OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 01, 2014, 04:28:45 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Fear of a Black Jesus  (Read 11439 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« on: June 16, 2005, 03:10:38 PM »

(The title of this thread is an allusion to Public Enemy's album, Fear of a Black Planet.)

Since I've changed my avatar to a black, dreadlocked Jesus, some have inquired as to whether or not I believe Jesus to have been a man of color. From what I have read, this is a considerable possibility. Firstly, in the oldest artistic depictions of the Madonna and child, they are both of black skin.

The African American Biblical Scholar Cain Hope Felder makes the case that we should see the Middle East of Jesus' day as a kind of eastern extension of Africa, using archaeological and linguistic evidence to demonstrate the interaction between these peoples in these regions.
Jesus' general ancestry could also give evidence that he was a black man. A key element in the narrative of the Hebrew Bible is the Hebrews' move to, sojourn in and liberation from Egypt. Felder claims that they were a mixed race of Afro-Asiatics. Moses had a Cushite, or Ethiopian wife (Num.12:1); a son of Aaron, the one who begot the priestly line, was Phinehas (Ex.6:25), which in Egyptian means "the Nubian", referring to the area of Sudan or Ethiopia (Jer.38:7).
In Matthew's genealogy of Jesus, four Afroasiatic women are mentioned; Rahab. Tamar, Ruth and Bathsheba. (Matt. 1.2-17)
In both Christian and non-Christian texts, Jesus is placed in Egypt during his formative years.

"If the truth be insisted upon, the family stock of Jesus himself was none other than Afroasiatic. His parents probably resembled the typical darker Palestinian, Egyptian or Yemenite of today; many African-Americans would have similar features . . . It may not be going too far to suggest that the "Sweet Lil' Jesus Boy" of the Negro Spiritual is probably most accurately described as an Afro-Asiatic or "a person of color." While the Negro spiritual intones: "We didn't know who you was," it paradoxically reminds many modern Christians that what Jesus actually looked like may come as a surprise.
http://www.ntgateway.com/courses/jesus/colour.htm

In the New Testament, the only description of Jesus' skin color is given in Revelation 1:15 -
"His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters…"

If Jesus were a black man among a predominantly lighter skinned population, perhaps this would explain why His peers found no beauty in Him:
Isaiah 53:2 - "For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, [there is] no beauty that we should desire him."

The oldest depictions of Christ are not of the classic Mediterranean-looking figure of Byzantine iconography but as an adaptation of the Greek God, Apollo in the form of the Good Shepherd:


As for Jesus being black or not, I do not have a position considering that His skin color is not too important. However, I do find this to be a rather interesting topic.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2005, 03:22:18 PM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
cizinec
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 941


There ain't no way but the hard way.


« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2005, 03:24:10 PM »

I'm afraid the Black Jesus will put the voodoo on me.

Actually you should say, "African-American" Jesus, since "negro" and "black" are not really currently acceptable.

Did you know that "doubting" St. Thomas was Hispanic?ÂÂ  

The other disciples didn't like him much because he was Mexican.ÂÂ  When Jesus came back and everyone was saying, "It's Jesus!"ÂÂ  St. Thomas was saying "Si!" but all the dumb anglo apostles thought he was wanting to SEE.ÂÂ  Jesus couldn't get them to shut up, because he was African-American and Anglos don't listen to them either, so he just acted like he showed St. Thomas so they could move on to the next topic.ÂÂ  We know he is Mexican because on the icons he's always wearing a sombrero and carrying tequila.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2005, 03:24:53 PM by cizinec » Logged

"Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery."
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2005, 03:32:17 PM »

In the New Testament, the only description of Jesus' skin color is given in Revelation 1:15 -
"His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters…"

So logically following your line of reasoning here, this must mean Jesus had a speech impediment. Did he talk like a little kid with his mouth full? How could people understand him if he talked like the "sound of many waters"? Maybe he drooled as little?
Logged
cizinec
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 941


There ain't no way but the hard way.


« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2005, 03:34:21 PM »

No, TomS, geeze.  Don't be so sarcastic.  It should read "and his voice was like Barry White" although St. John had never even heard of Barry White so he wouldn't know.

If we can just step out of our literal minds for a minute . . .
Logged

"Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery."
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2005, 04:15:12 PM »

Given that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and fathered by God, then His DNA would have been either 100% or 50% specially created by God, which could have made Him of any skin color.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
cizinec
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 941


There ain't no way but the hard way.


« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2005, 04:19:12 PM »

Okay, I know this isn't an icon, but I found this painting of St. Thomas.  You can clearly see the sombrero and tequila in this depiction as well.  I'm not sure why he's balancing the tequila on the spear.  Maybe it's some sort of Western symbolism (drinking game?).

Logged

"Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery."
SeanMc
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 203


« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2005, 04:59:21 PM »

Given how the Jews religiously guarded their "bloodline," I doubt that Jesus would be black with dreads. I've never seen a Black Jew, but I've seen Jews that look like Arabs.

Quote
"If the truth be insisted upon, the family stock of Jesus himself was none other than Afroasiatic.

"Afroasiatic." What a broad description. I don't really see what's so hard.  He was Jewish, so he looked Jewish. If he were black, he would not be considered as fully Jewish, and wouldn't be allowed to speak in the synagogue as he did sundry times in the gospel. He wasn't white, he wasn't black; he was middle-eastern, duh!  Wink

Logged
Sabbas
Drink from your own wells
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 503

St. Glicherie True Orthodox Church of Romania


« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2005, 05:41:01 PM »

Given how the Jews religiously guarded their "bloodline," I doubt that Jesus would be black with dreads. I've never seen a Black Jew, but I've seen Jews that look like Arabs.

"Afroasiatic." What a broad description. I don't really see what's so hard. He was Jewish, so he looked Jewish. If he were black, he would not be considered as fully Jewish, and wouldn't be allowed to speak in the synagogue as he did sundry times in the gospel. He wasn't white, he wasn't black; he was middle-eastern, duh! Wink

While I do not believe that the human nature of our Lord came from the Negroid or Capoid race (both Black) I am still intrigued when I read this verse

St.John 8:48
48The Jews answered him, "Aren't we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?"

From what I understand the Samaritans looked different than most Jews at this time due to mixing with Syrians and modern day Samaritans look exactly the same as Arabs. It is interesting that our Lord would be called a Samaritan it he looked exactly like the 'pure' Jews who lived around Jerusalem. I think that the Jews were actually slandering our Lord by saying that he is a Samaritan. Sort of like when white racists refer to another whiteman as no better than a ni**er. But still part of me wonders if there was something more.

To answer your question: Yes the black Jesus terrifies me, the same as an eskimo, or blond Nordic Jesus terrifies me.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2005, 05:43:11 PM by Sabbas » Logged

www.hungersite.com  Ãƒâ€šÃ‚  www.freedonation.com you can donate up to 20 times at freedonation.  http://www.pomog.org/ has online 1851 Sir Lancelot C.L. Brenton English translation of Septuagint.http://www.cnrs.ubc.ca/greekbible/ Original Koine Septuagint and New Testament.
Serbian Patriot
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 200


« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2005, 05:44:34 PM »

I am one of those that enquired about your avatar.  If your avatar is not an icon (which i do not believe it to be, not least because Jesus is muscular and topless), then I think you would agree that it is un-Orthodox.  What I am trying to say is that if Jesus, or a saint for that matter, is not depicted according to certain rules and knowledge, then that depiction is not Orthodox.  I was discussing this with an iconographer shortly after Easter and he made it clear to me that he was not allowed to depict saints or Jesus in any way that he wished, but that he must fast, pray and read about the lives of the relevant saint.  It is not a purely artistic pursuit.  He told me of the story of a painter that was hired to decorate a hospital wall in Serbia with the patron saints of the hospital.  He depicted 2 wise looking old men.  Imagine the embarrasment when he had finished when he was informed that these saints had been martyred in their early twenties. ÂÂ
The following quote came from this web page:
http://www.goholycross.org/studies/studies_icons.html

'icon painters are not free to adapt their own aesthetic sentiments, but the mind of the Church'

I notice also that you quote the opinions of a biblical scholar who i assume is not an Orthodox authority on the subject.  Furthermore even he is only guessing, dare i say maybe wishfully thinking, it is extremely far from proven fact.  You also quote an ambiguos bible verse.  Do you not think that if it had the meaning that you are taking from it, the rest of the Church would have known about it a long time ago.  Without trying to demean you in any way, I find this a common practice of protestants who each have their own interpretation and philosophy and are almost a mini-pope unto themselves.  Hence the mass of protestant sects which I am met with every day, each claiming to be the true one.  We must be guided by the teachings of the Holy Fathers, rather than creating our own rather innovative interpretations.
Logged

Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,421



« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2005, 05:46:03 PM »

What are the "Oldest artistic depictions"?  Depending on the materials used, the paints might have darkened over the centuries. Just a thought.

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
yBeayf
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 708

/etc


« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2005, 05:47:35 PM »

Quote
I've never seen a Black Jew, but I've seen Jews that look like Arabs.

Behold: Beta Israel!

Here are some pictures.
Logged
Nigula Qian Zishi
Administrator Emeritus, Retired Deacon, Inactive Poster, Active Orthodox Christian, Father, and Husband
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Posts: 1,836


我美丽的妻子和我。

nstanosheck
WWW
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2005, 05:48:51 PM »

Actually you should say, "African-American" Jesus, since "negro" and "black" are not really currently acceptable.

Of course he would not have been an -America either since he did not reside in America unless you listen to the Mormons!  The first icons of Christ, by his own disciple do not show him black although some have darkened because of age. Descriptions given in writings do not describe him as very dark skinned either.
Logged

在基督         My Original Blog
尼古拉         My Facebook Profile
前执事         My Twitter Page
Tallitot
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jewish
Jurisdiction: United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism
Posts: 2,614



WWW
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2005, 05:50:36 PM »

TomS and Cizinec, I understand that your intent is light and humerous, but bear in mind that you refering to Our Lord and one of His apostles.
Logged

Proverbs 22:7
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,458


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2005, 05:51:32 PM »

There is no way I will use the stupid term African American, unless the person is born in Africa. Since when is black not acceptable? Most black people I know call Caucasians white, and even on forms I fill out to this day I see black and white. The most offensive for me was when a form said African American and underneath it, White.  What a double standard. On my wedding application to make a point I did not select white for race, I selected other and filled in European American. LOL
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
yBeayf
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 708

/etc


« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2005, 05:58:03 PM »

Quote
There is no way I will use the stupid term African American, unless the person is born in Africa. Since when is black not acceptable?

Because, properly speaking, there is a difference between black and African-American. A black person is anyone with black skin, whose ancestors come predominantly from sub-Saharan Africa. African-Americans are the descendants of black slaves who were imported to the United States, and are better considered an ethnic group than a race. They have their own dialect, music, food, customs, and folkways. African-American is a valid descriptor for them, just as Italian-American is a valid descriptor for my family's ethnic group, even though none of us were born in Italy.

African-Americans are black, but not all blacks are African-American, just as Italian-Americans are white, but not all whites are Italian-American.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2005, 05:59:01 PM by Beayf » Logged
SeanMc
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 203


« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2005, 06:39:34 PM »

Just call me Anglo-Irish Canadian.  Wink
Logged
cizinec
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 941


There ain't no way but the hard way.


« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2005, 08:27:16 PM »

Quote
To answer your question: Yes the black Jesus terrifies me, the same as an eskimo, or blond Nordic Jesus terrifies me.

It's the voodoo that scares me.

Quote
TomS and Cizinec, I understand that your intent is light and humerous, but bear in mind that you refering to Our Lord and one of His apostles.

I'm not mocking Our Lord or one of the apostles.  I'm being sarcastic about this subject.  Sometimes humor can say something a lot better than solemn, serious discourse. 

Let's all be wooden statues, shall we?

This is not an icon and does not express Orthodoxy.  bla bla bla.

I can't do that.

Our Lord wasn't a Rasta voodoo prince.  St. Thomas wasn't from Mexico.  Do you really think I'm mocking St. Thomas and not this thread?  You take this forum way more seriously than I do.

I've seen blonde icons from Russia and black icons from Ethiopia.  They are still Orthodox.  You want a bleck Christ?  Go get an Ethiopian icon.  Even those are lightish.
Logged

"Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery."
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2005, 09:59:13 PM »

If your avatar is not an icon (which i do not believe it to be, not least because Jesus is muscular and topless), then I think you would agree that it is un-Orthodox. 

As noted in my first post, the earliest depictions of the Madonna and child have a black Mary and black Jesus.
As for Jesus being muscular, I bet that a good carpenter like Him would be a little ripped.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Cephas
There is no spoon.
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic Orthodox
Jurisdiction: See of St. Mark
Posts: 288

γνῶθισε αυτόν


« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2005, 11:03:13 PM »

As noted in my first post, the earliest depictions of the Madonna and child have a black Mary and black Jesus.
As for Jesus being muscular, I bet that a good carpenter like Him would be a little ripped.

â€Â  Irini nem ehmot â€Â

Perhaps our Lord may have been muscular.  It is true that being a carpenter is phsycially demanding.  But I wonder sometimes.  Christ did fast a lot.  He often spoke about the importance of prayer and fasting, so as such, I'm sure He practiced what He preached.  So, He certainly may have been somewhat muscular, but I doubt He would have been "built" or "ripped".  Fasting tends to trim a person down.

Prayers please.
Logged

Cephas 

"But he was wounded for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the punishment that made us whole, and by his bruises we are healed."
-- Isaiah 53:5

"He who knows himself knows God"
-- Pi Nishti Abba Antony
Bono Vox
The Orthodox Bagpiper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 1,620



« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2005, 11:35:34 PM »

I personally like to think that he was scottish Kiss

bagpiper
Logged

Troparion - Tone 1:
O Sebastian, spurning the assemblies of the wicked,You gathered the wise martyrs Who with you cast down the enemy; And standing worthily before the throne of God, You gladden those who cry to you:Glory to him who has strengthened you! Glory to him who has granted you a crown!
dantxny
OC.net Mineshaft gap
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Russian
Posts: 769



« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2005, 12:00:43 AM »

Quote
African-Americans are black, but not all blacks are African-American, just as Italian-Americans are white, but not all whites are Italian-American.

I don't know how much I'd go for that standard on African-Americans.  I have a white friend and she was born and lived in South Africa to S. African parents for ten years and is now an American citizen . . . She considers hereself an African-American  Smiley
Logged

"If you give the average Frenchman a choice between a reforming president who would plug the country's huge deficit and a good cheese, he would probably opt for the cheese." - Stephen Clarke
I think the French may be on to something here.
yBeayf
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 708

/etc


« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2005, 12:25:04 AM »

Quote
I have a white friend and she was born and lived in South Africa to S. African parents for ten years and is now an American citizen . . . She considers hereself an African-American

She may consider herself one, but she's not. You're missing my point. African-Americans are an ethnic group, with their own ethnic dialect, foods, manners, and so forth. African-American doesn't mean someone who is from Africa, but someone who is the descendant of black Africans who were enslaved in the US prior to emancipation.

Jesse Jackson is an African-American. So is Bill Cosby, and Michael Jordan, and Condoleeza Rice, and the kid who lived down the street from me when I was growing up. Hakeem Olajuwon isn't an African-American, Colin Powell isn't an African-American (strictly speaking; his parents were Jamaican immigrants), and my Jewish co-worker from South Africa is not an African-American, and neither is your friend.
Logged
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,421



« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2005, 12:32:47 AM »

As noted in my first post, the earliest depictions of the Madonna and child have a black Mary and black Jesus.
As for Jesus being muscular, I bet that a good carpenter like Him would be a little ripped.

And I will ask again: What are the depictions you refer to?  Might we please have some references?   What are the sources you have gotten this information from?

It is quite possible due to age or dirt or other things that the materials used in these depictions have darkened over time and were not "black" originally.

And as a side note disagreeing with a point is not the same as "fearing' it. I know you were referring to an album..but fear is not automatically present.

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,458


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2005, 12:35:34 AM »

Beayf,

My wife is a Slovak-American because she was born there. Her brother is not a Slovak-American because he was born here. He is an American of Slovak descent. I will only extend the hyphen to an immigrant.

Anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
dantxny
OC.net Mineshaft gap
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Russian
Posts: 769



« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2005, 12:37:42 AM »

Oh no, I understand your point perfectly . . . I just happen to dissaggree with you.  Wink
Now, if you want to go by ethinic group, yes I do aggree there.  African Americans do have a distinct ethinicity that is quite different from other blacks.  So perhpas I did speak too soon and did misunderstand you.

However, my point (and please not that when I said that, a little sarcasim was involved) was how we as a nation define the race as African-American. Thus, my comment of my South African friend.  In other words, I'm merely aggreeing with the fact that it's silly to call blacks African-American as a race. 

BTW, do we have a  button so I can correct my pitiful spelling?
Daniel
Logged

"If you give the average Frenchman a choice between a reforming president who would plug the country's huge deficit and a good cheese, he would probably opt for the cheese." - Stephen Clarke
I think the French may be on to something here.
yBeayf
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 708

/etc


« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2005, 01:23:31 AM »

Quote
My wife is a Slovak-American because she was born there. Her brother is not a Slovak-American because he was born here. He is an American of Slovak descent. I will only extend the hyphen to an immigrant.

Feel free, but just know you're going against the well-established usage of such ethnic groups as Irish-Americans, Italian-Americans, German-Americans, Polish-Americans, African-Americans, and so forth.

I'm also curious if birth is the sole criterion you use in determining whether to hyphenate or not. Would you classify my grandmother (other, non-Italian side of the family) as a German-American? She was born and raised in a German-speaking family in the Ozark mountains. Her family had been here for several generations, but still retained their German language and culture. Is the essence of being "American" simply citizenship? Were families like my grandmother's, or the populations living today in the southwestern border states who speak only Spanish and consider themselves part of a greater Mexico, "American", or were / are they Mexicans or Germans who simply happened to reside in America? If the latter, then how is it inaccurate to use the hyphenated "<ethnic group>-American" to describe one's ethnic culture? After all, in multi-national countries like Russia, groups like the Volga Germans are российский, but not русский. Why should America be any different?

The nucleus of historical culture has been those populations who came over here from Britain in one of the four great waves of migration; they are our equivalent to русский. As other ethnic groups have migrated, they have retained their own culture and identity to a greater or lesser degree; they may remain like the "российские", or be Americanized to a greater or lesser degree, or may even lose their distinct identity altogether and just consider themselves "American". If the former, why not refer to the non-American portion of their identity with a hyphen?
« Last Edit: June 17, 2005, 01:42:34 AM by Beayf » Logged
prodromos
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,463

Sydney, Australia


« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2005, 01:46:47 AM »


As noted in my first post, the earliest depictions of the Madonna and child have a black Mary and black Jesus.


The earliest depictions of Mary and the child Jesus are indeed black, however what you fail to note is that the entirety of the icon is black because of age. Thus you are painting a false picture, if you will excuse the pun Grin

John
Logged
eleni
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 155



« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2005, 01:51:08 AM »

Here is an Article I found on what the Antichrist will look like........
A potrait .....

http://www.geocities.com/kitezhgrad/prophets/sallman.html

IX
helen

Lord have mercy on me a sinner
Logged

A Prudent man foresees evil and hides himself;
The simple pass on and are punished.
-Proverbs27:12-
sin_vladimirov
ANAXIOS!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 477

ICXC NIKA


« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2005, 02:06:46 AM »

I have an Icon of a Lord. I imagine Him to be like He is presented in that Icon.
He is not blond with blues eyes as presented in USA protestant pictures (that I had of him when I was a SDA).
On that point, I think that he was darker as some Jews are.
Not African-american, not Jamaican or Eskimo. I dont think that he was blond either nor white for that matter nor he had stubbies, footy shorts and a slouch hat and said G'day mate. I dont think that he was a Serbian looking either nor Russian.

He was a ordinary looking Jew and there was no beauty in him (as Prophet Isaiah would say). I do believe that majority of Orthodox Icons have right way of presenting Him. It comes from those who have seen Him,  heard Him, and followed Him; just like the rest of our faith.

Now I really do not care what people through faith imagine Him to be.

He is my Lord and my God and no one in this universe is close to Him.
There is not a day that goes by that I find more and more reasons to Love Him and want to be with Him and those who followed him and still do.

I for one, will never judge an old lady from Bronx and tell her that her Jesus is not black if that is the way she sees Him. Nor will I judge some Johan Gustafsen from top of Sweeden for seing Him blond with blue eyes. Nor will I judge Protestants for seing Him the way they do.

I for one care for only one thing and that thing has nothing to do with the way that  our Salvation looks to ur souls  but with the way our souls look like to our Salvation.

Please forgive me.

« Last Edit: June 17, 2005, 02:08:51 AM by sin_vladimirov » Logged

Lord have mercy.
jmbejdl
Count-Palatine James the Spurious of Giggleswick on the Naze
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Romania
Posts: 1,480


Great Martyr St. John the New of Suceava


« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2005, 04:11:52 AM »

Matthew,

Just one brief point (and let me first say I agree that Christ's race is not an issue at all), but I noticed you brought up that tired issue of Egypt. The 'all the early Christians were black' brigade also usually bring this up in reference to St. Paul as he is supposed to have been mistaken for an Egyptian. I'd like to point out three things I always point out to them:

  • The ancient Egyptians were not negroid, as shown quite clearly by archaeological remains and their art. Negroids come from sub-Saharan Africa and though there were some in the Egyptian empire never made up a majority.
  • By the time of the early Church, Egypt had been ruled by the Ptolemaic dynasty for quite some time and was pretty hellenised. That means that their originally middle-eastern type population had been diluted by Greek European immigrants.
  • And finally, there was and had been for quite some time (hence the reason for the LXX) a large group of Greek-speaking diaspora Jews in Egypt. It seems almost certain, therefore, that not only would Christ have grown up amongst this group, but that St. Paul was probably mistaken for one of these Jews also (on account of his use of Greek, I imagine).

It should be fairly obvious, then, that Christ's connection to Egypt argues nothing for Christ being black and I'd argue that the wish to portray Him so is nothing more than misplaced racial pride at best and racism at worst (depending on the group involved - not trying to say anything about you Matthew). I'm not afraid of your black Christ picture, I just find it rather distastefully painted (and I'd say the same if He looked Germanic) and would rather see an icon. Feel free to disagree, though.

Cizinec,

I for one loved the humour and didn't think you were mocking Christ or St. Thomas. Some people need to get a sense of perspective (it reminds me of that foolish Christ never laughed thread). Keep up the good work and never, ever stop bringing us all back down to earth with a dose of sarcastic humour.

James
Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
Serbian Patriot
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 200


« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2005, 05:59:18 AM »

Matthew,

Just one brief point (and let me first say I agree that Christ's race is not an issue at all), but I noticed you brought up that tired issue of Egypt. The 'all the early Christians were black' brigade also usually bring this up in reference to St. Paul as he is supposed to have been mistaken for an Egyptian. I'd like to point out three things I always point out to them:

  • The ancient Egyptians were not negroid, as shown quite clearly by archaeological remains and their art. Negroids come from sub-Saharan Africa and though there were some in the Egyptian empire never made up a majority.
  • By the time of the early Church, Egypt had been ruled by the Ptolemaic dynasty for quite some time and was pretty hellenised. That means that their originally middle-eastern type population had been diluted by Greek European immigrants.
  • And finally, there was and had been for quite some time (hence the reason for the LXX) a large group of Greek-speaking diaspora Jews in Egypt. It seems almost certain, therefore, that not only would Christ have grown up amongst this group, but that St. Paul was probably mistaken for one of these Jews also (on account of his use of Greek, I imagine).

It should be fairly obvious, then, that Christ's connection to Egypt argues nothing for Christ being black and I'd argue that the wish to portray Him so is nothing more than misplaced racial pride at best and racism at worst (depending on the group involved - not trying to say anything about you Matthew). I'm not afraid of your black Christ picture, I just find it rather distastefully painted (and I'd say the same if He looked Germanic) and would rather see an icon. Feel free to disagree, though.
James
I fully agree
Logged

Argus
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1


« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2005, 06:34:02 AM »

Americans have a history of mis-representing people from the levant, Jesus now is an African-American,(maybe played by Will Smith?) and for years Hollywood portrayed Jesus as a Norwegian-American. The issue is that Americans still have difficulty in thinking outside their primitive black and white color prisim.

This email , reproduced in this Greek blog, brings up the issue of Nordicism and Africanism that permeates America's isolated and warped view of all humanity.

Scroll down to the visual re-creation of what Jesus probably looked like:

http://hellenicnationalist.blogspot.com/2004/12/iranian-perspective-on-alexander-movie.html
Jesus Christ, is frequently portrayed as a slightly built, tall blonde Nordic man. Jesus or Jeshua, was a Jew from West Asia who spoke Aramaic. It is now acknowledged by a number of researchers that much of what we accept as the "appearance" of Jesus is not altogether accurate. Jesus would most likely have resembled a modern Fertile Crescent Arab or Jew from places such as Jerusalem, Amman, Hebron, Damascus or Basra. Scientists have recently reconstructed the image of Christ as he would have most likely appeared in his lifetime in ancient Palestine and Judea (see photo below):
http://hellenicnationalist.blogspot.com/2004/12/iranian-perspective-on-alexander-movie.html



http://hellenicnationalist.blogspot.com/2004/12/iranian-perspective-on-alexander-movie.html
Logged
aurelia
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 588


« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2005, 08:36:31 AM »

I am thinking Jesus looked like any other slender (think Ghandi, he fasted alot too) Middle Eastern male...like the nice men at the barber shop we take the boys to.   But does it freaking matter?

and Bagpiper: if it's not scottish...*fill in the rest*   Wink

and on the African american label...I have yet to know anyone to describe themselves as anything but Black.  Or something more rude that if my kids said it we would get accused of being racist.  *We used to live in the 'hood*  I have a big problem using African American if i dont know if they are from Nigeria or Jamaca or Idaho.  Or a Jamacan living in Idaho. Or Nigerian/Jamacan/Norwegian...did ya think to ask what thye refer to themselves as?   Lets see...call me a European-Native-Caucasian-American??? We're all just people.  And I'm not white, I'm sort of a nice pale beige color.  My daughter is glow in the dark, one of the others is nut brown (in the summer) and my husband is red AND glow in the dark (think Hank Hill).  What can I say? (trying to make a point on how stupid the whole thing is)

Logged
Serbian Patriot
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 200


« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2005, 11:04:25 AM »

I am thinking Jesus looked like any other slender (think Ghandi, he fasted alot too) Middle Eastern male...like the nice men at the barber shop we take the boys to.  ÃƒÆ’‚ But does it freaking matter?
Next you'll be saying does theology really matter as long as we all love each other.   If you don't have boundaries and principles, and you don't stick to them, then what do you have? 




Logged

cizinec
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 941


There ain't no way but the hard way.


« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2005, 11:08:22 AM »

Quote
My wife is a Slovak-American because she was born there. Her brother is not a Slovak-American because he was born here. He is an American of Slovak descent.

That's kind of funny.  The American citizens from Serbia call themselves "Serbs."  The kids of the immigrants call themselves "Serbs."  The ones whose great great great grandparents came from the Balkans and who don't know how to say hello in Serbian call themselves "Serbs." ÂÂ

My father-in-law was born in a Polish part of a town in PA.  His father was half Polish and half Slovak.  His mother was Slovak.  Ask him what his ethnic group is:  Polish.  Ask him WHAT he is and he'll say "American".  There's a difference between genetic background, ethnic identity, cultural identity, and national identity.

We went to Oklahoma over Memorial Day weekend with my folks.  My mother wanted to visit her cousins.  My kids were then exposed to the cousins I grew up with, who look very different from us.  They have dark skin and black hair, but we are close.  My mother's half-sister was there.  Her kids, my half-first cousins, play stick ball and say "O-si-yo" for a greeting and ask "do-hi-tsu?"  Last night my light-haired four-year-old pointed at a picture of a native american kid and said, "He's like me."  Well, he was and he wasn't.  My cousins and my mom make dang sure I get the tribal paper, which I read.  I read my son the really great kid's stories.  He is a citizen of the tribal government.  But he's not Native American and neither am I.  (The BIA says we are since we all have to have registered numbers like cattle).

Then I had to re-explain to him his mother's family.  How they came from Slovakia and, for some of them, from a place in Poland about two miles from the border with Slovakia, and tell him what that means for him and why he's different from his cousins in Oklahoma.  We eat primarily Slovak food in our home.  At Christmas we celebrate the way the Slovaks do.  Then we have a Slava like Serbs. ÂÂ

Some here, I'm sure, will say that my son has no right to call himself anything.  I've heard that argument before.  Leave people in some sort of cultural wasteland where they aren't anything.  I usually get this talk from people who grew up in America and wear t-shirts that say "FBI-Full Blooded Italian".  They usually don't speak Italian, eat and Burger King, drink Budweiser "beer" and don't go to mass.

As I have explained in another thread, ethnicity is defined as "groups of people classed according to common racial, national, tribal, religious, linguistic, or cultural origin or background." ÂÂ

The "or cultural origin or background" is very important.  The Serbs who go to my church who are Americans through and through, could very well still be ethnic Serbs.  They don't need anyone's permission to recognize that fact.  The semantics of who is Serbian-American, of Serbian decent, etc. is generally an issue when one group is trying to exclude another group for political reasons.

It is unhelpful to say that someone is Slovak-American because they were born there (and, possibly, don't even remember being there) and then calling a sibbling something else because they were born here, while they both grew up in the exact same culture and the exact same environment.  It has no purpose as it doesn't mean anything about WHO the individual is.  If my wife and I went to China and had a kid there and then came back, would the kid be "Chinese-American" since he/she was born there?  Of course not!

In our complicated, multi-ethnic society every houshold is different. ÂÂ Sometimes our individuals homes become a single ethnic group. ÂÂ For "clubs" and other "organizations," defining who is a member of that organization is important. ÂÂ It serves to narrow membership and focus. ÂÂ That's great. ÂÂ But it doesn't give these clubs and organizations the right to dictate what a person is ethnically or culturally and how that person defines himself.  That is, unless you're Native American and then you are defined by your "degree of blood" by universities, states, the BIA, and the tribe itself.

If that's the model some of you ethnic "purists" want to go to, I suggest you live in it for a while.  It's a lot of fun.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2005, 11:20:37 AM by cizinec » Logged

"Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery."
cizinec
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 941


There ain't no way but the hard way.


« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2005, 11:24:46 AM »

BTW, I have a different "degree of blood" from the BIA to the tribe.  They use different standards on whether or not a person counts.  Right now our tribal courts are hearing a case on whether or not the descendants of freed slaves of tribal citizens are allowed to be tribal citizens. 

Like I said, deciding to define who gets to use what "ethnic" labels is a lot of fun.
Logged

"Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery."
Serbian Patriot
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 200


« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2005, 11:34:40 AM »

That's kind of funny.  The American citizens from Serbia call themselves "Serbs."  The kids of the immigrants call themselves "Serbs."  The ones whose great great great grandparents came from the Balkans and who don't know how to say hello in Serbian call themselves "Serbs." ÂÂ
Your nationality doesn't change based on geographical location.  Its sad they don't know their heritage of language, or indeed their religion, but they are still Serbs.

My father-in-law was born in a Polish part of a town in PA.  His father was half Polish and half Slovak.  His mother was Slovak.  Ask him what his ethnic group is:  Polish.  Ask him WHAT he is and he'll say "American".  There's a difference between genetic background, ethnic identity, cultural identity, and national identity.
For me there is no difference, I am Serbian genetically, ethnically, culturally, linguistically, spiritually or in any other category.  My passport is a usefull piece of plastic that has no relation to my nationality.  Although born and bred in England, I am not English or any other fancy combination of Serbian and English, i am Serbian pure and simple.  I feel no loyalty or belonging to England. 
Logged

Augustine
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 565

pray for me, please


WWW
« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2005, 11:38:39 AM »

Quote
In the New Testament, the only description of Jesus' skin color is given in Revelation 1:15 -
"His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters…"

Context and the etymology of the original Greek clear all of this up.

Full passage, first...

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; ÂÂ
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. (Apocalypse of St.John 1:14-15)

Context - Not intended to be taken as a "racial" description, as Christ is also said here to have eyes as "a flame of fire" and "white hair" (white as wool or snow).  His voice is also said to sound as "many waters" (reverberating, loud, booming).  This is refering to a glorified condition of His humanity, not creaturely "racial" qualities.

Etymology - the word often translated as "brass" or "bronze" in this passage (in English Bibles) in Greek is calkolivbanon.  The word is a compound of chalkos (brass, or things made of brass) and libanos (frankincence, frankincence tree).  Why the reference to frankincence?  Because the resin of this tree, is a very light white, and/or slightly golden colour.  Thus, the translation of the term calkolivbanon as "fine brass" is good - a very light, metallic, highly reflective, golden colour.  That doesn't exactly sound "black to me.

[img=http://www.scent-by-nature.co.uk/acatalog/frnkrscbm2.jpg]
Frankincence

« Last Edit: June 17, 2005, 12:08:20 PM by Augustine » Logged
Augustine
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 565

pray for me, please


WWW
« Reply #38 on: June 17, 2005, 11:46:07 AM »

Serbian Patriot,

Quote
For me there is no difference, I am Serbian genetically, ethnically, culturally, linguistically, spiritually or in any other category.  My passport is a usefull piece of plastic that has no relation to my nationality.  Although born and bred in England, I am not English or any other fancy combination of Serbian and English, i am Serbian pure and simple.  I feel no loyalty or belonging to England.

This is illogical.  You're also going into dangerous grounds mixing "genetics" with national and cultural identity; the three are very distinct, and no shortage of misery have been caused in the last century by the confusion of the three.

As for your passport being meaningless, shame on you.  People like you are precisely what makes the natives of a given land feel angry and betrayed.  It's the height of ingratitude and snobbery.  Unlike you, I was not even born in my country of citizenship - but I was raised here, and for better and for worse, I've lived with these people (Canadians) most of my life, and their fate is mine.

Quote
i am Serbian pure and simple

No you're not.  You have Serbian ancestors, and are part of a diaspora Serbian ethnic community, a subset of your local nation (precisely because it kindly tolerates and even ecourages people to bring their "old ways" with them.)

Quote
I feel no loyalty or belonging to England.

Absolutely disgusting.

Logged
cizinec
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 941


There ain't no way but the hard way.


« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2005, 12:16:59 PM »

Augustine,

I will take issue with you for saying he is not a Serb.  That's ridiculous.  Who gave you the ethnic picker stick?

Did you bother to ask WHY he was in England?  It could very well be that he was taken there as a temporary refugee.  We have those at our church.  They didn't want to come here but the U.S. agreed to take some since they were bombing Serbian homes.  I need to point out that I don't recognize the difference between a U.S. soldier blowing up a house or an MPRI employee hired by the White House blowing up a house.  Either way, the U.S. government is responsible.

I don't know his history, so I'm not passing judgment.

Serbian Patriot,

I hope you've got a good story to cover the claim that you should have no loyalties to Britain.  Well, other than the fact that they are pompous imperalists bent on the oppression of certain peoples. Grin

Tongue in cheek, ladies, tongue in cheek.
Logged

"Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery."
Cephas
There is no spoon.
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic Orthodox
Jurisdiction: See of St. Mark
Posts: 288

γνῶθισε αυτόν


« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2005, 12:33:28 PM »

â€Â  Irini nem ehmot â€Â

perhaps i may be strange, but i don't see the big deal in Serbian Pilot not having loyalties to England.  it's good that he takes pride in his serbian heritage.  i am presently living in canada, but i don't feel like i should hold any loyalties to it (even though i was born here).  i am egyptian by blood and proud to be egyptian.  and in the (highly unlikely) event of a war breaking out between canada and egypt (amusing thought to say the least), i would certainly side with egypt, it's my homeland.  it's all about pride in one's heritage, not pride in one's adopted country.  just my thoughts.

Prayers please.
Logged

Cephas 

"But he was wounded for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the punishment that made us whole, and by his bruises we are healed."
-- Isaiah 53:5

"He who knows himself knows God"
-- Pi Nishti Abba Antony
Augustine
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 565

pray for me, please


WWW
« Reply #41 on: June 17, 2005, 02:45:32 PM »

Cephas,

Quote
i am presently living in canada, but i don't feel like i should hold any loyalties to it (even though i was born here).  i am egyptian by blood and proud to be egyptian.  and in the (highly unlikely) event of a war breaking out between canada and egypt (amusing thought to say the least), i would certainly side with egypt, it's my homeland.

Yes, but it's a good enough country to spounge off all of it's benefits, it's relatively peaceful climate, etc. etc.  Yup, sickening as well.

Frankly, you should book a flight on the next plain and leave.  I have no sympathy for this mentality, as it rightfully gives fodder to those who are already suspicious of immigration.

Logged
cizinec
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 941


There ain't no way but the hard way.


« Reply #42 on: June 17, 2005, 05:02:54 PM »

Quote
Yes, but it's a good enough country to spounge off all of it's benefits, it's relatively peaceful climate, etc. etc.  Yup, sickening as well.

That still seems a bit too all or nothing to me.  Loyalty to a government takes time.  I just don't get the demand.

Cephas, do you pay Canadian taxes?  Are you eligible for the draft?  Did you serve in the military?  Are you able to serve in the military?  Are you an immigrant?  What were the circumstances that caused you to be in Canada?

If you financially support a government through taxes, btw, that's about the most many government requires anyway. 

I like Canada, except they were a bunch of sniveling loyalist tories or Frenchy types.
Logged

"Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery."
aurelia
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 588


« Reply #43 on: June 17, 2005, 05:29:29 PM »

Next you'll be saying does theology really matter as long as we all love each other.  ÃƒÆ’‚ If you don't have boundaries and principles, and you don't stick to them, then what do you have?  





Do you honestly think someone born in that area at that time looked like a Norwegian? I highly doubt it.
Logged
cizinec
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 941


There ain't no way but the hard way.


« Reply #44 on: June 17, 2005, 05:58:24 PM »

Quote
Do you honestly think someone born in that area at that time looked like a Norwegian?

Ja, sir.  You betcha!
Logged

"Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery."
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 3 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.153 seconds with 72 queries.