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Author Topic: Jesus and Original sin  (Read 1713 times) Average Rating: 0
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OrthodoxRobert
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« on: June 15, 2005, 01:14:10 AM »

Hello all,

My name is Robert and I was invited to this board by Orthodox Bagpiper.  While I am not a member of an Orthodox Church as of yet, I do consider myself Orthodox. I live in a mountain community and there is no Orthodox Church near, well, one Greek Orthodox Church which seems more interested in being Greek than Orthodox. Its is about an hour away and when you have to ride down and windy canyon road to worship with people who have seemed to have never read Hebrews 13:2, well, lets just say it makes it hard.

My question is this:

Since the Orthodox reject the western concept of Original Sin, that we are not guilty for what Adam did, but rather we are born into a state of spiritual weakness, would it be heresy to say that Jesus being born fully man also was born with a lack of better word a fallen nature? Jesus was tempted and fought against sin, so I guess how can you tempt one who cannot be tempted? Huh

In my opinion, and it is just that, that it would seem to make Jesus more human then way he is portrayed in the West. Could Jesus have sinned? We know from scripture that he desired that the cup be passed from Him, yet He submitted to the will of the Father.

This is just a question I have had for a while and would be very interested for some dialogue on this issue. For the record I believe Jesus was sinless.

Robert
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eleni
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« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2005, 01:46:33 AM »

hi OrthodoxRobert,

I can point you to a few sites that will explain it better than I ....

http://uk.geocities.com/guildfordian2002/History/MysteryChristianPowerP1.htm

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/frjr_sin.aspx

Hope that helps a bit.....

IX
helen....
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A Prudent man foresees evil and hides himself;
The simple pass on and are punished.
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eleni
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« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2005, 01:57:10 AM »

Hi again..

Well reading what you wroteQuote//Could Jesus have sinned? We know from scripture that he desired that the cup be passed from Him, yet He submitted to the will of the Father
......to my understanding...Christ being God (LOGOS<WORD> took flesh and became man)
Did have weaknesses as man ,that is US and being in this world,He did take on Human Flesh and therefore could be tempted....but the difference would be that He did the WILL OF THE FATHER....He had the choice of FREE WILL as we do......we have the choice to sin or not to sin.....
He became Man to show us the WAY .....to do as He did......Submit to the Father who is God,The Father ,The Son and the Holy Spirit.

Hope that makes sense!
Hope I said that ok.
Please correct me If I may have otherwise stated wrongly..
IX
helen
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A Prudent man foresees evil and hides himself;
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eleni
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« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2005, 02:05:21 AM »

Hi yet again.....I re read my answer....It's better that you go the web sites that I put up......
I myself got mixed up reading my own answer.....
sorry!

God understood that the only way for man to come back to the original state of Adam as was in the Beginning, was to become Man and take the worlds SIN into Himself....eg the curse of man.

He came to destry the DEATH that reulted from the commanment that Adam and Eve could not keep.....Tree of Knowledge.
Therefore The tree of Knowledge becomes The CROSS of Christ......through the CROSS the SIN of Adam is DESTROYED....
The Resurrection of Christ means that WE too will be RESURRECTED and judged accordingly.....and live FOREVER...
Hope that sounds a little better.
IX
helen
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A Prudent man foresees evil and hides himself;
The simple pass on and are punished.
-Proverbs27:12-
prodromos
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« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2005, 02:25:48 AM »

Saint Gregory Nazianzen - "That which is not assumed is not healed".

If Christ did not assume our fallen human nature, if He became something "other" than us in His incarnation, then the only flesh taken to the grave and raised back to life was His own (and perhaps that of His mother, if you believe the RC dogma of the Immaculate Conception). The rest of humanity would have no hope in the resurrection, since death for us would not have been defeated.

Hebrews 2:17-18
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

John
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jmbejdl
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« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2005, 04:53:25 AM »

Robert,

This aspect of the Incarnation (Christ taking on fallen human nature) is quite well discussed, in my opinion, in Bishop Kallistos' book 'The Orthodox Way', which I read as part of my catechumenate. I would recommend reading that book to you also.

James
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OrthodoxRobert
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« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2005, 05:53:01 AM »

It just seems to me that if Jesus didn't have a fallen nature then he wasn't truly man.  Now, in the West, because of the fallen = sinful belief that to say Jesus had a fallen nature as we do, then that makes him sinful just as we are....that is if the Western view of Original Sin is correct (Which I do not believe it is).

Robert
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jmbejdl
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« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2005, 06:21:27 AM »

It just seems to me that if Jesus didn't have a fallen nature then he wasn't truly man.ÂÂ  Now, in the West, because of the fallen = sinful belief that to say Jesus had a fallen nature as we do, then that makes him sinful just as we are....that is if the Western view of Original Sin is correct (Which I do not believe it is).

Robert
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I agree with you completely and it's a major reason for my finding Augustinian-style Original Sin incomprehensible. The Fall did not make us sinful but it did make us susceptible to sin, so Christ assuming fallen nature does not mean that He sinned but only that He could have been tempted to sin (and the devil certainly attempted to tempt Him!). Conversely if Christ did not assume fallen nature then He was not really like us and I fail to see how the Incarnation could have divinised our nature, which would mean that the incarnation could not have effected our salvation. The eastern position, then, is completely coherent whereas the common western one is a complete mess of contradictory philosophisations.

James
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We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
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« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2005, 11:12:15 AM »

I forget where I read this explanation, but I'll share it, because I once had the same question about Christ's human nature:  Could Jesus have sinned?  In short, no.  The answer lies in the fact that He was always, beyond doubt, in full and perfect communion and unity with His Father.  Anyone who maintains that level of communion with the Father cannot sin.  I'd dare say that we've had saints that come very close to perfect communion with God, but even they will fall short of the level of union Christ has with His Father, because they were of one essence.  The issue isn't whether or not Christ had a fallen nature:  He was born, fully human into a fallen world, just as we all are.  But because He was perfectly united at all times with the Father, sin could never touch Him.  That's my 2 cents.

In Christ,

Michael
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"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us..."
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