Author Topic: Do you think God wants less for his children than what you want for yours?  (Read 4364 times)

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Offline Greatest I am

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Do you think God wants less for his children than what you want for yours?

Most Christians think that God created man to be subservient to him. We are to love honor and most of all obey and serve his wants and needs forever as his heavenly children.

As a son, I strained to do better than my father. This came naturally and thus I think most people do the same. We all want our parents to be proud of us.
 
As a father myself, I want my children to do as well as I have and then do better than what I have done. That to me would be the ideal. That eventually places my children above me, --- where they belong. This is natural and desirable.

I would not force my children beneath me and would reject any God who would not have his children exceed whatever he is.

Do you want your children to exceed your achievements?

Let me assume that you would not hold your children back and do want then to exceed whatever you are.

Do you think God wants less for his children than what you want for yours?

Regards
DL

Offline Theophania

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I don't have children.
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Quote from: Christ the Teacher
And I say unto you: Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth, and he that seeketh findeth, and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he, for a fish, give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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I don't have children.

Neither does our snakey friend, and, if his hobby here is any indication, that's unlikely to change.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Asteriktos

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Are you asking, in a roundabout way, whether we want our children to be greater/better than God? superior or upgraded gods, so to speak?

Regarding the question generally, I do not think God wants less for his children than what I--or other people--want for their children. Having said that, I also try to not assume that my ideas and standards are the criteria by which God should be judged. Evaluated: partly yes; judged, condemned, or dismissed: no.

Offline minasoliman

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The Father wants us to inherit His throne and to become as perfect as He is, which goes against your caricature of what Christians believe.  While our own earthly fathers desire for us to become greater, we also grow up not deluding ourselves that we are greater than them even if that's what our fathers aspired for us, but that they humbled themselves to bring us to such success.  Therefore, God does not want subservient people, but we need to know our place even when our Father in heaven is humble enough to accept blasphemies against Him.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Greatest I am

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I don't have children.

But you were/are a son.

What do you think your father wanted from you?

Is it the same as God wants from you?

Answer or continue to hide from a truth.

Regards
DL

Offline Greatest I am

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Quote from: Christ the Teacher
And I say unto you: Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth, and he that seeketh findeth, and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he, for a fish, give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

So your God always wants you below him and recipient of his generosity.

Is that where you will keep your children. Always beholding to you and always below what you are?

Regards
DL


Offline Greatest I am

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I don't have children.

Neither does our snakey friend, and, if his hobby here is any indication, that's unlikely to change.

I have 4 male children and they are all brighter and more responsible than what I see in you.

Regards
DL

Offline Porter ODoran

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Even you should know that some dogs don't hunt. Saying if I ask for something I'm filling a degrading role makes no sense in terms human or divine.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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I don't have children.

Neither does our snakey friend, and, if his hobby here is any indication, that's unlikely to change.

I have 4 male children and they are all brighter and more responsible than what I see in you.

Regards
DL

I meant in the real world.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Greatest I am

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Are you asking, in a roundabout way, whether we want our children to be greater/better than God? superior or upgraded gods, so to speak?

Regarding the question generally, I do not think God wants less for his children than what I--or other people--want for their children. Having said that, I also try to not assume that my ideas and standards are the criteria by which God should be judged. Evaluated: partly yes; judged, condemned, or dismissed: no.

My question is quite clear but you do not seem to want to answer it truthfully.

As to your not judging God and his actions and ways, then you do not follow your bible and God's own instructions to you.

1 Thesalonian 5;21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

You are hanging on to what is not good. 

Regards
DL


Offline Volnutt

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Yeah, this guy is from another forum I post on where he goes by the name Gnostic Bishop, I can tell from the avatar and posting style.

He's pretty much an attention whore troll there, too.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Theophania

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I don't have children.

But you were/are a son.

What do you think your father wanted from you?

Is it the same as God wants from you?

Answer or continue to hide from a truth.

Regards
DL

Who is your daddy and what does he do?
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline Papist

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<sigh>
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Greatest I am

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The Father wants us to inherit His throne and to become as perfect as He is, which goes against your caricature of what Christians believe. 

You have confused me with your answer. Perhaps if we break it down I can see what you are saying.

There are many types of Christians with many beliefs. Some are liberal and some fundament. Some on the right and some on the left. The only thing in common is that you are all idol worshipers and have accepted immoral penal substitution and a God who thinks punishing the innocent instead of the guilty is somehow moral and just. A corrupt theology to moral men.

You say that God is perfect. Your scriptures show God torturing King David's baby for 6 days before finally killing it. Murder to me.

Do you think God was justified and perfect in torturing that baby because of his anger with the king?

I just need to know what your view of perfect is before we continue.

Regards
DL

Offline Papist

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you are all idol worshipers and have accepted immoral penal substitution and a God who thinks punishing the innocent instead of the guilty is somehow moral and just. A corrupt theology to moral men.


Nope
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline J Michael

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Offline Porter ODoran

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There are many types of Christians with many beliefs. Some are liberal and some fundament. Some on the right and some on the left.

And some are Orthodox. Try to keep track of the names of the forums you're spamming.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Greatest I am

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Even you should know that some dogs don't hunt. Saying if I ask for something I'm filling a degrading role makes no sense in terms human or divine.

I am French and my English is usually good enough to understand most but I have no idea what you are saying.

Who is hunting and what are you asking of whom?

I don't really know if my question speaks to what you wrote so you might want to just start over with English and speak to the issue of the O.P.

Stop asking in the hunting bush and come out to chat like an intelligent person.

Regards
DL

Offline Greatest I am

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I don't have children.

Neither does our snakey friend, and, if his hobby here is any indication, that's unlikely to change.

I have 4 male children and they are all brighter and more responsible than what I see in you.

Regards
DL

I meant in the real world.

So did I.

Regards
DL

Offline Greatest I am

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I don't have children.

But you were/are a son.

What do you think your father wanted from you?

Is it the same as God wants from you?

Answer or continue to hide from a truth.

Regards
DL

Who is your daddy and what does he do?

Reciprocity is fair play. Answer my question and I will reciprocate.

Regards
DL

Offline Greatest I am

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you are all idol worshipers and have accepted immoral penal substitution and a God who thinks punishing the innocent instead of the guilty is somehow moral and just. A corrupt theology to moral men.


Nope

Good. Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. That immorality does not change even if Jesus would have volunteered, which he did not do.

I am pleased that you have rejected your immoral creed and the idea of Jesus being your savior.

Regards
DL

Offline Papist

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What God desires for us is far beyond anything that our earthly fathers could ever wish for us.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Papist

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you are all idol worshipers and have accepted immoral penal substitution and a God who thinks punishing the innocent instead of the guilty is somehow moral and just. A corrupt theology to moral men.


Nope

Good. Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. That immorality does not change even if Jesus would have volunteered, which he did not do.

I am pleased that you have rejected your immoral creed and the idea of Jesus being your savior.

Regards
DL
Do you think that Eastern Christians believe in Penal Substitution?
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Porter ODoran

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"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Volnutt

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Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Greatest I am

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What God desires for us is far beyond anything that our earthly fathers could ever wish for us.

I do not agree. As a father, I want more for my children than God does.

If you do not for yours then you are not much of a father.

Regards
DL

Offline Porter ODoran

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It is impossible to want more than God.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Papist

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What God desires for us is far beyond anything that our earthly fathers could ever wish for us.

I do not agree. As a father, I want more for my children than God does.

If you do not for yours then you are not much of a father.

Regards
DL
You can't possibly, with your limited and finite will, want as much as God wants for us. Look who is building idols now.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2015, 02:35:08 PM by Papist »
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Greatest I am

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you are all idol worshipers and have accepted immoral penal substitution and a God who thinks punishing the innocent instead of the guilty is somehow moral and just. A corrupt theology to moral men.


Nope

Good. Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. That immorality does not change even if Jesus would have volunteered, which he did not do.

I am pleased that you have rejected your immoral creed and the idea of Jesus being your savior.

Regards
DL
Do you think that Eastern Christians believe in Penal Substitution?

I don't know if all of you believe your own creeds. It would be quite strange if there was no one who did not reject some parts of it.

Do you believe that Jesus is your savior?

If so then you believe in Penal Substitution.

It is a term synonymous with the Christian notion of Jesus' sacrifice.

Regards
DL



Offline Papist

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Do you believe that Jesus is your savior?

If so then you believe in Penal Substitution.


non sequitur.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Greatest I am

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What God desires for us is far beyond anything that our earthly fathers could ever wish for us.

I do not agree. As a father, I want more for my children than God does.

If you do not for yours then you are not much of a father.

Regards
DL
You can't possibly, with your limited and finite will, want as much as God wants for us. Look who is building idols now.

Your bible says that you have two choices. Be a slave to sin or a slave to God.

If you cannot want or will more than those two options for your children then you are not a responsible parent.

Regards
DL


Offline Papist

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What God desires for us is far beyond anything that our earthly fathers could ever wish for us.

I do not agree. As a father, I want more for my children than God does.

If you do not for yours then you are not much of a father.

Regards
DL
You can't possibly, with your limited and finite will, want as much as God wants for us. Look who is building idols now.

Your bible says that you have two choices. Be a slave to sin or a slave to God.

If you cannot want or will more than those two options for your children then you are not a responsible parent.

Regards
DL

"Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you."
- John 15:15
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline homedad76

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What God desires for us is far beyond anything that our earthly fathers could ever wish for us.

I do not agree. As a father, I want more for my children than God does.

If you do not for yours then you are not much of a father.

Regards
DL
You can't possibly, with your limited and finite will, want as much as God wants for us. Look who is building idols now.

Your bible says that you have two choices. Be a slave to sin or a slave to God.

If you cannot want or will more than those two options for your children then you are not a responsible parent.

Regards
DL

If that is your argument then I am proud to be an irresponsible parent.  Anybody else with me?
"However hard I try, I find it impossible to construct anything greater than these three words, 'Love one another' —only to the end, and without exceptions: then all is justified and life is illumined, whereas otherwise it is an abomination and a burden."

—Mother Maria of Paris

Offline Porter ODoran

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We are slaves for a time so that we can be children of God forever. However, even this is of limited truth in God's mercy, as we are told that Christ freed us from that slavery (St. Paul) and that we are children of God now (St. John) and will be something even higher than that in future (St. John in the same place, viz.: "Beloved, now are we the sons of God. And it doth not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him" &c.).
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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What God desires for us is far beyond anything that our earthly fathers could ever wish for us.

I do not agree. As a father, I want more for my children than God does.

If you do not for yours then you are not much of a father.

Regards
DL
You can't possibly, with your limited and finite will, want as much as God wants for us. Look who is building idols now.

Your bible says that you have two choices. Be a slave to sin or a slave to God.

If you cannot want or will more than those two options for your children then you are not a responsible parent.

Regards
DL

If that is your argument then I am proud to be an irresponsible parent.  Anybody else with me?

Yes! Being slaves to guilty error is no fit life for our children.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline sakura95

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Oh $@%&!!! Greatest I am is back

Argument: As a father myself, I want my children to do as well as I have and then do better than what I have done. That to me would be the ideal. That eventually places my children above me, --- where they belong. This is natural and desirable.

Rebuttal: Not really. What about in the case of a disabled child? How can he/she exceed you when he/she will not at least given the current state of technology be able to exceed you. To desire this is to place an extremely impossible expectation on him/her. To even expect your  child regardless of ability or disability to be greater than you is to place expectations upon them. This means your children are merely "means to an end" rather than the "end" in itself. According to Kant, this would be immoral.

Argument: I would not force my children beneath me and would reject any God who would not have his children exceed whatever he is.

Rebuttal: This means you want a God who treats his Creation who cannot become Him as by definition, God is the Highest, to see His creation as a mere means to an end.

God at least in Orthodoxy doesn't depict a God who force His children beneath Him. Yes, He calls them but out of serious concern for their wellbeing. That is far from immoral.

Q:Do you want your children to exceed your achievements?
A: No, it is up to them since they are not "means to an end", they are the "end" in itself

Q:Do you think God wants less for his children than what you want for yours?
A:No, He wants the best for them as any parent would want. This is why He want us to accept the cure He made for Sin, otherwise we would be dead, just as any parent wouldn't want their child to die and would try the best in their capability to heal them of any sickness they have.

My Lord, My Lord, give my worthless soul the illumination of Wisdom in your mercy

Offline Greatest I am

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What God desires for us is far beyond anything that our earthly fathers could ever wish for us.

I do not agree. As a father, I want more for my children than God does.

If you do not for yours then you are not much of a father.

Regards
DL
You can't possibly, with your limited and finite will, want as much as God wants for us. Look who is building idols now.

Your bible says that you have two choices. Be a slave to sin or a slave to God.

If you cannot want or will more than those two options for your children then you are not a responsible parent.

Regards
DL

"Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you."
- John 15:15

So your thump negates my thump.

Good cherry picking.

What does Jesus calling someone a friend have to do with God in heaven?

If we were all God's friend then he would not have promised to send the vast majority of us to hell.

I could cherry pick the wide road to hell on narrow path to heaven but your following thump would just negate it. Right?

Regards
DL

Offline Greatest I am

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We are slaves for a time so that we can be children of God forever. However, even this is of limited truth in God's mercy, as we are told that Christ freed us from that slavery (St. Paul) and that we are children of God now (St. John) and will be something even higher than that in future (St. John in the same place, viz.: "Beloved, now are we the sons of God. And it doth not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him" &c.).

So God makes you a slave and then frees you and you think him goo for that. How droll.

Regards
DL

Offline Porter ODoran

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No, I offer to be his servant, which is a freedom from what I naturally am, and he instead makes me his heir.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Papist

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What God desires for us is far beyond anything that our earthly fathers could ever wish for us.

I do not agree. As a father, I want more for my children than God does.

If you do not for yours then you are not much of a father.

Regards
DL
You can't possibly, with your limited and finite will, want as much as God wants for us. Look who is building idols now.

Your bible says that you have two choices. Be a slave to sin or a slave to God.

If you cannot want or will more than those two options for your children then you are not a responsible parent.

Regards
DL

"Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you."
- John 15:15

So your thump negates my thump.

Good cherry picking.

What does Jesus calling someone a friend have to do with God in heaven?

If we were all God's friend then he would not have promised to send the vast majority of us to hell.

I could cherry pick the wide road to hell on narrow path to heaven but your following thump would just negate it. Right?

Regards
DL
What if we choose hell by our own actions? Jesus did call it a path, and a path is something someone chooses to walk.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Papist

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Yes, service to God is freedom, because it exalts us above our lowly state.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Greatest I am

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Oh $@%&!!! Greatest I am is back

Argument: As a father myself, I want my children to do as well as I have and then do better than what I have done. That to me would be the ideal. That eventually places my children above me, --- where they belong. This is natural and desirable.

Rebuttal: Not really. What about in the case of a disabled child? How can he/she exceed you when he/she will not at least given the current state of technology be able to exceed you. To desire this is to place an extremely impossible expectation on him/her. To even expect your  child regardless of ability or disability to be greater than you is to place expectations upon them. This means your children are merely "means to an end" rather than the "end" in itself. According to Kant, this would be immoral.

And I would agree with him. My desires are for my children to have the best possible end. If for any reason, like the ones you state I do not get what I want, then I will settle for the best that my child can give even if that is near nothing. I don't know why you automatically think I would be such a poor parent as to give a guilt trip to my child for not meeting the expectation that he is not capable of giving. Your bias and hate is showing and I hope you can supress it.

Quote
Argument: I would not force my children beneath me and would reject any God who would not have his children exceed whatever he is.

Rebuttal: This means you want a God who treats his Creation who cannot become Him as by definition, God is the Highest, to see His creation as a mere means to an end.


Why can we not become like God? He is omnipotent ands all powerful and can create us to be whatever he wants us to be. Right?

Or are you saying God has limits?

Quote
God at least in Orthodoxy doesn't depict a God who force His children beneath Him. Yes, He calls them but out of serious concern for their wellbeing. That is far from immoral.

If God was concerned for the wellbeing of humans he would not have created a hell for those he rejects.

Quote
Q:Do you want your children to exceed your achievements?
A: No, it is up to them since they are not "means to an end", they are the "end" in itself

The question was to your desires and has nothing to do with theirs.
So you want them to be less than what you are. Shame on you.

Quote
Q:Do you think God wants less for his children than what you want for yours?
A:No, He wants the best for them as any parent would want. This is why He want us to accept the cure He made for Sin, otherwise we would be dead, just as any parent wouldn't want their child to die and would try the best in their capability to heal them of any sickness they have.

Yes but any parent would not purposely inflict their children with a disease.

So your God purposely made us ill and we have to become his slaves forever for him to cure us of the disease he inflicted upon us.

Quite the God you follow.

Regards
DL

Offline sakura95

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Yes but any parent would not purposely inflict their children with a disease.

So your God purposely made us ill and we have to become his slaves forever for him to cure us of the disease he inflicted upon us.

Quite the God you follow.

Regards
DL

That isn't what Orthodoxy teaches. That's Calvinism!!
My Lord, My Lord, give my worthless soul the illumination of Wisdom in your mercy

Offline Porter ODoran

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That's not even what Calvinism teaches. It's something only opponents of Judaism and Christianity believe.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Greatest I am

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No, I offer to be his servant, which is a freedom from what I naturally am, and he instead makes me his heir.

Then you were basically agreeing with me all this time. You could have said so.

Regards
DL

Offline Volnutt

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You live in the same world we do. How does your God account for the existence of disease?
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Your "cunning" is having an effect on your own mind now?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline minasoliman

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So your God purposely made us ill and we have to become his slaves forever for him to cure us of the disease he inflicted upon us.

Quite the God you follow.

Regards
DL

Why don't you tell us about "your God" then, because all I see out of you is how much you don't like "our God", but you never offer your own alternative understanding.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline sakura95

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That's not even what Calvinism teaches. It's something only opponents of Judaism and Christianity believe.

Predestination, anyone?
« Last Edit: March 23, 2015, 03:36:25 PM by sakura95 »
My Lord, My Lord, give my worthless soul the illumination of Wisdom in your mercy

Offline Greatest I am

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What God desires for us is far beyond anything that our earthly fathers could ever wish for us.

I do not agree. As a father, I want more for my children than God does.

If you do not for yours then you are not much of a father.

Regards
DL
You can't possibly, with your limited and finite will, want as much as God wants for us. Look who is building idols now.

Your bible says that you have two choices. Be a slave to sin or a slave to God.

If you cannot want or will more than those two options for your children then you are not a responsible parent.

Regards
DL

"Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you."
- John 15:15

So your thump negates my thump.

Good cherry picking.

What does Jesus calling someone a friend have to do with God in heaven?

If we were all God's friend then he would not have promised to send the vast majority of us to hell.

I could cherry pick the wide road to hell on narrow path to heaven but your following thump would just negate it. Right?

Regards
DL
What if we choose hell by our own actions? Jesus did call it a path, and a path is something someone chooses to walk.

Scriptures say that God is patient with  us and is not willing that any of us should be lost to him.

If his will is supreme then what makes you think he would lose any of us?

Scriptures use the shepherd analogy to show God's love for all of us. Do you think he does not love you enough to leave the other sheep in heaven and go after you if you are lost?

Do you think he will ever shorten your path enough to have you fall into a hell that he would never have to create in the first place?

Is your faith so weak?

Regards
DL

Offline Porter ODoran

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We don't really have a problem with God being able to save everyone. That would be great and very like him. However, facts are facts, and some folks show quite a plucky dedication to evil.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Greatest I am

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Yes, service to God is freedom, because it exalts us above our lowly state.

God has a family in heaven, so to speak, and you have a family here on earth.

As above so below.

Do the strong of your family serve the weaker members or do you have the weaker members serving the strong?

Your scriptures show Jesus coming to serve man. Why do you think he would reverse his policy in heaven?

Should the strong of your family expect the weaker to serve them?

Regards
DL

Offline Greatest I am

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Yes but any parent would not purposely inflict their children with a disease.

So your God purposely made us ill and we have to become his slaves forever for him to cure us of the disease he inflicted upon us.

Quite the God you follow.

Regards
DL

That isn't what Orthodoxy teaches. That's Calvinism!!

I dealt with what you wrote so that is your teaching.

Regards
DL

Offline Greatest I am

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You live in the same world we do. How does your God account for the existence of disease?

It is to each of us to choose who or what to blame for what is.

As a Gnostic Christian, I am an esoteric ecumenist as well as a naturalist so I attribute evil and diseases to nature and evolution.

You might Google Evolutionary theology to see how they look at things. It is a long of topic issue for here.

I do have an old O.P. though so let me give it but please do not take us too far off topic in this thread. If you want to get into it I can put it on the main board.

=========================

     Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.

Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.

Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

This link speak to theistic evolution.

http://www.youtube.com/user/ProfMTH#g/c/6F8036F680C1DBEB

If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.

Doing evil then is actually forced on us by evolution and the need to survive. Our default position is to cooperate or to do good. I offer this clip as proof of this. You will note that we default to good as it is better for survival.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Regards
DL 



 

Offline Greatest I am

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Your "cunning" is having an effect on your own mind now?

Thanks.

Let us pray it continues.

Regards
DL


Offline Greatest I am

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So your God purposely made us ill and we have to become his slaves forever for him to cure us of the disease he inflicted upon us.

Quite the God you follow.

Regards
DL

Why don't you tell us about "your God" then, because all I see out of you is how much you don't like "our God", but you never offer your own alternative understanding.

I am pleased to comply but as I just noted above, I do not want to go too far off topic and if you want to discuss what I give here, let me know and I can put it on the main board. It too was written to fill your request and is an old O.P.

===========================

Care to compare the Jesus you know to the one I know?

I have been asked to do an O P showing my beliefs and have written a nutshell view to fill that request.
   
I was a skeptic till the age of 39. I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself an esoteric ecumenist and Gnostic Christian. Gnostic Christian because I exemplify this quote from William Blake and that makes me as hated by Christians today as the ancient Gnostics that Constantine had the Christians kill when he bought the Catholic Church.

“Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read'st black where I read white.”

This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible. We tend to recognize the evil ways of the O. T. God where literal Christians will see God’s killing as good. Christians are sheep where Gnostic Christians are goats.

This is perhaps why we see the use of a Jesus scapegoat as immoral, while theists like to make Jesus their beast of burden. An immoral position.

During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically. What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit.

I recognize that I have no proof. That is always the way with apotheosis.
This is also why I prefer to stick to issues of morality because no one has yet been able to prove that God is real and I have no more proof than they for the cosmic consciousness or what I call; the Godhead.

The cosmic consciousness is not a miracle working God. It does not interfere with us save when one of us finds it. Not a common thing from what I can see. It is a part of nature and our next evolutionary step.

I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have exaggerated tribal mentalities and poor morals as they have developed a double standard to be able to stomach their God.

I am rather between a rock and a hard place but this I cannot help.

I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to ignore whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship it but instead, raise my bar of excellence and seek further.

My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.

Since then, I have tried to collect information that would help any that believe that apotheosis is possible, generally not Christians, --- as they do not believe in the mythical esoteric Jesus that I believe in and churches do not dare teach it.

This first clip gives the theological and philosophical interpretation of what Jesus taught and the second clip show what I think is a close representation of the method that helped me push my apotheosis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y

Basically, the usual Christian Jesus is their hero and savior while my version demand that man himself steps up to the plate and save himself.

Which version do you think is more moral and deserving of praise and why?
 
Regards
DL



Offline sakura95

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Yes but any parent would not purposely inflict their children with a disease.

So your God purposely made us ill and we have to become his slaves forever for him to cure us of the disease he inflicted upon us.

Quite the God you follow.

Regards
DL

That isn't what Orthodoxy teaches. That's Calvinism!!

I dealt with what you wrote so that is your teaching.

Regards
DL

Here's what I wrote,

Quote
Q:Do you think God wants less for his children than what you want for yours?
A:No, He wants the best for them as any parent would want. This is why He want us to accept the cure He made for Sin, otherwise we would be dead, just as any parent wouldn't want their child to die and would try the best in their capability to heal them of any sickness they have.

Where is the implication that God is responsible for Sin?
My Lord, My Lord, give my worthless soul the illumination of Wisdom in your mercy

Offline minasoliman

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So GIA, I take it you believe either there is no God or that the totality of all existence is "God", including nature, and that humanity makes its own path.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Greatest I am

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We don't really have a problem with God being able to save everyone. That would be great and very like him. However, facts are facts, and some folks show quite a plucky dedication to evil.

OH YEE OF LITTLE FAITH.

Just kidding buddy.

Then you do not believe your scriptures. You guys are really trying to put callouses on my two typing fingers today so I hope no one minds my posting some older material.

This speaks to your savior ideas but has what I would tell you.

====================

You will note that we are all to be saved through repentance and not the murder of an innocent man.

 -----------------------
The following 2 quotes are why I call what God did murder. As you can see, a sacrifice was not required.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
 
1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

As you can see all are saved without a sacrifice.

================

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. That immorality does not change even if Jesus would have volunteered, which he did not do.

Jesus said to pick up your cross and follow him but I see that you have taken the line that someone else should pay your dues. Quite manly and moral that. Not.

Do you really think someone else can pay your dues and allow you to shirk your just reward?

Deuteronomy 24:16  (ESV) “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20   (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

As above so below.

If you had God's power, would you not be able to find a way that does not go against the wisdom of Jesus and the bible?

Perhaps like being man enough to step up to your own demands for a worthy sacrifice?

That is what a good God would do.

Regards
DL

Offline Porter ODoran

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You guys are really trying to put callouses on my two typing fingers today.

You might feel less ineffective if you'd stop teaching us our religion and start teaching us yours.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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You hear but do not listen, talk but do not speak.  For going on two years now in this and other forums you have literally posted hundreds of these pointless little diatribes, redefining terms to fit your narrative and telling us what our theology is so you can then refute it.  I've seen you quote the vatican in protestant forums and you have continuously told us we believe in original sin and penal substitution. I know it has been asked before but I am still wondering what you are doing here.  Clearly it is not to learn or to have honest debate.
"However hard I try, I find it impossible to construct anything greater than these three words, 'Love one another' —only to the end, and without exceptions: then all is justified and life is illumined, whereas otherwise it is an abomination and a burden."

—Mother Maria of Paris

Offline Greatest I am

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Yes but any parent would not purposely inflict their children with a disease.

So your God purposely made us ill and we have to become his slaves forever for him to cure us of the disease he inflicted upon us.

Quite the God you follow.

Regards
DL

That isn't what Orthodoxy teaches. That's Calvinism!!

I dealt with what you wrote so that is your teaching.

Regards
DL

Here's what I wrote,

Quote
Q:Do you think God wants less for his children than what you want for yours?
A:No, He wants the best for them as any parent would want. This is why He want us to accept the cure He made for Sin, otherwise we would be dead, just as any parent wouldn't want their child to die and would try the best in their capability to heal them of any sickness they have.

Where is the implication that God is responsible for Sin?

Is sin evil? Does your bible not say that God created evil as well as good?

In the beginning, all there was was God. Everything that can possibly be had to emanate from him.

Who else can create anything to add to what is?

Certainly not you or I.

God is said to be the epitome of all attributes and that is why we are not to put any God or any other person above him.

Whose name would you place above God's for creating evil when it is God himself who wrote the tree of good and evil?

Regards
DL

Offline Papist

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Yes but any parent would not purposely inflict their children with a disease.

So your God purposely made us ill and we have to become his slaves forever for him to cure us of the disease he inflicted upon us.

Quite the God you follow.

Regards
DL

That isn't what Orthodoxy teaches. That's Calvinism!!

I dealt with what you wrote so that is your teaching.

Regards
DL

Here's what I wrote,

Quote
Q:Do you think God wants less for his children than what you want for yours?
A:No, He wants the best for them as any parent would want. This is why He want us to accept the cure He made for Sin, otherwise we would be dead, just as any parent wouldn't want their child to die and would try the best in their capability to heal them of any sickness they have.

Where is the implication that God is responsible for Sin?

Is sin evil? Does your bible not say that God created evil as well as good?

In the beginning, all there was was God. Everything that can possibly be had to emanate from him.

Who else can create anything to add to what is?

Certainly not you or I.

God is said to be the epitome of all attributes and that is why we are not to put any God or any other person above him.

Whose name would you place above God's for creating evil when it is God himself who wrote the tree of good and evil?

Regards
DL
No God did not create evil.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline sakura95

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And I would agree with him. My desires are for my children to have the best possible end. If for any reason, like the ones you state I do not get what I want, then I will settle for the best that my child can give even if that is near nothing. I don't know why you automatically think I would be such a poor parent as to give a guilt trip to my child for not meeting the expectation that he is not capable of giving. Your bias and hate is showing and I hope you can supress it.

Yes this is true. The problem though is that you desire your child to be "above you". To go beyond your achievements. Isn't that imposing a high expectation on your child? It presupposes that your child is merely a "mean" to establish an "end" which is the achievement of being higher than you. The best possible end is to allow the child to do the best he/she can do within his/her capabilities, without imposing any set criterion for the expectation of this achievement.

Quote
Why can we not become like God? He is omnipotent ands all powerful and can create us to be whatever he wants us to be. Right?

Or are you saying God has limits?

This is not what I implied. We can become like God which is what Theosis is. But we cannot become Him since we cannot comprehend His Divine Essence. God is omnipotent and can create us to be whatever He wants us to be and He created us as His children in His image. This means we must have Free Will in order that as children, we can enter into a relationship of love with Him. God could also simply create us as in His Likeness, but the problem is that there wouldn't be any personal experience of learning and developing knowledge which means, we wouldn't learn anything.

Also, who are you to judge how God creates the Universe and executes His plan? If He want to execute His plan for Creation in a certain pathway, there's no stopping Him. What you are doing is to imply that God could have only created us in a single way when He has an infinite number of means to do so rather than making us in His likeness straight away.

Quote
If God was concerned for the wellbeing of humans he would not have created a hell for those he rejects.

In Orthodoxy, Hell is the rejection of God's Divine Love which said rejection is experienced as torment. That's different than throwing someone into Hell for rejecting Him since the person brought the Hell upon him/herself.

Quote
The question was to your desires and has nothing to do with theirs.
So you want them to be less than what you are. Shame on you.

No, because I mentioned that "it's up to them" if I want my child to become say an engineer but he/she decides to be a doctor, it is his/her choice and I respect that.

Letting my child decide for him/herself s not making them to be "less than me" since it's up to them. They can be higher than me and I'll still love them. They may not and I'll still love them.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2015, 04:23:30 PM by sakura95 »
My Lord, My Lord, give my worthless soul the illumination of Wisdom in your mercy

Offline Greatest I am

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So GIA, I take it you believe either there is no God or that the totality of all existence is "God", including nature, and that humanity makes its own path.

If you can't see God in all, you can't see God at all.
-Anon

The only God fit to rule men and women is a man or a woman. That is how it has always been and all we have ever had. Who but a man or woman can express the will of God?

There have always only been men and women of good hearts able to express God’s real will.

Like Jesus and his wife who preached to seek God perpetually even after finding a bit of him or her within the self. We are to perpetually raise the bar of excellence for ourselves and our God.

==============

Remember that Christianity and Gnostic Christian roots are Jewish.

Apology for calling myself God.

Adam and Eve became as Gods when they gained a moral sense and no longer had their mind cut off from intelligent thought. As our primordial ancestors, we inherit that same trait even though Christianity wrongly thinks that to be evil and a fall. Retaining dominion over the earth, humans never revoked this inherited trait of a moral sense, --- and the right for man to judge himself. Jesus highlights this when he took the seat of judgement at God’s right hand.

When I use terms like “I am God”, or “you are God”, I am not speaking of the traditional miracle working God of scriptures and myths. He does not exist as far as we can know as he has never made an appearance to prove his reality.

What I am trying to convey to you by saying that you are a God in your own right is to be master of yourself and you need not be a sheep. You can, as Jesus says, pick up your burdens and responsibilities for your sins and follow his mind set. Be a shepherd. Lead by example.

What I am trying to convey is that the only God you can ever know is the good you find within yourself. It's your ideal of God and of the Jesus or Christ mind. That is quite different from me or someone thinking they are the traditional creator God, or thinking that they are more than anyone else. Both Jesus and the Christ in these myths are for equality. Not the misogyny that we presently enjoy. That is another topic though. We are to be co-equal with Jesus.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Jesus would explain this concept as one just seeing that they have joined God’s Divine Council by embracing his own Christ mind. Or better said, as this is the more eastern Jesus, we activate our pineal gland and open our third eye.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Council

Regards
DL

Offline sakura95

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Is sin evil? Does your bible not say that God created evil as well as good?

In the beginning, all there was was God. Everything that can possibly be had to emanate from him.

Who else can create anything to add to what is?

Certainly not you or I.

God is said to be the epitome of all attributes and that is why we are not to put any God or any other person above him.

Whose name would you place above God's for creating evil when it is God himself who wrote the tree of good and evil?

Regards
DL


Yes, Sin is evil. But where in the Bible does it imply that God made "evil". Evil is simply the absence of "Good" just as Darkness, the absence of light.

So in this sense, God did not create Sin and evil, but without His Goodness there is only Evil.

The Tree is not the "Tree of Good and Evil", it's the "Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil". St Irenaeus proposed that Adam and Eve are immature when created and hence when partaking of its fruit which is reserved for maturity, it led to their corruption.

« Last Edit: March 23, 2015, 04:19:50 PM by sakura95 »
My Lord, My Lord, give my worthless soul the illumination of Wisdom in your mercy

Offline Greatest I am

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You guys are really trying to put callouses on my two typing fingers today.

You might feel less ineffective if you'd stop teaching us our religion and start teaching us yours.

It is just that you are not paying attention as I am always doing both be I preaching for mine or against yours.

Telling you what is wrong with your belief should be telling you that the opposite is what I believe.

Said of Gnostic Christian versus Christian reading practices.

“Both read the Bible day and night; but you read black where I read white.”
William Blake.

I would take this further and advise you to read any scriptures from as many POV as is within you. Question everything including yourself.

The bible, if read as a book of wisdom, does have much wisdom though.

You just have to read it the way Gnostics do and revers a lot of the Christian morals.

Christians call evil good while Gnostic Christians call evil, evil.

I E. Gnostic Christians think that bible God, the demiurge to us, is quite immoral for thinking that torturing King David’s baby for 6 days before finally killing it is quite evil while Christians think that a good form of justice.

Regards
DL

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Is sin evil? Does your bible not say that God created evil as well as good?

In the beginning, all there was was God. Everything that can possibly be had to emanate from him.

Who else can create anything to add to what is?

Certainly not you or I.

God is said to be the epitome of all attributes and that is why we are not to put any God or any other person above him.

Whose name would you place above God's for creating evil when it is God himself who wrote the tree of good and evil?

Regards
DL


Yes, Sin is evil. But where in the Bible does it imply that God made "evil". Evil is simply the absence of "Good" just as Darkness, the absence of light.

So in this sense, God did not create Sin and evil, but without His Goodness there is only Evil.
Yes, evil is simply a privation of a due good. You will never find a bag of evil lying around in the world.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline minasoliman

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Dear GIA or DL,

I want to remind you that in your past, you have been warned for (outside this section) blasphemy, but in this section also, that is the Free-For-All, you can be hit with insulting figures in our faith.  So I ask you to tread carefully.  Furthermore, you also have been warned and muted before for various ad hominems and thread commandeering.  What I see here is borderline on thread commandeering, seeing that you post at an incredible speed, I find that a lot of your posts are straight up copy and past from various other forum websites.  If you are not able to engage in a discussion, you might incur upon yourself a very severe penalty.  You are forewarned.  Please do not reply to this green text.  If you wish to discuss my warning, do so only privately.

God bless.

Mina
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Greatest I am

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You hear but do not listen, talk but do not speak.  For going on two years now in this and other forums you have literally posted hundreds of these pointless little diatribes, redefining terms to fit your narrative and telling us what our theology is so you can then refute it.  I've seen you quote the vatican in protestant forums and you have continuously told us we believe in original sin and penal substitution. I know it has been asked before but I am still wondering what you are doing here.  Clearly it is not to learn or to have honest debate.

Jesus sought out the sick. Not those who were well. I must also be true to my Christ mind.

I do not love enough yet but love demands it and I am trying to learn to love more.

Many like you just show me how to hate more.

Proverbs 3:12
For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

Note how most to date have not loved enough to even try to correct me. I am either correct in my positions or there is little love in this place.

Regards
DL

Offline Greatest I am

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No God did not create evil.

Who is God's co-creator?

Regards
DL

Offline minasoliman

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Note how most to date have not loved enough to even try to correct me. I am either correct in my positions or there is little love in this place.


I think when people reply to engage in your discussion, people seem to care enough to correct you.  To place some sort of possibility that you are corrects vs little love seems to avoid the obvious "third option":  you're ignoring people's correction of you.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline minasoliman

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With that in mind, I can get a sense of your beliefs.  But my disagreements are much more fundamental than the quoting of Scriptures.  If I am my own God, I can attain some sort of fulfillment in all I do, only to end up to lose my own existence, or can I be powerful enough to continue to exist?  My only hope would probably be in my progeny, but I wouldn't be there to love my progeny and see them grow, perhaps to become better than I can even imagine how they would be better than me, which I agree with you would be a great joy.  Nevertheless, I still would cease to exist, and then there will come a time when they will cease to exist.  A couple of possibilities:

1.  We all come into existence only to cease to exist
2.  We come into "re-existence" after we cease to exist, but we seem to have no memory of it at all beforehand, which then makes no difference
3.  We come into existence that we may live for a higher purpose, that causes us to continue to exist even after we end our lives here

On this third possibility I build up my faith.  The first two ends in vanity to me.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2015, 04:39:40 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Greatest I am

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[
Quote
quote author=Greatest I am link=topic=64193.msg1271465#msg1271465 date=1427138906]
And I would agree with him. My desires are for my children to have the best possible end. If for any reason, like the ones you state I do not get what I want, then I will settle for the best that my child can give even if that is near nothing. I don't know why you automatically think I would be such a poor parent as to give a guilt trip to my child for not meeting the expectation that he is not capable of giving. Your bias and hate is showing and I hope you can supress it.

Yes this is true. The problem though is that you desire your child to be "above you". To go beyond your achievements. Isn't that imposing a high expectation on your child? It presupposes that your child is merely a "mean" to establish an "end" which is the achievement of being higher than you. The best possible end is to allow the child to do the best he/she can do within his/her capabilities, without imposing any set criterion for the expectation of this achievement.

Showing my desire is not setting an unrealistic goal for my child when that goal recognizes the age of the child.

When I sat to teach my sons how to tie their laces, I showed that I expected they could do it and eventually they did. If I would have stopped expecting it and given up after the first few tries, they would have failed for a longer time than necessary. Goal setting is how we motivate others and ourselves. Psychology 101.

Quote
Quote
Why can we not become like God? He is omnipotent ands all powerful and can create us to be whatever he wants us to be. Right?

Or are you saying God has limits?

This is not what I implied. We can become like God which is what Theosis is. But we cannot become Him since we cannot comprehend His Divine Essence. God is omnipotent and can create us to be whatever He wants us to be and He created us as His children in His image. This means we must have Free Will in order that as children, we can enter into a relationship of love with Him. God could also simply create us as in His Likeness, but the problem is that there wouldn't be any personal experience of learning and developing knowledge which means, we wouldn't learn anything.

No one said we would become the original God just as I did not say that your child would become you.

You say that you can gain theosis which is Gnosis of the divine essence yet you say you cannot know the divine essence. How in hell can I even speak to this?

As to free will, how can we have free will with God's commands saying that if we do our will and not his, we get to burn in hell forever.

Look at what happened to A & E the moment they did their will and not God's. He threw a fit on the whole world. If you believe in the fall that is. You are likely not aware that this Jewish myth carries their interpretation of man's elevation and not his fall. They saw nothing wrong in man developing a moral sense. You would not give yours up I am sure so why would you think it wrong for your children to develop one and follow in your demiurge God to do evil for A & E doing the right thing and choosing sight over blindness?

Quote
Also, who are you to judge how God creates the Universe and executes His plan?

Who are you not to and end following Satan?

Follow this scripture as I do and improve your morals.

1 Thesalonian 5;21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Quote
If He want to execute His plan for Creation in a certain pathway, there's no stopping Him.


So much for the free will you keep harping on.

Quote
What you are doing is to imply that God could have only created us in a single way when He has an infinite number of means to do so rather than making us in His likeness straight away.

This is your imagination.

Quote
Quote
If God was concerned for the wellbeing of humans he would not have created a hell for those he rejects.

In Orthodoxy, Hell is the rejection of God's Divine Love which said rejection is experienced as torment. That's different than throwing someone into Hell for rejecting Him since the person brought the Hell upon him/herself.

Love, like faith, must have works and deeds and reciprocity from the other to create that love. Love is a circle and not a one way street.

If the kind of love you speak of was real then God would be here and now serving his people. He is not ands thus shows no love for us.
Quote
Quote
The question was to your desires and has nothing to do with theirs.
So you want them to be less than what you are. Shame on you.

No, because I mentioned that "it's up to them" if I want my child to become say an engineer but he/she decides to be a doctor, it is his/her choice and I respect that.

Letting my child decide for him/herself s not making them to be "less than me" since it's up to them. They can be higher than me and I'll still love them. They may not and I'll still love them.
[/quote]

Correct and all that has nothing to do with what  should be your initial desire to have them reach their fittest which you should consider to be more fit than you.

Regards
DL

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No God did not create evil.

Who is God's co-creator?

Regards
DL

The Orthodox do not believe that God is a series of emanations as do the Gnostics and we do not believe in syzygies.

God exists because he exists; his Hebrew name is literally "I am that I am".  We believe God consists of three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, who are consubstantial and coeternal, coexisting in a union of perfect love.  But we know God only through His energies; his essence remains hidden and incomprehensible.  St Gregory the Theologian warned that attempting to contemplate the divine essence can lead to madness, and I fear this is the mistake the more earnest Gnostics like Valentinus made.

Other Gnostics like Simon Magus were just religious hucksters, but if you look at Valentinus or Mani I think you see people who honestly believed in Gnosticism but were basically mad, having attempted to contemplate the Divine Esssence using Platonic and neo Platonic mystical approaches.  Which is why we see the bizaree cosmologies centered around emanations proceeding from Bythus, syzygies, the incompetent Demiurge associated with the Old Testament God, and other peculiarities.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline Greatest I am

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Is sin evil? Does your bible not say that God created evil as well as good?

In the beginning, all there was was God. Everything that can possibly be had to emanate from him.

Who else can create anything to add to what is?

Certainly not you or I.

God is said to be the epitome of all attributes and that is why we are not to put any God or any other person above him.

Whose name would you place above God's for creating evil when it is God himself who wrote the tree of good and evil?

Regards
DL


Yes, Sin is evil. But where in the Bible does it imply that God made "evil". Evil is simply the absence of "Good" just as Darkness, the absence of light.

So in this sense, God did not create Sin and evil, but without His Goodness there is only Evil.

The Tree is not the "Tree of Good and Evil", it's the "Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil". St Irenaeus proposed that Adam and Eve are immature when created and hence when partaking of its fruit which is reserved for maturity, it led to their corruption.

If not mature in Gen 3 then why did God tell them to reproduce way back in Gen 1?

But really, I have had enough of your immaturity. Seems that all you have is dogma and have not really thought of what you believe.

Go away and try to recognise that denial of facts does not make facts go away.

Amos 3:6 (KJV)
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?

Regards
DL

Offline Greatest I am

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With that in mind, I can get a sense of your beliefs.  But my disagreements are much more fundamental than the quoting of Scriptures.  If I am my own God, I can attain some sort of fulfillment in all I do, only to end up to lose my own existence, or can I be powerful enough to continue to exist?  My only hope would probably be in my progeny, but I wouldn't be there to love my progeny and see them grow, perhaps to become better than I can even imagine how they would be better than me, which I agree with you would be a great joy.  Nevertheless, I still would cease to exist, and then there will come a time when they will cease to exist.  A couple of possibilities:

1.  We all come into existence only to cease to exist
2.  We come into "re-existence" after we cease to exist, but we seem to have no memory of it at all beforehand, which then makes no difference
3.  We come into existence that we may live for a higher purpose, that causes us to continue to exist even after we end our lives here

On this third possibility I build up my faith.  The first two ends in vanity to me.

Did Jesus cease to exist when finding his Christ mind and Father? No he did not.

So I do not know why you think you would if you follow his advice.

Have a bit of history and then see if you can do as Jesus asks you to do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D

The thinking shown below is the Gnostic Christian’s goal as taught by Jesus but know that any belief can be internalized to activate your higher mind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded
   
This method and mind set is how you become I am and brethren to Jesus, in the esoteric sense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y

When you can name your God, I am, and mean yourself, you will begin to know the only God you will ever find. Becoming a God is to become more fully human and a brethren to Jesus.

Regards
DL


 

Offline minasoliman

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[
No God did not create evil.

Who is God's co-creator?

Regards
DL

The Orthodox do not believe that God is a series of emanations as do the Gnostics and we do not believe in syzygies.

God exists because he exists; his Hebrew name is literally "I am that I am".  We believe God consists of three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, who are consubstantial and coeternal, coexisting in a union of perfect love.  But we know God only through His energies; his essence remains hidden and incomprehensible.  St Gregory the Theologian warned that attempting to contemplate the divine essence can lead to madness, and I fear this is the mistake the more earnest Gnostics like Valentinus made.

Other Gnostics like Simon Magus were just religious hucksters, but if you look at Valentinus or Mani I think you see people who honestly believed in Gnosticism but were basically mad, having attempted to contemplate the Divine Esssence using Platonic and neo Platonic mystical approaches.  Which is why we see the bizaree cosmologies centered around emanations proceeding from Bythus, syzygies, the incompetent Demiurge associated with the Old Testament God, and other peculiarities.

I think you need to start with something simpler.  The problem with this post is that GIA/DL does not even know what all of that means.  As evident in his posts, there seems to be a disconnect between how he sees our beliefs and how we see it.  So I would say all of this falls on deaf ears (or blind eyes whoever is reading this).  If you are to speak to a child about the faith, this is not the type of language we use.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline minasoliman

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With that in mind, I can get a sense of your beliefs.  But my disagreements are much more fundamental than the quoting of Scriptures.  If I am my own God, I can attain some sort of fulfillment in all I do, only to end up to lose my own existence, or can I be powerful enough to continue to exist?  My only hope would probably be in my progeny, but I wouldn't be there to love my progeny and see them grow, perhaps to become better than I can even imagine how they would be better than me, which I agree with you would be a great joy.  Nevertheless, I still would cease to exist, and then there will come a time when they will cease to exist.  A couple of possibilities:

1.  We all come into existence only to cease to exist
2.  We come into "re-existence" after we cease to exist, but we seem to have no memory of it at all beforehand, which then makes no difference
3.  We come into existence that we may live for a higher purpose, that causes us to continue to exist even after we end our lives here

On this third possibility I build up my faith.  The first two ends in vanity to me.

Did Jesus cease to exist when finding his Christ mind and Father? No he did not.

So I do not know why you think you would if you follow his advice.

Have a bit of history and then see if you can do as Jesus asks you to do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D

The thinking shown below is the Gnostic Christian’s goal as taught by Jesus but know that any belief can be internalized to activate your higher mind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded
   
This method and mind set is how you become I am and brethren to Jesus, in the esoteric sense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y

When you can name your God, I am, and mean yourself, you will begin to know the only God you will ever find. Becoming a God is to become more fully human and a brethren to Jesus.

Regards
DL

You see, I never even mentioned anything about Jesus.  And I have seen those videos before.  None of them seem to answer the lingering thoughts in my head, where the idea that I am God fails, at least to me.  They don't convince me at all that "I am God" simply because I find no ultimate satisfaction or fulfillment in this.  To be "God" is to be "eternally existent", which I am not.  I can only live with very little aim in life, and then cease to exist to remember it all.  Such is not purpose.  It is simply vanity.  All these videos do is dignify vanity, not true purpose.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Greatest I am

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No God did not create evil.

Who is God's co-creator?

Regards
DL

The Orthodox do not believe that God is a series of emanations as do the Gnostics and we do not believe in syzygies.

God exists because he exists; his Hebrew name is literally "I am that I am".  We believe God consists of three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, who are consubstantial and coeternal, coexisting in a union of perfect love.  But we know God only through His energies; his essence remains hidden and incomprehensible.  St Gregory the Theologian warned that attempting to contemplate the divine essence can lead to madness, and I fear this is the mistake the more earnest Gnostics like Valentinus made.

Other Gnostics like Simon Magus were just religious hucksters, but if you look at Valentinus or Mani I think you see people who honestly believed in Gnosticism but were basically mad, having attempted to contemplate the Divine Esssence using Platonic and neo Platonic mystical approaches.  Which is why we see the bizaree cosmologies centered around emanations proceeding from Bythus, syzygies, the incompetent Demiurge associated with the Old Testament God, and other peculiarities.

I have Jesus and his words just above in that second link.

Please have a look.

There is a lot of bogus information about Gnostic Christians perpetuated by Christianity and invented to justify their decimation of Gnostic Christians when they helped usher in the Dark Ages and Inquisition. That is partly why I try to stick to moral issues and not faith issues.

As to the Trinity, many that Christianity decimated were killed because they did not want to follow Constantine's Christians who were forced to adopt the Christian Trinity concept on pain of death.

Christians have looked foolish ever since when trying to explain their three headed God.

Regards
DL


Offline sakura95

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Showing my desire is not setting an unrealistic goal for my child when that goal recognizes the age of the child.

When I sat to teach my sons how to tie their laces, I showed that I expected they could do it and eventually they did. If I would have stopped expecting it and given up after the first few tries, they would have failed for a longer time than necessary. Goal setting is how we motivate others and ourselves. Psychology 101.

There's nothing wrong with this since it's necessary to their self development. However in the sense of the goal of "being greater than I", that is itself a selfish desire for the child in question. Basic Ethics 101.

That said, nothing wrong with teaching a child and using goal setting but this is not in the sense of "being greater than I" which is what you proposed as the end goal of raising a child. The problem is "what defines greater than I?" you definitely have standards that constitute that which is "Greater than I" and with those standards, it is basically treating the child as a means to an end, of actualizing these standards that will be "Greater than I"

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No one said we would become the original God just as I did not say that your child would become you.

You say that you can gain theosis which is Gnosis of the divine essence yet you say you cannot know the divine essence. How in hell can I even speak to this?

Yes but equivalent or greater than the original God is your goal or that your child becoming greater than you would be your goal. This(the former) raises the omnipotence paradox, "How can God make something stronger than Him?". The later, raises ethical concerns.

Theosis in Orthodoxy is not "Gnosis of the Divine Essence". God's Essence is unknowable and incomprehensible by definition.

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As to free will, how can we have free will with God's commands saying that if we do our will and not his, we get to burn in hell forever.

The problem is that doing God's Will is to accept His Divine Grace, the cure of humanity's Sinful nature. To do "our will" is to submit to this nature and the consequence of this is eternal torment within His presence. After all, when there's light, there isn't darkness. So the sinfulness within the being would experience torment as Sin and God's Goodness are incompatible with each other.

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Look at what happened to A & E the moment they did their will and not God's. He threw a fit on the whole world. If you believe in the fall that is. You are likely not aware that this Jewish myth carries their interpretation of man's elevation and not his fall. They saw nothing wrong in man developing a moral sense. You would not give yours up I am sure so why would you think it wrong for your children to develop one and follow in your demiurge God to do evil for A & E doing the right thing and choosing sight over blindness?

I follow the viewpoint of St Irenaeus with regards to the Fall. Adam and Eve will receive the fruit eventually when they mature but they tempted by the Serpent and being immature decided to partake of this fruit which because of their immaturity, caused them corruption. This is why the Incarnation of Christ is necessary as a cure to this corruption.

Knowledge is power and power can be exercised in positive and negative ways. Because of this knowledge requires maturity to ensure its correct use.

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Who are you not to and end following Satan?

Follow this scripture as I do and improve your morals.

1 Thesalonian 5;21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

So how does 1 Thessalonians 5:21 oppose my viewpoint? 

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So much for the free will you keep harping on.

This doesn't mean that there isn't Free Will. It just means that God could have executed His plan for Creation through various means of His choosing or even not to. But, the way He does it includes bestowing upon human beings, Freedom of Will.

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Love, like faith, must have works and deeds and reciprocity from the other to create that love. Love is a circle and not a one way street.

Yes and God does this. The principle of synergy in Orthodoxy is an example of this. This statement only applies for monergistic viewpoints of Salvation.

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If the kind of love you speak of was real then God would be here and now serving his people. He is not ands thus shows no love for us.

He is "serving" His people in the sense of saving them from corruption. If He appeared here and now, it would invoke fear and incomprehension from us given that we cannot comprehend His Divine Essence.

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Correct and all that has nothing to do with what  should be your initial desire to have them reach their fittest which you should consider to be more fit than you.

This shouldn't be the case since we wouldn't be bothered whether or not the child is going to be "greater than I". We just let the child do his/her best within his/her capabilities and appreciate that rather than to expect them to be "greater than I" which is what you are expecting.

My Lord, My Lord, give my worthless soul the illumination of Wisdom in your mercy

Offline wgw

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You're reading a minor prophet out of context and ignoring the Orthodox interpretation thereof.  You're attacking a caricature of our faith inspired by Protestant Christianity.  Now as I've said elsewhere, I would not go into the Ecclesia Gnostica and debate with Biahop Hoeller.  And he doesn't go into our churches and debate with us.  But if you do want to challenge us, you need to understand our faith.

You need to read the Philokalia, On the Incarnation by St. Athansius, Against Heresies by St. Irenaeus, the Mystagogical Catechesis of St. Cyril of Jerusalem, the Panarion of St. Epiphanius of Salamis, and the writings of St. Dionysius the Aereopagite.  You really need an Orthodox Study Bible which summarizes the Orthodox interpretation of each verse.  The Fathers interpreted the Bible as a whole, avoiding eisegesis, and the result is that each verse has layers of literal, typological, allegorical and prophetic meaning.  And the most important commentaries, which would take years to read, are neatly summarized in the Orthodox Study Bible.  I have one and could look up how we interpret Amos 3:6 but I'm unwilling to do for you that which you should do for yourself if you want a serious dialogue with us.  And this being Lent, I also really don't care.  The KJV uses the somewhat defective Masoretic Text for the Old Testament; most Orthodox reject it and favor the Septuagint or the Peshitta, which are dramatically different.  So we can't begin to debate with you using the Masoretic text because we don't accept that version of the Bible as authoritative.  Again, if you get an Orthodox Study Bible, the text is corrected by the Septuagint and will point you in the right direction.

Also you claim to be Gnostic, but that could mean anything.  For a fair argument we need to understand which Gnostic sect you represent.  Id you are a leader of some new Gnostic movement we need to see your scriptural canon, your creed and your doctrines.  And if you haven't defined those then we can't have a dialogue, because you can just alter your position at will and remain a moving target, and this is a waste of time.  Even arguing with Gnostics in general is arguably a waste of time and has been since St. Irenaeus thoroughly demolished your belief system in the late second centuries.  And if Against Heresies isn't convincing to you I doubt we can say anything that would change your mind.

But consider this: the Orthodox view humility as paramount.  We dress humbly, we live humbly, we act humbly, and when we fail to do so we beg for forgiveness.  But you seem to be sort of exalting yourself with your username "Greatest I am" which is almost shocking to us on the Orthodox fourm.  Please don't take this as a personal insult, I'm just pointing out you're really likely wasting your time unless you adopt a more delicate and tactful approach. 
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline wgw

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By the way the Orthodox do believe in Theosis or deification but we do not believe we are God or will become equal to God.  We are finite beings.  Pans we in humility prostrate ourselves before our Lord Jesus Christ and beg his forgiveness for our sins.  That's our way.  If you have a different way I am prepared to respect that.  But I don't go to Gnostic forums or Buddhist forums or Hindu forums or Muslim forums and attack their faith.  Even my dialogues with Protestants as a former Protestant have been disappointing if not apiritually harmful.  So I think you're really wasting your time here.

I am not God, nor will I ever presume to equate myself to Him.  I bow before His glory in terror.  And I am happy doing this, because I am a sinner and am unworthy.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline Greatest I am

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[
Quote
quote author=Greatest I am link=topic=64193.msg1271549#msg1271549 date=1427143796]
Showing my desire is not setting an unrealistic goal for my child when that goal recognizes the age of the child.

When I sat to teach my sons how to tie their laces, I showed that I expected they could do it and eventually they did. If I would have stopped expecting it and given up after the first few tries, they would have failed for a longer time than necessary. Goal setting is how we motivate others and ourselves. Psychology 101.

There's nothing wrong with this since it's necessary to their self development. However in the sense of the goal of "being greater than I", that is itself a selfish desire for the child in question. Basic Ethics 101.

Exactly. That is our selfish gene at work and without it we would not want to be the fittest. It is what stops us from backsliding.

Quote
That said, nothing wrong with teaching a child and using goal setting but this is not in the sense of "being greater than I" which is what you proposed as the end goal of raising a child. The problem is "what defines greater than I?" you definitely have standards that constitute that which is "Greater than I" and with those standards, it is basically treating the child as a means to an end, of actualizing these standards that will be "Greater than I"

Google Freud's Father Complex and see that if a son does not have it then there is something wrong with his instincts.

Quote
Quote
No one said we would become the original God just as I did not say that your child would become you.

You say that you can gain theosis which is Gnosis of the divine essence yet you say you cannot know the divine essence. How in hell can I even speak to this?

Yes but equivalent or greater than the original God is your goal or that your child becoming greater than you would be your goal. This(the former) raises the omnipotence paradox, "How can God make something stronger than Him?". The later, raises ethical concerns.

Omnipotence is a lie. If not, God would reproduce true with his Asherah.

Quote
Theosis in Orthodoxy is not "Gnosis of the Divine Essence". God's Essence is unknowable and incomprehensible by definition.

Good then you will stop saying God is omnipotent.

Quote
Quote
As to free will, how can we have free will with God's commands saying that if we do our will and not his, we get to burn in hell forever.

The problem is that doing God's Will is to accept His Divine Grace, the cure of humanity's Sinful nature. To do "our will" is to submit to this nature and the consequence of this is eternal torment within His presence. After all, when there's light, there isn't darkness. So the sinfulness within the being would experience torment as Sin and God's Goodness are incompatible with each other.

If no darkness existed in the beginning when God was all there was, then sin by your definition could not have come to be unless God created it.

We have come full circle on evil and you have to accept God created it or that it does not exist. Your choice.
Quote
Quote
Look at what happened to A & E the moment they did their will and not God's. He threw a fit on the whole world. If you believe in the fall that is. You are likely not aware that this Jewish myth carries their interpretation of man's elevation and not his fall. They saw nothing wrong in man developing a moral sense. You would not give yours up I am sure so why would you think it wrong for your children to develop one and follow in your demiurge God to do evil for A & E doing the right thing and choosing sight over blindness?

I follow the viewpoint of St Irenaeus with regards to the Fall. Adam and Eve will receive the fruit eventually when they mature but they tempted by the Serpent and being immature decided to partake of this fruit which because of their immaturity, caused them corruption. This is why the Incarnation of Christ is necessary as a cure to this corruption.

You both ignore that if God had not put Satan right there beside Eve, an immoral and really stupid act, then Eve would not have been tempted and God would not have needlessly have had to have his own son killed to reverse his own stupid and immoral mistake.

Your cowardly God sent his son instead or having the balls to step up himself.

Would you send your child to make up for your mistake like God did with Jesus?

Quote
Knowledge is power and power can be exercised in positive and negative ways. Because of this knowledge requires maturity to ensure its correct use.

Exactly and God must have thought them mature as he told them to reproduce way back in Gen 1. Are you even reading what I write woman?
Quote
Quote
Who are you not to and end following Satan?

Follow this scripture as I do and improve your morals.

1 Thesalonian 5;21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

So how does 1 Thessalonians 5:21 oppose my viewpoint? 

Quote
So much for the free will you keep harping on.

This doesn't mean that there isn't Free Will. It just means that God could have executed His plan for Creation through various means of His choosing or even not to. But, the way He does it includes bestowing upon human beings, Freedom of Will.

Quote
Love, like faith, must have works and deeds and reciprocity from the other to create that love. Love is a circle and not a one way street.

Yes and God does this. The principle of synergy in Orthodoxy is an example of this. This statement only applies for monergistic viewpoints of Salvation.

Quote
If the kind of love you speak of was real then God would be here and now serving his people. He is not ands thus shows no love for us.

He is "serving" His people in the sense of saving them from corruption. If He appeared here and now, it would invoke fear and incomprehension from us given that we cannot comprehend His Divine Essence.

Quote
Correct and all that has nothing to do with what  should be your initial desire to have them reach their fittest which you should consider to be more fit than you.

This shouldn't be the case since we wouldn't be bothered whether or not the child is going to be "greater than I". We just let the child do his/her best within his/her capabilities and appreciate that rather than to expect them to be "greater than I" which is what you are expecting.
[/quote]

You want more. Earn it. There is no point in my writing what you do not read.

Regards
DL



Enough of the blasphemy! You are now under the maximum penalty short of banning.

- PtA
« Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 02:30:43 AM by PeterTheAleut »

Offline Greatest I am

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  Please don't take this as a personal insult, I'm just pointing out you're really likely wasting your time unless you adopt a more delicate and tactful approach.

Is that what Jesus did when throwing his fit at the temple?

I never expect to do well when I go to an idol worshiper site who have ignored Jesus' teaching of seeking God.

Idol worshipers of a dead God do not seek the living God Jesus said should be sought.

Regards
DL

Offline Greatest I am

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By the way the Orthodox do believe in Theosis or deification but we do not believe we are God or will become equal to God.  We are finite beings.  Pans we in humility prostrate ourselves before our Lord Jesus Christ and beg his forgiveness for our sins.  That's our way.  If you have a different way I am prepared to respect that.  But I don't go to Gnostic forums or Buddhist forums or Hindu forums or Muslim forums and attack their faith.  Even my dialogues with Protestants as a former Protestant have been disappointing if not apiritually harmful.  So I think you're really wasting your time here.

I am not God, nor will I ever presume to equate myself to Him.  I bow before His glory in terror.  And I am happy doing this, because I am a sinner and am unworthy.

You may be but some are not.

You might wonder why God creates only sinners if he wanted to have non-sinners around and why he would condemn you when you cannot help but to sin to survive.

No free will argument please.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.

Regards
DL

Offline wgw

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With all due respect, you have no right to tell us what arguments we can or cannot use in disputing your polemics.  The Orthodox Church believes in free will.  We also do not believe in Asherah.

But at least with your repeated mentioning of Asherah you give us a clue as to your religious identity.  Now I have to look up to see if any Gnostics believed in Asherah.  But I know of no Gnostics save for the Manichees who in their dualism denied the omnipotence of God.  The Valentinians regarded Bythus as omnipotent and existing of its own accord, and the other deities of their pantheon were emanations from this androgynous proto-deity.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline wgw

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So I can find no ancient Gnostic sect venerating Asherah by that name, only other goddesses who might be Asherah or Ishtar.  Just some Kabbalistic speculation that would probably make the Vilna Gaon most unhappy.  So this suggests GIA is in fact a member of some new age Gnostic movement, perhaps a religion of one.  And that's a problem as far as dialogue is concerned.  GIa/DL, can you link is to a website on which you or your group explain their beliefs?

At any rate Ishtar/Asherah was much reviled by Israel because of the temple prostitution with which she was worshipped.  So there's some misogyny for you.

I fear this dialogue may be fruitless because I don't believe we have any theological common ground whatsoever.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline homedad76

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I never expect to do well when I go to an idol worshiper site who have ignored Jesus' teaching of seeking God.

And yet you keep trying.
"However hard I try, I find it impossible to construct anything greater than these three words, 'Love one another' —only to the end, and without exceptions: then all is justified and life is illumined, whereas otherwise it is an abomination and a burden."

—Mother Maria of Paris

Offline biro

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He also got kicked off of Democratic Underground pretty darn quickly.

https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist


Warning: stories have mature content.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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He also got kicked off of Democratic Underground pretty darn quickly.
He's been muted until further notice, so there's no longer any use in engaging him. He cannot reply.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline biro

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Okay, then.
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist


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Offline TheTrisagion

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I missed the quarterly visit from GIA? Bummer...

*waves at the muted snake spinning in circles*
God bless!

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If I had children, I would want them to have the very best I could give them, even if it made me suffer. I know God wants that for us, being our father, but His love for us is incomparable to our love for our children-it is much greater.
To God Be the Glory!