Author Topic: Lent: Prayer, Fast and Abstinence......  (Read 7682 times)

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Offline Bob2

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Re: Lent: Prayer, Fast and Abstinence......
« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2015, 05:17:09 PM »
And chocolate. You know the whole female thing with that monthly struggle. ;)

Dark chocolate is Lenten. ;)


Just don't read the ingredients list. They have a way of sneaking milk products into dark chocolate.

Same way that margarine is about 5% milk solids. Still acceptable for Lenten cooking.

Can I quote you on that?

If you wish. Or my priest, with his annual dark chocolate birthday cake; I very much doubt the Khouria looks for vegan shortening. ;)



No need to go hunting for it, it is not that hard to find. I personally wouldn't worry that much about the minimal milk in margarine, but if I was to make something like that for sharing at a parish meal the above is what I use (to not offend the conscience of others or create temptation), then you can also share it with other non-Orthodox granola munching vegan friends, who tend to be even more particular than we are.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 05:20:57 PM by Bob2 »

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Re: Lent: Prayer, Fast and Abstinence......
« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2015, 05:23:08 PM »
The rules are designed for the monastic life and meant as the ideal.

I think I know what you mean, but I don't know that I would put it this way.  You might as well say that Vespers is designed for the monastic life. 
OC.NET is full of temptations, but in temptations we are enforced, remember about the thread "Temptation in the Desert: Rachel Weisz and the Undoing of Mor Ephrem". OC.NET helps in becoming unpassionate.

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Offline TheMathematician

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Re: Lent: Prayer, Fast and Abstinence......
« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2015, 05:35:20 PM »
The rules are designed for the monastic life and meant as the ideal.

I think I know what you mean, but I don't know that I would put it this way.  You might as well say that Vespers is designed for the monastic life.
What I was going for is that our fasting rules are meant as the ideal and what should be strived for, rather than the benchmark of the RCC.


(Also side quick note, how would a layman pray vespers by himself? what would need to be changed, or is it read/chanted the whole way through without changes?)

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Lent: Prayer, Fast and Abstinence......
« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2015, 05:46:04 PM »
The rules are designed for the monastic life and meant as the ideal.

I think I know what you mean, but I don't know that I would put it this way.  You might as well say that Vespers is designed for the monastic life.
What I was going for is that our fasting rules are meant as the ideal and what should be strived for, rather than the benchmark of the RCC.


(Also side quick note, how would a layman pray vespers by himself? what would need to be changed, or is it read/chanted the whole way through without changes?)

You would pray a "reader's service" in front of your house icons. But in terms of mealtimes, "Vespers" means the same as the "ninth hour", since in monasteries the fathers pray the ninth hour and follow it immediately with vespers, and then take their evening meal.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Lent: Prayer, Fast and Abstinence......
« Reply #49 on: February 20, 2015, 06:10:45 PM »
(Also side quick note, how would a layman pray vespers by himself? what would need to be changed, or is it read/chanted the whole way through without changes?)

It's basically the same, except there are no blessings (e.g., "Blessed is our God...", "The blessing of the Lord be upon you..."), litanies, or priestly prayers/conclusions to prayers.  They are omitted or something else substitutes them.   
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Lent: Prayer, Fast and Abstinence......
« Reply #50 on: February 20, 2015, 07:03:06 PM »
The rules are designed for the monastic life and meant as the ideal.

I think I know what you mean, but I don't know that I would put it this way.  You might as well say that Vespers is designed for the monastic life.

If I am a peasant/peon in the field working my butt off 917 days a week from sunup to sunset, how am I suppose to attend so many services, as during the first week of Great Lent?
Obviously I am not, especially at this time of year! I am to go hungry and work like a mule?
So this all was made for those that can sit at computers? in libraries? being over weight? doing so little? Serious questions, as most of the people, most of the time in most of the places lived as such. Consider!
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Lent: Prayer, Fast and Abstinence......
« Reply #51 on: February 20, 2015, 07:14:49 PM »
The rules are designed for the monastic life and meant as the ideal.

I think I know what you mean, but I don't know that I would put it this way.  You might as well say that Vespers is designed for the monastic life.

If I am a peasant/peon in the field working my butt off 917 days a week from sunup to sunset, how am I suppose to attend so many services, as during the first week of Great Lent?
Obviously I am not, especially at this time of year! I am to go hungry and work like a mule?
So this all was made for those that can sit at computers? in libraries? being over weight? doing so little? Serious questions, as most of the people, most of the time in most of the places lived as such. Consider!

No need to get hysterical. The monastic regimen is the ideal, but those who live outside monasteries should adapt the rules to their specific circumstances under appropriate guidance.

I do recall reading a canon that specifically forbids monks from hard labor during the first week of Lent when fasting is particularly severe (two meals over five days!).

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Re: Lent: Prayer, Fast and Abstinence......
« Reply #52 on: February 20, 2015, 07:26:18 PM »
And chocolate. You know the whole female thing with that monthly struggle. ;)

Dark chocolate is Lenten. ;)


Just don't read the ingredients list. They have a way of sneaking milk products into dark chocolate.

Same way that margarine is about 5% milk solids. Still acceptable for Lenten cooking.

Can I quote you on that?

If you wish. Or my priest, with his annual dark chocolate birthday cake; I very much doubt the Khouria looks for vegan shortening. ;)



No need to go hunting for it, it is not that hard to find. I personally wouldn't worry that much about the minimal milk in margarine, but if I was to make something like that for sharing at a parish meal the above is what I use (to not offend the conscience of others or create temptation), then you can also share it with other non-Orthodox granola munching vegan friends, who tend to be even more particular than we are.

If it makes you feel better. :) My Lenten cooking and baking experience (and recipe collection) goes back years before vegan anything existed, let alone became widely available. What was okay then is still okay now, especially if it requires no extra effort or expense.
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Re: Lent: Prayer, Fast and Abstinence......
« Reply #53 on: February 20, 2015, 08:18:24 PM »
The rules are designed for the monastic life and meant as the ideal.

I think I know what you mean, but I don't know that I would put it this way.  You might as well say that Vespers is designed for the monastic life.

If I am a peasant/peon in the field working my butt off 917 days a week from sunup to sunset, how am I suppose to attend so many services, as during the first week of Great Lent?

I don't know.  What universe do you live in where the week has an extra nine hundred and ten days? 

Quote
Obviously I am not, especially at this time of year! I am to go hungry and work like a mule?
So this all was made for those that can sit at computers? in libraries? being over weight? doing so little? Serious questions, as most of the people, most of the time in most of the places lived as such. Consider!

I don't know how people did things "back then".  I do know that what we have now in terms of fasting rules and customs, liturgical cycles, and other aspects of Church life obviously worked well enough for enough people that it survived while other practices died out.  If that is so, then the people managed, whether by eating extra or working less or going to church only so much or what have you, and people still manage in this way, and that's fine.   

My point to TheMathematician was simply that the rules for fasting are not "monastic" per se.  It's not like the monasteries have one practice and the parishes have an entirely different practice.  They're basically the same practice and the same rule, with adjustments being made according to the needs of the community.  If the rules for fasting are "monastic", then the services in your parish are also "monastic", as are your prayer books and a whole bunch of other things.  But it seems to be the case that when something in our tradition seems particularly burdensome or difficult and we don't want to do it, labeling it as "monastic" is a pious way of saying "Ain't nobody got time for that". 
OC.NET is full of temptations, but in temptations we are enforced, remember about the thread "Temptation in the Desert: Rachel Weisz and the Undoing of Mor Ephrem". OC.NET helps in becoming unpassionate.

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Lent: Prayer, Fast and Abstinence......
« Reply #54 on: February 20, 2015, 10:45:10 PM »
The rules are designed for the monastic life and meant as the ideal.

I think I know what you mean, but I don't know that I would put it this way.  You might as well say that Vespers is designed for the monastic life.

If I am a peasant/peon in the field working my butt off 917 days a week from sunup to sunset, how am I suppose to attend so many services, as during the first week of Great Lent?
Obviously I am not, especially at this time of year! I am to go hungry and work like a mule?
So this all was made for those that can sit at computers? in libraries? being over weight? doing so little? Serious questions, as most of the people, most of the time in most of the places lived as such. Consider!

"This all" was clearly not made for "those that can sit at computers," considering it hearkens from many centuries ago. I am not sure what Jonathan Gress's "book" is, from which he says he derived his rules, but there's no doubt common people fasted. A subsistence farmer's work was mostly in planting and harvest -- if he also had some flocks, then there was a burst of work in the butchering and birthing seasons -- and so the truly arduous work was hardly non-stop, rather, intense work was almost rare. It's true that most of us would find scouring clothes by hand, baking and gardening, to be hard work to begin with, but even most of us would soon find them just chores. Recent studies suggest the tasks of a peasant who was not being mistreated amounted -- averaged over a year, and if they could be done all together like a factory -- to about eleven hours of work a day.
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Lent: Prayer, Fast and Abstinence......
« Reply #55 on: February 20, 2015, 10:47:09 PM »
The rules are designed for the monastic life and meant as the ideal.

I think I know what you mean, but I don't know that I would put it this way.  You might as well say that Vespers is designed for the monastic life.

If I am a peasant/peon in the field working my butt off 917 days a week from sunup to sunset, how am I suppose to attend so many services, as during the first week of Great Lent?
Obviously I am not, especially at this time of year! I am to go hungry and work like a mule?
So this all was made for those that can sit at computers? in libraries? being over weight? doing so little? Serious questions, as most of the people, most of the time in most of the places lived as such. Consider!

"This all" was clearly not made for "those that can sit at computers," considering it hearkens from many centuries ago. I am not sure what Jonathan Gress's "book" is, from which he says he derived his rules, but there's no doubt common people fasted. A subsistence farmer's work was mostly in planting and harvest -- if he also had some flocks, then there was a burst of work in the butchering and birthing seasons -- and so the truly arduous work was hardly non-stop, rather, intense work was almost rare. It's true that most of us would find scouring clothes by hand, baking and gardening, to be hard work to begin with, but even most of us would soon find them just chores. Recent studies suggest the tasks of a peasant who was not being mistreated amounted -- averaged over a year, and if they could be done all together like a factory -- to about eleven hours of work a day.

You can find the rules in the introduction to Met Kallistos' edition of the Triodion.

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Lent: Prayer, Fast and Abstinence......
« Reply #56 on: February 20, 2015, 11:22:42 PM »
The rules are designed for the monastic life and meant as the ideal.

I think I know what you mean, but I don't know that I would put it this way.  You might as well say that Vespers is designed for the monastic life.

If I am a peasant/peon in the field working my butt off 917 days a week from sunup to sunset, how am I suppose to attend so many services, as during the first week of Great Lent?

I don't know.  What universe do you live in where the week has an extra nine hundred and ten days? 

Quote
Obviously I am not, especially at this time of year! I am to go hungry and work like a mule?
So this all was made for those that can sit at computers? in libraries? being over weight? doing so little? Serious questions, as most of the people, most of the time in most of the places lived as such. Consider!

I don't know how people did things "back then".  I do know that what we have now in terms of fasting rules and customs, liturgical cycles, and other aspects of Church life obviously worked well enough for enough people that it survived while other practices died out.  If that is so, then the people managed, whether by eating extra or working less or going to church only so much or what have you, and people still manage in this way, and that's fine.   

My point to TheMathematician was simply that the rules for fasting are not "monastic" per se.  It's not like the monasteries have one practice and the parishes have an entirely different practice.  They're basically the same practice and the same rule, with adjustments being made according to the needs of the community.  If the rules for fasting are "monastic", then the services in your parish are also "monastic", as are your prayer books and a whole bunch of other things.  But it seems to be the case that when something in our tradition seems particularly burdensome or difficult and we don't want to do it, labeling it as "monastic" is a pious way of saying "Ain't nobody got time for that".

Back then life was short, brutish and hard, and more so for the peon/peasant.
I don't know what it means that there is 'one practice' that is both monastic and parish. I do know what my priest says the same thing, sometimes, I think. If I want to eat hot dogs every day, I can do so, but not someone in a monastery.
I do not know if our services are "monastic" and we have no prayer books.
I do know page turning is a major thing for the choir! Gad zooks, it is a biggie.
I get the same sense as you put it, "monastic" = nau, nuh" and yet all look forward to fasting and Lent with great excitement!  Although one of the nuns has declared a new sin showing up often during Lent: the sin of Snarkiness.  :laugh:
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Lent: Prayer, Fast and Abstinence......
« Reply #57 on: February 20, 2015, 11:27:07 PM »
Back then life was short, brutish and hard, and more so for the peon/peasant.

::)

Somebody needs to read Hesiod.

Regardless, the Church has always known man as he always was and is and will be, and her statutes are inspired, by the God who alone loves man, for his benefit.
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Lent: Prayer, Fast and Abstinence......
« Reply #58 on: February 20, 2015, 11:36:08 PM »
The rules are designed for the monastic life and meant as the ideal.

I think I know what you mean, but I don't know that I would put it this way.  You might as well say that Vespers is designed for the monastic life.

If I am a peasant/peon in the field working my butt off 917 days a week from sunup to sunset, how am I suppose to attend so many services, as during the first week of Great Lent?
Obviously I am not, especially at this time of year! I am to go hungry and work like a mule?
So this all was made for those that can sit at computers? in libraries? being over weight? doing so little? Serious questions, as most of the people, most of the time in most of the places lived as such. Consider!

"This all" was clearly not made for "those that can sit at computers," considering it hearkens from many centuries ago. I am not sure what Jonathan Gress's "book" is, from which he says he derived his rules, but there's no doubt common people fasted. A subsistence farmer's work was mostly in planting and harvest -- if he also had some flocks, then there was a burst of work in the butchering and birthing seasons -- and so the truly arduous work was hardly non-stop, rather, intense work was almost rare. It's true that most of us would find scouring clothes by hand, baking and gardening, to be hard work to begin with, but even most of us would soon find them just chores. Recent studies suggest the tasks of a peasant who was not being mistreated amounted -- averaged over a year, and if they could be done all together like a factory -- to about eleven hours of work a day.

Point was that much of the practices came out of people that sat around and thought, wrote, discussed "issues" and did not work outside 11 hours a day in the sun, wind and/or rain. They didn't tend large livestock for the most part and smell ready for church daily.
It is a facile explanation of farming posted here and things were not so. Eleven hours a day means about sun-up to sun-down much of the year, no? From what I gather around here you may have some experience as I thought someone wrote you were Amish? So your communal life was made of chores around a farm, yes? Then I need not explain the trepidation of having to respond to the weather in a timely fashion as Mother Nature does not forgive to much. If you have farmed then I cannot tell you how hard it is, but I do know around here my little plot mandates several hours of arduous work almost daily. To stop, drive into town and tend to a service in the middle of the morn is not an easy task AND to get my land happy again from the Winter. And then to do it again in mid day and evening time as well! No, sorry, while I know First Things come First, so does taking care of the home front. There are reasons folks turn away from farming and they are easy to understand.
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Re: Lent: Prayer, Fast and Abstinence......
« Reply #59 on: February 21, 2015, 12:23:50 AM »
If I want to eat hot dogs every day, I can do so, but not someone in a monastery.

Why?
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Lent: Prayer, Fast and Abstinence......
« Reply #60 on: February 21, 2015, 12:55:59 AM »
If I want to eat hot dogs every day, I can do so, but not someone in a monastery.

Why?

Don't like hotdogs; point is that I can do so and one isolated in a monastery has no access to do so. So how may such practices be called "the same"?
« Last Edit: February 21, 2015, 12:56:15 AM by LenInSebastopol »
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Re: Lent: Prayer, Fast and Abstinence......
« Reply #61 on: February 21, 2015, 01:00:41 AM »
The rules are designed for the monastic life and meant as the ideal.

I think I know what you mean, but I don't know that I would put it this way.  You might as well say that Vespers is designed for the monastic life.

If I am a peasant/peon in the field working my butt off 917 days a week from sunup to sunset, how am I suppose to attend so many services, as during the first week of Great Lent?
Obviously I am not, especially at this time of year! I am to go hungry and work like a mule?
So this all was made for those that can sit at computers? in libraries? being over weight? doing so little? Serious questions, as most of the people, most of the time in most of the places lived as such. Consider!

"This all" was clearly not made for "those that can sit at computers," considering it hearkens from many centuries ago. I am not sure what Jonathan Gress's "book" is, from which he says he derived his rules, but there's no doubt common people fasted. A subsistence farmer's work was mostly in planting and harvest -- if he also had some flocks, then there was a burst of work in the butchering and birthing seasons -- and so the truly arduous work was hardly non-stop, rather, intense work was almost rare. It's true that most of us would find scouring clothes by hand, baking and gardening, to be hard work to begin with, but even most of us would soon find them just chores. Recent studies suggest the tasks of a peasant who was not being mistreated amounted -- averaged over a year, and if they could be done all together like a factory -- to about eleven hours of work a day.

Point was that much of the practices came out of people that sat around and thought, wrote, discussed "issues" and did not work outside 11 hours a day in the sun, wind and/or rain. They didn't tend large livestock for the most part and smell ready for church daily.
It is a facile explanation of farming posted here and things were not so. Eleven hours a day means about sun-up to sun-down much of the year, no? From what I gather around here you may have some experience as I thought someone wrote you were Amish? So your communal life was made of chores around a farm, yes? Then I need not explain the trepidation of having to respond to the weather in a timely fashion as Mother Nature does not forgive to much. If you have farmed then I cannot tell you how hard it is, but I do know around here my little plot mandates several hours of arduous work almost daily. To stop, drive into town and tend to a service in the middle of the morn is not an easy task AND to get my land happy again from the Winter. And then to do it again in mid day and evening time as well! No, sorry, while I know First Things come First, so does taking care of the home front. There are reasons folks turn away from farming and they are easy to understand.

Yes, I was raised in that kind of community, and we went to multiple, long worship services a week, year round. We also had special periods annually (or more) where worship services were held multiple times a day every day in a week ("week of meetings"). I do find it curious that you hold yourself able suddenly to judge what was impossible for ancient people or is impossible for farmers. Let's judge what is possible for ourselves.
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Re: Lent: Prayer, Fast and Abstinence......
« Reply #62 on: February 21, 2015, 02:44:27 AM »
Just curious do most Orthodox on here abstain from meat throughout Lent?

Or other meat products also like milk,eggs and cheese?
And if they do, do the break the fast on Sundays?

This question goes for nonOrthodox as well.

The first answer is, as usual, go ask your priest!
In our parish most of us try and fast from all the above until Pascha but since we have Greeks, Russians, Eritreans, and sprinklings of other country-traditions, including new converts (Americans), our priest encourages us to hold the parish to monastery standards. IOW, try to eat one/day, and try that one after Noon or even 3PM. But he knows us so he tells if, who are in the world, to have a light breakfast like toast, fruit & coffee. I cheat and use almond milk too. On Saturdays & Sundays we can have wine and oil.

Last year went to a one day seminar on Great Lent and was informed that other countries, over time, had other tradition. The one point I do recall was that Macedonians fasted for two weeks only, but it was on bread and water!

You think almond milk is cheating?
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Re: Lent: Prayer, Fast and Abstinence......
« Reply #63 on: February 21, 2015, 03:13:16 AM »
Just curious do most Orthodox on here abstain from meat throughout Lent?

Or other meat products also like milk,eggs and cheese?
And if they do, do the break the fast on Sundays?

This question goes for nonOrthodox as well.

The first answer is, as usual, go ask your priest!
In our parish most of us try and fast from all the above until Pascha but since we have Greeks, Russians, Eritreans, and sprinklings of other country-traditions, including new converts (Americans), our priest encourages us to hold the parish to monastery standards. IOW, try to eat one/day, and try that one after Noon or even 3PM. But he knows us so he tells if, who are in the world, to have a light breakfast like toast, fruit & coffee. I cheat and use almond milk too. On Saturdays & Sundays we can have wine and oil.

Last year went to a one day seminar on Great Lent and was informed that other countries, over time, had other tradition. The one point I do recall was that Macedonians fasted for two weeks only, but it was on bread and water!

You think almond milk is cheating?

If not cheating, certainly goofy.

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Lent: Prayer, Fast and Abstinence......
« Reply #64 on: February 21, 2015, 09:45:56 AM »
Back then life was short, brutish and hard, and more so for the peon/peasant.

::)

Somebody needs to read Hesiod.

Regardless, the Church has always known man as he always was and is and will be, and her statutes are inspired, by the God who alone loves man, for his benefit.

And Mr. Hobbes.
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Lent: Prayer, Fast and Abstinence......
« Reply #65 on: February 21, 2015, 09:50:30 AM »
Just curious do most Orthodox on here abstain from meat throughout Lent?

Or other meat products also like milk,eggs and cheese?
And if they do, do the break the fast on Sundays?

This question goes for nonOrthodox as well.

The first answer is, as usual, go ask your priest!
In our parish most of us try and fast from all the above until Pascha but since we have Greeks, Russians, Eritreans, and sprinklings of other country-traditions, including new converts (Americans), our priest encourages us to hold the parish to monastery standards. IOW, try to eat one/day, and try that one after Noon or even 3PM. But he knows us so he tells if, who are in the world, to have a light breakfast like toast, fruit & coffee. I cheat and use almond milk too. On Saturdays & Sundays we can have wine and oil.

Last year went to a one day seminar on Great Lent and was informed that other countries, over time, had other tradition. The one point I do recall was that Macedonians fasted for two weeks only, but it was on bread and water!

You think almond milk is cheating?


I suppose not, but in a sense all food is cheating, as in I "rationalize" my sins and desires at times. It's better when we don't.
How about bacon bits? Not cheating?  I know Seventh Day Adventist who make soy products in the shape of pork chops....is that duplicity? I only know the answer for me. They are fine with it.
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Lent: Prayer, Fast and Abstinence......
« Reply #66 on: February 21, 2015, 09:51:39 AM »
Just curious do most Orthodox on here abstain from meat throughout Lent?

Or other meat products also like milk,eggs and cheese?
And if they do, do the break the fast on Sundays?

This question goes for nonOrthodox as well.

The first answer is, as usual, go ask your priest!
In our parish most of us try and fast from all the above until Pascha but since we have Greeks, Russians, Eritreans, and sprinklings of other country-traditions, including new converts (Americans), our priest encourages us to hold the parish to monastery standards. IOW, try to eat one/day, and try that one after Noon or even 3PM. But he knows us so he tells if, who are in the world, to have a light breakfast like toast, fruit & coffee. I cheat and use almond milk too. On Saturdays & Sundays we can have wine and oil.

Last year went to a one day seminar on Great Lent and was informed that other countries, over time, had other tradition. The one point I do recall was that Macedonians fasted for two weeks only, but it was on bread and water!

You think almond milk is cheating?

If not cheating, certainly goofy.

Yes, dear.
Of course, dear.
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Offline mike

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Re: Lent: Prayer, Fast and Abstinence......
« Reply #67 on: February 21, 2015, 10:37:27 AM »
If I am a peasant/peon in the field working my butt off 917 days a week from sunup to sunset, how am I suppose to attend so many services, as during the first week of Great Lent?

How much outside work in winter?
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Lent: Prayer, Fast and Abstinence......
« Reply #68 on: February 21, 2015, 11:17:56 AM »
If I am a peasant/peon in the field working my butt off 917 days a week from sunup to sunset, how am I suppose to attend so many services, as during the first week of Great Lent?

How much outside work in winter?

Not to much, but repairs and preparations do take time while animals are always hungry. But being lazy by nature, going out two, three times to church is not made easy after shoveling snow.
Thank God we live in the modern age, though we still be peasants, we have things kings couldn't even dream of and life is much easier.
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Re: Lent: Prayer, Fast and Abstinence......
« Reply #69 on: February 21, 2015, 12:43:08 PM »
The rules are designed for the monastic life and meant as the ideal.

I think I know what you mean, but I don't know that I would put it this way.  You might as well say that Vespers is designed for the monastic life.

If I am a peasant/peon in the field working my butt off 917 days a week from sunup to sunset, how am I suppose to attend so many services, as during the first week of Great Lent?
Obviously I am not, especially at this time of year! I am to go hungry and work like a mule?
So this all was made for those that can sit at computers? in libraries? being over weight? doing so little? Serious questions, as most of the people, most of the time in most of the places lived as such. Consider!

"This all" was clearly not made for "those that can sit at computers," considering it hearkens from many centuries ago. I am not sure what Jonathan Gress's "book" is, from which he says he derived his rules, but there's no doubt common people fasted. A subsistence farmer's work was mostly in planting and harvest -- if he also had some flocks, then there was a burst of work in the butchering and birthing seasons -- and so the truly arduous work was hardly non-stop, rather, intense work was almost rare. It's true that most of us would find scouring clothes by hand, baking and gardening, to be hard work to begin with, but even most of us would soon find them just chores. Recent studies suggest the tasks of a peasant who was not being mistreated amounted -- averaged over a year, and if they could be done all together like a factory -- to about eleven hours of work a day.

Oops! Important mistake here, and can't edit the post at this time -- this should read "eleven hours a week."
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Re: Lent: Prayer, Fast and Abstinence......
« Reply #70 on: February 21, 2015, 12:46:30 PM »
Back then life was short, brutish and hard, and more so for the peon/peasant.

::)

Somebody needs to read Hesiod.

Regardless, the Church has always known man as he always was and is and will be, and her statutes are inspired, by the God who alone loves man, for his benefit.

And Mr. Hobbes.

Your contention is that reactionary political propagandists of the Reformation were filled with the Holy Spirit to a greater amount than the Fathers?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Lent: Prayer, Fast and Abstinence......
« Reply #71 on: February 21, 2015, 02:18:32 PM »
If I want to eat hot dogs every day, I can do so, but not someone in a monastery.

Why?

Don't like hotdogs; point is that I can do so and one isolated in a monastery has no access to do so. So how may such practices be called "the same"?

A person in a monastery cannot eat hot dogs because the monastery is not likely to have them to serve at refectory, not because monastic Orthodoxy and parish Orthodoxy are two entirely different things.  There is no separate Liturgy or Vespers/Matins or fasting rules or Ten Commandments or sacraments or anything else for monks and for laity.  All of us have these things in common, but in matters which allow variation, some are more strict than others.  That is all.  It's not two separate religions.       
OC.NET is full of temptations, but in temptations we are enforced, remember about the thread "Temptation in the Desert: Rachel Weisz and the Undoing of Mor Ephrem". OC.NET helps in becoming unpassionate.

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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Lent: Prayer, Fast and Abstinence......
« Reply #72 on: February 22, 2015, 12:22:16 AM »
Back then life was short, brutish and hard, and more so for the peon/peasant.

::)

Somebody needs to read Hesiod.

Regardless, the Church as always known man as he always was and is and will be, and her statutes are inspired, by the God who alone loves man, for his benefit.

And Mr. Hobbes.

Your contention is that reactionary political propagandists of the Reformation were filled with the Holy Spirit to a greater amount than the Fathers?
Heavens no. They were aware of the kind of life I have seen and worked.
Was your reference to a pre-Christian, slave-sharing, Greek poet having his POV promulgated some reference to God as we know Him as well?
Curious that you consider the characteristic of Mr. Hobbes as you do. So life was prior to mechanization was sweet like poetry for a peasant? We are worlds apart!
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Lent: Prayer, Fast and Abstinence......
« Reply #73 on: February 22, 2015, 12:29:01 AM »
If I want to eat hot dogs every day, I can do so, but not someone in a monastery.

Why?

Don't like hotdogs; point is that I can do so and one isolated in a monastery has no access to do so. So how may such practices be called "the same"?

A person in a monastery cannot eat hot dogs because the monastery is not likely to have them to serve at refectory, not because monastic Orthodoxy and parish Orthodoxy are two entirely different things.  There is no separate Liturgy or Vespers/Matins or fasting rules or Ten Commandments or sacraments or anything else for monks and for laity.  All of us have these things in common, but in matters which allow variation, some are more strict than others.  That is all.  It's not two separate religions.       
Thank you for your explanation. It is appreciated.
Of course you understand more than I. If i don't go to a service or two or even several I am accountable to no one, whereas a person in a Monestary must justify them self to another. And the hours and frequencies  of their services are a bit off from those out here in the world, no?
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Re: Lent: Prayer, Fast and Abstinence......
« Reply #74 on: February 22, 2015, 12:46:56 AM »
If i don't go to a service or two or even several I am accountable to no one, whereas a person in a Monestary must justify them self to another.

Everyone is accountable to someone.  Even if it's only God. 

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And the hours and frequencies  of their services are a bit off from those out here in the world, no?

Depends. 
OC.NET is full of temptations, but in temptations we are enforced, remember about the thread "Temptation in the Desert: Rachel Weisz and the Undoing of Mor Ephrem". OC.NET helps in becoming unpassionate.

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