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Offline Dan-Romania

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"whoever has will be given more and they will have an abundance whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken away"

What is the meaning of this words ? And also of the End of the parable of the talents(bags of gold)?

i.e Matthew 25 24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 02:54:21 PM by Dan-Romania »
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Offline Fabio Leite

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"whoever has will be given more and they will have an abundance whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken away"

What is the meaning of this words ? And also of the End of the parable of the talents(bags of gold)?

i.e Matthew 25 24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

God's common sense. One who treats well the "small" gifts and responsibilities that He gives will entrusted with larger gifts and their corresponding responsibilities. Compare with St. Paul admonition that before being a bishop a man should have already proved himself as a responsible and faithfful caretaker by having had a family. That's the idea.
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline Dan-Romania

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"whoever has will be given more and they will have an abundance whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken away"

What is the meaning of this words ? And also of the End of the parable of the talents(bags of gold)?

i.e Matthew 25 24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

God's common sense. One who treats well the "small" gifts and responsibilities that He gives will entrusted with larger gifts and their corresponding responsibilities. Compare with St. Paul admonition that before being a bishop a man should have already proved himself as a responsible and faithfful caretaker by having had a family. That's the idea.

The key verse that I would like discussing which seems to dismiss your interpretation is: "whoever has will be given more and they will have an abundance whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken away" ... besides that one , even what is meant by "put my money to my exchangers" and the other stuff that I highlined in this thread.
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Offline Fabio Leite

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"whoever has will be given more and they will have an abundance whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken away"

What is the meaning of this words ? And also of the End of the parable of the talents(bags of gold)?

i.e Matthew 25 24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

God's common sense. One who treats well the "small" gifts and responsibilities that He gives will entrusted with larger gifts and their corresponding responsibilities. Compare with St. Paul admonition that before being a bishop a man should have already proved himself as a responsible and faithfful caretaker by having had a family. That's the idea.

The key verse that I would like discussing which seems to dismiss your interpretation is: "whoever has will be given more and they will have an abundance whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken away" ... besides that one , even what is meant by "put my money to my exchangers" and the other stuff that I highlined in this thread.

That's what I am talking about. Whoever has already some gifts of grace (discernment, wisdom, love, faith) will receive an abundance more (maybe miracle working, prophecies, holiness).

The talents refer both to how things actually work in terms of prosperity and uses it to talk about the "talents of heaven", the many forms and intensities of Grace.
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline Dan-Romania

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"whoever has will be given more and they will have an abundance whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken away"

What is the meaning of this words ? And also of the End of the parable of the talents(bags of gold)?

i.e Matthew 25 24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

God's common sense. One who treats well the "small" gifts and responsibilities that He gives will entrusted with larger gifts and their corresponding responsibilities. Compare with St. Paul admonition that before being a bishop a man should have already proved himself as a responsible and faithfful caretaker by having had a family. That's the idea.

The key verse that I would like discussing which seems to dismiss your interpretation is: "whoever has will be given more and they will have an abundance whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken away" ... besides that one , even what is meant by "put my money to my exchangers" and the other stuff that I highlined in this thread.

That's what I am talking about. Whoever has already some gifts of grace (discernment, wisdom, love, faith) will receive an abundance more (maybe miracle working, prophecies, holiness).

The talents refer both to how things actually work in terms of prosperity and uses it to talk about the "talents of heaven", the many forms and intensities of Grace.

I don't care so much what the talents mean but what does ""whoever has will be given more and they will have an abundance whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken away" means.. Parable or not, those words stay fix. That's what i'm stressing upon. How is that related to fairness?
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Offline Fabio Leite

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"whoever has will be given more and they will have an abundance whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken away"

What is the meaning of this words ? And also of the End of the parable of the talents(bags of gold)?

i.e Matthew 25 24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

God's common sense. One who treats well the "small" gifts and responsibilities that He gives will entrusted with larger gifts and their corresponding responsibilities. Compare with St. Paul admonition that before being a bishop a man should have already proved himself as a responsible and faithfful caretaker by having had a family. That's the idea.

The key verse that I would like discussing which seems to dismiss your interpretation is: "whoever has will be given more and they will have an abundance whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken away" ... besides that one , even what is meant by "put my money to my exchangers" and the other stuff that I highlined in this thread.

That's what I am talking about. Whoever has already some gifts of grace (discernment, wisdom, love, faith) will receive an abundance more (maybe miracle working, prophecies, holiness).

The talents refer both to how things actually work in terms of prosperity and uses it to talk about the "talents of heaven", the many forms and intensities of Grace.

I don't care so much what the talents mean but what does ""whoever has will be given more and they will have an abundance whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken away" means.. Parable or not, those words stay fix. That's what i'm stressing upon. How is that related to fairness?

It's totally fair. Put yourself in the place of the investor. One fund manager consistently turns you profits of 100% over an year, the other systematically loses everything you leave with him and even gives you a debt around 50% of what you had entrusted him.

Who would it be fair to give a larger amount in the next round of investment? If you still had some money with the second fund manager wouldn't you take it from him to avoid the risk of loosing it? Wouldn't you give it to the first manager who has proven himself?

Or from a more prosaic perspective.. do you hava a favorite restaurant or coffe shop? One that you go more times a year than any other? Why do you go there more often? Was it not because in their first times they gained your trust with something you appreciate? Maybe price, maybe taste, maybe healthiness, maybe the atmosphere. They had a few hours, a few tries and because they did well you rewarded them with going there again and again. They received an "abundance" of your time, money and maybe even special moments. You recommended it, took friends, relatives.

On the other hand, think of that awful place you never went back. They had just an hour or so to please you but failed so miserably that you *never* went back. And depending on how horrible they were, you would even ask your money back if you could. You told everybody how horrible it was (according to researches probably to far more people than the ones you said good things about the first restaurant)."The little they had" you would have taken away from them.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 03:38:29 PM by Fabio Leite »
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline Dan-Romania

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I am not here to discuss other parables in parables or for the parable...

but why take from the one who doesn't have even what he has?
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Offline Dan-Romania

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I am not here to discuss other parables in parables or for the parable...

but why take from the one who doesn't have even what he has?
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Offline Fabio Leite

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I am not here to discuss other parables in parables or for the parable...

but why take from the one who doesn't have even what he has?

Because he is a bad investor who would lose money that could multiply in the hands of the good investor.

The men in the parable are not destituted poor people, but *professionals* who had been entrusted a professional responsibility as investors.

The bad investor is guilty of what is called "criminal incompetence", just like when someone sets out to do a surgery he is not able of and the patient dies. Likewise, if I accept responsibility for someone else's money, it is my duty to, at the very least, not lose it all and seek maximum profit. If you give me money, not as charity, but counting on my professional competence to multiply it, and I deal with it in a particularly incompetent way, it is unfair with the competent managers that you do not trust them more, that you insist on giving me money, and overall it's bad for everybody that hard-earned money is just being burned.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 04:01:16 PM by Fabio Leite »
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline Porter ODoran

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The only reason the parable has come to seem offensive is that it became popular during the colonial era to treat this and similar parables as tho they were not allegorical and as tho they could justify the rampant devilish thievery abroad and (with the new so-called capitalism) at home. In other words, what Sr. Leite's posts here so avidly hope to regress to.

In truth, the parable uses allegory to describe a simple psychical fact: that a little trust or a little doubt, that a little bad habit or a little good habit, that a little hate or a little love contain an exponential potential -- that a little impetus sends us soaring far beyond what we could have calculated, for good or ill -- that the incorruptible adds itself to the corruptible with invisible reverberations beyond what "we could ever ask or think." The parable is a dramatic extrapolation of the principle of the mustard seed, of the little leaven in the lump, of the single small pearl of great price. When all seems impossible, one step in faith or one fruit from humility can suddenly open for us possibilities all the way to heaven. Unfortunately, the opposite is also true, and a life that seemed serene can become unlivable soon after small passions or doubts are nurtured.

This is the power of the spiritual world, which is exponential compared to our own. In heaven, at judgment, its nature will be clearly apparent, and we will be shown that it has also been the invisible real nature of things here below all along.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Fabio Leite

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The only reason the parable has come to seem offensive is that it became popular during the colonial era to treat this and similar parables as tho they were not allegorical and as tho they could justify the rampant devilish thievery abroad and (with the new so-called capitalism) at home. In other words, what Sr. Leite's posts here so avidly hope to regress to.

In truth, the parable uses allegory to describe a simple psychical fact: that a little trust or a little doubt, that a little bad habit or a little good habit, that a little hate or a little love contain an exponential potential -- that a little impetus sends us soaring far beyond what we could have calculated, for good or ill -- that the incorruptible adds itself to the corruptible with invisible reverberations beyond what "we could ever ask or think." The parable is a dramatic extrapolation of the principle of the mustard seed, of the little leaven in the lump, of the single small pearl of great price. When all seems impossible, one step in faith or one fruit from humility can suddenly open for us possibilities all the way to heaven. Unfortunately, the opposite is also true, and a life that seemed serene can become unlivable soon after small passions or doubts are nurtured.

This is the power of the spiritual world, which is exponential compared to our own. In heaven, at judgment, its nature will be clearly apparent, and we will be shown that it has also been the invisible real nature of things here below all along.


Trust, credit, faith... it's all the same thing applied to different aspects of life. The reason why it works in the finance sector is the same.

And that it relates to finance is not a later addition, the parable itself talks about banks, setting it firmly in the "capitalist"(aka natural laws created by God as applied in economy) imagery.
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Probably the most remarkable, if a not very important, example of this tendency of some to treat the parables as tho they are not allegories was a preacher who commented on recent landslides in the Portland rains (several houses were buried in mud) with the admonition that architects should have spent more time on our Lord's instruction to build on rock.

We can (I hope) laugh at that preacher, but we are likelier to be horrified by the misuse of other parables -- Are we to accept that usurers, destroyers of cities (another parable), or professional torturers (yet another parable), or other sons of Belial are being held up by our Lord as inheritors of the Kingdom of heaven? God rebuke those who imply this; we know the opposite is true. The parables were dramatic tales that comprised an allegorical truth about the spiritual world that only they with "ears to hear" could understand -- yes, the Evangelists tell us that almost no one who heard them understood them.

Let's bear that in mind and take it as a warning for ourselves and our own gross ears.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 04:20:43 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Fabio Leite

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An usurer pretends to lend. A professional credit lender *rents* money, just like some people rent houses and "interests" are just that: rent.

Banks today do a mix of usury with proper honest money renting.

But that's beside the point. My very first point was about the more spiritual meaning of the parable and Dan-Romania requested to go deeper into the inner logic of why it is fair to take from those who misuse to those who excell in the use of something. And I'm sure you haven't been paying for restaurants with bad food or service and have been going  and recommending more the ones you like the most, maybe even paying a bit more for the something special they might offer you. You, evil capitalist, you. ;)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 04:26:22 PM by Fabio Leite »
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline Porter ODoran

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"Usury" is the archaic word for "interest."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Dan-Romania

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I am not here to discuss other parables in parables or for the parable...

but why take from the one who doesn't have even what he has?

Because he is a bad investor who would lose money that could multiply in the hands of the good investor.

The men in the parable are not destituted poor people, but *professionals* who had been entrusted a professional responsibility as investors.

The bad investor is guilty of what is called "criminal incompetence", just like when someone sets out to do a surgery he is not able of and the patient dies. Likewise, if I accept responsibility for someone else's money, it is my duty to, at the very least, not lose it all and seek maximum profit. If you give me money, not as charity, but counting on my professional competence to multiply it, and I deal with it in a particularly incompetent way, it is unfair with the competent managers that you do not trust them more, that you insist on giving me money, and overall it's bad for everybody that hard-earned money is just being burned.

Not working :)... When dealing with religion I try to dismiss approximations as they always proved to be false.As a self considering high in spiritual understandings I ask you to verify your interpretation with all the details from the text and the parable, I will not try to get tired to explain that here, as that is not why I opened this thread.
 
There is no greater poverty in this world than being cast out in hell or the outer darkness where the gnashing of teeth is, which is how the parable finalises. It's not about some professionals losing a job but about much more sensitive ontological problems. So please treat them with much more sensitivity and delicateness as I think that is the correct measurement to be attributed to such delicate issues, without bending or loosing or approximating.

Nevertheless I am grateful and thankful to you for your reply and everyone's who will and desire to participate to this thread and encourage you and everyone to further participate.
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Offline Fabio Leite

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I am not here to discuss other parables in parables or for the parable...

but why take from the one who doesn't have even what he has?

Because he is a bad investor who would lose money that could multiply in the hands of the good investor.

The men in the parable are not destituted poor people, but *professionals* who had been entrusted a professional responsibility as investors.

The bad investor is guilty of what is called "criminal incompetence", just like when someone sets out to do a surgery he is not able of and the patient dies. Likewise, if I accept responsibility for someone else's money, it is my duty to, at the very least, not lose it all and seek maximum profit. If you give me money, not as charity, but counting on my professional competence to multiply it, and I deal with it in a particularly incompetent way, it is unfair with the competent managers that you do not trust them more, that you insist on giving me money, and overall it's bad for everybody that hard-earned money is just being burned.

Not working :)... When dealing with religion I try to dismiss approximations as they always proved to be false.As a self considering high in spiritual understandings I ask you to verify your interpretation with all the details from the text and the parable, I will not try to get tired to explain that here, as that is not why I opened this thread.
 
There is no greater poverty in this world than being cast out in hell or the outer darkness where the gnashing of teeth is, which is how the parable finalises. It's not about some professionals losing a job but about much more sensitive ontological problems. So please treat them with much more sensitivity and delicateness as I think that is the correct measurement to be attributed to such delicate issues, without bending or loosing or approximating.

Nevertheless I am grateful and thankful to you for your reply and everyone's who will and desire to participate to this thread and encourage you and everyone to further participate.


The professional imagery was chosen by God, it's a narrative icon. One thing does not contradict the other, they complement. I think that you guys are being a bit overreactive about the fact God does not seem to see profit and justice as a contradiction with mercy. :) Anyway, what you are saying is in the same direction of what I said in my first post.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 04:48:52 PM by Fabio Leite »
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline Dan-Romania

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I am not here to discuss other parables in parables or for the parable...

but why take from the one who doesn't have even what he has?

Because he is a bad investor who would lose money that could multiply in the hands of the good investor.

The men in the parable are not destituted poor people, but *professionals* who had been entrusted a professional responsibility as investors.

The bad investor is guilty of what is called "criminal incompetence", just like when someone sets out to do a surgery he is not able of and the patient dies. Likewise, if I accept responsibility for someone else's money, it is my duty to, at the very least, not lose it all and seek maximum profit. If you give me money, not as charity, but counting on my professional competence to multiply it, and I deal with it in a particularly incompetent way, it is unfair with the competent managers that you do not trust them more, that you insist on giving me money, and overall it's bad for everybody that hard-earned money is just being burned.

Not working :)... When dealing with religion I try to dismiss approximations as they always proved to be false.As a self considering high in spiritual understandings I ask you to verify your interpretation with all the details from the text and the parable, I will not try to get tired to explain that here, as that is not why I opened this thread.
 
There is no greater poverty in this world than being cast out in hell or the outer darkness where the gnashing of teeth is, which is how the parable finalises. It's not about some professionals losing a job but about much more sensitive ontological problems. So please treat them with much more sensitivity and delicateness as I think that is the correct measurement to be attributed to such delicate issues, without bending or loosing or approximating.

Nevertheless I am grateful and thankful to you for your reply and everyone's who will and desire to participate to this thread and encourage you and everyone to further participate.


The professional imagery was chosen by God, it's a narrative icon. One thing does not contradict the other, they complement. I think that you guys are being a bit overreactive about the fact God does not seem to see profit and justice as a contradiction with mercy. :) Anyway, what you are saying is in the same direction of what I said in my first post.

crap :)
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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I am not here to discuss other parables in parables or for the parable...

but why take from the one who doesn't have even what he has?

Because he is a bad investor who would lose money that could multiply in the hands of the good investor.

The men in the parable are not destituted poor people, but *professionals* who had been entrusted a professional responsibility as investors.

The bad investor is guilty of what is called "criminal incompetence", just like when someone sets out to do a surgery he is not able of and the patient dies. Likewise, if I accept responsibility for someone else's money, it is my duty to, at the very least, not lose it all and seek maximum profit. If you give me money, not as charity, but counting on my professional competence to multiply it, and I deal with it in a particularly incompetent way, it is unfair with the competent managers that you do not trust them more, that you insist on giving me money, and overall it's bad for everybody that hard-earned money is just being burned.

Not working :)... When dealing with religion I try to dismiss approximations as they always proved to be false.As a self considering high in spiritual understandings I ask you to verify your interpretation with all the details from the text and the parable, I will not try to get tired to explain that here, as that is not why I opened this thread.
 
There is no greater poverty in this world than being cast out in hell or the outer darkness where the gnashing of teeth is, which is how the parable finalises. It's not about some professionals losing a job but about much more sensitive ontological problems. So please treat them with much more sensitivity and delicateness as I think that is the correct measurement to be attributed to such delicate issues, without bending or loosing or approximating.

Nevertheless I am grateful and thankful to you for your reply and everyone's who will and desire to participate to this thread and encourage you and everyone to further participate.


The professional imagery was chosen by God, it's a narrative icon. One thing does not contradict the other, they complement. I think that you guys are being a bit overreactive about the fact God does not seem to see profit and justice as a contradiction with mercy. :) Anyway, what you are saying is in the same direction of what I said in my first post.

crap :)

Troll.  :)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 06:05:54 PM by Mor Ephrem »
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Offline Volnutt

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According to St. John Chrysostom, the talents are gifts of teaching, helps, prophecies, etc. The same thing we find in 1 Corinthians. St. John also seems to include as talents our natural human talents of intelligence, strength, etc.

So, for example, if one is faithful in teaching a Sunday school class, he might eventually find himself as professor at a seminary. Or if one is faithful in the diaconate, he might someday wind a bishop (the parable is actually quoted in the ceremony for ordination to the diaconate). These aren't the examples St. John uses, he just speaks in general terms.

But if God gives you a gift, He expects you to use it for His glory and the building up of the brethren. But if you waste your gift (burying it) on a life of misuse and wind up in Hell through your disobedience and squandering of God's mercy, then as you say, that's the ultimate in poverty. People in Hell don't have gifts.

Now, as for "I had heard you were a hard man..." and "you could at least have put my money in the banks..." St. John doesn't speak on these elements. I would note though, that not everything in an allegory must be one-to-one. Some things are just part of crafting a narrative that works. I mean, obviously God isn't really going anywhere on a "journey." That's just a way to refer to God's providential forbearance within the human context of the parable. I'm always reminded of Flannery O'Connor's response to somebody asking about the significance of the Misfit's hat in A Good Man is Hard to Find, "It's to keep his head dry."

Maybe "I had heard you were a hard man..." refers to believing lies told about God's character. Believing such about God would certainly encourage someone to cease being faithful. Beyond that, though, I think Jesus is just referring to common features of the business world as known to his audience in order to make the parable work as narrative.

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For this end God gave us speech, and hands, and feet, and strength of body, and mind, and understanding, that we might use all these things, both for our own salvation, and for our neighbor’s advantage. For not for hymns only and thanksgivings is our speech serviceable to us, but it is profitable also for instruction and admonition. And if indeed we used it to this end, we should be imitating our Master; but if for the opposite ends, the devil. Since Peter also, when he confessed the Christ, was blessed, as having spoken the words of the Father; but when he refused the cross, and dissuaded it, he was severely reproved, as savoring the things of the devil. But if where the saying was of ignorance, so heavy is the blame, when we of our own will commit many sins, what favor shall we have?- St. John Chrysostom

The passage is long but it has a lot of good stuff in it about obedience and God's mercy http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.LXXV.html
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Dan-Romania

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According to St. John Chrysostom, the talents are gifts of teaching, helps, prophecies, etc. The same thing we find in 1 Corinthians. St. John also seems to include as talents our natural human talents of intelligence, strength, etc.

So, for example, if one is faithful in teaching a Sunday school class, he might eventually find himself as professor at a seminary. Or if one is faithful in the diaconate, he might someday wind a bishop (the parable is actually quoted in the ceremony for ordination to the diaconate). These aren't the examples St. John uses, he just speaks in general terms.

But if God gives you a gift, He expects you to use it for His glory and the building up of the brethren. But if you waste your gift (burying it) on a life of misuse and wind up in Hell through your disobedience and squandering of God's mercy, then as you say, that's the ultimate in poverty. People in Hell don't have gifts.

Now, as for "I had heard you were a hard man..." and "you could at least have put my money in the banks..." St. John doesn't speak on these elements. I would note though, that not everything in an allegory must be one-to-one. Some things are just part of crafting a narrative that works. I mean, obviously God isn't really going anywhere on a "journey." That's just a way to refer to God's providential forbearance within the human context of the parable. I'm always reminded of Flannery O'Connor's response to somebody asking about the significance of the Misfit's hat in A Good Man is Hard to Find, "It's to keep his head dry."

Maybe "I had heard you were a hard man..." refers to believing lies told about God's character. Believing such about God would certainly encourage someone to cease being faithful. Beyond that, though, I think Jesus is just referring to common features of the business world as known to his audience in order to make the parable work as narrative.

Quote
For this end God gave us speech, and hands, and feet, and strength of body, and mind, and understanding, that we might use all these things, both for our own salvation, and for our neighbor’s advantage. For not for hymns only and thanksgivings is our speech serviceable to us, but it is profitable also for instruction and admonition. And if indeed we used it to this end, we should be imitating our Master; but if for the opposite ends, the devil. Since Peter also, when he confessed the Christ, was blessed, as having spoken the words of the Father; but when he refused the cross, and dissuaded it, he was severely reproved, as savoring the things of the devil. But if where the saying was of ignorance, so heavy is the blame, when we of our own will commit many sins, what favor shall we have?- St. John Chrysostom

The passage is long but it has a lot of good stuff in it about obedience and God's mercy http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.LXXV.html

why doesn't the man(God) in the parable deny he is a hard man to the guy with one talent? yet he makes the petition for him to put the money to the exchangers.. what does that mean? and then he says to whomsoever it has it shall be given for abundance but to whomsoever it has not it will be taken even what he has. it this last verses, in the end of the parable hangs the interpretation of the whole parable which some of you guys treat superficially.
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Offline Volnutt

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why doesn't the man(God) in the parable deny he is a hard man to the guy with one talent?

Why does it matter? There isn't anywhere that God does not sow so the implied dishonesty does not even apply to Him.

yet he makes the petition for him to put the money to the exchangers.. what does that mean?

I don't know. My guess it that it was just a device to stop somebody in the audience from asking. Like I said, sometimes allegories contain details that have nothing to do with something in the real world, just because it makes the story work better.

and then he says to whomsoever it has it shall be given for abundance but to whomsoever it has not it will be taken even what he has. it this last verses, in the end of the parable hangs the interpretation of the whole parable which some of you guys treat superficially.

I wasn't treating it superficially. The point of the parable is that squandering what God gives you, walking in disobedience, leads to Hell.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Dan-Romania

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why doesn't the man(God) in the parable deny he is a hard man to the guy with one talent?

Why does it matter? There isn't anywhere that God does not sow so the implied dishonesty does not even apply to Him.

yet he makes the petition for him to put the money to the exchangers.. what does that mean?

I don't know. My guess it that it was just a device to stop somebody in the audience from asking. Like I said, sometimes allegories contain details that have nothing to do with something in the real world, just because it makes the story work better.

and then he says to whomsoever it has it shall be given for abundance but to whomsoever it has not it will be taken even what he has. it this last verses, in the end of the parable hangs the interpretation of the whole parable which some of you guys treat superficially.

I wasn't treating it superficially. The point of the parable is that squandering what God gives you, walking in disobedience, leads to Hell.

you treat the end superficiously..

your guys interpretation of this parable is at the level of a 12 year old.
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Offline Volnutt

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Ok, then enlighten us with your oh so mature interpretation, Sensei.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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why doesn't the man(God) in the parable deny he is a hard man to the guy with one talent?

Why does it matter? There isn't anywhere that God does not sow so the implied dishonesty does not even apply to Him.

yet he makes the petition for him to put the money to the exchangers.. what does that mean?

I don't know. My guess it that it was just a device to stop somebody in the audience from asking. Like I said, sometimes allegories contain details that have nothing to do with something in the real world, just because it makes the story work better.

and then he says to whomsoever it has it shall be given for abundance but to whomsoever it has not it will be taken even what he has. it this last verses, in the end of the parable hangs the interpretation of the whole parable which some of you guys treat superficially.

I wasn't treating it superficially. The point of the parable is that squandering what God gives you, walking in disobedience, leads to Hell.

you treat the end superficiously..

your guys interpretation of this parable is at the level of a 12 year old.

maybe... just maybe the parable is setup like it is to be simple enough for a 12 year old to understand?

I remember myself loving this parable as a child. it spoke to me because i understood it.

Quote from: Mark 10:14-16King James Version (KJV)

14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

16 And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 08:56:15 AM by Joha »
Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ
Psalm 57:2 I will cry out to God Most High, To God who performs all things for me.
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Offline Dan-Romania

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Ok, then enlighten us with your oh so mature interpretation, Sensei.

I don't have one.. I just know that yours(pl) is erratic. As one who in the past used to read the fathers a lot, I read it enough to understand that the fathers when dealing with the parables, treat them extremely seriously, not dealing only with phrases but with single words. Meanwhile you(pl) skip entire phrases and treat them superfluous. So your(pl) eschatology is clearly defective.
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Offline Volnutt

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Then why did you completely ignore it when I linked you to what St. John Chrysostom says about it (who, by the way, does not analyze the parable word by word and doesn't even talk about the parts you're hung up on)?  ::)
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Then why did you completely ignore it when I linked you to what St. John Chrysostom says about it (who, by the way, does not analyze the parable word by word and doesn't even talk about the parts you're hung up on)?  ::)
[/b]

that's why..
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Offline Volnutt

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You said the Church Fathers all analyze prayers word by word. That doesn't seem to be the case. If you're so versed in them, then why are you even asking the forum anyway?
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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You said the Church Fathers all analyze prayers word by word. That doesn't seem to be the case. If you're so versed in them, then why are you even asking the forum anyway?

because those days are gone, and i never had this parable answered
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Offline Volnutt

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St.Theophylact:


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But he who buries the talent is he who cares only for his own benefit and not for that of others, and he is condemned. But if you should see an intelligent and skilled man misusing his intelligence in various pursuits, in deceitfulness, and in earthly affairs, you may say that such a man has buried his talent in the earth, that is, in earthly matters. But after a long time he who bestowed the silver talent returns. The silver talent may be in the form of a silver tongue, the gift of eloquence, for the eloquence of God is as silver that is tried by fire. Or, the silver talent may be any gift that makes one brilliant and glorious. He comes and demands a reckoning from those who received.

St. Theophylact goes on to say that God sows where He did not reap in that He did not create obedience in us but rather gave us free will so we can obey on our own. The servant is just making excuses for himself when he calls his master "hard," just as a lazy student does when he says his teacher is too severe. God demands of us, but not more than we can handle.

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Christ calls disciples "bankers," for both exactly account for that which has been delivered to them. What is the increase which He requires of the disciples? The showing of works transacted. For the disciple who receives the word from the teacher, must keep the word and give it back in its entirety; but the disciple also adds to it the interest, which is the doing of good. So God takes the gift away from that wicked and slothful servant. He who has received a gift by which to benefit others, and does not so use it, forfeits the gift itself. Do you see that he who applies the greater diligence draws to himself the greater gift? To him who has the greater diligence, more grace will be given and in abundance. But from him who is not diligent, even the gift which he thinks he has will be taken away. For he who is not diligent and does not work and trade with what he has received, does not have the gift, but only appears to have it. For he has blotted it out by his neglect.

Origen's commentary on the parable doesn't make a lot of sense to me but it seems like he's basically saying that the unprofitable servant is unbelievers in general and perhaps unbelieving Jews in particular (and again, nothing about what the bankers are, etc). Section 12

St. Augustine:


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1. My lords, my brethren, and fellow bishops have deigned to visit us and gladden us by their presence; but I know not why they are unwilling to assist me, when wearied. I have said this to you, Beloved, in their hearing, that your hearing may in a manner intercede for me with them, that when I ask them they also may discourse unto you in their turn. Let them dispense what they have received, let them vouchsafe to work rather than excuse themselves. Be pleased, however, to hear from me, fatigued though I be and have difficulty in speaking, a few words only. For we have besides a record of God’s mercies vouchsafed through a holy Martyr, which we must give willing audience to altogether.1 What is it then? what shall I say unto you? Ye have heard in the Gospel both the due recompense of the good servants, and the punishment of the bad. And the whole wickedness of that servant who was reprobate and severely condemned, was that he would not put out his money to use. He kept the entire sum he had received; but the Lord looked for profit from it. God is coveteous with regard to our salvation. If he who did not put out to use is so condemned, what must they look for who lose what they have received? We then are the dispensers, we put out, ye receive. We look for profit; do ye live well. For this is the profit in our dealings with you. But do not think that this office of putting out to use does not belong to you also. Ye cannot execute it indeed from this elevated seat, but ye can wherever ye chance to be. Wherever Christ is attacked, defend Him; answer murmurers, rebuke blasphemers, from their fellowship keep yourselves apart. So do ye put out to use, if ye make gain of any. Discharge our office in your own houses. A bishop is called from hence, because he super-intends, because he takes care and attends to others. To every man then, if he is the head of his own house, ought the office of the Episcopate to belong, to take care how his household believe, that none of them fall into heresy, neither wife, nor son, nor daughter, nor even his slave, because he has been bought at so great a price. The Apostolic teaching has set the master over the slave, and put the slave under the master; nevertheless Christ gave the same price for both. Do not neglect then the least of those belonging to you, look after the salvation of all your household with all vigilance. This if ye do, ye put out to use; ye will not be slothful servants, ye will not have to fear so horrible a condemnation.

St. Hilary of Poitiers:
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The servant to whom this treasure was delivered, is allegorically explained of the faithful adorers of God, in the Jewish law, who departing from it, became followers of Christ, and therefore deserving of a double recompense. ... The servant to whom the two talents were delivered, is understood of the Gentiles, who were justified in the faith and confession of the Father and the Son, and confessed our Lord Jesus Christ, God and man, composed of body and soul; and as the people of the Jews doubled the five talents they received, so the Gentiles, by the duplication of their two talents, merited a double recompense also. ... But the servant who received only one talent, and hid it in the ground, represented such of the Jews as persisted in the observation of the old law, and thus kept their talent buried in the ground, for fear the Gentiles should be converted.

That and other Patristic snippets here That's all I can find for free online.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 12:08:26 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Some things are just part of crafting a narrative that works. I mean, obviously God isn't really going anywhere on a "journey." That's just a way to refer to God's providential forbearance within the human context of the parable.

No, the king is not traveling from forbearance, in the parable. The point is that Christ the King will return in the last Day.

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Maybe "I had heard you were a hard man..." refers to believing lies told about God's character. Believing such about God would certainly encourage someone to cease being faithful. Beyond that, though, I think Jesus is just referring to common features of the business world as known to his audience in order to make the parable work as narrative.

God is the most powerful of masters. His judgments against whole nations are (well, were) well known. Fear of God is not based on a lie. No, the man who buried his money was afraid to err. He was afraid to sin, in the true sense of sin as failure. As such, he restrained himself and his actions, perhaps even ascetically restrained himself (the audience must have been put in mind of Pharisaism). The parable teaches us that the wise reaction for one so limited and afraid (and aren't we all? we the chief sinner) is to do what we can and trust to that other aspect of God, helper and savior. The parable backhandedly reassures us that that poor man had a chance to please God even with his least. That the least movement of trust on our part yields ten or a hundredfold by the mystical co-energy of God in us. The parable is dramatic and is painted in the lurid light of usury, monarchy, and war, but its meaning is not just warning but a teaching of reassurance and hope for men at all levels of spiritual ability and in any kind of spiritual experience.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 12:15:28 AM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Offline Dan-Romania

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I think this all comes down to how God sees us and the interrelation between us and God. Does he see us like an employer sees his employees? Does God have an entrepreneuric mind? There are various things that raise question. For example why doesn't he disperse the equal amount of talents to all? Or does the 'number' of talents have a numerologic value? Are the talents birth given or not?

There are clearly people who believe God sows from where he does not reap and reaps from where he does not sow, and many times in life this appears to be true, even some bone fide Christians or people who find themselves in an advantage or think they are better than everyone else. I am an Europeean and this belief is prominent in Europeean countries. Europe is a very nationalistic continent. The majority of the countries think they are better than everybody else, and so on. So what is the significance of this? Where do all talents come from? Does everybody receive talents ? Do some receive less? Are some deemed to fail, like guys with "one talent"? Is that like always the case? Is that an archetype? How does one know he has received a certain talent and how is he supposed to use it? Is it suffering in his life as long as he does not use and guaranteed happiness as long as he uses it? How does one discover his talent? But there are also people who are at the other end of the scale. For whom God reaps from where he does not sow.. To whom only unfair things and unfair situations occur, only misery, unhappiness saying that God is a "hard man". People who strive to be good and fair, and just but all the things mention in the previous phrase occurs to them. They do good and bad happens to them. So what is the meaning of that? Do those people err somewhere? Are those the one with one talent? Are they deem to be like that? Is it there problem that they are not doing that with their talent? I.e not doing what they are best at, to excel? As good looks for champions and athletes? Where does all this lead to? How does one keep his earn? I am thinking now of athletes. There were athletes who were number one in excellence for years and after that they felt on an incredible downtrend even unto anonymity.

And does God(the man in the parable) not refute the man with one talent who says "Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strewed" ? More is it God's taking from the one who has little and giving to the one who has too much and enforcement of his belief? Why does he say "whoever has will be given more and they will have an abundance whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken away" and what does it mean?
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Offline Dan-Romania

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I think this all comes down to how God sees us and the interrelation between us and God. Does he see us like an employer sees his employees? Does God have an entrepreneuric mind? There are various things that raise question. For example why doesn't he disperse the equal amount of talents to all? Or does the 'number' of talents have a numerologic value? Are the talents birth given or not?

There are clearly people who believe God sows from where he does not reap and reaps from where he does not sow, and many times in life this appears to be true, even some bone fide Christians or people who find themselves in an advantage or think they are better than everyone else. I am an Europeean and this belief is prominent in Europeean countries. Europe is a very nationalistic continent. The majority of the countries think they are better than everybody else, and so on. So what is the significance of this? Where do all talents come from? Does everybody receive talents ? Do some receive less? Are some deemed to fail, like guys with "one talent"? Is that like always the case? Is that an archetype? How does one know he has received a certain talent and how is he supposed to use it? Is it suffering in his life as long as he does not use and guaranteed happiness as long as he uses it? How does one discover his talent? But there are also people who are at the other end of the scale. For whom God reaps from where he does not sow.. To whom only unfair things and unfair situations occur, only misery, unhappiness saying that God is a "hard man". People who strive to be good and fair, and just but all the things mention in the previous phrase occurs to them. They do good and bad happens to them. So what is the meaning of that? Do those people err somewhere? Are those the one with one talent? Are they deem to be like that? Is it there problem that they are not doing that with their talent? I.e not doing what they are best at, to excel? As good looks for champions and athletes? Where does all this lead to? How does one keep his earn? I am thinking now of athletes. There were athletes who were number one in excellence for years and after that they felt on an incredible downtrend even unto anonymity.

And does God(the man in the parable) not refute the man with one talent who says "Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strewed" ? More is it God's taking from the one who has little and giving to the one who has too much and enforcement of his belief? Why does he say "whoever has will be given more and they will have an abundance whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken away" and what does it mean?

Let it there where I bolded it be read God instead of good.
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Offline mabsoota

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i can only explain it simply, so look elsewhere for complexity.

when Jesus says 'even what he has will be taken away', it refers to the man's life.
so we are given certain abilities and situations and in this life, our job is to increase our spiritual wealth.
it is nothing to do with physical wealth.

so someone who has little has a chance to bring more riches in to the world by his smiles and his prayers, even if he is not capable of doing more.
so God will reward him as he accepted the gift (life) from God and used his life to bring God's spiritual treasures to those around him,
even if he was not great at being a preacher, a leader or even if he was not a very sociable, he put to work the little he had.

on the other hand, someone who is mean, will not happily embrace life. he will think 'what's the point in living a good life and believing in God?'
i'm going to die soon anyway (the master will require the gift to be returned), so i'll just hide myself away and wait for death
(much like the sort of depressing pop songs that radio stations always play after midnight) and that way i will prove to myself that God is mean!

people who are like that man instead need to come to God and keep asking Him to show them the way.
they need to be honest with Him and say 'God, i feel i have less than everyone else and it is not fair! do you really love me?
do you really think it's possible for me to achieve anything with the small amount i have?
are you sure you have not made a mistake?
or is there some small thing the you would like me to do which would be enough?
is it enough for me to make a start towards you? will you help me if i ask for it?'

because God loves you, and will keep reaching out to you for as long as you live.
and He really does know how long you need here on earth, as he knows your heart.

if you want something more complex, please read the link to saint john chrysostom's homilies as they are great!

Offline Dan-Romania

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I think this is one of the most complex parables in which all the bible and christian soteriology might be comprised.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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I love this post of yours about Life, Mabsoota.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline mabsoota

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it is copied from various priests i have met, and some of my reading of our dear saint john chrysostom.
i hope one day someone has time to translate his homilies into modern english, as the old english they are in is a bit hard to understand.

Offline Dan-Romania

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bump
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