Author Topic: Old Believers and Orthodoxy  (Read 38042 times)

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Offline wgw

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #360 on: April 24, 2015, 12:53:40 PM »
Minnesotan pretty much encapsulates my view of Kitezh.

Option number 1 just collapses into the "all our bishops are in Heaven now" argument.

Regardless, the belief in either is simply not an option for Orthodox believers. That is all I am going to say regarding this matter as it simply says it all.

Indeed, this seems to me the only reasonable position on the matter absent a clarification of the story from a saint like Seraphim of Sarov or John of Kronstadt.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline вєликаго

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #361 on: April 24, 2015, 05:34:40 PM »
I'm done here, find someone else to pretend your not insulting, and slandering.
You said you were leaving this forum a few weeks ago, yet now you're back. You want us to take you seriously when you say you're leaving? You'll be back, for you can't resist arguing with us.

I just have a concern for people who might come here and believe the libelous posts, and the insults, against the Orthodox faith (Old Believers). This thread has continued to be nothing more then plain mockery of the Truth. I'm back off again, I'm just leave this warning for the poor unsuspecting person -- may God help them.

However, your post its self is misleading, I asked for all my posts to be deleted as well as this account, however, I was denied this. Eventually, after I feel I've left enough warnings, God help me, I'll be fully done with this site.  I'm going this route since my posts will still be here, I fear that they could be used wrongly to lead people astray, unless I leave ample warnings.

Minnesotan pretty much encapsulates my view of Kitezh.

Option number 1 just collapses into the "all our bishops are in Heaven now" argument.

Regardless, the belief in either is simply not an option for Orthodox believers. That is all I am going to say regarding this matter as it simply says it all.

Indeed, this seems to me the only reasonable position on the matter absent a clarification of the story from a saint like Seraphim of Sarov or John of Kronstadt.

Even this post seems libelous to me, although it may not be, it is however fully false regardless.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 05:39:01 PM by вєликаго »
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #362 on: April 24, 2015, 05:56:06 PM »
I'm done here, find someone else to pretend your not insulting, and slandering.
You said you were leaving this forum a few weeks ago, yet now you're back. You want us to take you seriously when you say you're leaving? You'll be back, for you can't resist arguing with us.

I just have a concern for people who might come here and believe the libelous posts, and the insults, against the Orthodox faith (Old Believers). This thread has continued to be nothing more then plain mockery of the Truth. I'm back off again, I'm just leave this warning for the poor unsuspecting person -- may God help them.

However, your post its self is misleading, I asked for all my posts to be deleted as well as this account, however, I was denied this. Eventually, after I feel I've left enough warnings, God help me, I'll be fully done with this site.  I'm going this route since my posts will still be here, I fear that they could be used wrongly to lead people astray, unless I leave ample warnings.
That's not the problem, though. The problem is this: You come here telling us freely that our church is false, yet the moment someone says that your church is false, you cry that you're being libeled. Nobody can offer any kind of criticism of your positions or your church without you playing the libel card.

What I'm saying is NOT libel for the following reasons:
  • I'm not deliberately telling lies about you. I'm just speaking the truth as best I know it.
  • I'm not speaking maliciously. I'm just speaking honestly.
  • I'm not trying to defame your character. I'm just holding a mirror up in front of your face so you can see what you look like.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline вєликаго

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #363 on: April 24, 2015, 06:06:43 PM »
I'm done here, find someone else to pretend your not insulting, and slandering.
You said you were leaving this forum a few weeks ago, yet now you're back. You want us to take you seriously when you say you're leaving? You'll be back, for you can't resist arguing with us.

I just have a concern for people who might come here and believe the libelous posts, and the insults, against the Orthodox faith (Old Believers). This thread has continued to be nothing more then plain mockery of the Truth. I'm back off again, I'm just leave this warning for the poor unsuspecting person -- may God help them.

However, your post its self is misleading, I asked for all my posts to be deleted as well as this account, however, I was denied this. Eventually, after I feel I've left enough warnings, God help me, I'll be fully done with this site.  I'm going this route since my posts will still be here, I fear that they could be used wrongly to lead people astray, unless I leave ample warnings.
That's not the problem, though. The problem is this: You come here telling us freely that our church is false, yet the moment someone says that your church is false, you cry that you're being libeled. Nobody can offer any kind of criticism of your positions or your church without you playing the libel card.

What I'm saying is NOT libel for the following reasons:
  • I'm not deliberately telling lies about you. I'm just speaking the truth as best I know it.
  • I'm not speaking maliciously. I'm just speaking honestly.
  • I'm not trying to defame your character. I'm just holding a mirror up in front of your face so you can see what you look like.

I appeal to facts while the people using libel, use mockery and untruths.
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline wgw

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #364 on: April 24, 2015, 06:29:12 PM »
I'm done here, find someone else to pretend your not insulting, and slandering.
You said you were leaving this forum a few weeks ago, yet now you're back. You want us to take you seriously when you say you're leaving? You'll be back, for you can't resist arguing with us.

I just have a concern for people who might come here and believe the libelous posts, and the insults, against the Orthodox faith (Old Believers). This thread has continued to be nothing more then plain mockery of the Truth. I'm back off again, I'm just leave this warning for the poor unsuspecting person -- may God help them.

However, your post its self is misleading, I asked for all my posts to be deleted as well as this account, however, I was denied this. Eventually, after I feel I've left enough warnings, God help me, I'll be fully done with this site.  I'm going this route since my posts will still be here, I fear that they could be used wrongly to lead people astray, unless I leave ample warnings.
That's not the problem, though. The problem is this: You come here telling us freely that our church is false, yet the moment someone says that your church is false, you cry that you're being libeled. Nobody can offer any kind of criticism of your positions or your church without you playing the libel card.

What I'm saying is NOT libel for the following reasons:
  • I'm not deliberately telling lies about you. I'm just speaking the truth as best I know it.
  • I'm not speaking maliciously. I'm just speaking honestly.
  • I'm not trying to defame your character. I'm just holding a mirror up in front of your face so you can see what you look like.

I appeal to facts while the people using libel, use mockery and untruths.

No offense is intended by this, but please bear with me:

You denied my Orthodoxy because I don't believe in Kitezh.  I consider that libel.  But to you only statements which disagree with your position are libelous it seems; it comes across as belligerent hypocrisy to be frank, and I don't think you're doing anything to promote a positive image of the Old Believer movement.

I was deeply offended by your denial of my Orthodoxy and I do consider myself to have been libelled, since nowhere in the creeds or anywhere else do we see a belief in Kitzeh made a required article of faith.  How can you complain of us insulting you, when you insult us?  You insulted me in the most extreme manner possible by denying my Orthodox faith.  I am deeply hurt by it, although I forgive you as I don't believe you understand the impact of your words.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #365 on: April 24, 2015, 06:34:04 PM »
I'm done here, find someone else to pretend your not insulting, and slandering.
You said you were leaving this forum a few weeks ago, yet now you're back. You want us to take you seriously when you say you're leaving? You'll be back, for you can't resist arguing with us.

I just have a concern for people who might come here and believe the libelous posts, and the insults, against the Orthodox faith (Old Believers). This thread has continued to be nothing more then plain mockery of the Truth. I'm back off again, I'm just leave this warning for the poor unsuspecting person -- may God help them.

However, your post its self is misleading, I asked for all my posts to be deleted as well as this account, however, I was denied this. Eventually, after I feel I've left enough warnings, God help me, I'll be fully done with this site.  I'm going this route since my posts will still be here, I fear that they could be used wrongly to lead people astray, unless I leave ample warnings.
That's not the problem, though. The problem is this: You come here telling us freely that our church is false, yet the moment someone says that your church is false, you cry that you're being libeled. Nobody can offer any kind of criticism of your positions or your church without you playing the libel card.

What I'm saying is NOT libel for the following reasons:
  • I'm not deliberately telling lies about you. I'm just speaking the truth as best I know it.
  • I'm not speaking maliciously. I'm just speaking honestly.
  • I'm not trying to defame your character. I'm just holding a mirror up in front of your face so you can see what you look like.

I appeal to facts while the people using libel, use mockery and untruths.
You appeal to facts, but you won't grant that your opponents are doing the same?

You criticize our positions, but you won't allow anyone to criticize yours?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Rhinosaur

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #366 on: April 24, 2015, 06:55:27 PM »
If there's one good thing to come out of this thread, it is that I am currently writing a sci-fi/horror story surrounding Kitezh which shall serve as the nucleus for a multiverse that I am creating.

Offline biro

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #367 on: April 24, 2015, 06:56:09 PM »
If there's one good thing to come out of this thread, it is that I am currently writing a sci-fi/horror story surrounding Kitezh which shall serve as the nucleus for a multiverse that I am creating.

It would make a good video game.
My only weakness is, well, never mind

Offline вєликаго

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #368 on: April 24, 2015, 07:19:50 PM »
I'm done here, find someone else to pretend your not insulting, and slandering.
You said you were leaving this forum a few weeks ago, yet now you're back. You want us to take you seriously when you say you're leaving? You'll be back, for you can't resist arguing with us.

I just have a concern for people who might come here and believe the libelous posts, and the insults, against the Orthodox faith (Old Believers). This thread has continued to be nothing more then plain mockery of the Truth. I'm back off again, I'm just leave this warning for the poor unsuspecting person -- may God help them.

However, your post its self is misleading, I asked for all my posts to be deleted as well as this account, however, I was denied this. Eventually, after I feel I've left enough warnings, God help me, I'll be fully done with this site.  I'm going this route since my posts will still be here, I fear that they could be used wrongly to lead people astray, unless I leave ample warnings.
That's not the problem, though. The problem is this: You come here telling us freely that our church is false, yet the moment someone says that your church is false, you cry that you're being libeled. Nobody can offer any kind of criticism of your positions or your church without you playing the libel card.

What I'm saying is NOT libel for the following reasons:
  • I'm not deliberately telling lies about you. I'm just speaking the truth as best I know it.
  • I'm not speaking maliciously. I'm just speaking honestly.
  • I'm not trying to defame your character. I'm just holding a mirror up in front of your face so you can see what you look like.

I appeal to facts while the people using libel, use mockery and untruths.

No offense is intended by this, but please bear with me:

You denied my Orthodoxy because I don't believe in Kitezh.  I consider that libel.  But to you only statements which disagree with your position are libelous it seems; it comes across as belligerent hypocrisy to be frank, and I don't think you're doing anything to promote a positive image of the Old Believer movement.

I was deeply offended by your denial of my Orthodoxy and I do consider myself to have been libelled, since nowhere in the creeds or anywhere else do we see a belief in Kitzeh made a required article of faith.  How can you complain of us insulting you, when you insult us?  You insulted me in the most extreme manner possible by denying my Orthodox faith.  I am deeply hurt by it, although I forgive you as I don't believe you understand the impact of your words.

This is dishonest.

I'm done here, find someone else to pretend your not insulting, and slandering.
You said you were leaving this forum a few weeks ago, yet now you're back. You want us to take you seriously when you say you're leaving? You'll be back, for you can't resist arguing with us.

I just have a concern for people who might come here and believe the libelous posts, and the insults, against the Orthodox faith (Old Believers). This thread has continued to be nothing more then plain mockery of the Truth. I'm back off again, I'm just leave this warning for the poor unsuspecting person -- may God help them.

However, your post its self is misleading, I asked for all my posts to be deleted as well as this account, however, I was denied this. Eventually, after I feel I've left enough warnings, God help me, I'll be fully done with this site.  I'm going this route since my posts will still be here, I fear that they could be used wrongly to lead people astray, unless I leave ample warnings.
That's not the problem, though. The problem is this: You come here telling us freely that our church is false, yet the moment someone says that your church is false, you cry that you're being libeled. Nobody can offer any kind of criticism of your positions or your church without you playing the libel card.

What I'm saying is NOT libel for the following reasons:
  • I'm not deliberately telling lies about you. I'm just speaking the truth as best I know it.
  • I'm not speaking maliciously. I'm just speaking honestly.
  • I'm not trying to defame your character. I'm just holding a mirror up in front of your face so you can see what you look like.

I appeal to facts while the people using libel, use mockery and untruths.
You appeal to facts, but you won't grant that your opponents are doing the same?

You criticize our positions, but you won't allow anyone to criticize yours?

This is also dishonest.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 07:21:18 PM by вєликаго »
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline PeterTheAleut

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  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #369 on: April 24, 2015, 07:23:26 PM »
I'm done here, find someone else to pretend your not insulting, and slandering.
You said you were leaving this forum a few weeks ago, yet now you're back. You want us to take you seriously when you say you're leaving? You'll be back, for you can't resist arguing with us.

I just have a concern for people who might come here and believe the libelous posts, and the insults, against the Orthodox faith (Old Believers). This thread has continued to be nothing more then plain mockery of the Truth. I'm back off again, I'm just leave this warning for the poor unsuspecting person -- may God help them.

However, your post its self is misleading, I asked for all my posts to be deleted as well as this account, however, I was denied this. Eventually, after I feel I've left enough warnings, God help me, I'll be fully done with this site.  I'm going this route since my posts will still be here, I fear that they could be used wrongly to lead people astray, unless I leave ample warnings.
That's not the problem, though. The problem is this: You come here telling us freely that our church is false, yet the moment someone says that your church is false, you cry that you're being libeled. Nobody can offer any kind of criticism of your positions or your church without you playing the libel card.

What I'm saying is NOT libel for the following reasons:
  • I'm not deliberately telling lies about you. I'm just speaking the truth as best I know it.
  • I'm not speaking maliciously. I'm just speaking honestly.
  • I'm not trying to defame your character. I'm just holding a mirror up in front of your face so you can see what you look like.

I appeal to facts while the people using libel, use mockery and untruths.

No offense is intended by this, but please bear with me:

You denied my Orthodoxy because I don't believe in Kitezh.  I consider that libel.  But to you only statements which disagree with your position are libelous it seems; it comes across as belligerent hypocrisy to be frank, and I don't think you're doing anything to promote a positive image of the Old Believer movement.

I was deeply offended by your denial of my Orthodoxy and I do consider myself to have been libelled, since nowhere in the creeds or anywhere else do we see a belief in Kitzeh made a required article of faith.  How can you complain of us insulting you, when you insult us?  You insulted me in the most extreme manner possible by denying my Orthodox faith.  I am deeply hurt by it, although I forgive you as I don't believe you understand the impact of your words.

This is dishonest.

I'm done here, find someone else to pretend your not insulting, and slandering.
You said you were leaving this forum a few weeks ago, yet now you're back. You want us to take you seriously when you say you're leaving? You'll be back, for you can't resist arguing with us.

I just have a concern for people who might come here and believe the libelous posts, and the insults, against the Orthodox faith (Old Believers). This thread has continued to be nothing more then plain mockery of the Truth. I'm back off again, I'm just leave this warning for the poor unsuspecting person -- may God help them.

However, your post its self is misleading, I asked for all my posts to be deleted as well as this account, however, I was denied this. Eventually, after I feel I've left enough warnings, God help me, I'll be fully done with this site.  I'm going this route since my posts will still be here, I fear that they could be used wrongly to lead people astray, unless I leave ample warnings.
That's not the problem, though. The problem is this: You come here telling us freely that our church is false, yet the moment someone says that your church is false, you cry that you're being libeled. Nobody can offer any kind of criticism of your positions or your church without you playing the libel card.

What I'm saying is NOT libel for the following reasons:
  • I'm not deliberately telling lies about you. I'm just speaking the truth as best I know it.
  • I'm not speaking maliciously. I'm just speaking honestly.
  • I'm not trying to defame your character. I'm just holding a mirror up in front of your face so you can see what you look like.

I appeal to facts while the people using libel, use mockery and untruths.
You appeal to facts, but you won't grant that your opponents are doing the same?

You criticize our positions, but you won't allow anyone to criticize yours?

This is also dishonest.
No, we're both being VERY honest, and you defame our character by calling our words dishonest and libelous. The fact that you refuse to look into a mirror doesn't make us dishonest.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline вєликаго

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #370 on: April 24, 2015, 07:24:07 PM »
I'm done here, find someone else to pretend your not insulting, and slandering.
You said you were leaving this forum a few weeks ago, yet now you're back. You want us to take you seriously when you say you're leaving? You'll be back, for you can't resist arguing with us.

I just have a concern for people who might come here and believe the libelous posts, and the insults, against the Orthodox faith (Old Believers). This thread has continued to be nothing more then plain mockery of the Truth. I'm back off again, I'm just leave this warning for the poor unsuspecting person -- may God help them.

However, your post its self is misleading, I asked for all my posts to be deleted as well as this account, however, I was denied this. Eventually, after I feel I've left enough warnings, God help me, I'll be fully done with this site.  I'm going this route since my posts will still be here, I fear that they could be used wrongly to lead people astray, unless I leave ample warnings.
That's not the problem, though. The problem is this: You come here telling us freely that our church is false, yet the moment someone says that your church is false, you cry that you're being libeled. Nobody can offer any kind of criticism of your positions or your church without you playing the libel card.

What I'm saying is NOT libel for the following reasons:
  • I'm not deliberately telling lies about you. I'm just speaking the truth as best I know it.
  • I'm not speaking maliciously. I'm just speaking honestly.
  • I'm not trying to defame your character. I'm just holding a mirror up in front of your face so you can see what you look like.

I appeal to facts while the people using libel, use mockery and untruths.

No offense is intended by this, but please bear with me:

You denied my Orthodoxy because I don't believe in Kitezh.  I consider that libel.  But to you only statements which disagree with your position are libelous it seems; it comes across as belligerent hypocrisy to be frank, and I don't think you're doing anything to promote a positive image of the Old Believer movement.

I was deeply offended by your denial of my Orthodoxy and I do consider myself to have been libelled, since nowhere in the creeds or anywhere else do we see a belief in Kitzeh made a required article of faith.  How can you complain of us insulting you, when you insult us?  You insulted me in the most extreme manner possible by denying my Orthodox faith.  I am deeply hurt by it, although I forgive you as I don't believe you understand the impact of your words.

This is dishonest.

I'm done here, find someone else to pretend your not insulting, and slandering.
You said you were leaving this forum a few weeks ago, yet now you're back. You want us to take you seriously when you say you're leaving? You'll be back, for you can't resist arguing with us.

I just have a concern for people who might come here and believe the libelous posts, and the insults, against the Orthodox faith (Old Believers). This thread has continued to be nothing more then plain mockery of the Truth. I'm back off again, I'm just leave this warning for the poor unsuspecting person -- may God help them.

However, your post its self is misleading, I asked for all my posts to be deleted as well as this account, however, I was denied this. Eventually, after I feel I've left enough warnings, God help me, I'll be fully done with this site.  I'm going this route since my posts will still be here, I fear that they could be used wrongly to lead people astray, unless I leave ample warnings.
That's not the problem, though. The problem is this: You come here telling us freely that our church is false, yet the moment someone says that your church is false, you cry that you're being libeled. Nobody can offer any kind of criticism of your positions or your church without you playing the libel card.

What I'm saying is NOT libel for the following reasons:
  • I'm not deliberately telling lies about you. I'm just speaking the truth as best I know it.
  • I'm not speaking maliciously. I'm just speaking honestly.
  • I'm not trying to defame your character. I'm just holding a mirror up in front of your face so you can see what you look like.

I appeal to facts while the people using libel, use mockery and untruths.
You appeal to facts, but you won't grant that your opponents are doing the same?

You criticize our positions, but you won't allow anyone to criticize yours?

This is also dishonest.
No, we're both being VERY honest, and you defame our character by calling our words dishonest and libelous. The fact that you refuse to look into a mirror doesn't make us dishonest.

  I'm certainly not doing anything remotely like what you are doing, like you falsely claim.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 07:27:05 PM by вєликаго »
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline wgw

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #371 on: April 24, 2015, 07:25:34 PM »
If there's one good thing to come out of this thread, it is that I am currently writing a sci-fi/horror story surrounding Kitezh which shall serve as the nucleus for a multiverse that I am creating.

That does sound rather good.  I'm working on The Book of the Wasp: A Nestorian Horror Story featuring an occult counterpart to the famed Book of the Bee, written by the same legendary Assyrian bishop, containing occult knowledge on an evil sect of Ishtar worshippers hidden in the hills above the Nineveh plains and plotting the death of everyone in Mesopotamia, and it's rediscovery by a 20th century archaeologist, unleashing much unpleasantness.   
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline wgw

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #372 on: April 24, 2015, 07:26:57 PM »
I'm done here, find someone else to pretend your not insulting, and slandering.
You said you were leaving this forum a few weeks ago, yet now you're back. You want us to take you seriously when you say you're leaving? You'll be back, for you can't resist arguing with us.

I just have a concern for people who might come here and believe the libelous posts, and the insults, against the Orthodox faith (Old Believers). This thread has continued to be nothing more then plain mockery of the Truth. I'm back off again, I'm just leave this warning for the poor unsuspecting person -- may God help them.

However, your post its self is misleading, I asked for all my posts to be deleted as well as this account, however, I was denied this. Eventually, after I feel I've left enough warnings, God help me, I'll be fully done with this site.  I'm going this route since my posts will still be here, I fear that they could be used wrongly to lead people astray, unless I leave ample warnings.
That's not the problem, though. The problem is this: You come here telling us freely that our church is false, yet the moment someone says that your church is false, you cry that you're being libeled. Nobody can offer any kind of criticism of your positions or your church without you playing the libel card.

What I'm saying is NOT libel for the following reasons:
  • I'm not deliberately telling lies about you. I'm just speaking the truth as best I know it.
  • I'm not speaking maliciously. I'm just speaking honestly.
  • I'm not trying to defame your character. I'm just holding a mirror up in front of your face so you can see what you look like.

I appeal to facts while the people using libel, use mockery and untruths.

No offense is intended by this, but please bear with me:

You denied my Orthodoxy because I don't believe in Kitezh.  I consider that libel.  But to you only statements which disagree with your position are libelous it seems; it comes across as belligerent hypocrisy to be frank, and I don't think you're doing anything to promote a positive image of the Old Believer movement.

I was deeply offended by your denial of my Orthodoxy and I do consider myself to have been libelled, since nowhere in the creeds or anywhere else do we see a belief in Kitzeh made a required article of faith.  How can you complain of us insulting you, when you insult us?  You insulted me in the most extreme manner possible by denying my Orthodox faith.  I am deeply hurt by it, although I forgive you as I don't believe you understand the impact of your words.

This is dishonest.

I'm done here, find someone else to pretend your not insulting, and slandering.
You said you were leaving this forum a few weeks ago, yet now you're back. You want us to take you seriously when you say you're leaving? You'll be back, for you can't resist arguing with us.

I just have a concern for people who might come here and believe the libelous posts, and the insults, against the Orthodox faith (Old Believers). This thread has continued to be nothing more then plain mockery of the Truth. I'm back off again, I'm just leave this warning for the poor unsuspecting person -- may God help them.

However, your post its self is misleading, I asked for all my posts to be deleted as well as this account, however, I was denied this. Eventually, after I feel I've left enough warnings, God help me, I'll be fully done with this site.  I'm going this route since my posts will still be here, I fear that they could be used wrongly to lead people astray, unless I leave ample warnings.
That's not the problem, though. The problem is this: You come here telling us freely that our church is false, yet the moment someone says that your church is false, you cry that you're being libeled. Nobody can offer any kind of criticism of your positions or your church without you playing the libel card.

What I'm saying is NOT libel for the following reasons:
  • I'm not deliberately telling lies about you. I'm just speaking the truth as best I know it.
  • I'm not speaking maliciously. I'm just speaking honestly.
  • I'm not trying to defame your character. I'm just holding a mirror up in front of your face so you can see what you look like.

I appeal to facts while the people using libel, use mockery and untruths.
You appeal to facts, but you won't grant that your opponents are doing the same?

You criticize our positions, but you won't allow anyone to criticize yours?

This is also dishonest.
No, we're both being VERY honest, and you defame our character by calling our words dishonest and libelous. The fact that you refuse to look into a mirror doesn't make us dishonest.

Actually your being very, very dishonest and putting words in my mouth.

Did you not intend to say that I wasn't Orthodox then?  Because if I misinterpreted you, my apologies.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
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  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #373 on: April 24, 2015, 07:27:30 PM »
I'm done here, find someone else to pretend your not insulting, and slandering.
You said you were leaving this forum a few weeks ago, yet now you're back. You want us to take you seriously when you say you're leaving? You'll be back, for you can't resist arguing with us.

I just have a concern for people who might come here and believe the libelous posts, and the insults, against the Orthodox faith (Old Believers). This thread has continued to be nothing more then plain mockery of the Truth. I'm back off again, I'm just leave this warning for the poor unsuspecting person -- may God help them.

However, your post its self is misleading, I asked for all my posts to be deleted as well as this account, however, I was denied this. Eventually, after I feel I've left enough warnings, God help me, I'll be fully done with this site.  I'm going this route since my posts will still be here, I fear that they could be used wrongly to lead people astray, unless I leave ample warnings.
That's not the problem, though. The problem is this: You come here telling us freely that our church is false, yet the moment someone says that your church is false, you cry that you're being libeled. Nobody can offer any kind of criticism of your positions or your church without you playing the libel card.

What I'm saying is NOT libel for the following reasons:
  • I'm not deliberately telling lies about you. I'm just speaking the truth as best I know it.
  • I'm not speaking maliciously. I'm just speaking honestly.
  • I'm not trying to defame your character. I'm just holding a mirror up in front of your face so you can see what you look like.

I appeal to facts while the people using libel, use mockery and untruths.

No offense is intended by this, but please bear with me:

You denied my Orthodoxy because I don't believe in Kitezh.  I consider that libel.  But to you only statements which disagree with your position are libelous it seems; it comes across as belligerent hypocrisy to be frank, and I don't think you're doing anything to promote a positive image of the Old Believer movement.

I was deeply offended by your denial of my Orthodoxy and I do consider myself to have been libelled, since nowhere in the creeds or anywhere else do we see a belief in Kitzeh made a required article of faith.  How can you complain of us insulting you, when you insult us?  You insulted me in the most extreme manner possible by denying my Orthodox faith.  I am deeply hurt by it, although I forgive you as I don't believe you understand the impact of your words.

This is dishonest.

I'm done here, find someone else to pretend your not insulting, and slandering.
You said you were leaving this forum a few weeks ago, yet now you're back. You want us to take you seriously when you say you're leaving? You'll be back, for you can't resist arguing with us.

I just have a concern for people who might come here and believe the libelous posts, and the insults, against the Orthodox faith (Old Believers). This thread has continued to be nothing more then plain mockery of the Truth. I'm back off again, I'm just leave this warning for the poor unsuspecting person -- may God help them.

However, your post its self is misleading, I asked for all my posts to be deleted as well as this account, however, I was denied this. Eventually, after I feel I've left enough warnings, God help me, I'll be fully done with this site.  I'm going this route since my posts will still be here, I fear that they could be used wrongly to lead people astray, unless I leave ample warnings.
That's not the problem, though. The problem is this: You come here telling us freely that our church is false, yet the moment someone says that your church is false, you cry that you're being libeled. Nobody can offer any kind of criticism of your positions or your church without you playing the libel card.

What I'm saying is NOT libel for the following reasons:
  • I'm not deliberately telling lies about you. I'm just speaking the truth as best I know it.
  • I'm not speaking maliciously. I'm just speaking honestly.
  • I'm not trying to defame your character. I'm just holding a mirror up in front of your face so you can see what you look like.

I appeal to facts while the people using libel, use mockery and untruths.
You appeal to facts, but you won't grant that your opponents are doing the same?

You criticize our positions, but you won't allow anyone to criticize yours?

This is also dishonest.
No, we're both being VERY honest, and you defame our character by calling our words dishonest and libelous. The fact that you refuse to look into a mirror doesn't make us dishonest.

Actually your being very, very dishonest and putting words in my mouth.
Do not defame my character like this. You have yourself used the words "dishonest" and "libel" to describe the words we've said of you. In my last post I attributed only those two words to you and nothing more. I am not putting words into your mouth.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline вєликаго

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  • Posts: 389
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #374 on: April 24, 2015, 07:36:50 PM »
I'm done here, find someone else to pretend your not insulting, and slandering.
You said you were leaving this forum a few weeks ago, yet now you're back. You want us to take you seriously when you say you're leaving? You'll be back, for you can't resist arguing with us.

I just have a concern for people who might come here and believe the libelous posts, and the insults, against the Orthodox faith (Old Believers). This thread has continued to be nothing more then plain mockery of the Truth. I'm back off again, I'm just leave this warning for the poor unsuspecting person -- may God help them.

However, your post its self is misleading, I asked for all my posts to be deleted as well as this account, however, I was denied this. Eventually, after I feel I've left enough warnings, God help me, I'll be fully done with this site.  I'm going this route since my posts will still be here, I fear that they could be used wrongly to lead people astray, unless I leave ample warnings.
That's not the problem, though. The problem is this: You come here telling us freely that our church is false, yet the moment someone says that your church is false, you cry that you're being libeled. Nobody can offer any kind of criticism of your positions or your church without you playing the libel card.

What I'm saying is NOT libel for the following reasons:
  • I'm not deliberately telling lies about you. I'm just speaking the truth as best I know it.
  • I'm not speaking maliciously. I'm just speaking honestly.
  • I'm not trying to defame your character. I'm just holding a mirror up in front of your face so you can see what you look like.

I appeal to facts while the people using libel, use mockery and untruths.

No offense is intended by this, but please bear with me:

You denied my Orthodoxy because I don't believe in Kitezh.  I consider that libel.  But to you only statements which disagree with your position are libelous it seems; it comes across as belligerent hypocrisy to be frank, and I don't think you're doing anything to promote a positive image of the Old Believer movement.

I was deeply offended by your denial of my Orthodoxy and I do consider myself to have been libelled, since nowhere in the creeds or anywhere else do we see a belief in Kitzeh made a required article of faith.  How can you complain of us insulting you, when you insult us?  You insulted me in the most extreme manner possible by denying my Orthodox faith.  I am deeply hurt by it, although I forgive you as I don't believe you understand the impact of your words.

This is dishonest.

I'm done here, find someone else to pretend your not insulting, and slandering.
You said you were leaving this forum a few weeks ago, yet now you're back. You want us to take you seriously when you say you're leaving? You'll be back, for you can't resist arguing with us.

I just have a concern for people who might come here and believe the libelous posts, and the insults, against the Orthodox faith (Old Believers). This thread has continued to be nothing more then plain mockery of the Truth. I'm back off again, I'm just leave this warning for the poor unsuspecting person -- may God help them.

However, your post its self is misleading, I asked for all my posts to be deleted as well as this account, however, I was denied this. Eventually, after I feel I've left enough warnings, God help me, I'll be fully done with this site.  I'm going this route since my posts will still be here, I fear that they could be used wrongly to lead people astray, unless I leave ample warnings.
That's not the problem, though. The problem is this: You come here telling us freely that our church is false, yet the moment someone says that your church is false, you cry that you're being libeled. Nobody can offer any kind of criticism of your positions or your church without you playing the libel card.

What I'm saying is NOT libel for the following reasons:
  • I'm not deliberately telling lies about you. I'm just speaking the truth as best I know it.
  • I'm not speaking maliciously. I'm just speaking honestly.
  • I'm not trying to defame your character. I'm just holding a mirror up in front of your face so you can see what you look like.

I appeal to facts while the people using libel, use mockery and untruths.
You appeal to facts, but you won't grant that your opponents are doing the same?

You criticize our positions, but you won't allow anyone to criticize yours?

This is also dishonest.
No, we're both being VERY honest, and you defame our character by calling our words dishonest and libelous. The fact that you refuse to look into a mirror doesn't make us dishonest.

Actually your being very, very dishonest and putting words in my mouth.
Do not defame my character like this. You have yourself used the words "dishonest" and "libel" to describe the words we've said of you. In my last post I attributed only those two words to you and nothing more. I am not putting words into your mouth.

I had you mixed up with someone else, my apologies. I edited my post as soon as I realized it, before you even posted this. 
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 07:38:09 PM by вєликаго »
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #375 on: April 24, 2015, 07:43:27 PM »
I'm done here, find someone else to pretend your not insulting, and slandering.
You said you were leaving this forum a few weeks ago, yet now you're back. You want us to take you seriously when you say you're leaving? You'll be back, for you can't resist arguing with us.

I just have a concern for people who might come here and believe the libelous posts, and the insults, against the Orthodox faith (Old Believers). This thread has continued to be nothing more then plain mockery of the Truth. I'm back off again, I'm just leave this warning for the poor unsuspecting person -- may God help them.

However, your post its self is misleading, I asked for all my posts to be deleted as well as this account, however, I was denied this. Eventually, after I feel I've left enough warnings, God help me, I'll be fully done with this site.  I'm going this route since my posts will still be here, I fear that they could be used wrongly to lead people astray, unless I leave ample warnings.
That's not the problem, though. The problem is this: You come here telling us freely that our church is false, yet the moment someone says that your church is false, you cry that you're being libeled. Nobody can offer any kind of criticism of your positions or your church without you playing the libel card.

What I'm saying is NOT libel for the following reasons:
  • I'm not deliberately telling lies about you. I'm just speaking the truth as best I know it.
  • I'm not speaking maliciously. I'm just speaking honestly.
  • I'm not trying to defame your character. I'm just holding a mirror up in front of your face so you can see what you look like.

I appeal to facts while the people using libel, use mockery and untruths.

No offense is intended by this, but please bear with me:

You denied my Orthodoxy because I don't believe in Kitezh.  I consider that libel.  But to you only statements which disagree with your position are libelous it seems; it comes across as belligerent hypocrisy to be frank, and I don't think you're doing anything to promote a positive image of the Old Believer movement.

I was deeply offended by your denial of my Orthodoxy and I do consider myself to have been libelled, since nowhere in the creeds or anywhere else do we see a belief in Kitzeh made a required article of faith.  How can you complain of us insulting you, when you insult us?  You insulted me in the most extreme manner possible by denying my Orthodox faith.  I am deeply hurt by it, although I forgive you as I don't believe you understand the impact of your words.

This is dishonest.

I'm done here, find someone else to pretend your not insulting, and slandering.
You said you were leaving this forum a few weeks ago, yet now you're back. You want us to take you seriously when you say you're leaving? You'll be back, for you can't resist arguing with us.

I just have a concern for people who might come here and believe the libelous posts, and the insults, against the Orthodox faith (Old Believers). This thread has continued to be nothing more then plain mockery of the Truth. I'm back off again, I'm just leave this warning for the poor unsuspecting person -- may God help them.

However, your post its self is misleading, I asked for all my posts to be deleted as well as this account, however, I was denied this. Eventually, after I feel I've left enough warnings, God help me, I'll be fully done with this site.  I'm going this route since my posts will still be here, I fear that they could be used wrongly to lead people astray, unless I leave ample warnings.
That's not the problem, though. The problem is this: You come here telling us freely that our church is false, yet the moment someone says that your church is false, you cry that you're being libeled. Nobody can offer any kind of criticism of your positions or your church without you playing the libel card.

What I'm saying is NOT libel for the following reasons:
  • I'm not deliberately telling lies about you. I'm just speaking the truth as best I know it.
  • I'm not speaking maliciously. I'm just speaking honestly.
  • I'm not trying to defame your character. I'm just holding a mirror up in front of your face so you can see what you look like.

I appeal to facts while the people using libel, use mockery and untruths.
You appeal to facts, but you won't grant that your opponents are doing the same?

You criticize our positions, but you won't allow anyone to criticize yours?

This is also dishonest.
No, we're both being VERY honest, and you defame our character by calling our words dishonest and libelous. The fact that you refuse to look into a mirror doesn't make us dishonest.

  I'm certainly not doing anything remotely like what you are doing, like you falsely claim.
Of course we're not doing what you are doing. I'm not aware that anyone has told you that your church is heretical and that you need to repent of your heresy and join the "Nikonian" Orthodox Church, yet you routinely tell us that our Church is heretical and that we need to repent and become Old Believers. We're not doing what you are doing. What you are doing is much worse.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 07:46:03 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline вєликаго

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  • Posts: 389
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #376 on: April 24, 2015, 07:46:18 PM »
I'm done here, find someone else to pretend your not insulting, and slandering.
You said you were leaving this forum a few weeks ago, yet now you're back. You want us to take you seriously when you say you're leaving? You'll be back, for you can't resist arguing with us.

I just have a concern for people who might come here and believe the libelous posts, and the insults, against the Orthodox faith (Old Believers). This thread has continued to be nothing more then plain mockery of the Truth. I'm back off again, I'm just leave this warning for the poor unsuspecting person -- may God help them.

However, your post its self is misleading, I asked for all my posts to be deleted as well as this account, however, I was denied this. Eventually, after I feel I've left enough warnings, God help me, I'll be fully done with this site.  I'm going this route since my posts will still be here, I fear that they could be used wrongly to lead people astray, unless I leave ample warnings.
That's not the problem, though. The problem is this: You come here telling us freely that our church is false, yet the moment someone says that your church is false, you cry that you're being libeled. Nobody can offer any kind of criticism of your positions or your church without you playing the libel card.

What I'm saying is NOT libel for the following reasons:
  • I'm not deliberately telling lies about you. I'm just speaking the truth as best I know it.
  • I'm not speaking maliciously. I'm just speaking honestly.
  • I'm not trying to defame your character. I'm just holding a mirror up in front of your face so you can see what you look like.

I appeal to facts while the people using libel, use mockery and untruths.

No offense is intended by this, but please bear with me:

You denied my Orthodoxy because I don't believe in Kitezh.  I consider that libel.  But to you only statements which disagree with your position are libelous it seems; it comes across as belligerent hypocrisy to be frank, and I don't think you're doing anything to promote a positive image of the Old Believer movement.

I was deeply offended by your denial of my Orthodoxy and I do consider myself to have been libelled, since nowhere in the creeds or anywhere else do we see a belief in Kitzeh made a required article of faith.  How can you complain of us insulting you, when you insult us?  You insulted me in the most extreme manner possible by denying my Orthodox faith.  I am deeply hurt by it, although I forgive you as I don't believe you understand the impact of your words.

This is dishonest.

I'm done here, find someone else to pretend your not insulting, and slandering.
You said you were leaving this forum a few weeks ago, yet now you're back. You want us to take you seriously when you say you're leaving? You'll be back, for you can't resist arguing with us.

I just have a concern for people who might come here and believe the libelous posts, and the insults, against the Orthodox faith (Old Believers). This thread has continued to be nothing more then plain mockery of the Truth. I'm back off again, I'm just leave this warning for the poor unsuspecting person -- may God help them.

However, your post its self is misleading, I asked for all my posts to be deleted as well as this account, however, I was denied this. Eventually, after I feel I've left enough warnings, God help me, I'll be fully done with this site.  I'm going this route since my posts will still be here, I fear that they could be used wrongly to lead people astray, unless I leave ample warnings.
That's not the problem, though. The problem is this: You come here telling us freely that our church is false, yet the moment someone says that your church is false, you cry that you're being libeled. Nobody can offer any kind of criticism of your positions or your church without you playing the libel card.

What I'm saying is NOT libel for the following reasons:
  • I'm not deliberately telling lies about you. I'm just speaking the truth as best I know it.
  • I'm not speaking maliciously. I'm just speaking honestly.
  • I'm not trying to defame your character. I'm just holding a mirror up in front of your face so you can see what you look like.

I appeal to facts while the people using libel, use mockery and untruths.
You appeal to facts, but you won't grant that your opponents are doing the same?

You criticize our positions, but you won't allow anyone to criticize yours?

This is also dishonest.
No, we're both being VERY honest, and you defame our character by calling our words dishonest and libelous. The fact that you refuse to look into a mirror doesn't make us dishonest.

  I'm certainly not doing anything remotely like what you are doing, like you falsely claim.
Of course we're not doing what you are doing. I'm not aware that anyone has told you that your church is heretical and that you need to repent of your heresy and join the "Nikonian" Orthodox Church, yet you routinely tell us that our Church is heretical and that we need to repent and become Old Believers. We're not doing what you are doing, for what you are doing is much worse.

Honesty and truth is all I've shared, no lies, no libel and I've mocked no one. If I've shared a untruth its certainly not been in a mean sprit (and its been done purely by  mistake) as I've suffered here, and, so have others.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 07:47:04 PM by вєликаго »
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline Rhinosaur

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  • Faith: Eastern Orthodoxy
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #377 on: April 24, 2015, 07:53:13 PM »
If there's one good thing to come out of this thread, it is that I am currently writing a sci-fi/horror story surrounding Kitezh which shall serve as the nucleus for a multiverse that I am creating.

That does sound rather good.  I'm working on The Book of the Wasp: A Nestorian Horror Story featuring an occult counterpart to the famed Book of the Bee, written by the same legendary Assyrian bishop, containing occult knowledge on an evil sect of Ishtar worshippers hidden in the hills above the Nineveh plains and plotting the death of everyone in Mesopotamia, and it's rediscovery by a 20th century archaeologist, unleashing much unpleasantness.

Interesting.  I actually haven't heard of the Book of the Bee; I'll have to look into it.  I've thought about making use of some of the old Middle Eastern gods, though the Egyptian gods have been heavily overused.  The ancient Aztec gods were pretty terrifying and could make for good villains.  Your concept sounds very Giger-esque with the use of a sex-centered monster goddess.  As for my story, it is called The Grand Prince, and it basically deals with some researchers of Russian history inadvertently discovering the buried city of Kitezh, only to find it overrun by Splatterhouse-style and Lovecraftian monsters who are gradually opening a portal from their world to ours.  It is part of a series that at the moment is entitled Strange Dayz.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
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  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #378 on: April 24, 2015, 07:57:03 PM »
I'm done here, find someone else to pretend your not insulting, and slandering.
You said you were leaving this forum a few weeks ago, yet now you're back. You want us to take you seriously when you say you're leaving? You'll be back, for you can't resist arguing with us.

I just have a concern for people who might come here and believe the libelous posts, and the insults, against the Orthodox faith (Old Believers). This thread has continued to be nothing more then plain mockery of the Truth. I'm back off again, I'm just leave this warning for the poor unsuspecting person -- may God help them.

However, your post its self is misleading, I asked for all my posts to be deleted as well as this account, however, I was denied this. Eventually, after I feel I've left enough warnings, God help me, I'll be fully done with this site.  I'm going this route since my posts will still be here, I fear that they could be used wrongly to lead people astray, unless I leave ample warnings.
That's not the problem, though. The problem is this: You come here telling us freely that our church is false, yet the moment someone says that your church is false, you cry that you're being libeled. Nobody can offer any kind of criticism of your positions or your church without you playing the libel card.

What I'm saying is NOT libel for the following reasons:
  • I'm not deliberately telling lies about you. I'm just speaking the truth as best I know it.
  • I'm not speaking maliciously. I'm just speaking honestly.
  • I'm not trying to defame your character. I'm just holding a mirror up in front of your face so you can see what you look like.

I appeal to facts while the people using libel, use mockery and untruths.

No offense is intended by this, but please bear with me:

You denied my Orthodoxy because I don't believe in Kitezh.  I consider that libel.  But to you only statements which disagree with your position are libelous it seems; it comes across as belligerent hypocrisy to be frank, and I don't think you're doing anything to promote a positive image of the Old Believer movement.

I was deeply offended by your denial of my Orthodoxy and I do consider myself to have been libelled, since nowhere in the creeds or anywhere else do we see a belief in Kitzeh made a required article of faith.  How can you complain of us insulting you, when you insult us?  You insulted me in the most extreme manner possible by denying my Orthodox faith.  I am deeply hurt by it, although I forgive you as I don't believe you understand the impact of your words.

This is dishonest.

I'm done here, find someone else to pretend your not insulting, and slandering.
You said you were leaving this forum a few weeks ago, yet now you're back. You want us to take you seriously when you say you're leaving? You'll be back, for you can't resist arguing with us.

I just have a concern for people who might come here and believe the libelous posts, and the insults, against the Orthodox faith (Old Believers). This thread has continued to be nothing more then plain mockery of the Truth. I'm back off again, I'm just leave this warning for the poor unsuspecting person -- may God help them.

However, your post its self is misleading, I asked for all my posts to be deleted as well as this account, however, I was denied this. Eventually, after I feel I've left enough warnings, God help me, I'll be fully done with this site.  I'm going this route since my posts will still be here, I fear that they could be used wrongly to lead people astray, unless I leave ample warnings.
That's not the problem, though. The problem is this: You come here telling us freely that our church is false, yet the moment someone says that your church is false, you cry that you're being libeled. Nobody can offer any kind of criticism of your positions or your church without you playing the libel card.

What I'm saying is NOT libel for the following reasons:
  • I'm not deliberately telling lies about you. I'm just speaking the truth as best I know it.
  • I'm not speaking maliciously. I'm just speaking honestly.
  • I'm not trying to defame your character. I'm just holding a mirror up in front of your face so you can see what you look like.

I appeal to facts while the people using libel, use mockery and untruths.
You appeal to facts, but you won't grant that your opponents are doing the same?

You criticize our positions, but you won't allow anyone to criticize yours?

This is also dishonest.
No, we're both being VERY honest, and you defame our character by calling our words dishonest and libelous. The fact that you refuse to look into a mirror doesn't make us dishonest.

  I'm certainly not doing anything remotely like what you are doing, like you falsely claim.
Of course we're not doing what you are doing. I'm not aware that anyone has told you that your church is heretical and that you need to repent of your heresy and join the "Nikonian" Orthodox Church, yet you routinely tell us that our Church is heretical and that we need to repent and become Old Believers. We're not doing what you are doing, for what you are doing is much worse.

Honesty and truth is all I've shared, no lies, no libel and I've mocked no one.
And I've never accused you of dishonesty, of libel, or of mocking anyone. What you have done is assert that your church's way of seeing things is the ONLY truth. You have accused us of heresy and told us we need to repent and become Old Believers like you. Yet when anyone of us criticizes your point of view at remotely close to the same level, you cry that we're persecuting you. You use the word "libel" so often that one would think it your favorite word. You accuse us of being dishonest.

If I've shared a untruth its certainly not been in a mean sprit (and its been done purely by  mistake) as I've suffered here, and, so have others.
Untruth and dishonesty is the least of your problems on this thread. I know you're being completely honest with us and that you've not been at all mean-spirited. If you read all my posts on this thread, you will see that the substance of my criticism has actually been that you can't take coming back to you anything even remotely similar to the abuse you heap upon us. You criticize our points of view, but you won't let anyone criticize yours.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 07:58:43 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #379 on: April 24, 2015, 10:50:18 PM »
I'm done here, find someone else to pretend your not insulting, and slandering.
You said you were leaving this forum a few weeks ago, yet now you're back. You want us to take you seriously when you say you're leaving? You'll be back, for you can't resist arguing with us.

I just have a concern for people who might come here and believe the libelous posts, and the insults, against the Orthodox faith (Old Believers). This thread has continued to be nothing more then plain mockery of the Truth. I'm back off again, I'm just leave this warning for the poor unsuspecting person -- may God help them.

However, your post its self is misleading, I asked for all my posts to be deleted as well as this account, however, I was denied this. Eventually, after I feel I've left enough warnings, God help me, I'll be fully done with this site.  I'm going this route since my posts will still be here, I fear that they could be used wrongly to lead people astray, unless I leave ample warnings.
That's not the problem, though. The problem is this: You come here telling us freely that our church is false, yet the moment someone says that your church is false, you cry that you're being libeled. Nobody can offer any kind of criticism of your positions or your church without you playing the libel card.

What I'm saying is NOT libel for the following reasons:
  • I'm not deliberately telling lies about you. I'm just speaking the truth as best I know it.
  • I'm not speaking maliciously. I'm just speaking honestly.
  • I'm not trying to defame your character. I'm just holding a mirror up in front of your face so you can see what you look like.

I appeal to facts while the people using libel, use mockery and untruths.

No offense is intended by this, but please bear with me:

You denied my Orthodoxy because I don't believe in Kitezh.  I consider that libel.  But to you only statements which disagree with your position are libelous it seems; it comes across as belligerent hypocrisy to be frank, and I don't think you're doing anything to promote a positive image of the Old Believer movement.

I was deeply offended by your denial of my Orthodoxy and I do consider myself to have been libelled, since nowhere in the creeds or anywhere else do we see a belief in Kitzeh made a required article of faith.  How can you complain of us insulting you, when you insult us?  You insulted me in the most extreme manner possible by denying my Orthodox faith.  I am deeply hurt by it, although I forgive you as I don't believe you understand the impact of your words.

This is dishonest.

I'm done here, find someone else to pretend your not insulting, and slandering.
You said you were leaving this forum a few weeks ago, yet now you're back. You want us to take you seriously when you say you're leaving? You'll be back, for you can't resist arguing with us.

I just have a concern for people who might come here and believe the libelous posts, and the insults, against the Orthodox faith (Old Believers). This thread has continued to be nothing more then plain mockery of the Truth. I'm back off again, I'm just leave this warning for the poor unsuspecting person -- may God help them.

However, your post its self is misleading, I asked for all my posts to be deleted as well as this account, however, I was denied this. Eventually, after I feel I've left enough warnings, God help me, I'll be fully done with this site.  I'm going this route since my posts will still be here, I fear that they could be used wrongly to lead people astray, unless I leave ample warnings.
That's not the problem, though. The problem is this: You come here telling us freely that our church is false, yet the moment someone says that your church is false, you cry that you're being libeled. Nobody can offer any kind of criticism of your positions or your church without you playing the libel card.

What I'm saying is NOT libel for the following reasons:
  • I'm not deliberately telling lies about you. I'm just speaking the truth as best I know it.
  • I'm not speaking maliciously. I'm just speaking honestly.
  • I'm not trying to defame your character. I'm just holding a mirror up in front of your face so you can see what you look like.

I appeal to facts while the people using libel, use mockery and untruths.
You appeal to facts, but you won't grant that your opponents are doing the same?

You criticize our positions, but you won't allow anyone to criticize yours?

This is also dishonest.
No, we're both being VERY honest, and you defame our character by calling our words dishonest and libelous. The fact that you refuse to look into a mirror doesn't make us dishonest.

  I'm certainly not doing anything remotely like what you are doing, like you falsely claim.
Of course we're not doing what you are doing. I'm not aware that anyone has told you that your church is heretical and that you need to repent of your heresy and join the "Nikonian" Orthodox Church, yet you routinely tell us that our Church is heretical and that we need to repent and become Old Believers. We're not doing what you are doing, for what you are doing is much worse.

Honesty and truth is all I've shared, no lies, no libel and I've mocked no one. If I've shared a untruth its certainly not been in a mean sprit (and its been done purely by  mistake) as I've suffered here, and, so have others.

So are you willimg to affirm that I am Orthodox?  Because it's an untruth to deny that I believe in the Orthodox faith as expressed by the ecumenical councils and the fathers; I accept everything written by St. Athanasius as gospel truth, view St. Ignatius as the greatest of heroes, and embrace the theological explanations of St. Gregory Palamas without exception.

What is more, in this thread I consistently expressed my belief in the full Orthodoxy of the Old Believers, including even the priestless Old Believers.   And I have and use an Old Rite Horlogion from the church of the Nativity, and a Lestovka, which I love; I also have a standard 50 knot prayer rope, but I prefer praying on the Lestovka.

So I'm willimg to accept you denied ,y Orthodoxy by accident, but it is an untruth to say I'm not Orthodox, and I am formally asking you to retract that and affirm my Orthodoxy.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 10:54:43 PM by wgw »
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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #380 on: April 28, 2015, 10:24:32 AM »
I just want to make some remarks on Kitezh, as I haven't had time to really comment on it.

I think people are thinking about Kitezh is a very gross, "fundamentalist" way. Kitezh is not something you will see by SCUBA diving in Lake Svetloyar.

The myth of Kitezh takes place during the Mongol invasion of Russia. This was a time of apocalyptic violence and brutality. Kitezh is the martyrdom of Rus', much like we read about certain martyrs who were consumed by the earth before their persecutors could lay hold of them. It is a defenseless people lifting their hands to God and being hidden by him. It's a place where heaven has entered earth. Some have described it as the Russian version of the Holy Grail, and that's not far off. 

The theorizing about predestination, plans of salvation, etc., as if the people of Kitezh are separate from other people, misses the point. The people of Kitezh are no different than we are, but hidden in Christ. If we purify ourselves, we might see them, and join them.

I think the idea that Kitezh provides earthly priests and bishops to the priestless misses the point and understands Kitezh only in a carnal way.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 10:24:54 AM by Iconodule »
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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #381 on: April 28, 2015, 12:36:42 PM »
I have no problems with viewing Kitezh as a myth, like Atlantis, but more edifying.  It's viewing it as a real place with real inhabitants living in a state of special grace that I think is a distraction.  But if Kitezh is viewed as an educational and instructive allegory, it might well be beneficial, in the same way Plato sought to make a point with hiss story of Atlantis.  But Atlantis does not exist, and neither does Kitezh.  Also, the first appearance of the Kitezh myth is in an 18th century text, the Chronicle of Kitezh.  So this is not a story that actually dates from the Mongol Invasion as far as scholarship can ascertain.
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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #382 on: April 28, 2015, 12:49:53 PM »
Old Believers happen to have traditions that didn't get written down.
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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #383 on: April 28, 2015, 12:51:43 PM »
 Indeed.   There is more reliance on the unwritten Holy Tradition.   A silver lining of the clouds of a Monothelitism, Iconoclasm and so on was that the Eastern Orthodox did commit to,writing those aspects of Holy Tradition, which are shared with the Oriental Orthodox, who never had the occasion to formalize them in that sense, at least that Im aware.

But another problem is obscurity.  The books containing the nomocanon of the Coptic church and the other Oriental churches are all very obscure.  Much material, still in force, exists only in rare volumes in Arabic, Coptic (Sahidic as well as Bohairic), various Syriac dialects, Classical Armenian, Ge'ez and Amharic.  So much of the spiritual treasure of the Oriental Orthodox Church remains untranslated and inaccessible to most English language readers.  And the books themselves are obscure.  I don't think even the beginnings of a comprehensive bibliography of Ethiopian Orthodox religious literature exist.

I would say were on the whole about where the Eastern Orthodox were in terms of translating and publishing material, around 1960.  Huge chunks remain missing.  But a start has been made.  Most of the Coptic loturgy including the propers for Holy Week, the Synaxarium, even the funeral services for priests, and the Psalmody, with some lacunae where the Arabic and Coptic but not the English is provided, is available in English.  And you can also get much of the Syriac liturgy, all of the fixed parts of the liturgy and the canonical hours, at least.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 01:01:02 PM by wgw »
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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #384 on: April 28, 2015, 07:43:06 PM »
If there's one good thing to come out of this thread, it is that I am currently writing a sci-fi/horror story surrounding Kitezh which shall serve as the nucleus for a multiverse that I am creating.

That does sound rather good.  I'm working on The Book of the Wasp: A Nestorian Horror Story featuring an occult counterpart to the famed Book of the Bee, written by the same legendary Assyrian bishop, containing occult knowledge on an evil sect of Ishtar worshippers hidden in the hills above the Nineveh plains and plotting the death of everyone in Mesopotamia, and it's rediscovery by a 20th century archaeologist, unleashing much unpleasantness.
Great idea: are you going to publish it online?

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #385 on: April 28, 2015, 07:50:51 PM »

But another problem is obscurity.  The books containing the nomocanon of the Coptic church and the other Oriental churches are all very obscure.  Much material, still in force, exists only in rare volumes in Arabic, Coptic (Sahidic as well as Bohairic), various Syriac dialects, Classical Armenian, Ge'ez and Amharic.  So much of the spiritual treasure of the Oriental Orthodox Church remains untranslated and inaccessible to most English language readers.  And the books themselves are obscure.  I don't think even the beginnings of a comprehensive bibliography of Ethiopian Orthodox religious literature exist.

I would say were on the whole about where the Eastern Orthodox were in terms of translating and publishing material, around 1960.  Huge chunks remain missing.  But a start has been made.  Most of the Coptic loturgy including the propers for Holy Week, the Synaxarium, even the funeral services for priests, and the Psalmody, with some lacunae where the Arabic and Coptic but not the English is provided, is available in English.  And you can also get much of the Syriac liturgy, all of the fixed parts of the liturgy and the canonical hours, at least.

Is there any one university or centre where there are scholars working on these manuscripts or books?  Surely the number of scholars with knowledge of these ancient languages must be limited.

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #386 on: April 28, 2015, 09:10:41 PM »

But another problem is obscurity.  The books containing the nomocanon of the Coptic church and the other Oriental churches are all very obscure.  Much material, still in force, exists only in rare volumes in Arabic, Coptic (Sahidic as well as Bohairic), various Syriac dialects, Classical Armenian, Ge'ez and Amharic.  So much of the spiritual treasure of the Oriental Orthodox Church remains untranslated and inaccessible to most English language readers.  And the books themselves are obscure.  I don't think even the beginnings of a comprehensive bibliography of Ethiopian Orthodox religious literature exist.

I would say were on the whole about where the Eastern Orthodox were in terms of translating and publishing material, around 1960.  Huge chunks remain missing.  But a start has been made.  Most of the Coptic loturgy including the propers for Holy Week, the Synaxarium, even the funeral services for priests, and the Psalmody, with some lacunae where the Arabic and Coptic but not the English is provided, is available in English.  And you can also get much of the Syriac liturgy, all of the fixed parts of the liturgy and the canonical hours, at least.

Is there any one university or centre where there are scholars working on these manuscripts or books?  Surely the number of scholars with knowledge of these ancient languages must be limited.

To my chagrin I confused this thread with another.  But yes.  There is a need for more work though, in particular, more scholars to study the Ethiopian church.
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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #387 on: April 28, 2015, 09:12:08 PM »
If there's one good thing to come out of this thread, it is that I am currently writing a sci-fi/horror story surrounding Kitezh which shall serve as the nucleus for a multiverse that I am creating.

That does sound rather good.  I'm working on The Book of the Wasp: A Nestorian Horror Story featuring an occult counterpart to the famed Book of the Bee, written by the same legendary Assyrian bishop, containing occult knowledge on an evil sect of Ishtar worshippers hidden in the hills above the Nineveh plains and plotting the death of everyone in Mesopotamia, and it's rediscovery by a 20th century archaeologist, unleashing much unpleasantness.
Great idea: are you going to publish it online?

Possibly.   I ought to include Kitezh in it for the pure heck of it.
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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #388 on: April 29, 2015, 03:25:25 PM »
If there's one good thing to come out of this thread, it is that I am currently writing a sci-fi/horror story surrounding Kitezh which shall serve as the nucleus for a multiverse that I am creating.

That does sound rather good.  I'm working on The Book of the Wasp: A Nestorian Horror Story featuring an occult counterpart to the famed Book of the Bee, written by the same legendary Assyrian bishop, containing occult knowledge on an evil sect of Ishtar worshippers hidden in the hills above the Nineveh plains and plotting the death of everyone in Mesopotamia, and it's rediscovery by a 20th century archaeologist, unleashing much unpleasantness.
Great idea: are you going to publish it online?

Possibly.   I ought to include Kitezh in it for the pure heck of it.
I bet there is a group or discussion group out there for Orthodox Science Fiction Fans.

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #389 on: April 29, 2015, 03:29:35 PM »
For full disclosure, I recently finished a round of revisions on a middle grade historical-fantasy novel involving Kitezh and started submitting it to agents. So far I've had requests by agents to see more but no offers yet.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #390 on: April 29, 2015, 03:40:35 PM »
For full disclosure, I recently finished a round of revisions on a middle grade historical-fantasy novel involving Kitezh and started submitting it to agents. So far I've had requests by agents to see more but no offers yet.
Hey, that is good news. Be optomistic: they want more of your writing.

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #391 on: May 02, 2015, 07:12:50 AM »
Read one story about Kitezh as well.
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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #392 on: July 06, 2016, 01:08:45 AM »
Dear All
I only just came across this discussion and was rather upset by the intransigence displayed in several comments and wish I had been able at the time to aid Velikago.
He pointed several times to the few translated portions of D.S. Varakins debate responses and explication of the veracity of the Old Believer contention that the Nikonian Reforms and the Anathemas of the Sobor of 1666-1667 represent a heretical departure of the MP from the Canons and thus the fullness of Orthodoxy that are available at archeodox.WordPress.com
I have tried to reach out to the sites owner and the translator Vitalis Varioun in the past who basically abandoned the project and ceased our correspondence when he returned to St.Petersburg much to my unhappiness.
There is a LOT of available research on the Old Believers and Old Orthodoxy online but there is almost nothing in English. You can muddle through the Google translations but you need an Old Believer well versed in his/her faith to guide you which is not that easy. There is also a lot of partial info and mis-info as well.
The often quoted statement that the Stoglavy Sobor of 1551 was not accepted on Mt.Athos and the Russian monks there rejected it I have NEVER found verification for and the only source I have found for this is Runciman!
Again there is so much available research material online but it is not in English. I came close to becoming an Old Orthodox Christian/Old Believer but a deep ambivalence prevented it then and continues to now and I have had little involvement over the past four years.
But this discussion made it clear to me that however difficult it will be to confirm/verify sources there needs to be clear simply stated articles in English explaining the Old Believer position and reasons for such. I already have a good deal of info but confirming sources has been difficult. Yes it is about far more than just the using two fingers to bless make the Sign of the Cross! The differences between the Old Rite Proskomedia and New Rite and Seal/Stamp for Lamb loaf are extremely different! But the to end this very long post I will compile the info I have, do some more research and put it in a simple set of short articles/documents with the info I would have wanted available to me so many years ago. I also hope that this will end the frankly disrespectful attitude towards Old Believers displayed bybthose who seem to want to win them over. If you don't know and appreciate just how complex and canonically and historically well founded their positions REALLY ARE you won't understand and you certainly will not win their hearts and minds and heal the division of the Raskol. And whether you see it as uncanonical, crazy or stupid for the Popovsty/priested Old Believers to be 'poaching' their Priests, their access to the Mysteries for centuries no one can deny the state of the Official Russian Church from the late 17th century actively participating in the repressive measures of hunting down and brutally murdering Old Believers, destruction of villages and farms, and then especially the state of the official Russian Church from Tsar Peter I forward was certainly not canonical and was a sickly frail body compared to what Holy Russia had been and compared to what was clung to in peasant old rite communities then and to this day! The situation was dire, confusing and called for extreme measures to preserve Orthodoxy from all devout Russians whether they accepted the Nikonian Reforms or not!
« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 01:20:41 AM by Lenexa »

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #393 on: July 06, 2016, 01:15:30 AM »
But if someone speaks and reads only English, his chances of being accepted into the faithful by most Old Believer groups are small to nil, aren't they? So getting all this material into English seems like at best an academic exercise.
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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #394 on: July 06, 2016, 01:46:21 AM »
Dear Porter,
No, it happens in Oregon time to time but there simply aren't many Anglophones actively seeking to join the three or four Priested Old Believer parishes in North America. At one time I blamed the Old Orthodox for not actively evangelising the non-Orthodox but really until very recently in history simply surviving was a daily fight for those left in the USSR and Ceaucescu's Romania. And in Woodburn and Gervais Oregon and Nikolaevsk Alaska the parish priests and elders are trying to survive and maintain their faith and Tradition and community without losing their children to modernism and the abandonment of the Old Rite and community due to having to move to find work! Their was a family in the South, Kentucky if I'm not mistaken, that tried to start a chapel and gain some converts but sadly lack of money and family issues caused the original family to return to Romania and it just evaporated.
Sorry! that was a long winded answer but I once thought that too but hey a hundred years ago that was the case for Anglophones trying to join mainstream Greek Orthodox and Russian Orthodox parishes made up entirely of immigrants. Perhaps if articles such as I seek to write become more available , interest grows and the work of evangelism is committed to by a those Old Believers here who are called to it you may see in a few decades Old Believer parishes of Anglophone non-Russian Americans! After all there is now a Georgian Old Orthodox/Old Believer Church that though rooted in Georgian Tradition was largely the work of Old Believer evangelism! Perhaps they will even take a page from ROCOR and start an Old Believer Western Rite!?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 01:49:35 AM by Lenexa »

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #395 on: July 06, 2016, 01:51:34 AM »
You are narrating a lot, in that post -- and they are interesting stories -- but not really producing evidence that Old Believers have in fact a principle of accepting Anglophones into the faith.

And in Woodburn and Gervais Oregon and Nikolaevsk Alaska the parish priests and elders are trying to survive and maintain their faith and Tradition and community without losing their children to modernism and the abandonment of the Old Rite and community ...

Yes, I see the evidences of their struggle all the time. Within a few years, it seems, the young families have become ostentatiously worldly and ambitious.

What I have never seen evidence of is a willingness to embrace Anglophones or any proselytes, and in fact the faithful become quite evasive if someone wants to talk about their culture or religion.

Are the few cases you know of cases of marriage into the faith?
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Offline Lenexa

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #396 on: July 06, 2016, 02:23:23 AM »
I apologize for that! Gets worse every year!
The few cases I know of with Anglophones were marriage I admit. I have tried to find out more about the Old Believer Skete in North Dakota comprised of three monks who were formerly Roman Catholics before being accepted but have failed to receive any replies. The Russian Orthodox Old Rite Church under Metropolitan Kornily apparently now has an international evangelism department and an African mission parish now but I will have to investigate further to confirm and provide more info.  Yes, I admit it is unfortunate that at this time it would seem to take a great deal of effort for an anglophone to be accepted into an Old Believer parish but I reiterate that such was the case for anglophones joining more mainstream Orthodox jurisdictions only a few decades ago. But the few Old Believers I have had correspondence with were VERY friendly and helpful! One left the U.S.A. and is now a nun in a Lipovan convent in Romania, Nikita Simmons who produced the Old Rite Znamenny chant recordings available for purchase on CD was very good about quick replies and thorough explanations and Vitalis was very interested in evangelising Americans but like I stated we lost contact when he returned to Russia. 
I apologize for rambling here but I will need to do some work to get more info and provide a more complete overview. If I can get contact info I will simply reach out to the priests in Oregon and ask them point blank if they have any interest in evangelising anglophone Americans and if they would accept me?
Sorry again for rambling and not having better info!
Even if it ultimately proves to merely be an academic exercise don't you think it would at least be worthwhile?! I know when I began studying to convert to Orthodoxy I had a lot of unanswered questions about the Old Believers and what it was all about.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 02:31:21 AM by Lenexa »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #397 on: July 06, 2016, 02:38:26 AM »
Wonderful stuff.

Have the Woodburn-area folks priests? I thought they had not.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Lenexa

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #398 on: July 06, 2016, 10:38:21 AM »
Now that I think of it I think it is only the Old Believer churches in Gervais Oregon and Nikolaevsk Alaska that have priests in the Western Hemisphere.
To be completely honest I only resolved three weeks ago to return to researching the Old Believers/Old Rite/Old Orthodoxy after putting it aside a few years ago for a number of personal and family difficulties requiring my attention along with losing my two Old Believer friends and best resources/guides in my research. But the same drive for Truth and knowledge that led me to Orthodoxy so many years ago are now driving me to continue where I left off. I feel I would be doing a great service to others by providing this information about Old Orthodoxy in English for the first time but I also personally need a resolution. It is relatively easy to show the antiquity and legitimacy of the Orthodox Old Rite practices, texts, and customs; that what is categorised as Old Rite was not simply the product of superstition, copyists errors, or medieval innovations. But to discover, understand , and explain why the Old Believers insist that it was not they who entered into schism but the rest of the Orthodox world through accepting and teaching error; that it is a matter of dogma, Right dividing the Word of Truth, and then determine the veracity of their claims is a far more difficult but worthwhile undertaking!
To give credit where it is due to Paul Meyendorff's book "Russia, Ritual and Reform:The Liturgical Reforms of Nikon in the 17th Century" https://www.amazon.com/Russia-Ritual-Reform-Liturgical-Reforms/dp/088141090X which was originally written and still available in English provides a great deal of detailed and well documented info and sources proving that the Nikonian Reforms were simply the copying of Greek books printed in Venice but he does not deal with the canonical, conciliar or patristic basis for the Old Believers contention that the Reforms Patriarch Nikon introduced and the Anathemas against the Old Rite promulgated by the [robber] sobor of 1666-1667 were a departure from Orthodoxy.
 Also for those interested St.Avvakums AutoHagiography is available in English here
https://www.amazon.com/Archpriest-Avvakum-written-Michigan-Translations/dp/0930042336]]https://www.amazon.com/Archpriest-Avvakum-written-Michigan-Translations/dp/0930042336
And Fr.Matthew Raphael Johnson's "Sobornosti: Essays on the Old Faith" which provides in English for the first time I know of an alternative pro-Old Believer perspective as the natural organic reaction to the "hi-jacking" of the Russian Church particularly from the time of Tsar Peter forward is available here
http://www.lulu.com/shop/matthew-raphael-johnson/sobornosti-essays-on-the-old-faith/ebook/product-17422888.html

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #399 on: July 06, 2016, 11:11:02 AM »
I recognize the Old Rite represents the Orthodox rite as it was brought to the Church of Rus'. I also agree that the reforms of Nikon et al were uncalled for and the persecution of dissenters was unjust. However, there is the assumption embedded in your narrative that the Old Rite represented a universal Orthodox Christian tradition that was overthrown throughout the Orthodox world until it only survived in Russia. This is wrong on a number of levels. First of all, there was a diversity of rites in the undivided church and the Constantinopolitan rite, a version of which was imported to Rus', was not universal even in the east. There were local rites of Alexandria, Jerusalem, Antioch, etc. which were suppressed or faded out gradually due to the dominance of Constantinople. And there was diversity within the Constantinopolitan rite (e.g. Cathedral rite vs monastic rite), so simply saying, "these prayers are different from what they used to be" or "this prosphora seal is different" doesn't argue either way for the orthodoxy of a given practice. There were clearly a number of developing parallel traditions throughout the church, including the way the sign of the cross was made. 

I also don't see much from the history of the Church of Rus' that encourages me to point to it as the gold standard of Orthodoxy at any period in time. Instability prevailed there just as anywhere else. When can Holy Russia be located in time? The Baptism of Rus', when Christianity was the religion of the elite and the masses were pagan? The Tatar Yoke? The rise of Muscovy, when serfdom was established and the church was corrupted by enormous landholdings? This is not to deny the presence of real holiness in the church of Russia, but often it was represented by dissenters and outcasts- Sts Nil Sorsky, Maximus the Greek, etc.

The "New Rite" should never have been imposed on the Church of Russia, but how much of it was actually new is hard to say. Many of the differences may have developed from parallel ancient traditions.
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“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #400 on: July 06, 2016, 11:45:25 AM »
I recognize the Old Rite represents the Orthodox rite as it was brought to the Church of Rus'. I also agree that the reforms of Nikon et al were uncalled for and the persecution of dissenters was unjust. However, there is the assumption embedded in your narrative that the Old Rite represented a universal Orthodox Christian tradition that was overthrown throughout the Orthodox world until it only survived in Russia. This is wrong on a number of levels. First of all, there was a diversity of rites in the undivided church and the Constantinopolitan rite, a version of which was imported to Rus', was not universal even in the east. There were local rites of Alexandria, Jerusalem, Antioch, etc. which were suppressed or faded out gradually due to the dominance of Constantinople. And there was diversity within the Constantinopolitan rite (e.g. Cathedral rite vs monastic rite), so simply saying, "these prayers are different from what they used to be" or "this prosphora seal is different" doesn't argue either way for the orthodoxy of a given practice. There were clearly a number of developing parallel traditions throughout the church, including the way the sign of the cross was made. 

I also don't see much from the history of the Church of Rus' that encourages me to point to it as the gold standard of Orthodoxy at any period in time. Instability prevailed there just as anywhere else. When can Holy Russia be located in time? The Baptism of Rus', when Christianity was the religion of the elite and the masses were pagan? The Tatar Yoke? The rise of Muscovy, when serfdom was established and the church was corrupted by enormous landholdings? This is not to deny the presence of real holiness in the church of Russia, but often it was represented by dissenters and outcasts- Sts Nil Sorsky, Maximus the Greek, etc.

The "New Rite" should never have been imposed on the Church of Russia, but how much of it was actually new is hard to say. Many of the differences may have developed from parallel ancient traditions.


+1

as usual, spot on
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #401 on: July 06, 2016, 11:58:53 AM »
The general scholarly idea seems to be that the Old Rite practices were authentic even for Byzantine practice, and that, unluckily, Nikon's Greek consultants came to Russia soon after a new recension of rites and practices in Greece. All sides remained unaware of the bad timing, however; it's only been uncovered by much later research.

However, Orthodoxy is not defined by rites, or not by rites alone. Orthodoxy is holy, Apostolic, catholic. If one reads or listens to much Old Believer ecclesiology, one soon gets a strong impression of separatism for its own sake, of apocalyptic cynicism for the Church on earth at all, and of the elevation of the legal far above anything else -- and these are not the traits of Orthodoxy. (The evocation is rather that of Donatism.)

In sum, it is not enough, for the Christian Church, to be right as to fact in an instance of tumultuous disagreement; to be Christian is to be more than "right," but full of grace and truth.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 12:02:56 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #402 on: July 06, 2016, 12:05:06 PM »
The general scholarly idea seems to be that the Old Rite practices were authentic even for Byzantine practice, and that, unluckily, Nikon's Greek consultants came to Russia soon after a new recension of rites and practices in Greece. All sides remained unaware of the bad timing, however; it's only been uncovered by much later research.

However, Orthodoxy is not defined by rites, or not by rites alone. Orthodoxy is holy, Apostolic, catholic. If one reads or listens to much Old Believer ecclesiology, one soon gets a strong impression of separatism for its own sake, of apocalyptic cynicism for the Church on earth at all, and of the elevation of the legal far above anything else -- and these are not the traits of Orthodoxy. (The evocation is rather that of Donatism.)

In sum, it is not enough, for the Christian Church, to be right as to fact in an instance of tumultuous disagreement; to be Christian is to be more than "right," but full of grace and truth.


And everything they did after the 'mistake' happens when your government decides to hunt you down like animals.....rather than allowing for the difference in practices.

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #403 on: July 06, 2016, 12:12:32 PM »
The general scholarly idea seems to be that the Old Rite practices were authentic even for Byzantine practice, and that, unluckily, Nikon's Greek consultants came to Russia soon after a new recension of rites and practices in Greece. All sides remained unaware of the bad timing, however; it's only been uncovered by much later research.

However, Orthodoxy is not defined by rites, or not by rites alone. Orthodoxy is holy, Apostolic, catholic. If one reads or listens to much Old Believer ecclesiology, one soon gets a strong impression of separatism for its own sake, of apocalyptic cynicism for the Church on earth at all, and of the elevation of the legal far above anything else -- and these are not the traits of Orthodoxy. (The evocation is rather that of Donatism.)

In sum, it is not enough, for the Christian Church, to be right as to fact in an instance of tumultuous disagreement; to be Christian is to be more than "right," but full of grace and truth.


And everything they did after the 'mistake' happens when your government decides to hunt you down like animals.....rather than allowing for the difference in practices.

What became of Old Believers is entirely understandable and excusable from a human standpoint. The religion I grew up in has a very similar history of use by the Western church (granted, in their case they really asked for it), and the outcome was much the same. It's human nature to respond to being beaten down with defensiveness and to become reactionary. Everyone I know has the greatest sympathy for the Old Believers and their history.

That said, if there is going to be progress toward Church unity, ecclesiology of the sort I was outlining above can never serve as the vehicle for it -- it is crafted for just the opposite purpose, to encourage and sustain a sect in disunity.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #404 on: July 06, 2016, 12:17:16 PM »
The general scholarly idea seems to be that the Old Rite practices were authentic even for Byzantine practice, and that, unluckily, Nikon's Greek consultants came to Russia soon after a new recension of rites and practices in Greece. All sides remained unaware of the bad timing, however; it's only been uncovered by much later research.

However, Orthodoxy is not defined by rites, or not by rites alone. Orthodoxy is holy, Apostolic, catholic. If one reads or listens to much Old Believer ecclesiology, one soon gets a strong impression of separatism for its own sake, of apocalyptic cynicism for the Church on earth at all, and of the elevation of the legal far above anything else -- and these are not the traits of Orthodoxy. (The evocation is rather that of Donatism.)

In sum, it is not enough, for the Christian Church, to be right as to fact in an instance of tumultuous disagreement; to be Christian is to be more than "right," but full of grace and truth.


And everything they did after the 'mistake' happens when your government decides to hunt you down like animals.....rather than allowing for the difference in practices.

What became of Old Believers is entirely understandable and excusable from a human standpoint. The religion I grew up in has a very similar history of use by the Western church (granted, in their case they really asked for it), and the outcome was much the same. It's human nature to respond to being beaten down with defensiveness and to become reactionary. Everyone I know has the greatest sympathy for the Old Believers and their history.

That said, if there is going to be progress toward Church unity, ecclesiology of the sort I was outlining above can never serve as the vehicle for it -- it is crafted for just the opposite purpose, to encourage and sustain a sect in disunity.

the OB were not upset they were not invited to the council....they in fact likely dont give a bleep bleep about the Orthodoxy you or I belong to.   

Maybe we could work on unity among those who profess to WANT it first.,....
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.