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Offline andrewlya

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Confused about this verse.
« on: March 06, 2015, 07:35:32 PM »
Hi all,
I have a questions about "2 Samuel 24". The verse 24 says:" Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.” 10 David was conscience-stricken after he had counted the fighting men, and he said to the Lord, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done. Now, Lord, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing.”

In this chapter it appears that David sinned because he had numbered the people of Israel.

1. Why was the anger of the Lord burned against Israel?
2. Why how could David have sinned if the Lord asked him to number the people of Israel?

3. Why was God so angry at David for taking the census if God asked David to do it?
4.Why did God punish the Israelite people when it was David who ordered the census?


Thank you.

God bless.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2015, 10:55:26 PM »
Military census was forbidden by Moses' Law, and God had emphasized the principle again in cases such as Gideon and David himself. Outside of ancient empires, which were clearly evil in the Hebrew scriptural perspective, the practice of paying or inducing large armies to fight was unknown. People learning the use of weapons, yes; coordinating to defend their homelands, sure: but large regimented forces of professionals or slaves numbered strategically to overcome all enemies was unnatural innovation. At any rate, Israel herself was strictly forbidden from "leaning on the arm of flesh" rather than of God in this way.

"How could David have sinned if the Lord asked him to number Israel?" Because the Jehovah had asked him to sin.

"Why was God so angry at David ..." God was angry at Israel.

"Why did God punish Israel when David ordered the census?" God had intended to punish Israel in the first place, being angry at them.

The important part of the story you've left out, in my opinion, which is that, altho Jehovah was wroth with Israel and directed David to lead them in blasphemous military pride and the breaking of Moses' Law so he might punish them, David stopped the plague by an act of sincere and empathetic sacrifice, taking all Israel into his heart as he approached the Lord.
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Offline Skydive

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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2015, 06:13:20 PM »
if this is the only verse you are confused about you have nothing to worry about

Offline andrewlya

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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2015, 09:33:08 AM »
Military census was forbidden by Moses' Law, and God had emphasized the principle again in cases such as Gideon and David himself. Outside of ancient empires, which were clearly evil in the Hebrew scriptural perspective, the practice of paying or inducing large armies to fight was unknown. People learning the use of weapons, yes; coordinating to defend their homelands, sure: but large regimented forces of professionals or slaves numbered strategically to overcome all enemies was unnatural innovation. At any rate, Israel herself was strictly forbidden from "leaning on the arm of flesh" rather than of God in this way.

"How could David have sinned if the Lord asked him to number Israel?" Because the Jehovah had asked him to sin.


Thank you, Porter.

A good answer, it is just a bit seems a bit strange punishing David and Israel for a sin that Jehovah Himself had asked to commit.. David could not not listen to what God was commanding him to do, if God tells you something you do it..
« Last Edit: March 08, 2015, 09:46:30 AM by andrewlya »
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2015, 10:49:51 AM »
According to my OSB, it was Satan that had David do a census.  The footnote indicates God uses Satan, but it was not God.

Nor could I find the phrase "leaning on the arm of flesh".
Porter, you have a wealth to offer, though your writing style escapes me at times, I must ask you the source of that phrase.
What bothered me is claiming God ordered David to sin. It is not His Nature to do so, so really my issue is ontological.

1 Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel. 2 So David said to Joab and to the leaders of the people, “Go, number Israel from Beersheba to Dan, and bring the number of them to me that I may know it.”
(1 Chronicles 21:1-2 Orthodox Study Bible)
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2015, 01:10:42 PM »
Clearly our two narrators had different beliefs what had happened.

As for "arm of flesh," it's a concept found in places such as "With him is the arm of flesh, but with us is the Lord our God" (II Chr 13:8) and "Cursed be the man that trusteth in man and maketh flesh his arm" (Jer 17:5).
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Offline andrewlya

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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2015, 01:45:33 PM »
According to my OSB, it was Satan that had David do a census.  The footnote indicates God uses Satan, but it was not God.

Nor could I find the phrase "leaning on the arm of flesh".
Porter, you have a wealth to offer, though your writing style escapes me at times, I must ask you the source of that phrase.
What bothered me is claiming God ordered David to sin. It is not His Nature to do so, so really my issue is ontological.

1 Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel. 2 So David said to Joab and to the leaders of the people, “Go, number Israel from Beersheba to Dan, and bring the number of them to me that I may know it.”
(1 Chronicles 21:1-2 Orthodox Study Bible)

I have heard this explanation,however, why in the verse of 2 Samuel (Kingdom) 24 it says that God had commanded to“Go and take a census of Israel and Judah”,rather Satan?
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Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2015, 04:23:17 PM »
Interestingly, Brenton's English translation of the Septuagint says this:

"[24:1] And the Lord caused his anger to burn forth again in Israel, and Satan stirred up David against them, saying, Go, number Israel and Juda."--2Samuel
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2015, 06:22:49 PM »
Andrewlya, don't know why The Book has that. Try to find out and hope there's no slapping (though I deserve it).

Porter, thanks for the "arm of flesh" reference and I found another that I use when "reasoning"  with others in the 'post modern' world of rationale and their stance on 'absolutes'. Must have gotten it from the below and forgot about the address of Isaiah 9:19.

19 But one shall turn aside to the right hand, for he shall be hungry; and he shall eat on the left hand and not be satisfied. Every man shall eat the flesh of his own arm.
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Offline andrewlya

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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2015, 06:28:15 PM »
Interestingly, Brenton's English translation of the Septuagint says this:

"[24:1] And the Lord caused his anger to burn forth again in Israel, and Satan stirred up David against them, saying, Go, number Israel and Juda."--2Samuel
Yes, this would make more sense to be honest! But then again, David should not have listened to him in that case..why would David follow what satan commanded.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2015, 06:29:08 PM by andrewlya »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2015, 08:28:50 PM »
Interestingly, Brenton's English translation of the Septuagint says this:

"[24:1] And the Lord caused his anger to burn forth again in Israel, and Satan stirred up David against them, saying, Go, number Israel and Juda."--2Samuel
Yes, this would make more sense to be honest! But then again, David should not have listened to him in that case..why would David follow what satan commanded.

Why does anyone listen to bad advice that arises in his mind (for whatever source)? Joab tried to stop him. The Holy Prophet Nathan came and upbraided him. In the end, King David took upon himself responsibility for what Jehovah or Satan incited him to. I think the narrators had their reasons for assigning David's decision to God's wrath (via or not Satan) against Israel, and we'll have to let it go at that.
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Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2015, 03:56:22 AM »
I honestly don't think Brenton's reading is the true reading though, since most editions seem to have that it was YHWH. Also I remember reading in the Words of Gad Seer that God had Satan tell David to do it. I plainly said that.

We also have in Ezekiel God telling Gog that he will will think an evil thought to go and make war against Israel when the saints are dwelling in safety in the Land. It says he will put hooks in his Jaws and make him to go there to do this. But in Revelation, quite apparently the same occurrence, it says instead that God will release Satan from being bound in the Abyss and that Satan will go and deceive Gog to do this evil thing.
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2015, 06:00:55 AM »
I think the KJV and KJ3 translations have it (2Samuel 24:1) rendered better:

"And again the anger of Jehovah burned against Israel, and moved David against them, to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." (KJ3)

"And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." (KJV)

These translations sound like it was David who said it not YHWH who moved him to say it through Satan.

It's hard for me to accept that although YHWH would use Satan to tempt David, that he would actually say, "Do it." to David. Although maybe YHWH wasn't actually saying it directly to David, if these translations are wrong. Maybe he was just saying, because he knew David had this wicked desire in his heart and was bent on doing it, which he knew he would, "God ahead and do it. Go and number Israel and Judah if that is what you really want." I can't accept that God would actually command David to do something evil and then after he did it punish him for it. That sounds wrong/immoral to me. Besides, he told Abraham to sacrifice his son and he was going to do it, and almost did, if it wasn't for YHWH stopping him, and Abraham was blessed for his faith.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2015, 06:05:42 AM by TheLoveOfTheTruth »
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Offline andrewlya

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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2015, 12:43:58 PM »
Interestingly, Brenton's English translation of the Septuagint says this:

"[24:1] And the Lord caused his anger to burn forth again in Israel, and Satan stirred up David against them, saying, Go, number Israel and Juda."--2Samuel
Yes, this would make more sense to be honest! But then again, David should not have listened to him in that case..why would David follow what satan commanded.

Why does anyone listen to bad advice that arises in his mind (for whatever source)? Joab tried to stop him. The Holy Prophet Nathan came and upbraided him. In the end, King David took upon himself responsibility for what Jehovah or Satan incited him to. I think the narrators had their reasons for assigning David's decision to God's wrath (via or not Satan) against Israel, and we'll have to let it go at that.
It goes on to show nobody that God has sent down to Earth has been sinless, but Jesus alone.
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2015, 12:47:23 PM »
I honestly don't think Brenton's reading is the true reading though, since most editions seem to have that it was YHWH. Also I remember reading in the Words of Gad Seer that God had Satan tell David to do it. I plainly said that.

We also have in Ezekiel God telling Gog that he will will think an evil thought to go and make war against Israel when the saints are dwelling in safety in the Land. It says he will put hooks in his Jaws and make him to go there to do this. But in Revelation, quite apparently the same occurrence, it says instead that God will release Satan from being bound in the Abyss and that Satan will go and deceive Gog to do this evil thing.
Why do you think there are these discrepancies in these verses? Is it due to translations or interpretations?
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2015, 12:51:19 PM »
I think the KJV and KJ3 translations have it (2Samuel 24:1) rendered better:

"And again the anger of Jehovah burned against Israel, and moved David against them, to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." (KJ3)

"And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." (KJV)

These translations sound like it was David who said it not YHWH who moved him to say it through Satan.

It's hard for me to accept that although YHWH would use Satan to tempt David, that he would actually say, "Do it." to David. Although maybe YHWH wasn't actually saying it directly to David, if these translations are wrong. Maybe he was just saying, because he knew David had this wicked desire in his heart and was bent on doing it, which he knew he would, "God ahead and do it. Go and number Israel and Judah if that is what you really want." I can't accept that God would actually command David to do something evil and then after he did it punish him for it. That sounds wrong/immoral to me. Besides, he told Abraham to sacrifice his son and he was going to do it, and almost did, if it wasn't for YHWH stopping him, and Abraham was blessed for his faith.

But it's the "moved" (KJV) that's in question.
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2015, 01:19:38 PM »
I think the KJV and KJ3 translations have it (2Samuel 24:1) rendered better:

"And again the anger of Jehovah burned against Israel, and moved David against them, to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." (KJ3)

"And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." (KJV)

These translations sound like it was David who said it not YHWH who moved him to say it through Satan.

It's hard for me to accept that although YHWH would use Satan to tempt David, that he would actually say, "Do it." to David. Although maybe YHWH wasn't actually saying it directly to David, if these translations are wrong. Maybe he was just saying, because he knew David had this wicked desire in his heart and was bent on doing it, which he knew he would, "God ahead and do it. Go and number Israel and Judah if that is what you really want." I can't accept that God would actually command David to do something evil and then after he did it punish him for it. That sounds wrong/immoral to me. Besides, he told Abraham to sacrifice his son and he was going to do it, and almost did, if it wasn't for YHWH stopping him, and Abraham was blessed for his faith.
Yes, these are exactly my thoughts. I don't believe that God Himself asked David to do something that was sinful so just to punish David for something that David was told to do by God. There must be something to do either with translation or interpretation ,otherwise it doesn't seem fair since if God asks you to do something it would be the right thing to do, not a wrong thing to do in the eyes of the God as God only requires righteous things from us.
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Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2015, 01:41:51 PM »
It goes on to show nobody that God has sent down to Earth has been sinless, but Jesus alone.

I'm hesitant to jump to this conclusion. But call me a Pelagian.

Yes, these are exactly my thoughts. I don't believe that God Himself asked David to do something that was sinful so just to punish David for something that David was told to do by God. There must be something to do either with translation or interpretation ,otherwise it doesn't seem fair since if God asks you to do something it would be the right thing to do, not a wrong thing to do in the eyes of the God as God only requires righteous things from us.

Why do you think there are these discrepancies in these verses? Is it due to translations or interpretations?

It's probably a little of both. Or it could be one or the other. But I think I've found satisfactory enough explanations to make sense of it, whatever of them are the correct explanation. It might be though that we cannot know the 100% precise reason unless we either find the answer in some lost Apocryphal book or get a direct revelation form God explaining it to us. These books actually point to other sources at times that have a fuller account of what is said. I lost my few chapters of Gad the Seer, but I remember reading about this in there, so if I find it again I'll post it here. But the only problem I see is with, as you said, God actually telling David to do something sinful and then David doing it and getting punished for it. But whatever the true reason is, it can't be that and I think I've come up with some satisfactory explanations, unless someone can rebut them. I'd sooner reject the whole thing as a corruption and go with Brenton's reading or none than accept that God told David that.
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2015, 02:16:43 PM »
1 Chronicles 21 states that it was Satan that incited the census. I would be inclined to belief it was probably some scribes error to attribute it to God because the passages are almost identical with the exception of that opening phrase thereby making it seem reasonable to assume that they both came from one source, but one has become corrupted throught the many years since it was originally written.
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2015, 02:25:01 PM »
It goes on to show nobody that God has sent down to Earth has been sinless, but Jesus alone.

I'm hesitant to jump to this conclusion. But call me a Pelagian.

Why, who else was sinless?
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2015, 02:27:16 PM »
1 Chronicles 21 states that it was Satan that incited the census. I would be inclined to belief it was probably some scribes error to attribute it to God because the passages are almost identical with the exception of that opening phrase thereby making it seem reasonable to assume that they both came from one source, but one has become corrupted throught the many years since it was originally written.

I don't see how you can read them both and consider the robust narrative account, full of lucid detail, in II Samuel to be a degraded copy of I Chronicles. I'd recommend pulling out the Book.
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2015, 02:29:52 PM »
It goes on to show nobody that God has sent down to Earth has been sinless, but Jesus alone.

I'm hesitant to jump to this conclusion. But call me a Pelagian.

Yes, these are exactly my thoughts. I don't believe that God Himself asked David to do something that was sinful so just to punish David for something that David was told to do by God. There must be something to do either with translation or interpretation ,otherwise it doesn't seem fair since if God asks you to do something it would be the right thing to do, not a wrong thing to do in the eyes of the God as God only requires righteous things from us.

Why do you think there are these discrepancies in these verses? Is it due to translations or interpretations?

It's probably a little of both. Or it could be one or the other. But I think I've found satisfactory enough explanations to make sense of it, whatever of them are the correct explanation. It might be though that we cannot know the 100% precise reason unless we either find the answer in some lost Apocryphal book or get a direct revelation form God explaining it to us. These books actually point to other sources at times that have a fuller account of what is said. I lost my few chapters of Gad the Seer, but I remember reading about this in there, so if I find it again I'll post it here. But the only problem I see is with, as you said, God actually telling David to do something sinful and then David doing it and getting punished for it. But whatever the true reason is, it can't be that and I think I've come up with some satisfactory explanations, unless someone can rebut them. I'd sooner reject the whole thing as a corruption and go with Brenton's reading or none than accept that God told David that.
I agree with you. It would not make sense for God to tell something like this to David just to get him to sin, God is against sins. He would not instigate it.
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2015, 02:31:41 PM »
1 Chronicles 21 states that it was Satan that incited the census. I would be inclined to belief it was probably some scribes error to attribute it to God because the passages are almost identical with the exception of that opening phrase thereby making it seem reasonable to assume that they both came from one source, but one has become corrupted throught the many years since it was originally written.
Yes, this is quite possible considering the O.T. was written thousands of years ago and copied over and over again..
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2015, 02:33:21 PM »
1 Chronicles 21 states that it was Satan that incited the census. I would be inclined to belief it was probably some scribes error to attribute it to God because the passages are almost identical with the exception of that opening phrase thereby making it seem reasonable to assume that they both came from one source, but one has become corrupted throught the many years since it was originally written.

I don't see how you can read them both and consider the robust narrative account, full of lucid detail, in II Samuel to be a degraded copy of I Chronicles. I'd recommend pulling out the Book.
I'm not saying it is degraded, but it is not that difficult to have a small portion of a text copied incorrectly and then passed down through the ages. It isn't like we believe in Scriptural inerrancy anyways. We don't throw out the Gospels just because there are minor discrepancies in them.
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2015, 03:03:44 PM »
You're missing my point. If anything's a quick copy, it would have to be the I Chr record.

Quote from: I Samuel 24
And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah." For the king said to Joab the captain of the host, which was with him, "Go now through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan even to Beersheba, and number ye the people, that I may know the number of the people."

And Joab said unto the king, "Now the Lord thy God add unto the people, how many soever they be, an hundredfold--and that the eyes of my lord the king may see it: but why doth my lord the king delight in this thing?" Notwithstanding the king's word prevailed against Joab and against the captains of the host. And Joab and the captains of the host went out from the presence of the king, to number the people of Israel.

And they passed over Jordan and pitched in Aroer, on the right side of the city that lieth in the midst of the river of Gad, and toward Jazer; then they came to Gilead and to the land of Tahtimhodshi; and they came to Danjaan and about to Zidon and came to the stronghold of Tyre and to all the cities of the Hivites and of the Canaanites; and they went out to the south of Judah, even to Beersheba.

So when they had gone through all the land, they came to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days. And Joab gave up the sum of the number of the people unto the king: and there were in Israel 800,000 valiant men that drew the sword, and the men of Judah were 500,000 men.

And David's heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the Lord, "I have sinned greatly in that I have done; and now, I beseech thee, O Lord, take away the iniquity of thy servant, for I have done very foolishly." -- For when David was up in the morning, the word of the Lord came unto the prophet Gad, David's seer, saying, "Go and say unto David, 'Thus saith the Lord, I offer thee three things: choose thee one of them, that I may do it unto thee.' " So Gad came to David, and told him and said unto him, "Shall seven years of famine come unto thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue thee? or that there be three days' pestilence in thy land? Now advise, and see what answer I shall return to Him that sent me." -- And David said unto Gad, "I am in a great strait. Let us fall now into the hand of the Lord, for his mercies are great, and let me not fall into the hand of man."

So the Lord sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning even to the time appointed, and there died of the people from Dan even to Beersheba 70,000 men.

And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord repented him of the evil and said to the angel that destroyed the people, "It is enough: stay now thine hand." And the angel of the Lord was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite.

And David spake unto the Lord when he saw the angel that smote the people and said, "Lo, I have sinned and I have done wickedly, but these sheep, what have they done? let thine hand, I pray thee, be against me and against my father's house."

And Gad came that day to David, and said unto him, "Go up, rear an altar unto the Lord in the threshingfloor of Araunah the Jebusite." And David, according to the saying of Gad, went up as the Lord commanded.

And Araunah looked, and saw the king and his servants coming on toward him, and Araunah went out and bowed himself before the king on his face upon the ground. And Araunah said, "Wherefore is my lord the king come to his servant?" -- And David said, "To buy the threshingfloor of thee, to build an altar unto the Lord, that the plague may be stayed from the people." -- And Araunah said unto David, "Let my lord the king take and offer up what seemeth good unto him. Behold, here be oxen for burnt sacrifice, and threshing instruments and other instruments of the oxen for wood." All these things did Araunah, as a king, give unto the king. And Araunah said unto the king, "The Lord thy God accept thee."

And the king said unto Araunah, "Nay, but I will surely buy it of thee at a price; neither will I offer burnt offerings unto the Lord my God of that which doth cost me nothing." So David bought the threshingfloor and the oxen for fifty shekels of silver. And David built there an altar unto the Lord and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings. So the Lord was entreated for the land, and the plague was stayed from Israel.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2015, 03:09:21 PM »
1 Chronicles 21 states that it was Satan that incited the census. I would be inclined to belief it was probably some scribes error to attribute it to God because the passages are almost identical with the exception of that opening phrase thereby making it seem reasonable to assume that they both came from one source, but one has become corrupted throught the many years since it was originally written.
Yes, this is quite possible considering the O.T. was written thousands of years ago and copied over and over again..

The last several centuries hardly enters into it -- what, in AD 4000 are we going to say twice as loud as today that the Hebrews had a poor chance of preserving their literature? -- and, anyway, you're making it sound as tho ancient men of letters were mentally-retarded copybots.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2015, 03:11:11 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2015, 03:45:39 PM »
1 Chronicles 21 states that it was Satan that incited the census. I would be inclined to belief it was probably some scribes error to attribute it to God because the passages are almost identical with the exception of that opening phrase thereby making it seem reasonable to assume that they both came from one source, but one has become corrupted throught the many years since it was originally written.
Yes, this is quite possible considering the O.T. was written thousands of years ago and copied over and over again..

The last several centuries hardly enters into it -- what, in AD 4000 are we going to say twice as loud as today that the Hebrews had a poor chance of preserving their literature? -- and, anyway, you're making it sound as tho ancient men of letters were mentally-retarded copybots.
No, of course not. I would not say that.
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2015, 03:51:21 PM »
It goes on to show nobody that God has sent down to Earth has been sinless, but Jesus alone.

I'm hesitant to jump to this conclusion. But call me a Pelagian.

Yes, these are exactly my thoughts. I don't believe that God Himself asked David to do something that was sinful so just to punish David for something that David was told to do by God. There must be something to do either with translation or interpretation ,otherwise it doesn't seem fair since if God asks you to do something it would be the right thing to do, not a wrong thing to do in the eyes of the God as God only requires righteous things from us.

Why do you think there are these discrepancies in these verses? Is it due to translations or interpretations?

It's probably a little of both. Or it could be one or the other. But I think I've found satisfactory enough explanations to make sense of it, whatever of them are the correct explanation. It might be though that we cannot know the 100% precise reason unless we either find the answer in some lost Apocryphal book or get a direct revelation form God explaining it to us. These books actually point to other sources at times that have a fuller account of what is said. I lost my few chapters of Gad the Seer, but I remember reading about this in there, so if I find it again I'll post it here. But the only problem I see is with, as you said, God actually telling David to do something sinful and then David doing it and getting punished for it. But whatever the true reason is, it can't be that and I think I've come up with some satisfactory explanations, unless someone can rebut them. I'd sooner reject the whole thing as a corruption and go with Brenton's reading or none than accept that God told David that.
I agree with you. It would not make sense for God to tell something like this to David just to get him to sin, God is against sins. He would not instigate it.

There are similar examples. The most well-known is Pharaoh, probably, and the most lurid has already been mentioned upthread (the prophet the lion killed). If we expand the examples to include Satan being directed by God to instigate a certain evil, then there are more (I think of the "lying spirit" God used on Ahab). Clearly there was some Hebrew concept of God's being the direct author of evil sometimes.
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2015, 03:59:26 PM »
You're missing my point. If anything's a quick copy, it would have to be the I Chr record.


What?  ???

No one is saying either one is a "quick copy". Both are accounts of the incident that were copied into two different manuscripts detailing Israel's history. It is possible that one or the other had a copyist error in the first sentence of that chapter that was then memorialized. If you look at the Peshitta, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Septuagint and the Samaritan Pentateuch, you will see variances, some quite significant in the texts. None of those are "quick copies" of the other (at least, not to our knowledge). They are each codexes with their own unique history and into each, scribal errors and mistranslations entered in. It is possible or perhaps even probable that such is the case with this passage.
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2015, 04:03:26 PM »
It goes on to show nobody that God has sent down to Earth has been sinless, but Jesus alone.

I'm hesitant to jump to this conclusion. But call me a Pelagian.

Yes, these are exactly my thoughts. I don't believe that God Himself asked David to do something that was sinful so just to punish David for something that David was told to do by God. There must be something to do either with translation or interpretation ,otherwise it doesn't seem fair since if God asks you to do something it would be the right thing to do, not a wrong thing to do in the eyes of the God as God only requires righteous things from us.

Why do you think there are these discrepancies in these verses? Is it due to translations or interpretations?

It's probably a little of both. Or it could be one or the other. But I think I've found satisfactory enough explanations to make sense of it, whatever of them are the correct explanation. It might be though that we cannot know the 100% precise reason unless we either find the answer in some lost Apocryphal book or get a direct revelation form God explaining it to us. These books actually point to other sources at times that have a fuller account of what is said. I lost my few chapters of Gad the Seer, but I remember reading about this in there, so if I find it again I'll post it here. But the only problem I see is with, as you said, God actually telling David to do something sinful and then David doing it and getting punished for it. But whatever the true reason is, it can't be that and I think I've come up with some satisfactory explanations, unless someone can rebut them. I'd sooner reject the whole thing as a corruption and go with Brenton's reading or none than accept that God told David that.
I agree with you. It would not make sense for God to tell something like this to David just to get him to sin, God is against sins. He would not instigate it.

There are similar examples. The most well-known is Pharaoh, probably, and the most lurid has already been mentioned upthread (the prophet the lion killed). If we expand the examples to include Satan being directed by God to instigate a certain evil, then there are more (I think of the "lying spirit" God used on Ahab). Clearly there was some Hebrew concept of God's being the direct author of evil sometimes.
I don't think God directs evil, I think He allows evil to happen for one reason or another..
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Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2015, 09:15:47 AM »
From the Words of Gad the Seer found among the Cochin Jews, translated by a friend of mine from the Hebrew:

"[7:1] And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved the satan upon David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah to bring upon them the badness which he was ordering by the hand of Samuel the seer."
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2015, 09:30:43 AM »
But it's the "moved" (KJV) that's in question.

Many other translations translate it thus. So from this and looking at some concordances, I don't think it's too bad of a translation. I think it's pretty accurate. The Orthodox Study Bible has "incited."
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2015, 09:38:19 AM »
I doubt it's a scribal error though. If I accept the genuineness of the Words of Gad the Seer, then I don't see how how can reject this passage just because it says this. It seems this work clears up the problems. The Bible points to a work by this name as having extra details about these times. It seems Kingdoms and Chronicles used this work as a source and that's why one says it was God while the other Satan. It also seems way more likely that the variant I showed from Brenton was a change by someone who saw a moral problem with the text. They probably justified the change in the pretense of piety and the fact that the other parallel account says it was the devil, so maybe someone impious, like and impious Jew maybe, changed it to YHWH to make it as if YHWH and Satan are the same or something. There are Satan worshiping Jews out there after all, if I'm not mistaken, Masons.
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2015, 09:43:13 AM »
I doubt it's a scribal error though. If I accept the genuineness of the Words of Gad the Seer, then I don't see how how can reject this passage just because it says this. It seems this work clears up the problems. The Bible points to a work by this name as having extra details about these times. It seems Kingdoms and Chronicles used this work as a source and that's why one says it was God while the other Satan. It also seems way more likely that the variant I showed from Brenton was a change by someone who saw a moral problem with the text. They probably justified the change in the pretense of piety and the fact that the other parallel account says it was the devil, so maybe someone impious, like and impious Jew maybe, changed it to YHWH to make it as if YHWH and Satan are the same or something. There are Satan worshiping Jews out there after all, if I'm not mistaken, Masons.
That is a big if considering the oldest existant copy is from the 1800's.
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2015, 09:52:10 AM »
I doubt it's a scribal error though. If I accept the genuineness of the Words of Gad the Seer, then I don't see how how can reject this passage just because it says this. It seems this work clears up the problems. The Bible points to a work by this name as having extra details about these times. It seems Kingdoms and Chronicles used this work as a source and that's why one says it was God while the other Satan. It also seems way more likely that the variant I showed from Brenton was a change by someone who saw a moral problem with the text. They probably justified the change in the pretense of piety and the fact that the other parallel account says it was the devil, so maybe someone impious, like and impious Jew maybe, changed it to YHWH to make it as if YHWH and Satan are the same or something. There are Satan worshiping Jews out there after all, if I'm not mistaken, Masons.
Really, do you mean Freemasons?
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2015, 09:54:57 AM »
Quote
That is a big if considering the oldest existant copy is from the 1800's.

I don't think this in itself would be enough to cause me to reject it. Copies are copies. Even all complete texts of the Hebrew OT are very late. Same with the complete texts of the LXX. And though we don't have anything beyond this age for Gad the Seer, we do have plenty of evidence at Qumran and in ECF quotes that show that there were all kinds of more Scriptures that the Jews had that have more or less been lost. It could be forgery though, like what seems very much to be the case with the so-called Book of Jasher, but this age of the copies is not enough in itself to reject it for me.
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2015, 09:56:32 AM »
I doubt it's a scribal error though. If I accept the genuineness of the Words of Gad the Seer, then I don't see how how can reject this passage just because it says this. It seems this work clears up the problems. The Bible points to a work by this name as having extra details about these times. It seems Kingdoms and Chronicles used this work as a source and that's why one says it was God while the other Satan. It also seems way more likely that the variant I showed from Brenton was a change by someone who saw a moral problem with the text. They probably justified the change in the pretense of piety and the fact that the other parallel account says it was the devil, so maybe someone impious, like and impious Jew maybe, changed it to YHWH to make it as if YHWH and Satan are the same or something. There are Satan worshiping Jews out there after all, if I'm not mistaken, Masons.
Really, do you mean Freemasons?

Yeah, Freemasons. But I'm just giving an example. That might be a little extreme. But it does seem like someone thought it was an error and from that and their piety, they changed it.
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2015, 10:07:26 AM »
Quote
That is a big if considering the oldest existant copy is from the 1800's.

I don't think this in itself would be enough to cause me to reject it. Copies are copies. Even all complete texts of the Hebrew OT are very late. Same with the complete texts of the LXX. And though we don't have anything beyond this age for Gad the Seer, we do have plenty of evidence at Qumran and in ECF quotes that show that there were all kinds of more Scriptures that the Jews had that have more or less been lost. It could be forgery though, like what seems very much to be the case with the so-called Book of Jasher, but this age of the copies is not enough in itself to reject it for me.
True, but there is a big difference between the LXX where we have copies that are within a few hundred years of its original translation and the Words of Gad the Seer where there is a gap of almost 3,000 years between known copies.
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2015, 10:15:54 AM »
A little Googling of "Book of Gad the Seer" shows that the version that the Cochin Jews have in their possession is not the real work itself and is instead pseudepigraphic. So Theloveofthetruth's use of this to forward his argument is pretty much a false claim to begin with since he presupposes it to be the actual "Book of Gad the Seer" itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Gad_the_Seer
« Last Edit: March 10, 2015, 10:16:31 AM by sakura95 »
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2015, 11:47:35 AM »
Yeah scholars say a lot of things about the "Biblical" books too, like denying the supernatural. I will look at the whole book myself when it comes out and make my own conclusions.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2015, 11:48:01 AM by TheLoveOfTheTruth »
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2015, 12:05:00 PM »
Why, who else was sinless?

Well I would think if anyone else was sinless it would probably at least be Enoch and Elijah, since they never died but were taken to heaven alive. Paul said death passed upon all men because all have sinned. Death didn't pass on these guys, and maybe it's because they didn't sin. There are examples of men in the passed who were called righteous and perfect and no account is given of them having ever sinned, so I think it might be best to give them the benefit of the doubt and think the best of them, that they never did anything wrong, instead of assuming they were once sinners when no sin of them is ever mentioned. Especially since I believe in full unhindered free moral will of man, and that we have the ability to live sinless. But I'm not sure about all these variables and I need to look into things deeper. But I have doubts that "all have sinned" really means ALL, as in ever single person who has ever live, and even will live. There are other examples of Paul and others in Scripture saying "all" when it doesn't really mean ALL in the strictest literal sense. And the context of Paul's letter to the Romans seems to be about all types of people having access to salvation in Christ, not just Jews who received the Law, for all peoples/nations have sinned and need Christ. He also talks about how those of other nations who never received the Law can and have been righteous. It seems to be more about showing God is not partial toward Jews and that he wants all to be saved. That is the context I see, so I'm weary of taking one letter of Paul and making it to say every single human who has and will be has sinned. Especially considering we have a warning about him being difficult to understand at times, and people using him to support lawlessness to their own destruction. I'm certainly open to every single person having sinned before. But certainly I cannot believe it is because of necessity, because man is born unable to obey God without God doing it for him.
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2015, 12:13:19 PM »
Yeah scholars say a lot of things about the "Biblical" books too, like denying the supernatural. I will look at the whole book myself when it comes out and make my own conclusions.

The denial of Supernatural events as written in Scripture does not mean that it is pseudepigraphic. It is only pseudepigraphic if it is not written by the author it claims to be written by such as some of the letters of St Ignatius of Antioch. Whatever it is, it means that the document of the Cochin Jews is not the Book of Gad the Seer even if it claims to be so and its obvious given its linguistical structure and Kabbalistic influences which differs from that of the time period of the Old Testament.
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2015, 12:24:01 PM »
Scholars say 1Enoch is pseudo too, but Jude, and I would venture to say the writers of the NT, and much of the early Church accepted it as genuine, even some Orthodox today. 2nd Esdras as well is accepted by certain Orthodox as genuine, yet it is said to be pseudo by scholars. The "scholars" also say plenty of books from the standard Protestant Bible are pseudo, maybe not all though. I take what the scholars say with a grain of salt. I don't think most of them truly believe in prophecy. That's why they have all sorts of false anti-faith things to say about books like Daniel.
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2015, 12:46:02 PM »
Scholars say 1Enoch is pseudo too, but Jude, and I would venture to say the writers of the NT, and much of the early Church accepted it as genuine, even some Orthodox today. 2nd Esdras as well is accepted by certain Orthodox as genuine, yet it is said to be pseudo by scholars. The "scholars" also say plenty of books from the standard Protestant Bible are pseudo, maybe not all though. I take what the scholars say with a grain of salt. I don't think most of them truly believe in prophecy. That's why they have all sorts of false anti-faith things to say about books like Daniel.

Scholars never said that. It is simply mentioned that the Book of Enoch is based on Oral and Literary Traditions. This doesn't pose any problems to those that regard its Canonicity or reject it. Even a Sola Scripturist who somehow decided to accept 1Enoch as Canonical wouldn't see how this would threaten its validity. Also generally speaking the Academia have conflicting viewpoints when it comes to Biblical Scholarship so it is fallacious to generalize. The largest chunk of American philosophers believe in Compatabilist Free Will but it doesn't necessarily make Compatabilism true given the validity of arguments made by Libertarians and Hard Determinists. However in the case of the Book of Gad the Seer, the copy from the Cochin Jews is unanimously agreed to be pseudepigraphic for reasons I laid out prior.
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #44 on: March 10, 2015, 12:55:24 PM »
I doubt it's a scribal error though. If I accept the genuineness of the Words of Gad the Seer, then I don't see how how can reject this passage just because it says this. It seems this work clears up the problems. The Bible points to a work by this name as having extra details about these times. It seems Kingdoms and Chronicles used this work as a source and that's why one says it was God while the other Satan. It also seems way more likely that the variant I showed from Brenton was a change by someone who saw a moral problem with the text. They probably justified the change in the pretense of piety and the fact that the other parallel account says it was the devil, so maybe someone impious, like and impious Jew maybe, changed it to YHWH to make it as if YHWH and Satan are the same or something. There are Satan worshiping Jews out there after all, if I'm not mistaken, Masons.
Really, do you mean Freemasons?

Yeah, Freemasons. But I'm just giving an example. That might be a little extreme. But it does seem like someone thought it was an error and from that and their piety, they changed it.
Those who worship satan, are still called Jews??
I suppose you don't have to be a Jew to be a mason. I think a Christian can be a mason, only I don't think we should call them Christians or Jews as they don't follow the true God of Israel.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #45 on: March 10, 2015, 01:29:02 PM »
Freemasonry isn't a religion, altho it does require its members to believe in God (and, usually, the Bible). It's certainly not a religion of worship of Satan. It's a fraternal order modeled after the old guilds, arising in secrecy when the guilds were outlawed for nationalist economic reasons.
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #46 on: March 10, 2015, 02:51:30 PM »
Freemasonry isn't a religion, altho it does require its members to believe in God (and, usually, the Bible). It's certainly not a religion of worship of Satan. It's a fraternal order modeled after the old guilds, arising in secrecy when the guilds were outlawed for nationalist economic reasons.
You know a lot,Porter.
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #47 on: March 10, 2015, 11:42:38 PM »
A word for word translation of the Hebrew text of I Samuel 24:1, And again the anger of the LORD to burn against Israel, and it caused to persuade (induce, excite, urge) David against them to say, "Go number Israel and Judah."  The Hebrew word "Sut," which means persuade or induce or excite or urge, is a singular masculine.  Some translations translate "He" as God.  Some translate "He" as it (the anger).  Both are masculine singular, so one could translate it as God or anger.  Perhaps it was God's anger that caused David to get angry and add to it?  Just a little speculation.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #48 on: March 11, 2015, 12:40:12 AM »
How does that help? If God's anger has a volition of its own, we've got fancier theoditical problems than we began with.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2015, 12:40:46 AM by Porter ODoran »
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #49 on: March 11, 2015, 12:54:46 AM »
Sometimes the anger of an authority causes one to add to it.  The one in authority has to get after the one adding to the anger.

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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #50 on: March 11, 2015, 04:37:41 AM »
Those who worship satan, are still called Jews??
I suppose you don't have to be a Jew to be a mason. I think a Christian can be a mason, only I don't think we should call them Christians or Jews as they don't follow the true God of Israel.

Jews are even evil if they just reject Christ. Yet in Scripture Jews are still called Jews in the sense that they are biological descendants of Judah. But Scripture also says they are not truly Jews inwardly because they are not obeying God.

No you don't have to be a Jew to be a Freemason. I just said that because I believe Satanic Occult Jews started that stuff or are majorly involved in it.
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #51 on: March 11, 2015, 04:42:31 AM »
Freemasonry isn't a religion, altho it does require its members to believe in God (and, usually, the Bible). It's certainly not a religion of worship of Satan. It's a fraternal order modeled after the old guilds, arising in secrecy when the guilds were outlawed for nationalist economic reasons.

I take it you don't believe in the so-called conspiracies about Freemasonry then.
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #52 on: March 11, 2015, 07:23:46 AM »
hahaha , the hell of religion!

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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #53 on: March 11, 2015, 07:25:22 AM »
Freemasonry isn't a religion, altho it does require its members to believe in God (and, usually, the Bible). It's certainly not a religion of worship of Satan. It's a fraternal order modeled after the old guilds, arising in secrecy when the guilds were outlawed for nationalist economic reasons.

I take it you don't believe in the so-called conspiracies about Freemasonry then.

Anyone that does really enjoys fiction.
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #54 on: March 11, 2015, 08:17:39 AM »
Those who worship satan, are still called Jews??
I suppose you don't have to be a Jew to be a mason. I think a Christian can be a mason, only I don't think we should call them Christians or Jews as they don't follow the true God of Israel.

Jews are even evil if they just reject Christ. Yet in Scripture Jews are still called Jews in the sense that they are biological descendants of Judah. But Scripture also says they are not truly Jews inwardly because they are not obeying God.
No you don't have to be a Jew to be a Freemason. I just said that because I believe Satanic Occult Jews started that stuff or are majorly involved in it.

I've been around more than a week and have not quite understood the above. So God chose a people, fulfilled His Promise and now discarded them to evil? Is that about it? I do not know the Essence of God, but His Nature to promise for all time was reneged? And the position is such that what was the apple of His eye may now be characterized as evil and despised? So they alone killed rejected and killed Jesus, yes? That is what's bothering me, Spunky, so maybe you can get this by me, OK? You can justify hatred of a some people, using God as a backdrop, yes?
I'd like to have it out to understand that. Pass the duct tape.
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #55 on: March 11, 2015, 08:19:38 AM »
Freemasonry isn't a religion, altho it does require its members to believe in God (and, usually, the Bible). It's certainly not a religion of worship of Satan. It's a fraternal order modeled after the old guilds, arising in secrecy when the guilds were outlawed for nationalist economic reasons.

I take it you don't believe in the so-called conspiracies about Freemasonry then.

Anyone that does really enjoys fiction.
Or you are really into believing what ever your politicians or mainstream media tell you.
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #56 on: March 11, 2015, 08:44:58 AM »
Those who worship satan, are still called Jews??
I suppose you don't have to be a Jew to be a mason. I think a Christian can be a mason, only I don't think we should call them Christians or Jews as they don't follow the true God of Israel.

Jews are even evil if they just reject Christ. Yet in Scripture Jews are still called Jews in the sense that they are biological descendants of Judah. But Scripture also says they are not truly Jews inwardly because they are not obeying God.
No you don't have to be a Jew to be a Freemason. I just said that because I believe Satanic Occult Jews started that stuff or are majorly involved in it.

I've been around more than a week and have not quite understood the above. So God chose a people, fulfilled His Promise and now discarded them to evil? Is that about it? I do not know the Essence of God, but His Nature to promise for all time was reneged? And the position is such that what was the apple of His eye may now be characterized as evil and despised? So they alone killed rejected and killed Jesus, yes? That is what's bothering me, Spunky, so maybe you can get this by me, OK? You can justify hatred of a some people, using God as a backdrop, yes?
I'd like to have it out to understand that. Pass the duct tape.
Yes, exactly my thoughts...why would God chose a certain people of all the ethnicity of the world to be His people at the start to just turn on them at the end? I believe Jews are still God's people (not all but the ones that obey him) and this is why I can't say they are all evil and I hate them, that would be really wrong. Nobody is perfect and not all Christians are righteous same as Jews, there are good and bad apples in all religions.

The real Jews, by real I mean the ones who follow the God's commandments would never worship satan. Those Jews who do as not Jews by faith but merely by ethnicity, plus you don't have to be a Jew to worship satan.

There are many secular Jews just as secular Christians as there are Jew believers as there are Christians believers.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2015, 08:48:29 AM by andrewlya »
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Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #57 on: March 11, 2015, 09:04:19 AM »
Those who worship satan, are still called Jews??
I suppose you don't have to be a Jew to be a mason. I think a Christian can be a mason, only I don't think we should call them Christians or Jews as they don't follow the true God of Israel.

Jews are even evil if they just reject Christ. Yet in Scripture Jews are still called Jews in the sense that they are biological descendants of Judah. But Scripture also says they are not truly Jews inwardly because they are not obeying God.
No you don't have to be a Jew to be a Freemason. I just said that because I believe Satanic Occult Jews started that stuff or are majorly involved in it.

I've been around more than a week and have not quite understood the above. So God chose a people, fulfilled His Promise and now discarded them to evil? Is that about it? I do not know the Essence of God, but His Nature to promise for all time was reneged? And the position is such that what was the apple of His eye may now be characterized as evil and despised? So they alone killed rejected and killed Jesus, yes? That is what's bothering me, Spunky, so maybe you can get this by me, OK? You can justify hatred of a some people, using God as a backdrop, yes?
I'd like to have it out to understand that. Pass the duct tape.

God hasn't rejected Israel entirely. Only Israel of the mere flesh. And it's not like he did that out of his own desire but their own for he would have gathered them as a chicken gathers her chicks but they were not willing. Paul said it's to the Jew first. God hasn't replaced his real people with Gentiles. He has grafted them into Israel. But the true Israel is all those who obey God, the Jew first because of the promises, and then to the Greek, also because of the promises in the Seed of Abraham. God will restore Israel into the promised Land one day, and all the righteous Gentiles reckoned among her along with her. But those who cut themselves off of their own volition have no one to blame but themselves. And though they be called God's people after the flesh, they are bastards because they have been rejected for not bearing God's name righteously. But we wait for the glorious day when his true people after the flesh and more importantly spirit are restored the inheritance of Abraham in the promise Land, an incorruptible Kingdom. But for how they enjoy all the spiritual blessings in Christ already, a spiritual promise land, as if they were already in the New Heavens and New Earth with God and Christ. And yet again they earnestly await the redemption of the their bodies and and the redemption of creation, when old things pass away and all things become new entirely even in the physical. Remember, not all of Israel are Israel. God set before the people a blessing and a curse and most chose the curse so that's that. But the Scriptures say God is zealous for Israel. But he's not going to show partiality because of biology. All who work righteousness are accepted by him but all who do not are rejected. There is no respect of persons in true morality. And speaking the hard truth about some in love doesn't mean one hates them. We are to expose the evil, no matter if it's, say, politically correct. I know a lot of people say the Church Fathers are anti-Semitic. I used to. But it seems like at least a lot of them are misrepresented and are merely rehashing what the Scriptures themselves do, calling out those who say, we have Abraham for a father, when don't do the works of Abraham, and yet all the Gentiles, no matter how righteous cannot be on par with them, being a bunch of dogs. Christ is the truest Jew there will ever be so if you are in him you are a true Jew and no one ever hated their own flesh. The prophets foretell of a time when God will separate the sheep from the goats among the people of Israel. At time when the wheat will be sifted. When they will no longer have the clean among the unclean of Israel, so that the wicked can say, the fathers have eaten sour grapes but the children's teeth are set on edge. That God punishes and counts the righteous among the wicked, or saves them altogether. That's why the New Covenant is not like the Old. Unless it's a universal or universal partial for Israelites salvation, "All will know God" means all who are part of the people of God, not those cut off. In the Old Covenant you had the righteous few of the nation mixed with the unconverted many, many of which just went through motions of outward piety. This will not be so in the Kingdom. And it is not so even now for a true Assembly/Church. A little leaven leavens the whole lump.
"TRUTH IS HATE TO THOSE WHO HATE THE TRUTH"

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #58 on: March 11, 2015, 09:05:28 AM »
Yes, exactly my thoughts...why would God chose a certain people of all the ethnicity of the world to be His people at the start to just turn on them at the end?

Interesting that you'd be more bothered by his "going back on this plan" than by his supposedly implementing such a plan in the first place: that is, abandoning the bulk of his human creatures in favor of one tribe. However, even if we accept your notion of what Israel was and your emotion that it's incredible that God "turned on them in the end," you'd still have an answer in Scripture. Read the last chapters of Deuteronomy, in which the most vicious annihilation and other curses are promised to Israel by Jehovah in future years.
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Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #59 on: March 11, 2015, 09:10:15 AM »
Yes there are A LOT of fake Christians out there perfectly following the pattern of carnal Israel, fulfilling the Word through Solomon that history repeats itself.
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #60 on: March 11, 2015, 09:22:08 AM »

Jews are even evil if they just reject Christ. Yet in Scripture Jews are still called Jews in the sense that they are biological descendants of Judah. But Scripture also says they are not truly Jews inwardly because they are not obeying God.
No you don't have to be a Jew to be a Freemason. I just said that because I believe Satanic Occult Jews started that stuff or are majorly involved in it.

I've been around more than a week and have not quite understood the above. So God chose a people, fulfilled His Promise and now discarded them to evil? Is that about it? I do not know the Essence of God, but His Nature to promise for all time was reneged? And the position is such that what was the apple of His eye may now be characterized as evil and despised? So they alone killed rejected and killed Jesus, yes? That is what's bothering me, Spunky, so maybe you can get this by me, OK? You can justify hatred of a some people, using God as a backdrop, yes?
I'd like to have it out to understand that. Pass the duct tape.

God hasn't rejected Israel entirely. Only Israel of the mere flesh. And it's not like he did that out of his own desire but their own for he would have gathered them as a chicken gathers her chicks but they were not willing. Paul said it's to the Jew first. God hasn't replaced his real people with Gentiles. He has grafted them into Israel. But the true Israel is all those who obey God, the Jew first because of the promises, and then to the Greek, also because of the promises in the Seed of Abraham. God will restore Israel into the promised Land one day, and all the righteous Gentiles reckoned among her along with her. But those who cut themselves off of their own volition have no one to blame but themselves. And though they be called God's people after the flesh, they are bastards because they have been rejected for not bearing God's name righteously. But we wait for the glorious day when his true people after the flesh and more importantly spirit are restored the inheritance of Abraham in the promise Land, an incorruptible Kingdom. But for how they enjoy all the spiritual blessings in Christ already, a spiritual promise land, as if they were already in the New Heavens and New Earth with God and Christ. And yet again they earnestly await the redemption of the their bodies and and the redemption of creation, when old things pass away and all things become new entirely even in the physical. Remember, not all of Israel are Israel. God set before the people a blessing and a curse and most chose the curse so that's that. But the Scriptures say God is zealous for Israel. But he's not going to show partiality because of biology. All who work righteousness are accepted by him but all who do not are rejected. There is no respect of persons in true morality. And speaking the hard truth about some in love doesn't mean one hates them. We are to expose the evil, no matter if it's, say, politically correct. I know a lot of people say the Church Fathers are anti-Semitic. I used to. But it seems like at least a lot of them are misrepresented and are merely rehashing what the Scriptures themselves do, calling out those who say, we have Abraham for a father, when don't do the works of Abraham, and yet all the Gentiles, no matter how righteous cannot be on par with them, being a bunch of dogs. Christ is the truest Jew there will ever be so if you are in him you are a true Jew and no one ever hated their own flesh. The prophets foretell of a time when God will separate the sheep from the goats among the people of Israel. At time when the wheat will be sifted. When they will no longer have the clean among the unclean of Israel, so that the wicked can say, the fathers have eaten sour grapes but the children's teeth are set on edge. That God punishes and counts the righteous among the wicked, or saves them altogether. That's why the New Covenant is not like the Old. Unless it's a universal or universal partial for Israelites salvation, "All will know God" means all who are part of the people of God, not those cut off. In the Old Covenant you had the righteous few of the nation mixed with the unconverted many, many of which just went through motions of outward piety. This will not be so in the Kingdom. And it is not so even now for a true Assembly/Church. A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

wow.
Cut n' paste is one great invention.
So, to sum up the above palaver, as I am stupid and need simplicity, of which the above is not simple, though as one that is stupid I can recognize my own when seen, if you sin you go to hell.
No matter Jew or Geek. Is that about it?
I can make it more complicated, but you're seeking da "truth" can't see past the obvious I fear.
And I almost had my whole head duct taped!
« Last Edit: March 11, 2015, 09:23:06 AM by LenInSebastopol »
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Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #61 on: March 11, 2015, 09:40:28 AM »

Jews are even evil if they just reject Christ. Yet in Scripture Jews are still called Jews in the sense that they are biological descendants of Judah. But Scripture also says they are not truly Jews inwardly because they are not obeying God.
No you don't have to be a Jew to be a Freemason. I just said that because I believe Satanic Occult Jews started that stuff or are majorly involved in it.

I've been around more than a week and have not quite understood the above. So God chose a people, fulfilled His Promise and now discarded them to evil? Is that about it? I do not know the Essence of God, but His Nature to promise for all time was reneged? And the position is such that what was the apple of His eye may now be characterized as evil and despised? So they alone killed rejected and killed Jesus, yes? That is what's bothering me, Spunky, so maybe you can get this by me, OK? You can justify hatred of a some people, using God as a backdrop, yes?
I'd like to have it out to understand that. Pass the duct tape.

God hasn't rejected Israel entirely. Only Israel of the mere flesh. And it's not like he did that out of his own desire but their own for he would have gathered them as a chicken gathers her chicks but they were not willing. Paul said it's to the Jew first. God hasn't replaced his real people with Gentiles. He has grafted them into Israel. But the true Israel is all those who obey God, the Jew first because of the promises, and then to the Greek, also because of the promises in the Seed of Abraham. God will restore Israel into the promised Land one day, and all the righteous Gentiles reckoned among her along with her. But those who cut themselves off of their own volition have no one to blame but themselves. And though they be called God's people after the flesh, they are bastards because they have been rejected for not bearing God's name righteously. But we wait for the glorious day when his true people after the flesh and more importantly spirit are restored the inheritance of Abraham in the promise Land, an incorruptible Kingdom. But for how they enjoy all the spiritual blessings in Christ already, a spiritual promise land, as if they were already in the New Heavens and New Earth with God and Christ. And yet again they earnestly await the redemption of the their bodies and and the redemption of creation, when old things pass away and all things become new entirely even in the physical. Remember, not all of Israel are Israel. God set before the people a blessing and a curse and most chose the curse so that's that. But the Scriptures say God is zealous for Israel. But he's not going to show partiality because of biology. All who work righteousness are accepted by him but all who do not are rejected. There is no respect of persons in true morality. And speaking the hard truth about some in love doesn't mean one hates them. We are to expose the evil, no matter if it's, say, politically correct. I know a lot of people say the Church Fathers are anti-Semitic. I used to. But it seems like at least a lot of them are misrepresented and are merely rehashing what the Scriptures themselves do, calling out those who say, we have Abraham for a father, when don't do the works of Abraham, and yet all the Gentiles, no matter how righteous cannot be on par with them, being a bunch of dogs. Christ is the truest Jew there will ever be so if you are in him you are a true Jew and no one ever hated their own flesh. The prophets foretell of a time when God will separate the sheep from the goats among the people of Israel. At time when the wheat will be sifted. When they will no longer have the clean among the unclean of Israel, so that the wicked can say, the fathers have eaten sour grapes but the children's teeth are set on edge. That God punishes and counts the righteous among the wicked, or saves them altogether. That's why the New Covenant is not like the Old. Unless it's a universal or universal partial for Israelites salvation, "All will know God" means all who are part of the people of God, not those cut off. In the Old Covenant you had the righteous few of the nation mixed with the unconverted many, many of which just went through motions of outward piety. This will not be so in the Kingdom. And it is not so even now for a true Assembly/Church. A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

wow.
Cut n' paste is one great invention.
So, to sum up the above palaver, as I am stupid and need simplicity, of which the above is not simple, though as one that is stupid I can recognize my own when seen, if you sin you go to hell.
No matter Jew or Geek. Is that about it?
I can make it more complicated, but you're seeking da "truth" can't see past the obvious I fear.
And I almost had my whole head duct taped!

Yes. Basically the route you were going with your comment makes God a respecter of persons, and it also misrepresents the truth of the matter because God hasn't cast away his people whom he foreknew as Apostle Paul says. It wasn't a cut and paste by the way.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2015, 10:02:02 AM by TheLoveOfTheTruth »
"TRUTH IS HATE TO THOSE WHO HATE THE TRUTH"

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #62 on: March 11, 2015, 09:44:41 AM »
Those who worship satan, are still called Jews??
I suppose you don't have to be a Jew to be a mason. I think a Christian can be a mason, only I don't think we should call them Christians or Jews as they don't follow the true God of Israel.

Jews are even evil if they just reject Christ. Yet in Scripture Jews are still called Jews in the sense that they are biological descendants of Judah. But Scripture also says they are not truly Jews inwardly because they are not obeying God.
No you don't have to be a Jew to be a Freemason. I just said that because I believe Satanic Occult Jews started that stuff or are majorly involved in it.

I've been around more than a week and have not quite understood the above. So God chose a people, fulfilled His Promise and now discarded them to evil? Is that about it? I do not know the Essence of God, but His Nature to promise for all time was reneged? And the position is such that what was the apple of His eye may now be characterized as evil and despised? So they alone killed rejected and killed Jesus, yes? That is what's bothering me, Spunky, so maybe you can get this by me, OK? You can justify hatred of a some people, using God as a backdrop, yes?
I'd like to have it out to understand that. Pass the duct tape.

God hasn't rejected Israel entirely. Only Israel of the mere flesh. And it's not like he did that out of his own desire but their own for he would have gathered them as a chicken gathers her chicks but they were not willing. Paul said it's to the Jew first. God hasn't replaced his real people with Gentiles. He has grafted them into Israel. But the true Israel is all those who obey God, the Jew first because of the promises, and then to the Greek, also because of the promises in the Seed of Abraham. God will restore Israel into the promised Land one day, and all the righteous Gentiles reckoned among her along with her. But those who cut themselves off of their own volition have no one to blame but themselves. And though they be called God's people after the flesh, they are bastards because they have been rejected for not bearing God's name righteously. But we wait for the glorious day when his true people after the flesh and more importantly spirit are restored the inheritance of Abraham in the promise Land, an incorruptible Kingdom. But for how they enjoy all the spiritual blessings in Christ already, a spiritual promise land, as if they were already in the New Heavens and New Earth with God and Christ. And yet again they earnestly await the redemption of the their bodies and and the redemption of creation, when old things pass away and all things become new entirely even in the physical. Remember, not all of Israel are Israel. God set before the people a blessing and a curse and most chose the curse so that's that. But the Scriptures say God is zealous for Israel. But he's not going to show partiality because of biology. All who work righteousness are accepted by him but all who do not are rejected. There is no respect of persons in true morality. And speaking the hard truth about some in love doesn't mean one hates them. We are to expose the evil, no matter if it's, say, politically correct. I know a lot of people say the Church Fathers are anti-Semitic. I used to. But it seems like at least a lot of them are misrepresented and are merely rehashing what the Scriptures themselves do, calling out those who say, we have Abraham for a father, when don't do the works of Abraham, and yet all the Gentiles, no matter how righteous cannot be on par with them, being a bunch of dogs. Christ is the truest Jew there will ever be so if you are in him you are a true Jew and no one ever hated their own flesh. The prophets foretell of a time when God will separate the sheep from the goats among the people of Israel. At time when the wheat will be sifted. When they will no longer have the clean among the unclean of Israel, so that the wicked can say, the fathers have eaten sour grapes but the children's teeth are set on edge. That God punishes and counts the righteous among the wicked, or saves them altogether. That's why the New Covenant is not like the Old. Unless it's a universal or universal partial for Israelites salvation, "All will know God" means all who are part of the people of God, not those cut off. In the Old Covenant you had the righteous few of the nation mixed with the unconverted many, many of which just went through motions of outward piety. This will not be so in the Kingdom. And it is not so even now for a true Assembly/Church. A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

Wow I haven't seen this form of Scripture knowledge on this board before. Almost every sentence quotes or closely paraphrases Scripture. Brings me back to my fundamentalist days.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #63 on: March 11, 2015, 09:48:07 AM »
Its fun to mix and match verses. You can come up with all kinds of interesting teachings.
God bless!

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #64 on: March 11, 2015, 09:52:17 AM »
Its fun to mix and match verses. You can come up with all kinds of interesting teachings.

That needs to become an actual, hands-on game. Like those board books with halves of animals. -- Arrange clauses of Scripture -- you know, to the level of e.g. "5:14a" -- on either side and flip away. Could be developed for iPad. "In loving memory of 'Dr.' Harold Camping."
« Last Edit: March 11, 2015, 09:53:29 AM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #65 on: March 11, 2015, 10:02:59 AM »
Its fun to mix and match verses. You can come up with all kinds of interesting teachings.

That needs to become an actual, hands-on game. Like those board books with halves of animals. -- Arrange clauses of Scripture -- you know, to the level of e.g. "5:14a" -- on either side and flip away. Could be developed for iPad. "In loving memory of 'Dr.' Harold Camping."
:laugh: We need an app developer, posthaste!
God bless!

Offline TheLoveOfTheTruth

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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #66 on: March 11, 2015, 10:05:42 AM »
"Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of the mind, examining the Scriptures daily, whether these things were so."--ASV
"TRUTH IS HATE TO THOSE WHO HATE THE TRUTH"

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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #67 on: March 11, 2015, 10:08:06 AM »
Yes, exactly my thoughts...why would God chose a certain people of all the ethnicity of the world to be His people at the start to just turn on them at the end?

Interesting that you'd be more bothered by his "going back on this plan" than by his supposedly implementing such a plan in the first place: that is, abandoning the bulk of his human creatures in favor of one tribe. However, even if we accept your notion of what Israel was and your emotion that it's incredible that God "turned on them in the end," you'd still have an answer in Scripture. Read the last chapters of Deuteronomy, in which the most vicious annihilation and other curses are promised to Israel by Jehovah in future years.

+1 for the bolded part

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #68 on: March 11, 2015, 10:10:39 AM »
It's worth pointing out that the emphasis St. Luke is making there is not really the one your fundamentalist pastor makes. "These were more noble in that they received the word with all readiness of mind" -- that is, These people quickly welcomed what the Apostles told them. It's this receipt of the Apostolic word with an eager heart that then impelled them to "search the Scriptures" and flesh out their knowledge of what they were being taught.

Put conversely, if what St. Luke is saying were really what the Berean Bible Churches think he said, the sentence would read, "These were more noble ... in that they waited to receive the word, with all commendable doubtfulness of mind, until they had spent days examining the scriptures to prove these things were so or not so."
« Last Edit: March 11, 2015, 10:15:28 AM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #69 on: March 11, 2015, 10:11:49 AM »
God's people

« Last Edit: March 11, 2015, 10:15:24 AM by Skydive »

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #70 on: March 11, 2015, 11:49:04 AM »
Laughing man may be right!
Seems there are people around that have lizards inside of them....more and more.....even posting here!
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #71 on: March 11, 2015, 12:05:15 PM »
Yes, exactly my thoughts...why would God chose a certain people of all the ethnicity of the world to be His people at the start to just turn on them at the end?

Interesting that you'd be more bothered by his "going back on this plan" than by his supposedly implementing such a plan in the first place: that is, abandoning the bulk of his human creatures in favor of one tribe. However, even if we accept your notion of what Israel was and your emotion that it's incredible that God "turned on them in the end," you'd still have an answer in Scripture. Read the last chapters of Deuteronomy, in which the most vicious annihilation and other curses are promised to Israel by Jehovah in future years.
I should have said that the Jews have turned themselves against God by rejecting His commandments and His prophesies. I just don't think we should call Jews as evil because I am sure there are more righteous Jews than non righteous ones and God loves the righteous that is who ever heeds His commandments.
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #72 on: March 11, 2015, 12:14:51 PM »
"Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of the mind, examining the Scriptures daily, whether these things were so."--ASV

2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.

5 But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.

A reminder that the Thessalonian Jews rejected Christ based on Scripture as well, just like the Fundamentalist Protestants that deny Tradition and the many practices of Orthodoxy today.

Also, the Bereans are simply making sure that the "word" they received isn't contradictory to Scripture. They weren't being Sola Scripturists like Loveofthe'truth'
« Last Edit: March 11, 2015, 12:15:15 PM by sakura95 »
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #73 on: March 11, 2015, 12:26:40 PM »
Yes, exactly my thoughts...why would God chose a certain people of all the ethnicity of the world to be His people at the start to just turn on them at the end?

Interesting that you'd be more bothered by his "going back on this plan" than by his supposedly implementing such a plan in the first place: that is, abandoning the bulk of his human creatures in favor of one tribe. However, even if we accept your notion of what Israel was and your emotion that it's incredible that God "turned on them in the end," you'd still have an answer in Scripture. Read the last chapters of Deuteronomy, in which the most vicious annihilation and other curses are promised to Israel by Jehovah in future years.
I should have said that the Jews have turned themselves against God by rejecting His commandments and His prophesies. I just don't think we should call Jews as evil because I am sure there are more righteous Jews than non righteous ones and God loves the righteous that is who ever heeds His commandments.
Almost got it, just a bit wondering, Jewish folks that "keep His commandments and prophesies", is it up to us to say which ones? Like are they Reformed, Orthodox, Eastern, or those that kept the 647 rules while Our Lord was alive? IOW, we know it's God's job to let whomever He wishes into Heaven, so we judge Jews to be rejected or not by Him?
Need more duct tape, stat.
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #74 on: March 11, 2015, 01:16:59 PM »
Yes, exactly my thoughts...why would God chose a certain people of all the ethnicity of the world to be His people at the start to just turn on them at the end?

Interesting that you'd be more bothered by his "going back on this plan" than by his supposedly implementing such a plan in the first place: that is, abandoning the bulk of his human creatures in favor of one tribe. However, even if we accept your notion of what Israel was and your emotion that it's incredible that God "turned on them in the end," you'd still have an answer in Scripture. Read the last chapters of Deuteronomy, in which the most vicious annihilation and other curses are promised to Israel by Jehovah in future years.
I should have said that the Jews have turned themselves against God by rejecting His commandments and His prophesies. I just don't think we should call Jews as evil because I am sure there are more righteous Jews than non righteous ones and God loves the righteous that is who ever heeds His commandments.
Almost got it, just a bit wondering, Jewish folks that "keep His commandments and prophesies", is it up to us to say which ones? Like are they Reformed, Orthodox, Eastern, or those that kept the 647 rules while Our Lord was alive? IOW, we know it's God's job to let whomever He wishes into Heaven, so we judge Jews to be rejected or not by Him?
Need more duct tape, stat.
No, it is not, because we don't know their hearts, and who are we to judge.

There are of course bad Jews just as there are bad Christians who don't follow their faith as they should, it doesn't mean we have to call all of them evil because this is not fair and is not the case.

I have always been of a stance that we should not judge the Jews, let's not forget that the Jews were the 1st people to accept Jesus, secondly, there are Jews who still accept Jesus as their Messiah such as Messianic Jews and Jews for Jesus.

I believe in One God- the Heavenly Father Yahweh-John 17:3,1 Corinthians 8:6
I believe in the Son of the Living God- Yahshua our Messiah-Matthew 16:16

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #75 on: March 11, 2015, 07:42:00 PM »
Lord, have mercy.
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Re: Confused about this verse.
« Reply #76 on: March 11, 2015, 07:58:41 PM »
In I Chronicles 21:1 , the word Satan could be the name of the bad angel, or it could mean "an adversary."  The latter makes a little more sense to me, but it also raises the question as to why the writer would write "an adversary" rather than the name of the country or person (Absalom?) who opposed David.