Author Topic: Is Judas in Hell......?  (Read 3564 times)

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Offline Charles Martel

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Is Judas in Hell......?
« on: March 15, 2015, 07:51:49 PM »
Just read an interesting article on the biggest rat of all time.

I personally don't believe we can say who or if anyone is in "hell".

I personally believe that Judas Iscariot is a most tragic figure in biblical lore.

Regardless of what I "personally" believe ,it doesn't look good for the apostles treasurer according to scripture
.

So what do the armchair theologians on OC.net think?

Is Judas in hell?

CNN)—I heard a news clip promoting my recent speaking engagement at a church, and they mentioned that I deal with some of "the greatest sinners of all time."

I thought to myself: Do I? Would people who are caught up in porn and sexual sin addictions consider themselves some of the greatest sinners of all time? Probably not.

Without a doubt, Judas, the biblical disciple of Jesus, is considered the greatest sinner of all time because of what he did to Jesus.

Here is the passage from Luke 22:21-22.

Do you realize that the hand of the one who is betraying me is at this moment on this table? It's true that the Son of Man is going down a path already marked out.

No surprises there. But for the one who turns him in - who turns traitor to the Son of Man - this is doomsday.

Let me tell you a little bit about what the Bible says about Judas:



http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/19/living/judas-hell-jesus/
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Is Judas in Hell......?
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2015, 08:14:45 PM »
Just read an interesting article on the biggest rat of all time.

I personally don't believe we can say who or if anyone is in "hell".

I personally believe that Judas Iscariot is a most tragic figure in biblical lore.

Regardless of what I "personally" believe ,it doesn't look good for the apostles treasurer according to scripture
.

So what do the armchair theologians on OC.net think?

Is Judas in hell?

CNN)—I heard a news clip promoting my recent speaking engagement at a church, and they mentioned that I deal with some of "the greatest sinners of all time."

I thought to myself: Do I? Would people who are caught up in porn and sexual sin addictions consider themselves some of the greatest sinners of all time? Probably not.

Without a doubt, Judas, the biblical disciple of Jesus, is considered the greatest sinner of all time because of what he did to Jesus.

Here is the passage from Luke 22:21-22.

Do you realize that the hand of the one who is betraying me is at this moment on this table? It's true that the Son of Man is going down a path already marked out.

No surprises there. But for the one who turns him in - who turns traitor to the Son of Man - this is doomsday.

Let me tell you a little bit about what the Bible says about Judas:



http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/19/living/judas-hell-jesus/

Maybe it all comes down to the Question: Did Christ have to die on the cross to redeem us?  If not Judas , who?  OT Scripture does give us a bit of info on Christ's death.  So, it would appear to me that a Judas like person would have to be involved somewhere.

Offline WPM

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Re: Is Judas in Hell......?
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2015, 08:41:42 PM »
no way to tell who is in Hell

May have been a scapegoat

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Is Judas in Hell......?
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2015, 10:30:42 PM »
While it is not exactly on the same topic, I think the words of St. John Chrysostom in the work That We Should not Anathematize the Living or the Dead are relevant. An anathema is of course an intended condemnation, while you are (I think) asking about a simple opinion, though not necessarily agreement or strong inclinations with regard to it. Still, both having to do with someone’s condemnation, there is a good bit of overlap, and the reasons given for avoiding pronouncing anathemas are (IMO) just as applicable to questions like you asked. The short summary of the words of St. John is: don’t do it. For a slightly longer sumary I’ll post this...

Quote
Yet on the other hand St. Chrysostom was utterly against this practice [of anathemas]. For he has a whole homily upon this point, that men ought not to anathematize either the living or the dead; they may anathematize their opinions or actions, but not their persons. Where, as Grotius rightly observes, he takes Anathema in the strictest sense, for praying to God for the destruction of the sinner. Against this he argues from these several topics:

1. Because Christ died for all men, for his enemies, for tyrants, for magicians, for those that hated and crucified him.

2. Because the Church in imitation of Christ daily prays for all men.

3. Because the Christian religion rather obliges us to lay down our own lives for our neighbours, than take away theirs.

4. It is usurping- upon the prerogative of Christ For what is such an Anathema but saying, let him be given to the devil, let him have no place of salvation, let him be separated from Christ? Who gave thee this authority and power? Why dost thou assume the dignity of the Son of God, who shall sit in judgment, and set the sheep on his right hand, and the goats on his left ?

5. The Apostles had no such practice in excommunication. They cast heretics out of the Church in such manner, as one would pluck out a right eye, or cut off a limb, with indications of compassion and sorrow. They carefully rebuked and expelled their heresies, but did not thus anathematize their persons.

6. It is an absurd practice, whether it be used toward the living, or the dead. If toward the living thou art cruel in so cutting  off one, who is still in a capacity of turning, and changing his life from evil to good; if toward the dead thou art more cruel, because now to his own master he stands or falls, and is not under any human power.

From all this he concludes, "That we ought only to anathematize the impious and heretical opinions of men, but to spare their persons, and pray for their salvation.” 

-- Rev. Joseph Bingham, The Antiquities of the Christian Church and Other Works (Volume 6), pp. 113-114 (Download or read online here.)

So as far as application to the question in the OP: we ought to remember that God wants all to be saved, and that we pray for this, and that this should be our hope and intention. Thus we should be doing the exact opposite of thinking that such-and-such might be in hell, or speculating on such things. We do not have the ability to know the answer anyway, nor would it serve any useful purpose if we did.

Anyway, those are my thoughts, though I tend toward some kind of quasi-semi-maybe-kinda-universalism, so...

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is Judas in Hell......?
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2015, 10:52:14 PM »
Thanks, Justin. I think St. John is right about the Apostles, as I can think of several examples where it is explained that the rejection of a person by the Church has as its end the reproof and reconciliation of that person. Even St. Paul's shocking language, where he refers to excommunicants as "turned over to Satan for destruction of the flesh," has this clarification appended to it in the case of I Cor 5:5: "that the spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord Jesus." However, I do think of St. John the Theologian's advice that there are some for whom we ought not to pray, as some error (sin) is fatal (mortal); yet he does not explicitly connect this with excommunication or anathema.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2015, 10:52:53 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Is Judas in Hell......?
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2015, 11:19:04 PM »
Speaking of 'shocking' language and a fearful status (so to speak), and a connection with the passage of St. John, fwiw at least some Fathers did seem to think that some such passages were exaggerated to make a point.

(I love my pretentious "mini-study" thing in that link, lol)
« Last Edit: March 15, 2015, 11:19:40 PM by Justin Kissel »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is Judas in Hell......?
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2015, 11:26:23 PM »
Knew I could count on you to come up with some Fathers. Well, I find the exegesis you quote there quite interesting if not totally convincing.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Is Judas in Hell......?
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2015, 12:18:38 AM »
I probably haven't really chewed that one over since 2008ish when I posted on that other thread. I think I'll start a thread sometime this week on that...

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Is Judas in Hell......?
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2015, 05:23:51 AM »
Even apart from the question of what an anathema means, in the case of Judas we have to ask what "that he might go to his own place," means.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Is Judas in Hell......?
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2015, 07:13:04 AM »
If there is no hope for Judas, then there is no hope for me, for I betray my Lord every day.


Selam
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Offline biro

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Re: Is Judas in Hell......?
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2015, 07:22:16 AM »
If there is no hope for Judas, then there is no hope for me, for I betray my Lord every day.


Selam

Same here.  :'(
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Is Judas in Hell......?
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2015, 07:29:31 AM »
Get some perspective.

Offline Skydive

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Re: Is Judas in Hell......?
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2015, 07:45:57 AM »
Because... Predestination.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Is Judas in Hell......?
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2015, 05:06:03 PM »
If there is no hope for Judas, then there is no hope for me, for I betray my Lord every day.


Selam

There was certainly hope for Judas during his life, but it may be possible that his suicide indicates the earthly sorrow that leads to death. Only God knows, though.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline homedad76

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Re: Is Judas in Hell......?
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2015, 05:18:56 PM »
It is important to keep in mind that Judas' betrayal of Christ was completely voluntary and not done to further salvation.  If he had done it because he believed in the necessity of the cross and was merely taking his place that would be different.  But this is not what happened.  He betrayed Christ out of anger and we can't even be sure that he fully understood what the results of his betrayal would be.  His fiat was not the same as the Theotokos... it was quite the opposite.
"However hard I try, I find it impossible to construct anything greater than these three words, 'Love one another' —only to the end, and without exceptions: then all is justified and life is illumined, whereas otherwise it is an abomination and a burden."

—Mother Maria of Paris

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Is Judas in Hell......?
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2015, 12:16:47 AM »
The two senses of "Hell" in Orthodoxy come to mind. There is "Hades", where your soul is sent if you are not judged favorably after death. Then there's "Gehenna", where your soul and body are sent if you are not judged favorably at the Last Judgment. My understanding is that we can say those who die outside the Church, whether through lack of baptism or confessing the true faith, or dying without repentance, are in Hades, but we cannot say what their state will be after the Last Judgment (though you might be able to talk of probabilities). Being sent to Hades is not the final sentence: souls may be delivered from there and sent to Paradise. That's part of why we pray for the dead. Being sent to Gehenna, on the other hand, is an eternal sentence.

So I wouldn't have a problem saying Judas is in Hades, but I'd be afraid to say I know for certain he will be sent to Gehenna.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2015, 12:17:07 AM by Jonathan Gress »

Offline Gunnarr

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Re: Is Judas in Hell......?
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2015, 01:54:41 AM »
Judas is in the jaws of the Devil ! being gnawed on!

if you believe Dante...
I am a demonic servant! Beware!

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Is Judas in Hell......?
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2015, 09:10:36 PM »
It is important to keep in mind that Judas' betrayal of Christ was completely voluntary and not done to further salvation.  If he had done it because he believed in the necessity of the cross and was merely taking his place that would be different.  But this is not what happened.  He betrayed Christ out of anger and we can't even be sure that he fully understood what the results of his betrayal would be.  His fiat was not the same as the Theotokos... it was quite the opposite.
But was Judas remorseful for his betrayal of his master?

It appears he possibly was as he tries to return the  blood money back to the Pharisees.

Then he apparently kills himself ( because he was in emotional pain?) or falls to an accidental death afterward.

I believe there is two different versions of the fate of Judas.

Which one is correct?
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Is Judas in Hell......?
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2015, 09:16:50 PM »
The two senses of "Hell" in Orthodoxy come to mind. There is "Hades", where your soul is sent if you are not judged favorably after death. Then there's "Gehenna", where your soul and body are sent if you are not judged favorably at the Last Judgment. My understanding is that we can say those who die outside the Church, whether through lack of baptism or confessing the true faith, or dying without repentance, are in Hades, but we cannot say what their state will be after the Last Judgment (though you might be able to talk of probabilities). Being sent to Hades is not the final sentence: souls may be delivered from there and sent to Paradise. That's part of why we pray for the dead. Being sent to Gehenna, on the other hand, is an eternal sentence.

So I wouldn't have a problem saying Judas is in Hades, but I'd be afraid to say I know for certain he will be sent to Gehenna.
I believe "Hell" is a Germanic word/concept for the afterlife.

Hades was a place  (the underworld?) from Greek mythology.


Ghehenna was a place they burned dead bodies outside the cities during Jesus's time.

I'm not sure how these concepts/words were assimiliated into the gospels.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Is Judas in Hell......?
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2015, 09:47:53 PM »
It is important to keep in mind that Judas' betrayal of Christ was completely voluntary and not done to further salvation.  If he had done it because he believed in the necessity of the cross and was merely taking his place that would be different.  But this is not what happened.  He betrayed Christ out of anger and we can't even be sure that he fully understood what the results of his betrayal would be.  His fiat was not the same as the Theotokos... it was quite the opposite.


But was Judas remorseful for his betrayal of his master?

It appears he possibly was as he tries to return the  blood money back to the Pharisees.

Quote
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.- 2Corinthians 7:10

Then he apparently kills himself ( because he was in emotional pain?) or falls to an accidental death afterward.

I believe there is two different versions of the fate of Judas.

Which one is correct?

Quote
Now this man acquired a field with the price of his wickedness, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his intestines gushed out. 19And it became known to all who were living in Jerusalem; so that in their own language that field was called Hakeldama, that is, Field of Blood.- Acts 1:18-19

Why would the field become a cursed place if he just died accidentally? Nothing about this is inconsistent with suicide. And in the Acts version he doesn't even try to give the money back.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2015, 09:48:59 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is Judas in Hell......?
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2015, 09:51:39 PM »
You're right in a basic way, altho you're forgetting Tartaros. It's also worth noting that traditional translations into English rendered "hell" regardless of the underlying Greek or Hebrew word. However, for theological purposes distinctions should be made, and were made by the Fathers -- because Christ and the Apostles clearly imply an abode for sinners before and after Judgment.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Is Judas in Hell......?
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2015, 10:04:15 PM »
In Catholic teaching, dying in mortal sin can lead to eternal perdition. The purpose of the Last Judgment for those already in Hell is merely to make their punishment "more perfect", since they will then suffer bodily as well as spiritually.

Offline homedad76

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Re: Is Judas in Hell......?
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2015, 10:05:58 PM »
It is important to keep in mind that Judas' betrayal of Christ was completely voluntary and not done to further salvation.  If he had done it because he believed in the necessity of the cross and was merely taking his place that would be different.  But this is not what happened.  He betrayed Christ out of anger and we can't even be sure that he fully understood what the results of his betrayal would be.  His fiat was not the same as the Theotokos... it was quite the opposite.
But was Judas remorseful for his betrayal of his master?

It appears he possibly was as he tries to return the  blood money back to the Pharisees.

Then he apparently kills himself ( because he was in emotional pain?) or falls to an accidental death afterward.

I believe there is two different versions of the fate of Judas.

Which one is correct?

We don't know which one is correct though it is possible the two writers had heard two different stories.  This would indicate the apostles didn't personally find out what happened (though they were a little preoccupied at that time with other things).  We know that Jesus said  "It would have been better for that man if he had not been born." (Mark 14:21) which the Latin church has used to indicate Judas was damned.  However it is also possible Christ was speaking of an internal torment and fear that Judas went through upon realizing the gravity of what he had done.
"However hard I try, I find it impossible to construct anything greater than these three words, 'Love one another' —only to the end, and without exceptions: then all is justified and life is illumined, whereas otherwise it is an abomination and a burden."

—Mother Maria of Paris

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Is Judas in Hell......?
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2015, 10:11:31 PM »
There aren't "two different stories" in the sense that they conflict materially, and we know that the Apostles did know Judas's fate as St. Peter recounts part of it in a speech to the disciples before the ordination of St. Apostle Matthias.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Is Judas in Hell......?
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2015, 10:19:18 PM »
It is important to keep in mind that Judas' betrayal of Christ was completely voluntary and not done to further salvation.  If he had done it because he believed in the necessity of the cross and was merely taking his place that would be different.  But this is not what happened.  He betrayed Christ out of anger and we can't even be sure that he fully understood what the results of his betrayal would be.  His fiat was not the same as the Theotokos... it was quite the opposite.
But was Judas remorseful for his betrayal of his master?

It appears he possibly was as he tries to return the  blood money back to the Pharisees.

Then he apparently kills himself ( because he was in emotional pain?) or falls to an accidental death afterward.

I believe there is two different versions of the fate of Judas.

Which one is correct?
However it is also possible Christ was speaking of an internal torment and fear that Judas went through upon realizing the gravity of what he had done.

That seems like a bit of a stretch.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Is Judas in Hell......?
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2015, 10:26:27 PM »
There aren't "two different stories" in the sense that they conflict materially, and we know that the Apostles did know Judas's fate as St. Peter recounts part of it in a speech to the disciples before the ordination of St. Apostle Matthias.

All he says is
Quote
from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.

Even if that means they knew Judas was dead as opposed to just apostate, it doesn't indicate they knew how he died.

And what do you mean they don't conflict? They conflict on whether the priests bought the field or Judas did.

Quote
Then when Judas, his betrayer, saw that Jesus[a] was condemned, he changed his mind and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders, saying, “I have sinned by betraying innocent blood.” They said, “What is that to us? See to it yourself.” And throwing down the pieces of silver into the temple, he departed, and he went and hanged himself. But the chief priests, taking the pieces of silver, said, “It is not lawful to put them into the treasury, since it is blood money.” So they took counsel and bought with them the potter's field as a burial place for strangers. Therefore that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day.- Matthew 27:3-8, emphasis mine.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Is Judas in Hell......?
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2015, 10:39:46 PM »
It is important to keep in mind that Judas' betrayal of Christ was completely voluntary and not done to further salvation.  If he had done it because he believed in the necessity of the cross and was merely taking his place that would be different.  But this is not what happened.  He betrayed Christ out of anger and we can't even be sure that he fully understood what the results of his betrayal would be.  His fiat was not the same as the Theotokos... it was quite the opposite.
But was Judas remorseful for his betrayal of his master?

It appears he possibly was as he tries to return the  blood money back to the Pharisees.

Then he apparently kills himself ( because he was in emotional pain?) or falls to an accidental death afterward.

I believe there is two different versions of the fate of Judas.

Which one is correct?

We don't know which one is correct though it is possible the two writers had heard two different stories.  This would indicate the apostles didn't personally find out what happened (though they were a little preoccupied at that time with other things).  We know that Jesus said  "It would have been better for that man if he had not been born." (Mark 14:21) which the Latin church has used to indicate Judas was damned.  However it is also possible Christ was speaking of an internal torment and fear that Judas went through upon realizing the gravity of what he had done.

Didn't Job also say something to that effect ("I curse the day I was born", etc.?)
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Offline andrewlya

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Re: Is Judas in Hell......?
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2015, 01:07:40 PM »
Judah did not believe Jesus, did not accept Him as the Messiah otherwise he would not have betrayed Him. And what happens to those who don't accept Jesus?

Jesus said 9n Matthew 26:24 "The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born".
« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 01:22:05 PM by andrewlya »
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Offline Rhinosaur

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Re: Is Judas in Hell......?
« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2015, 01:32:37 PM »
When Jesus says "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do," how many people is he referring to?

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Re: Is Judas in Hell......?
« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2015, 02:14:00 PM »
When Jesus says "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do," how many people is he referring to?
How can people but saved if they don't accept "the only way to God"?
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Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Is Judas in Hell......?
« Reply #30 on: March 30, 2015, 02:38:33 PM »
When Jesus says "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do," how many people is he referring to?
How can people but saved if they don't accept "the only way to God"?

If there is only one road to Paris, you will get to Paris if you stay on the road only. Maybe you are on it for all the wrong reasons, maybe you don't know what that road is, maybe you don't know what roads are, maybe you're drunk. But if you stay in the road to Paris you will get to Paris. Likewise, it doesn't matter that you confess that only one road lead to Paris, if you don't stay on the road, you'll be lost, even if you are in a road with asphalt of similar or better quality.

Of course, knowing all that and being willing to walk that road makes things a lot easier.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 02:40:06 PM by Fabio Leite »
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Re: Is Judas in Hell......?
« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2015, 05:19:29 PM »
When Jesus says "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do," how many people is he referring to?
How can people but saved if they don't accept "the only way to God"?

If there is only one road to Paris, you will get to Paris if you stay on the road only. Maybe you are on it for all the wrong reasons, maybe you don't know what that road is, maybe you don't know what roads are, maybe you're drunk. But if you stay in the road to Paris you will get to Paris. Likewise, it doesn't matter that you confess that only one road lead to Paris, if you don't stay on the road, you'll be lost, even if you are in a road with asphalt of similar or better quality.

Of course, knowing all that and being willing to walk that road makes things a lot easier.

This is what you preach, Jesus preached this :"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." You have to accept Yeshua and follow what He says. If one denies Him, he falls out of God's grace untill he repents and comes back to God to believe and follow Him.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 05:19:51 PM by andrewlya »
I believe in One God- the Heavenly Father Yahweh-John 17:3,1 Corinthians 8:6
I believe in the Son of the Living God- Yahshua our Messiah-Matthew 16:16