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Author Topic: "Catholicos of the Ancient See of St. Thomas since it's restoration in 1912."  (Read 2204 times) Average Rating: 0
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Kefa
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KEFA


« on: June 15, 2005, 09:36:40 PM »

Hello Beloved Friends from Indian Orthodox Chruch

I hope you could shed some more light on this subject.  I would really like to learn some more on this.  You see writings saluting the Indian Orthodox church catholicose as "Catholicos of the Ancient See of St. Thomas since it's restoration in 1912."  I do not under the "restoration" part of it.  Why did it have to be restored if the See of St. Thomas belonged to India?  Where was it restored from?   Why only the fourth catholicose in 1965 was there a discontinuation?  Which Church restored it?  Was this something that was discussed with all the oriental churches?  Was it approved by the oriental churches?  Was any of the Oriental Churches present on this great occasion? Which Synod approved of this restoration?  Being one of the greatest occasion of the Indian Orthodox Church I am pretty sure it was well documented. Can you guide me to some books where I could read more about it in very detail.  Sorry for throwing so many question But please I am only interested in answers for these question and want to leave the church politics out of it.  Answers from any one from this Indian Orthodox church will be greatly appreciated.

Is this restoration of Thrones of disciples and See's a common practice among the orthodox churches churches?  Has any of the other Orthodox Churches done it?  I am also really interested about the oriental church involvement in this occation and approval of this occation and which church restored it.  Did all the oriental heads aprove of this "restoration".  If so which synod or meeting did they approve this?  Then i hear it was re-restored?Huh Why? was the fiirt restorationg good enough?

Please share your thoughts.

Thanks in advance for your time.
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joe77
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« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2005, 06:49:15 PM »

Dear friend i asked the same question to a friend called Paul here in another tread about malankara episcopal synod but unfortunatly i am still waiting for replay hope u get replay soon?
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paul2004
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« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2005, 12:07:21 PM »

Hello Beloved Friends from Indian Orthodox Chruch

I hope you could shed some more light on this subject.  I would really like to learn some more on this.  You see writings saluting the Indian Orthodox church catholicose as "Catholicos of the Ancient See of St. Thomas since it's restoration in 1912."  I do not under the "restoration" part of it.  Why did it have to be restored if the See of St. Thomas belonged to India?  Where was it restored from?   Why only the fourth catholicose in 1965 was there a discontinuation?  Which Church restored it?  Was this something that was discussed with all the oriental churches?  Was it approved by the oriental churches?  Was any of the Oriental Churches present on this great occasion? Which Synod approved of this restoration?  Being one of the greatest occasion of the Indian Orthodox Church I am pretty sure it was well documented. Can you guide me to some books where I could read more about it in very detail.  Sorry for throwing so many question But please I am only interested in answers for these question and want to leave the church politics out of it.  Answers from any one from this Indian Orthodox church will be greatly appreciated.

Is this restoration of Thrones of disciples and See's a common practice among the orthodox churches churches?  Has any of the other Orthodox Churches done it?  I am also really interested about the oriental church involvement in this occation and approval of this occation and which church restored it.  Did all the oriental heads aprove of this "restoration".  If so which synod or meeting did they approve this?  Then i hear it was re-restored?Huh Why? was the fiirt restorationg good enough?

Please share your thoughts.

Thanks in advance for your time.



Dear Kefa,  Have you resigned from freemasonry organization of commanders of Antioch?

I think the answer to your questions can be easily found when you read about how a non-Chalcedonian succession was established for the Western (Antiochian) Church after the council of Chalcedon and when a non-Chalcedonian succession was restored for the Church of the East.

Peace

Paul






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Kefa
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KEFA


« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2005, 02:22:35 PM »

Hey Paul,
Since indian orthodox church is a part of Oriental orthodox churches, I was just wondering what the involvement of oritental orthodox churches in this "restoration" process.  I asume that you are from an Indian Orthodox Church, if so could you please fwd the questions i raised to the the learned members of you church and get me some answeres. Thank you very much for your time.  Are there any documentations on what went on during the day of the "restoration"?  Please see if you could provide me more details.

Thank you.
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paul2004
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« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2005, 11:45:33 AM »

Hey Paul,
Since indian orthodox church is a part of Oriental orthodox churches, I was just wondering what the involvement of oritental orthodox churches in this "restoration" process.  I asume that you are from an Indian Orthodox Church, if so could you please fwd the questions i raised to the the learned members of you church and get me some answeres. Thank you very much for your time.  Are there any documentations on what went on during the day of the "restoration"?  Please see if you could provide me more details.

Thank you.


>>I asume that you are from an Indian Orthodox Church.

What do you mean by this? 'an Indian Orthodox'?  There is only one Church formally known as Orthodox Church in India. The other one is formally known as 'Jacobite' Church. So there is no need for any confusion here.

Involvement of other churches is needed when a church is established new. In the case of Indian Church, the church existed from first century and it was linked to the Church of the East, both founded by Apostles.  It was Apostle Thomas who ordained bishops in the East.  Evidence is in Coptic Synaxarium (if you agree that Coptic Synaxarium is canonical. I hope you have no problem in accepting).  You will find evidence also in out local tradition.

When Catholicate of the East was restored in 6th century, it was an independent act. Also, the Armenian Church is founded by Apostles. So, they also restored the lineage and enjoy freedom.

The struggle of Indian Church is very legitimate.  A lot of our problems can be solved if we remove RC terms like universal supremacy, petrine primacy etc. from the equation. Hope Kefa and other organizations work for the same faith of all OO churches with out mixing RC teachings.

Paul

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Kefa
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KEFA


« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2005, 01:30:49 PM »

So as per what you are saying.  If the Patriarch of Syrian Orthodox Church goes to edesa today and "restores" the Ancient see of St. Thomas again and ordain a Catholicose there will it be valid?Huh If not Why not???
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paul2004
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« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2005, 01:50:29 PM »

The Edessan Church is no more.  So, this is not a realistic example. Also there is no Church in Antioch, so the usage of title 'Patriarch of Anthioc'. Today it is just a  'titular' See, not a realistic one.   

The Orthodox in the East are mostly confined to India, so there is Christian meaning in resotirng the Catholicate of the East, which is in the succession of Apostle Thomas. Give it to them, since it is their right and moreover their faith and honor each other in good faith.

-Paul
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Kefa
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KEFA


« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2005, 02:53:31 PM »

Every church in India has the right to claim this then, Why just Independent Indian Church?  And where was this throne of St. Thomas hiding up untill 1932.  Even the Supreme court of India officially declared that the Throne of St. Thomas is INVALID
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paul2004
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« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2005, 05:08:15 PM »

Every church in India has the right to claim this then, Why just Independent Indian Church?  And where was this throne of St. Thomas hiding up untill 1932.  Even the Supreme court of India officially declared that the Throne of St. Thomas is INVALID

You are right. Indian consitution allows the freedom and that is why the church owing allegiance to the hierarchy currently occupying Damascus seprated from the mother Church and registered itself as a new Church with the official title "Malankara Jacobite Syrian Church". - using a title 'Jacobite' which was rejected by Orthodox fathers. Suppose say, the Jacobites existed in another nation, where freedom of religion is not there, I don't think you can easily seperate and register a new Church as it happened in 2002.

As for Apostle Thomas, we breath this faith. All our families trace their origin to an ancestor baptised by Apostle Thomas. We have 2000+  years old faith in Apostle Thomas.

Indian Church existed with out any foreign intrusion until 17th century. It was only in the 17th century our fathers requested help against persecution by other foreign churches.  Those who blindly believed any falsehood promoted by foreign churches seperated from the mother Church. But those who enquired the truth and accepted only true fathers remained united. Our Church is grateful to all Orthodox fathers who helped the Church with true teaching and include their names  in the calendar of saints.   

Indian Supreme Court can decide the legitimate Malankara Metropolitan (due to the administrative aspect of this position) based on majority voting by representatives from each parish in the Malankara Association.  But the Apostolic throne of St. Thomas is a spiritual belief and it is not the court deciding matters of faith. "Apostolic Throne of St. Thomas' is inscribed in an ancient church.
It is also the canonical succession in the East according to Hudaya canon, the succession which begins with Apostle Thomas.  So, the throne of St. Thomas is canonical.  Only the Holy Synod has the authority to interpret faith (according to the consitution of 1934).


-Paul






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Kefa
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« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2005, 06:22:00 PM »

"using a title 'Jacobite' which was rejected by Orthodox fathers"

Please let your Catholicose know about this because he is still paying taxes for pazhaya seminari (stolen from the jacobites) as a Jacobite.
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paul2004
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« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2005, 12:12:54 PM »

"using a title 'Jacobite' which was rejected by Orthodox fathers"

Please let your Catholicose know about this because he is still paying taxes for pazhaya seminari (stolen from the jacobites) as a Jacobite.



Tax system was intitated by British. even in schools run by RC, they will only write our religion as 'Jacobite' in school records. This they do to ridicule us as monophysite heretics.

The truth is that whenever we have the freedom, we ought to reject that title and stick to the true understanding.  This is why I said earlier that after we learn the truth, we stick to the truth.


Peace
Paul


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