Author Topic: Faith and works  (Read 1132 times)

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Offline Eruvande

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Faith and works
« on: March 23, 2015, 12:43:36 PM »
It occurred to me on Sunday, listening to the vicar talking about faith and works, that it's rather important to define 'works'. In every example he used, 'works' seemed to mean 'the mosaic law'. So when there are admonitions in scripture to not rely on works for salvation, it means not relying on following the law of Moses. But there are clear scriptures that say that works are important - the sheep and the goats, or the passage in Ephesians (I think) that talks about having works prepared for us to do.

So we are saved by faith and works - the simple 'doing good' that comes from a faithful disciple. This is not what my church teaches, being very much a faith alone kind of church - sometimes very strangely insisting that all the good social action the church engages in, like a foodbank and other things, is completely irrelevant to our walk with Christ.

So faith and works are perfectly complementary, when understood rightly?
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Re: Faith and works
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2015, 12:45:58 PM »
You are not far from the Kingdom of God. 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

Offline Eruvande

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Re: Faith and works
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2015, 05:14:38 PM »
Thank you, that's encouraging.
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Offline Luke

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Re: Faith and works
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2015, 06:19:05 PM »
Works are a sign that we have faith.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Faith and works
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2015, 08:57:30 PM »
Trusting (faith) to God's favor (grace) is the way we find the ability to work with him. We are ordained (mankind was pre-ordained) to work with him, is a way it's put by St. Paul. As for a pithy relationship between "faith" and "works" we couldn't do better than St. James: "I will show you my faith by my works."
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Faith and works
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2015, 09:18:12 PM »
It occurred to me on Sunday, listening to the vicar talking about faith and works, that it's rather important to define 'works'. In every example he used, 'works' seemed to mean 'the mosaic law'. So when there are admonitions in scripture to not rely on works for salvation, it means not relying on following the law of Moses. But there are clear scriptures that say that works are important - the sheep and the goats, or the passage in Ephesians (I think) that talks about having works prepared for us to do.

So we are saved by faith and works - the simple 'doing good' that comes from a faithful disciple. This is not what my church teaches, being very much a faith alone kind of church - sometimes very strangely insisting that all the good social action the church engages in, like a foodbank and other things, is completely irrelevant to our walk with Christ.

So faith and works are perfectly complementary, when understood rightly?

The Greek word for "work" is εργον it's mentioned in the NT 174 times in different contexts. Works are not defined so narrowly in the way Protestants generally like to define them, and the term itself is scattered throughout the New Testament. So, "works based salvation" is in the Bible. Like it or not.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Faith and works
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2015, 09:28:48 PM »
Nor is that the only word translated "works," so if you'd add up all instances as we English-speakers see them, you'd get numbers even higher.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Faith and works
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2015, 03:28:51 PM »
Not that you may need it, but I found a book written by a Baptist minister/theologian who was bothered by the Baptist "once saved, always saved" doctrine. So, he looked into it and wrote a book that conclusively refutes the Baptist doctrine. You may want to check it out. So far it is only available as a Kindle ebook, but can buy it and still read it from your computer with a free Kindle Reading App.

"Returning to First Century Theology" [Kindle Edition] by L. Hudson Turner.

Publisher's description:

The question of the conditional (loss of salvation) or unconditional security of the believer has existed in the church since the first century. The Apostolic Fathers, writings dating from before A.D. 150, demonstrate a strong belief in the conditional security of the believer. Some of these writings came by the hand of men who had been taught by the apostles. Clement, Ignatius, and Polycarp were disciples of John according to historical data. It is very likely that these men were passing on the doctrine of conditional security of the believer that they had received from the apostles themselves. The thesis of this book is that the New Testament does teach that true believers can fall, and fail to enter the coming kingdom of God if they do not repent. Most of the book is an examination of the passages that do teach what we call today “loss of salvation.” The verses and reasons that seem to support the opposite view will also be addressed. The main contribution of the book is the section that attempts to correlate salvation by grace and judgment of works. It claims to solve some of the major paradoxes found in the New Testament.

http://www.amazon.com/Returning-Century-Theology-Hudson-Turner-ebook/dp/B00D93HE0E

Offline recent convert

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Re: Faith and works
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2015, 02:02:37 AM »
Romans 11:22New King James Version (NKJV)

22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness,[a] if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.


Galatians 6:1-15New King James Version (NKJV)

Bear and Share the Burdens

6 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.  2 Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.  3 For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself.  4 But let each one examine his own work, and then he will have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.  5 For each one shall bear his own load.

Be Generous and Do Good

6 Let him who is taught the word share in all good things with him who teaches.

7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.  8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.  9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart.  10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.

Glory Only in the Cross

11 See with what large letters I have written to you with my own hand!  12 As many as desire to make a good showing in the flesh, these would compel you to be circumcised, only that they may not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.  13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.  14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom[a] the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.  15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.
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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Faith and works
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2015, 10:53:07 AM »
The thing is, we don't understand "salvation" as only one's eventual eternal destination. Salvation is healing, becoming the people God want us to be, has planned for us to be. That person will be patient, kind, longsuffering etc. exhibiting all the fruits of the Spirit and caring for others as if they were himself. It's kind of hard to care for others without doing for them as well.
"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

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