels that way.

SOC in Australia prayes for HRH Elizabeth II, which whom I do respect as my Monarch. I was a soldier of the Royal Australian Infantry Corps for 6 years. I was not even born in Australia.
How sad that you swear allegiance to this pathetic puppet.  When she was forced to give up her rights as absolute ruler, she also gave up her ability to defend the Church which she is head of.  She is now nothing more than a tourist attraction.  The Church of England is in utter dissaray, and is almost complicit in its own destruction.  The following article provides an example of what routinely happens in England.  Only local priests can be relied upon to stand in the way, the higher echelons of the CofE have sold out.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/4073480.stm

For Gods sake think! How can you have allegiance to governments that are fundamentally un-Christian.  They sanction the killing of babies in their mothers wombs, they bomb Christian countries, they actively undermine Christianity and Christian values in society, they promote degenerates and fill our media slots with them, they make no attempts to stamp out drugs or pornography. I could go on, but do i really need to?  Just ask yourself is it Christian to support all this.  I still live within the bounds of the law, but i am deluded enough to feel any loyalty, yet alone respect.



So, each to their own, I can not agree with BEING IN SOME PLACE and NOT RESPECTING IT. That is such a sectarian attitude. For if you do not respect what God gave you today, you will never respect what He will give you tommorow.
Since when does God expect me to respect this society, I would argue that he expects me to resist it.

But, that is me. I for one love the little flag (under my nick) and there is no man alive that can tell me that is a bad thing and makes me any less Serb or that being Serb makes me any less Australian.
It is a sign of your mental and emotional subjugation to what Australia stand for.

So, if you excuse me, each to their own. I for one, can not agree with hating what God gave you today being good or bad.
Forgive me.
I am very happy with what God has given my in my life, but by what perverted logic does that mean i must support corrupt governments??
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« Reply #60 on: June 18, 2005, 09:42:08 AM »

Brother you can say whatever you think. I will not argue with another Serb in public no matter how wrong I might think he is.
You are welcome to say whatever you wish.

God bless you.
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« Reply #61 on: June 18, 2005, 09:54:40 AM »

Ebor, haven't you even heard of the Black Madonna of Poland? That is probably the most famous statue of the Black Madonna, if I am not mistaken. Pope John Paul II venerated it rather openly but perhaps you missed it.

Yes I have, and I used the correct name for that icon, as Siluon wrote. 

Ebor
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« Reply #62 on: June 18, 2005, 10:10:18 AM »

The problem the internet brings is that people think they can google a few key terms, spend five minutes reading some webpages and suddenly they are experts on a subject.ÂÂ  The internet is great for gaining familarity with many broad subjects, but not to become an expert in five minutes.ÂÂ  

True.ÂÂ  Just because something is on a website doesn't mean that it's reliable or necessarily true.ÂÂ  It takes thought and discernment to tell if information is fact or opinion, good or bad.ÂÂ  Questions should be asked like "Whose website is this?" (I'll take a collection of information from a university site over some random poster without back up information).ÂÂ  "Why are they putting this info/page up?"ÂÂ  ("do I hear axes grinding in the distance?"ÂÂ  Is there an agenda?)ÂÂ  "Is there documentaion? What are the sources? Are there countering views or ideas?"ÂÂ  

That is why, as an example, information from New Advent and documentation and citatations to sources like the Bodleian Liibrary in Oxford regarding a "Deathbed Prophecy of St. Edward the Confessor" are reliable and may be taken seriously where one that is markedly different in wording, without any citations on a site of a splinter group should not.ÂÂ  (that was in another thread in this forum.)ÂÂ  

For some, knowledge from the Net is like the saying of the Platte River in Nebraska "A mile wide and an inch deep".
http://www.nebraskastudies.org/0400/frameset_reset.html?http://www.nebraskastudies.org/0400/stories/0401_0142.html

 Grin

Ebor
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« Reply #63 on: June 18, 2005, 12:16:17 PM »

The whole discussion here about loyalties is polluted by ignorance and a failure to make proper distinctions between "genetics" (which is actually irrelevent), "governments" and "nations."

Suffice it to say, I think "Serbian Patriot" should get on the next air plain out of England - put up or shut up.  Ingratitude in all of it's forms, is a pet-peeve of mine.  Nothing irritates me more when immigrants (or worse yet, people born there who are not immigrants at all, but natives!  Such absurdity!) have seditious loyalties to other lands, and utterly do not comprehend that the grass is not greener over there.  Obviously, there was something not-so-wonderful about what has become of Serbia, if there are so many Serbs in the diaspora (England, Canada, United States, etc.)

Have the courage of your convictions, or quit annoying people with their open expression.

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« Reply #64 on: June 18, 2005, 12:40:29 PM »

The whole discussion here about loyalties is polluted by ignorance and a failure to make proper distinctions between "genetics" (which is actually irrelevent), "governments" and "nations."
It is you who is not making proper distinctions, but trying to morph them all together into some kind of wish-washy airy-fairy view.  Genetics may be irrelvant to you, but that doesn't stop it existing.  It is part of what makes up the national identity of a nation.

Suffice it to say, I think "Serbian Patriot" should get on the next air plain out of England - put up or shut up.ÂÂ  Ingratitude in all of it's forms, is a pet-peeve of mine.ÂÂ
Gratitude?Huh?  You really are extremely ignorant.  I have stated my personal history and details, please enlighten at to what i am supposed to grateful for.

Nothing irritates me more when immigrants (or worse yet, people born there who are not immigrants at all, but natives!ÂÂ  (Such absurdity!)
Being born in a foreign land doesn't make me a native.  Natives are the indiginous population.  I understand you find it hard to understand that concept since you live in a america.

have seditious loyalties to other lands, and utterly do not comprehend that the grass is not greener over there.ÂÂ  Obviously, there was something not-so-wonderful about what has become of Serbia, if there are so many Serbs in the diaspora (England, Canada, United States, etc.)
!)
1.  I do not have any loyalties to the present 'democratic' government.  They are complete western loving sellouts, who at times try to play the patriotic card, all the while selling our country down the river.
2.  Being a patriot does not mean that everything is better in your own country.  I never said the grass was greener over there, though it is in some respects and not in others, but i am a Serb for better or for worse.  That doesn't change depending on economic situations.
3. I am not a recent economic migrant, my family was forced out 3 generations ago.  I cannot answer for those that have left recently.



Have the courage of your convictions, or quit annoying people with their open expression.
I have the courage of my own convictions, and i am defending them here, too bad if that annoys you.  I guess that makes you the intolerant one.
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« Reply #65 on: June 18, 2005, 03:11:43 PM »

I loved living in Blighty under Maggie's leadership.  But when I went back  a year ago - it was as bad as the People's Republic of WA.  Pity. But we yearn for another Kingdom. Love living in the beautiful Pacific NorthWest, beats Manchester everytime.  The natives are friendly, there's plenty of wildlife., the climate is temperate...  The suffering of the Serbian people is probably indictative of the holiness of its current saints, hidden but active.  May Orthodoxy continue to flourish among this brave people!
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« Reply #66 on: June 18, 2005, 05:03:39 PM »

For Gods sake think! How can you have allegiance to governments that are fundamentally un-Christian.ÂÂ  They sanction the killing of babies in their mothers wombs, they bomb Christian countries, they actively undermine Christianity and Christian values in society, they promote degenerates and fill our media slots with them, they make no attempts to stamp out drugs or pornography. I could go on, but do i really need to?ÂÂ  Just ask yourself is it Christian to support all this.ÂÂ  I still live within the bounds of the law, but i am deluded enough to feel any loyalty, yet alone respect.

 At least these governments did not sanction the murder of hundreds of civilians in the name of a rabid, whacked Nationalism.  If that is what a "Christian" nation is, I am glad I live in the US even though it supposedly has been "sold down the river" by all those "liberals" Smiley
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« Reply #67 on: June 18, 2005, 06:03:04 PM »

And I find the political agenda you are trying to "prove" through this icon to be quite odious. 

I have not tried to bring a political agenda to this discussion. I find this to be an interesting topic that however is not especially important.
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« Reply #68 on: June 18, 2005, 06:23:39 PM »

Brother you can say whatever you think. I will not argue with another Serb in public no matter how wrong I might think he is.
You are welcome to say whatever you wish.

God bless you.

So would it have been wrong for a German to argue with Hitler in public since presumably you are saying people of ethnic group X should stick together with other people from ethnic group X?  Tongue

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« Reply #69 on: June 18, 2005, 07:13:35 PM »

So would it have been wrong for a German to argue with Hitler in public since presumably you are saying people of ethnic group X should stick together with other people from ethnic group X? Tongue

Anastasios

I am truly sorry you see it THAT way.

Although having been put that way I do see that any my explanation will be taken with outmost ammount of prejudice.

Thank you for comparison with Hitler.

Very nice indeed.

Good bye.
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« Reply #70 on: June 18, 2005, 07:13:56 PM »

At least these governments did not sanction the murder of hundreds of civilians in the name of a rabid, whacked Nationalism.
 If that is what a "Christian" nation is, I am glad I live in the US even though it supposedly has been "sold down the river" by all those "liberals" Smiley
These governments sanctioned the murder of MILLIONS not hundreds.  I don't know what country you are alluding to when you say a Christian nation murdered hundreds in the name of rabid nationalism.  If it is Serbia you are an extremely intellectually deficient individual.  After all the faults i listed of your government, how you can say that you are glad to live there as a Christian is a mystery to me. ÂÂ
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« Reply #71 on: June 18, 2005, 07:18:17 PM »

Quote
and utterly do not comprehend that the grass is not greener over there.  Obviously, there was something not-so-wonderful about what has become of Serbia, if there are so many Serbs in the diaspora (England, Canada, United States, etc.)

Okay.  I don't agree with SP's approach, but this is like a white person telling Rosa Parks, after telling her to go to the back of the bus, that she shouldn't be upset to be forced to the back of the bus since it's safer for her back there.  It's stupid because the reason it's not safe for her in the front is because *they made it unsafe for her to be in the front.*  Do you have any idea what Churchill's decision to sell Yugoslavia to the devil did to all the people in Yugoslavia?  You could at least listen to what SP is saying and try to understand where he is coming from.

I admit that I have libertarian leanings.  If SP doesn't feel loyal to the UK because of what they did to Yugoslavia, then it's his choice.  If he is a citizen of the UK, pays his taxes and abides by their laws, then they'll let him stay.  Why should they kick him out?  Because he has unpopular ideas?  Great!
 

SP,

I think your discussion on genetics is misplaced.  It has nothing to do with genes and everything to do with ethnic and national identity, and the FREEDOM to see yourself as not being a national or ethnic member of your nation of citizenship.  I personally think you need to learn to forgive and that Patriarch Pavle has worked very hard to show us how we should forgive those who are even now burning our churches.  I'm not even an ethnic Serb, but I am Serbian Orthodox. 

My genetic family didn't build those churches in Kosovo, but the people who brought me my church and much of my Faith were persecuted and martyred there.  It makes me absolutely furious to see our churches burning in Kosovo and I have every desire to see those  suffer who burn our churches and murder the Serbian people and destroy your ethnic history and wipe out the history of our spiritual forefathers. 

But our patriarch tells us to follow something greater than the Muslims, pagans and communists.  He calls us to follow Christ and to forgive and pray for our enemies.  I don't want to pray for them.  Honestly, I'd rather see them burn in hell.  But if I do that, then I'm no better than them. 

There is a famous Lakota writer who was talking about Wounded Knee.  He was sitting on a mountain on a reservation thinking about the poverty he lives in, the land stolen by the whites in the town, how his people are treated when they leave the reservation, the alcoholism and dispare in the reservation and how his people were more noble and how they deserved more.  He became more and more angry until he realized he had one of three choices:  go down off the mountain with his gun and kill every white person he encountered until he was killed, allow the hate to eat him alive, or forgive and learn to make his life better the way things are.  He chose the last option and he's helped a lot more of his people through forgiveness than he ever could have through hate.

Forgive the Brits, pray for the country you live in, and thank God for the safety and freedom you have to hold your views.
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« Reply #72 on: June 19, 2005, 06:25:30 PM »

I only started this thread because of how others mentioned my avatar. I just think it is a cool picture, which is actually a poster that I am considering to put up in my room.
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« Reply #73 on: June 20, 2005, 04:56:25 PM »

Hey SP:

Not being a DP, you have about as much connection to the stari kraj as both me and my wife.ÂÂ  My wife's Djed fought with Draza and Momcilo Djujic, yet he was always proud of his American citizenship.  You are a posturing kid- a punk.ÂÂ  Does emphasizing your Serbianness makes you feel special at school?ÂÂ  A standout in a crowd of pasty Brits?ÂÂ  (You are different and special, a proud warrior of the Serbian race. Blah blah blah.)ÂÂ  You are a subject of the British Crown and judging from your prose, an ungrateful — although not necessarily adept- recipient of the gifts of her educational system.ÂÂ  

Quote
The Serbian nation is genetically different to other nations, whether you like it or not.ÂÂ  Just as the Greek, or German nation is genetically different.ÂÂ  I agree when it comes to america, since it is a mish mash of different immigrants, the notion of a genetically, spiritually, culturally united nation goes out of the window.ÂÂ  Thank God I wasn't born in that God-forsaken country, one of the main battle fronts in the eradication of Christianity.

Serbs are Slavs and are genetically no different from other Slavs.ÂÂ  

How about you move back to the Selo, brale.ÂÂ  Don’t you have some sheep to herd?ÂÂ  Or if you prefer, you can be unemployed and bitter, hanging out in Kafane with your cell phone and big gold necklace.ÂÂ  

Budala.
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« Reply #74 on: June 20, 2005, 05:41:27 PM »

It is you who is not making proper distinctions, but trying to morph them all together into some kind of wish-washy airy-fairy view.  Genetics may be irrelvant to you, but that doesn't stop it existing.  It is part of what makes up the national identity of a nation.
Gratitude?Huh?  You really are extremely ignorant.  I have stated my personal history and details, please enlighten at to what i am supposed to grateful for.
Being born in a foreign land doesn't make me a native.  Natives are the indiginous population.  I understand you find it hard to understand that concept since you live in a america.
1.  I do not have any loyalties to the present 'democratic' government.  They are complete western loving sellouts, who at times try to play the patriotic card, all the while selling our country down the river.
2.  Being a patriot does not mean that everything is better in your own country.  I never said the grass was greener over there, though it is in some respects and not in others, but i am a Serb for better or for worse.  That doesn't change depending on economic situations.
3. I am not a recent economic migrant, my family was forced out 3 generations ago.  I cannot answer for those that have left recently.

I have the courage of my own convictions, and i am defending them here, too bad if that annoys you.  I guess that makes you the intolerant one.

You speak Djubre. A third generation upper middle class brat claiming his ethnic heritage. *yawn*  Roll Eyes I would love to drop you off in the middle of the former Yugoslavia and watch you survive. Maybe I'll call NBC and have it made into a reality show.



Edited for error.






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« Reply #75 on: June 20, 2005, 06:09:17 PM »

This has got to be the most ridiculous thread I have ever seen.

The Lord Jesus was of the seed of David, a Jew.  A Jew rejected and murdered by His own people.

Put two and two together.  What are the chances?
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« Reply #76 on: June 21, 2005, 12:26:58 AM »

By being the child of the Virgin Mary, Jesus was at least half Jewish. But what about the DNA created by the Father? Think about that.
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« Reply #77 on: June 21, 2005, 12:31:51 AM »

Why half Jewish?  Why not say that Christ took all His genetic material from His mother, therefore making Him entirely Jewish.  Or is it because, in normal sexual reproduction, half a person's genetic make-up comes from their father and the other half from their mother?  Well, clearly there is nothing "normal" about the Incarnation wouldn't you agree?

Prayers please.
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« Reply #78 on: June 21, 2005, 12:45:40 AM »

Quote
Why not say that Christ took all His genetic material from His mother, therefore making Him entirely Jewish.

Because then either Christ would be female or the Theotokos would have had Klinefelter syndrome, in which case she would have been a very feminized man, not a woman.
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« Reply #79 on: June 21, 2005, 12:54:22 AM »

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Because then either Christ would be female

Actually, you can be fully male with two X chormosomes, but I don't know if you'd be able to reproduce.
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« Reply #80 on: June 21, 2005, 01:05:20 AM »

lol, if there's one thing i've learned tonight, it's that i have got to be very very careful with the words i use and how i phrase my sentences.  A good eye-opening experience.  Grin
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« Reply #81 on: June 21, 2005, 02:41:20 AM »

Just look at the genealogies in the Holy Scriptures -Jesus' lineage is within the nation of Israel -the Jews. He was'nt what some people would call white -and he was'nt black. He was semetic descended from the line of Shem (refer to the table of nations in Genesis). It would not worry me what colour he was -but i think historical accuracy is important. Take the Flamish religious art of the late medieval period and you find pale pink cheeked blonde haired Christ-child, people can tend to impose their unconscious stereotypes on sacred subjects. The Theotokos was a Jewish virgin.
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« Reply #82 on: June 21, 2005, 03:03:26 AM »

This has got to be the most ridiculous thread I have ever seen.



OOOO YES! Very true. I can not think of the more ludicrious "theological" presumption. Off all thing that we can talk about, here is tried to be proven that Christ was black.
Yes, he was black but not just black, he was a female too, and not just female but a german female.





Lord, please come and finish with this.
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« Reply #83 on: June 21, 2005, 05:09:38 AM »

Given how the Jews religiously guarded their "bloodline," I doubt that Jesus would be black with dreads. I've never seen a Black Jew, but I've seen Jews that look like Arabs.

"Afroasiatic." What a broad description. I don't really see what's so hard.  He was Jewish, so he looked Jewish. If he were black, he would not be considered as fully Jewish, and wouldn't be allowed to speak in the synagogue as he did sundry times in the gospel. He wasn't white, he wasn't black; he was middle-eastern, duh!  Wink


How does a Jew look like? The Jew you might have in mind is a European Jew which is a descendant of White European converts! We don't know how the original Jews looked like, but they weren't blond and blue eyed, that's for sure!

You've never seen black Jews? There are Jews in Ethiopia which have followed their religion since more than 2000 years! (The legend says 3000 years)
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« Reply #84 on: June 21, 2005, 05:12:06 AM »


OOOO YES! Very true. I can not think of the more ludicrious "theological" presumption. Off all thing that we can talk about, here is tried to be proven that Christ was black.
Yes, he was black but not just black, he was a female too, and not just female but a german female.





Lord, please come and finish with this.
Why is it okay to depict Jesus as a white man with blue eyes but not as a man of color!
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« Reply #85 on: June 21, 2005, 05:44:50 AM »

Why is it okay to depict Jesus as a white man with blue eyes but not as a man of color!

If you read the whole post, you will find my thought on this question.


It does seem to me, that here we are talking about Orthodox Iconography.




Why is it okay to depict Lord as a white man with blues eyes?
Who told you that it is okay?
I think you mistaken what Church thinks about this with any of thousands American Sects or modern Roman Catholic "Icons"; or even, maybe with that movie Dogma, with 'Buddy Jesus"...

Not man of color?
Lord was cerainly "darker" as most Jews are , that part of the world is not know to have many "Sweedish looking fellows".

But should it then be presented lika a black man with afro.

Again, I am talking about Orthodox Church.

Jews in Ethiopia, so, there are blond jews in USA, what does that have to do with Palestine?





I for one do not care how anyone outside see Him, their vision is just not clear.
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« Reply #86 on: June 21, 2005, 06:07:47 AM »

If you read the whole post, you will find my thought on this question.


It does seem to me, that here we are talking about Orthodox Iconography.
Yes, and of the general picture we have of Jesus.



Quote
Why is it okay to depict Lord as a white man with blues eyes?
Who told you that it is okay?
I think you mistaken what Church thinks about this with any of thousands American Sects or modern Roman Catholic "Icons"; or even, maybe with that movie Dogma, with 'Buddy Jesus"...
No one said it, but you see it in thousands of churches worldwide and im millions of homes... so it must be okay... especially as no one seems to question that blue-eyed and white Jesus and Mary.

Quote
Not man of color?
Lord was cerainly "darker" as most Jews are, that part of the world is now know to have many "Sweedish looking fellows".
Smiley Yes...

Quote
But should it then be presented lika a black man with afro, looking like a dude from Black-eyed peas, saying things like Yo nigger, sup dude, ya know wat am sayin'.


Again, I am talking about Orthodox Church.
Now I find this comment to be very offensive.. What has being black to do with saying "Yo nigger"? It's really sad that you seem to have this picture of black people.
I don't guess that the following priest would say anything like that:

and I also don't think that the following painting of Jesus implies any "Gangsta Nigga" thing:
http://www.prairienet.org/~dxmoges/lastsupper.jpg
The same goes for the following depiction of the theotokos:


I know, it doesnt' matter what color the Saviour of the World had, but if it really doesn't matter, then why not black? Wink
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« Reply #87 on: June 21, 2005, 06:09:20 AM »

why are the pics not working?
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« Reply #88 on: June 21, 2005, 06:27:14 AM »

Yes, and of the general picture we have of Jesus.
Who is WE? I do not know anyone who sees the Lord differently than I. I have never met or heard of anyone (until 777) that is questioning the way Church sees (and represent)  the Lord.


No one said it, but you see it in thousands of churches worldwide and im millions of homes... so it must be okay... especially as no one seems to question that blue-eyed and white Jesus and Mary.
I don't. I never seen Lord or Theotokos as blue eyed or white. Even when I was 7th Day Adventist in Serbia, all the pictures of them were showing them "darker"


I should think next time I open my piehole. Please forgive.


I know, it doesnt' matter what color the Saviour of the World had, but if it really doesn't matter, then why not black? Wink
I really do not care how anyone outside of the Orthodox Church presents the Lord. All of them are wrong, given that they do not have the fullnes of Tradition (look of the Lord, as presented in Iconography being a part of the Tradition). So, again, I will not go arround telling people that they are wrong. But at the same time, when someone comes to Orthodox Forum and insists that Lord was black, when the Church does not present Him that way[/b], but as rather Jewish from Palestine looking person, I do not see anything wrong with arguing the case. No Orthodox said that He was White with Blue eyes and that His name was really Swen and that He came from Gotenborg instead of Nazareth. But please, same way, His name is not N'glumba and He is not from Harare.

See my point?

If you are not an Orthodox, brother,  you can make Him to be pink with yellow spots for all I care. All I am saying is what THE CHURCH teaches. And on this forum, we tend to stick to what the Church says... thats why we are Orthodox.

Again, I really do not wish to be offensive.


If it is, I will delete my posts, that is not hard.

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« Reply #89 on: June 21, 2005, 06:49:47 AM »

Yes, and of the general picture we have of Jesus.
Who is WE? I do not know anyone who sees the Lord differently than I. I have never met or heard of anyone (until 777) that is questioning the way Church sees (and represent)  the Lord.
Yes that's exactly what I meant... We... all of us. I also never questioned it until it was pointed out to me.


Quote
No one said it, but you see it in thousands of churches worldwide and im millions of homes... so it must be okay... especially as no one seems to question that blue-eyed and white Jesus and Mary.
I don't. I never seen Lord or Theotokos as blue eyed or white. Even when I was 7th Day Adventist in Serbia, all the pictures of them were showing them "darker"
Really? hmm.. Well I've seen a lot of Icons with a blond and blue-eyed Jesus and Mary. In Ethiopian many Ethiopian churches and homes there is this one, I guess Russian icon ( http://www.ethiopianorthodoxchurch.org/images/mariam_2.jpg ) where both are blue eyed and Jesus is blond.


Quote
Now I find this comment to be very offensive.. What has being black to do with saying "Yo nigger"? It's really sad that you seem to have this picture of black people.
Brother, I really did not mean it to be offensive. I have watched doco on Mtv couple of days ago about Black eyed peas, that why I think that picture that M777 posted looked like a guy from BEP, and he did say those things atleast 20 times in 15 minutes. Now why it is not offensive for him to say it, and it is offensive for me to use those words when saying that the picture reminds me that guy?
Okay, it isn't offensive of you to say this in connection with the black eyed peas guy... but not with a Jesus depicted as a black man with dreads or an Afro! Jesus is Jesus, nothing changes if he's depicted like that! And well I guess that there are more than enough stupid people with blond hair and blue eyes I could make a connection with... I hope you know what I mean.


Quote
I know, it doesnt' matter what color the Saviour of the World had, but if it really doesn't matter, then why not black? Wink
I really do not care how anyone outside of the Orthodox Church presents the Lord. All of them are wrong, given that they do not have the fullnes of Tradition (look of the Lord, as presented in Iconography being a part of the Tradition). So, again, I will not go arround telling people that they are wrong. But at the same time, when someone comes to Orthodox Forum and insists that Lord was black, when the Church does not present Him that way, but rather Jewish from Palestine looking person, I do not see anything wrong with arguing the case. No, Orthodox said that He was White with Blue eyes and that His name was really Swen and that He came from Gotenborg instead of Nazareth. But please, same way, His name is not N'glumba and He is not from Harare.
Yes, this is absolutely true... but even in Orthodox tradition there are different ways of portraying our Lord and Saviour and his Blessed Mother. look at http://www.jerusalem-gifts.com/index.html?target=Orthodox_Russian_GiftsWood_Icons.html for example. On some of them Jesus is blond. So the tradition doesn't seem to say anything about the colour of Jesus and Mary (be it eye, hair or skin color)... does it? Well maybe it's different in the different orthodox churches...

Quote
See my point?

If you are not an Orthodox, brother,  you He can make Him to be pink with yellow spots for all I care. All I am saying is what THE CHURCH teaches. And on this forum, we tend to stick to what the Church says... thats why we are Orthodox.
Yes I see your point. I am not saying "change all the depictions of Jesus to black"... I'm just saying that if he can be depicted as blond and blue eyed, which is historically incorrect if Jesus looked as all the other people around him, then why isn't it okay to depict him black. The church doesn't seem to have a teaching on that, does it?
And yes, I guess I'm Orthodox (although I don't know very much about my religion... I want to learn and that's why I'm here...)  Wink
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« Reply #90 on: June 21, 2005, 07:42:09 AM »

Yes that's exactly what I meant... We... all of us. I also never questioned it until it was pointed out to me.
Not me, nor anyone I know.
It could be many, but not in my life.

Quote
Really? hmm.. Well I've seen a lot of Icons with a blond and blue-eyed Jesus and Mary. In Ethiopian many Ethiopian churches and homes there is this one, I guess Russian icon ( http://www.ethiopianorthodoxchurch.org/images/mariam_2.jpg ) where both are blue eyed and Jesus is blond.

As far as I am aware (maybe some Russian Orthodox can correct me) some Russian Icons from either XVIII or XIX centuries have been deemed "overly influenced' by the west; mostly due to Peter "The Greats" wish to "westernise Russia". Now I am not sure about that; but I am sure that as far as The Orthodox Church is concerned, Lord was not white with blue eyes. Now, in the Orthodox Church Catholicity of the Church goes long way (that is what was believed by the whole Church, everywhere and always). So, those Russian Icons (and some of them do go against rules of Iconography) do not represent what is held by the Church, and indeed what is held by the Russian Orthodox Church.

I am not an expert, but I think that the way to clean up the Church from heterodox ideas is not to develop new heterodox ideas, but to return to Orthodox ones, whether we talk about Icons or Theological Methodology, or whatever else.

Quote
Okay, it isn't offensive of you to say this in connection with the black eyed peas guy... but not with a Jesus depicted as a black man with dreads or an Afro! Jesus is Jesus, nothing changes if he's depicted like that! And well I guess that there are more than enough stupid people with blond hair and blue eyes I could make a connection with... I hope you know what I mean.

I agree, but exactly for this reason, I do not think that Orthodox Church has to become a field where me and you will argue about colour of the Lord, because I am a Serb and you an Ethiopian... LOL
Lets have a war, and who wins he gets to choose! Grin

Please, trust me, I am the first one to argue the point that Lord was not White with blue eyes; that does make me angry. It comes mostly from RC and Protestants. Now, I am not the person that can talk about these groups. I do feel negative towards alot of things that come from the west. Their Religious Art is one of those things. Especially what comes from USA as far as Religious Expression of non-Orthodox is concerned.

Quote
Yes, this is absolutely true... but even in Orthodox tradition there are different ways of portraying our Lord and Saviour and his Blessed Mother. look at http://www.jerusalem-gifts.com/index.html?target=Orthodox_Russian_GiftsWood_Icons.html for example.
On some of them Jesus is blond. So the tradition doesn't seem to say anything about the colour of Jesus and Mary (be it eye, hair or skin color)... does it? Well maybe it's different in the different orthodox churches...

Again, I do not find those Russian Icons (or any other Orthodox Icons of "that western feel" to them) to be Orthodox, that is done the way that it was done at any time BEFORE Peter the Great.

Quote
The church doesn't seem to have a teaching on that, does it?
Well, it does. It is called Orthodox Iconography. Now I am not sure about the rules, but it seems logical to me that those rules MUST BE VERY CLEAR. Why? Well, if for 1800 years all Orthodox Iconographers practiced Iconography one way, and the it was suddenly changed (by some in minority of places) then it must be obvious that these "some" have done it wrong. It comes (as far as I know) from Russian Tzar Peter the Great, who wanted to westernise Russia, because he thought that Russians were to backward, so he introduced many Protestant (Lutheran) and Roman Catholic ideas into the country. Some of them, find their way into Orthodox Church. But this does not mean that all Orthodox (and all Russian Orthodox) supported/support this trend.

Quote
And yes, I guess I'm Orthodox (although I don't know very much about my religion... I want to learn and that's why I'm here...)  Wink
Well, that is great, I love making friends by arguing with them and insulting them...I am an idiot...
I really apologise if anything that I wrote is offensive.
I deleted some of my stupid and idiotic coments (I am sorry I wrote that comparison  with BEP in the first place),
 
I should've thought about what I write before I write it.
Please forgive if there is anything that I wrote that offends you.
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« Reply #91 on: June 21, 2005, 10:51:53 AM »

Like Stefan said, those 'icons' that were posted were heavily influenced by Tsar Peter the Not-So-Great's Westernization of Russia.

http://ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/icons/data/pantokrator.gif - That is a traditional Russian icon of Christ.  And look!  He's got olive skin and brown hair!  What ethnic group does that sound like?

http://www.templegallery.com/pages/master/84_999/full.jpg - And this is a traditional Russian icon of the Theotokos.  Once again, she and her Son both have olive skin and dark hair!

If you're going to reference Orthodox Icons, please reference icons done according to the established schools and not the horrible oil paintings that Peter the Not-So-Great pushed on Russia.  If you're going to reference those, then I guess that means you can draw an icon of the Father, since that school is famous for doing such a thing...  Roll Eyes

-Philip.
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« Reply #92 on: June 21, 2005, 05:56:17 PM »

Hey SP:

Not being a DP, you have about as much connection to the stari kraj as both me and my wife.ÂÂ  My wife's Djed fought with Draza and Momcilo Djujic, yet he was always proud of his American citizenship.ÂÂ  You are a posturing kid- a punk.ÂÂ  Does emphasizing your Serbianness makes you feel special at school?ÂÂ  A standout in a crowd of pasty Brits?ÂÂ  (You are different and special, a proud warrior of the Serbian race. Blah blah blah.)ÂÂ  You are a subject of the British Crown and judging from your prose, an ungrateful — although not necessarily adept- recipient of the gifts of her educational system.ÂÂ  

Serbs are Slavs and are genetically no different from other Slavs.ÂÂ  

How about you move back to the Selo, brale.ÂÂ  Don’t you have some sheep to herd?ÂÂ  Or if you prefer, you can be unemployed and bitter, hanging out in Kafane with your cell phone and big gold necklace.ÂÂ  

Budala.

Im an ungrateful, bitter, unemployed punk that should go back to herding sheep?  My effort to keep my commentary purely factual obviously has affected you deeply.  Since you have no facts of your own to respond with, you manifest your intolerance of all view points different to your own by insulting people.  I will respond in greater length when I have more time.
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« Reply #93 on: June 21, 2005, 06:00:26 PM »

You speak Djubre. A third generation upper middle class brat claiming his ethnic heritage. *yawn*ÂÂ  Roll Eyes I would love to drop you off in the middle of the former Yugoslavia and watch you survive. Maybe I'll call NBC and have it made into a reality show.
Edited for error.
Again, absolutely no logic or facts, just another rant where the only Serbian you use is to insult me by telling me i speak rubbish.  Try and put together a coherent argument, so i can respond to it, you have written absolutely nothing of any use.
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« Reply #94 on: June 21, 2005, 06:00:41 PM »

Frankly, I didn't feel like reading this whole thing so sorry if someone has allready said this.  Undecided

Jesus was neither black or white, he was born in Jerusalem and he was an Israelite. Of course God would have made him look like every other Israelite, right?  Huh  Undecided

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« Reply #95 on: June 21, 2005, 06:00:50 PM »

Like Stefan said, those 'icons' that were posted were heavily influenced by Tsar Peter the Not-So-Great's Westernization of Russia.

http://ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/icons/data/pantokrator.gif - That is a traditional Russian icon of Christ.  And look!  He's got olive skin and brown hair!  What ethnic group does that sound like?

http://www.templegallery.com/pages/master/84_999/full.jpg - And this is a traditional Russian icon of the Theotokos.  Once again, she and her Son both have olive skin and dark hair!

If you're going to reference Orthodox Icons, please reference icons done according to the established schools and not the horrible oil paintings that Peter the Not-So-Great pushed on Russia.  If you're going to reference those, then I guess that means you can draw an icon of the Father, since that school is famous for doing such a thing...  Roll Eyes

-Philip.
Thank you very much! I've learned a lot! Also in Ethiopia, the traditional way of depicting our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ is neither blond and blue eyed nor Black... So maybe we follow similar traditions (although the iconography is totally different).
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« Reply #96 on: June 21, 2005, 06:08:29 PM »

Quote
As far as I am aware (maybe some Russian Orthodox can correct me) some Russian Icons from either XVIII or XIX centuries have been deemed "overly influenced' by the west; mostly due to Peter "The Greats" wish to "westernise Russia". Now I am not sure about that; but I am sure that as far as The Orthodox Church is concerned, Lord was not white with blue eyes. Now, in the Orthodox Church Catholicity of the Church goes long way (that is what was believed by the whole Church, everywhere and always). So, those Russian Icons (and some of them do go against rules of Iconography) do not represent what is held by the Church, and indeed what is held by the Russian Orthodox Church.
Thanks! I've just learned something new!

Quote
I am not an expert, but I think that the way to clean up the Church from heterodox ideas is not to develop new heterodox ideas, but to return to Orthodox ones, whether we talk about Icons or Theological Methodology, or whatever else.
Yes, I absolutely agree with you!

Quote
I agree, but exactly for this reason, I do not think that Orthodox Church has to become a field where me and you will argue about colour of the Lord, because I am a Serb and you an Ethiopian... LOL
Lets have a war, and who wins he gets to choose! Grin
Serbians and Ethiopians fighting... hmm.. the last time we fought we fought side by side against the fascists... I don't know if you are aware of that common history of ours...
but I know what you meant...  Wink  Grin

Quote
Well, that is great, I love making friends by arguing with them and insulting them...I am an idiot...
Haha... well, it's okay... you just should be a bit more sensitive at times...  Wink

Quote
Please forgive if there is anything that I wrote that offends you.
Yes, there were things that offended me... but I forgive you... everyone makes mistakes...
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« Reply #97 on: June 21, 2005, 06:31:03 PM »

people can tend to impose their unconscious stereotypes on sacred subjects.

No disrespect, Beewolf, but I'm wondering about "impose".  As the message of the Gospel spread around the globe to other nations and people, it's a very Human thing to make some kind of art/representation.   Someone would mostly likely use the style of art that is that of the time and country.  Japanese depictions of St. Mary and the Christ child that I have seen are in the Japanese style for example.  Ones from different peoples in Africa don't look like they're from Asia or Europe. How is that "imposing" as opposed to bringing Christianity into their land/culture?

Ebor
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« Reply #98 on: June 21, 2005, 11:39:17 PM »

No disrespect, Beewolf, but I'm wondering about "impose".  As the message of the Gospel spread around the globe to other nations and people, it's a very Human thing to make some kind of art/representation.  ÃƒÆ’‚ Someone would mostly likely use the style of art that is that of the time and country.  Japanese depictions of St. Mary and the Christ child that I have seen are in the Japanese style for example.  Ones from different peoples in Africa don't look like they're from Asia or Europe. How is that "imposing" as opposed to bringing Christianity into their land/culture?

Ebor

I apologise if i seemed narrow by using the word 'impose' but i meant it in its most straightforward sense, i imply no value judgement, merely the common use - to lay something over something else. I realise that people often use the word in the sense of exerting an 'influence over' something in a negative way. I agree with your rather wonderful point of the universality of Christ, Christianity being a truly trans-cultural religion, Christ having died for all people in all cultures. Thanks for your reply Ebor it is very apt. As long as we can all think outside of the stereotypes of our age/culuture we shall be very rich in our understanding and appreciation of the rich diversity of the Church.

Blessings Smiley
« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 11:42:02 PM by beewolf » Logged

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« Reply #99 on: June 22, 2005, 12:20:29 AM »


 I have never met or heard of anyone (until 777) that is questioning the way Church sees (and represent)  the Lord.

I am not questioning the traditional depiction of Christ. It is certainly an improvement on the christianized image of Apollo. I just happen to think that my avatar picture looks cool.
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« Reply #100 on: June 22, 2005, 12:48:57 AM »

I am not questioning the traditional depiction of Christ. It is certainly an improvement on the christianized image of Apollo. I just happen to think that my avatar picture looks cool.

I am sorry for misuderstanding, I thought you were questioning. This not being the case, I apologize.
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« Reply #101 on: June 22, 2005, 12:55:59 AM »

There is nothing to be sorry about. I do find it an interesting possibility that Jesus was a man of color but it is not something especially important to dwell on.
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