Author Topic: Old Believers and Orthodoxy  (Read 38038 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Hopeful Faithful

  • How can there be any earthly consecrated orthodox bishops during the age of this Great Apostasy?
  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 253
  • An Old Faith Flag
    • Stranniki
  • Faith: Russian old Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Stranniki
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #315 on: April 23, 2015, 03:55:15 AM »
Greetings and good health.

[snip]Do you realize how offensive that remark is when Chriatians are being killed for Christ in the Middle East today?...

Let us do a fact check on this part for now, as it is late, and other parts of this post can be dealt with more completely another time.

I assume, and would be glad to be corrected if I am wrong, that you are talking about the Coptic Christians, if I spell that title correctly, we all make mistakes, pardon me, I want to be gracious, truly.

But the reality as I documented and referenced it, about Coptic Christians, is that in the first century, yes way back then at what might be called the beginning, Coptic's took to themselves hordes of slaves and forcibly castrated the men (ouch), 90% of whom immediately bled to death, many more died of infection later, and the Coptic Christians still managed to sell thousands of these mutilated men off to pagans, making for themselves what I think of as heaps of blood money...

No, forgive me for breathing, but I disbelieve that Coptic's were ever anything like a Christian.

May the Lord have mercy on us all, for real.

forgive me any offenses, and we all know offenses


HIS Judgment Cometh, And That Right Soon! Mark 13:35

If any man be ignorant, let him alone be ignorant (at his own peril). 1 Cor. 14:38

Let us all hope to be found a faithful, loving bond-slave of Christ on the soon approaching Last Day.

Offline wgw

  • All scorpions must DIE!!!
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,816
  • This icon is of St. Athansius.
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #316 on: April 23, 2015, 04:06:44 AM »
In the first century there were very few Coptic speaking Christians, and there was no schism at the time between them and any other Christians.  The schism occurred in the fifth century.  And even if the story you cite is true, and I haven't heard it, there were many incidents of cruelty between the two sides of the Chalcedonian schism and it was a dark era for the Church as a whole.  Bit what I will say is that two of the dearest Chriatians I've met were a ROCOR Archimandrite and a Coptic hegumen, both of whom radiated love and cared for me in the past, providing me with healing sacraments.  And so for you to say what you said about the Copts who were just killed in Libya, and the Ethiopians who have now joined them in receiving crowns of martyrdom, makes me weep, because the Coptic people are as decent Chrostians as any, and have always been deeply generous and kind to me, and presently I attend a Coptic parish as the nearest Syriac one is too far (for that matter so is the nearest Eastern Orthodox, I go to whichever church is closest to me).

So for the moment, I am by affiliation of not ethnicity a Coptic Christian, and you have deeply hurt my feelings, because I go to church with these people and feel their deep pain and suffering over what is happening to their brethren, in addition to their great love for me, a total outsider who shares no common ethnic or linguistic or cultural heritage with them.

And that's just intolerably mean what you're saying there about the Copts and the Coptic martyrs.

 :'(

Now if I've said something you find as offensive about the Old Believers, God forgive me, but regarding Kitezh I cannot accept that it exists or fits into Gods plan for our salvation without more evidence and a better theological explanation, which I have asked for, and which has not been forthcoming.

And what really hurts me is if you read through this thread I have historically been on your side; I've been trying to defend the Old Believers on the grounds of the injustice they endured, and Ive asked numerous questions in a sincere effort to better understand their faith, and I've repeatedly declared my belief in their Orthodoxy, even in that of the priestless ones.  So I just don't understand how you could say such a mean thing about my coreligionists.   If we castrated some Chalcedonians and sold them as slaves during the Dark Ages, God forgive us, but today the Coptic church is a friend to all the Orthodox and is being killed.  As for the Ethiopians, historically they were under the Coptic patriarch, but have their own distinct liturgy and pious customs and iconography, and have been autocephalous since the 1950s.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 04:21:51 AM by wgw »
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline Hopeful Faithful

  • How can there be any earthly consecrated orthodox bishops during the age of this Great Apostasy?
  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 253
  • An Old Faith Flag
    • Stranniki
  • Faith: Russian old Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Stranniki
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #317 on: April 23, 2015, 04:16:47 AM »
In the first century there were very few Coptic speaking Chroatians, and there was no schism at the time between them and any other Christians.  The schism occurred in the fifth century.  And even if the story you cite is true, and I haven't heard it, there were many incidents of cruelty between the two sides of the Chalcedonian schism and it was a dark era for the Church as a whole.  Bit what I will say is that two of the dearest Chriatians I've met were a ROCOR Archimandrite and a Coptic hegumen, both of whom radiated love and cared for me in the past, providing me with healing sacraments.  And so for you to say what you said about the Copts who were just killed in Libya, and the Ethiopians who have now joined them in receiving crowns of martyrdom, makes me weep, because the Coptic people are as decent Chrostians as any, and have always been deeply generous and kind to me, and presently I attend a Coptic parish as the nearest Syriac one is too far (for that matter so is the nearest Eastern Orthodox, I go to whichever church is closest to me).

So for the moment, I am by affiliation of not ethnicity a Coptic Christian, and you have deeply hurt my feelings, because I go to church with these people and feel their deep pain and suffering over what is happening to their brethren, in addition to their great love for me, a total outsider who shares no common ethnic or linguistic or cultural heritage with them.

And that's just intolerably mean what you're saying there about the Copts and the Coptic martyrs.

 :'(

Now if I've said something you find as offensive about the Old Believers, God forgive me, but regarding Kitezh I cannot accept that it exists or fits into Gods plan for our salvation without more evidence and a better theological explanation, which I have asked for, and which has not been forthcoming.

I simply do not see all the ducks being in such a neat row as this quote shows everyone.

Join the crowd of those with tears, may we all have good ones, for there is such a thing as false ones.

The good news is that the Lord will arrive soon and it will indeed all be settled then.
HIS Judgment Cometh, And That Right Soon! Mark 13:35

If any man be ignorant, let him alone be ignorant (at his own peril). 1 Cor. 14:38

Let us all hope to be found a faithful, loving bond-slave of Christ on the soon approaching Last Day.

Offline wgw

  • All scorpions must DIE!!!
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,816
  • This icon is of St. Athansius.
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #318 on: April 23, 2015, 04:35:29 AM »
Are you now saying my tears over the Coptic martyrs and the cruel and frankly racist thing you said about them are false?  I am reaching the point where I can't comtinue this conversation with you as you're just making exceptionally cruel remarks with impunity.  It's horrifying, and I'm shocked, because historically your comments here have suggested a peaceful and loving nature, and I just find it hard to believe you could even write such cruelties.

I am quite literally in tears because of what you've said.  It's absolutely intolerable.

I'm prepared to consider evidence for the existence of Kitzeh and how the exostence of such a city fits into Orthodox soteriology but I can't stand this hate speech regarding the Coptic people.

You ask in your posts forgiveness for any offenses, so fine, consider yourself forgiven by me, but I just hope you understand the scale of the offence these remarks caused and repent accordingly.  Because you insulted two Orthodox churches, and three ethnoreligious groups of Chroatians, the Copts, Ethiopians and Eritreans, in a manner that could be considered racist, a combined population of more than 60 million of your brothers and sisters in Chriat, and more than 50 martyrs this year alone.   These people were shot for confessing Jesus Christ as their Lord, and our Lord promises that any who do that, he will confess before the father in Heaven, so I ask the intercession of these martyrs that Gpd will have mercy on me on the dreadful day of judgement, the impending arrival of which is not in any sense good news for a wretched sinner like myself.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 04:38:27 AM by wgw »
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline Hopeful Faithful

  • How can there be any earthly consecrated orthodox bishops during the age of this Great Apostasy?
  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 253
  • An Old Faith Flag
    • Stranniki
  • Faith: Russian old Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Stranniki
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #319 on: April 23, 2015, 04:38:43 AM »
Now if I've said something you find as offensive about the Old Believers, God forgive me, but regarding Kitezh I cannot accept that it exists or fits into Gods plan for our salvation without more evidence and a better theological explanation, which I have asked for, and which has not been forthcoming.

More good news, God forgives.

Second, patience, good things arrive for people who wait.

If the Lord gives me the time, I will spend days compiling for you irrufutable and undeniable evidences, facts and the truth for the idea of Kitezh. Only very recently have I noticed your question, like the last day or so, honestly. I have had the most interesting studies in this area for decades, and at a level that I am sure few have ever been at. It makes me cry, believe me, it is not a boast. But I am also happy.

This sounds mysterious, I am sure, and being open is something necessary for me. So I will explain that at the age of 14, almost forty years ago, the government of the USA found that they could use me and my skills, or talents and they hired me, my first real job, a librarian assistant of all things. So, my experience with it began back then in that manner, hopefully lifting some mystery, perhaps adding a little at the same time.

Oh, I happen to have an existence outside the Internet, so we all might have to wait a bit longer for my response on this.

Be careful what you pray for.

forgive me, your hopeful brother
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 04:39:37 AM by Hopeful Faithful »
HIS Judgment Cometh, And That Right Soon! Mark 13:35

If any man be ignorant, let him alone be ignorant (at his own peril). 1 Cor. 14:38

Let us all hope to be found a faithful, loving bond-slave of Christ on the soon approaching Last Day.

Offline Rhinosaur

  • Homo Vivius
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 978
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodoxy
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #320 on: April 23, 2015, 04:46:36 AM »
Kitezh is incredibly Lovecraftian.  I have the image of Orthodox tentacled monsters under the sea.

Offline Hopeful Faithful

  • How can there be any earthly consecrated orthodox bishops during the age of this Great Apostasy?
  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 253
  • An Old Faith Flag
    • Stranniki
  • Faith: Russian old Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Stranniki
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #321 on: April 23, 2015, 04:53:53 AM »
I can't stand this hate speech regarding the Coptic people.

The truth is not hate.

the rift between Rome and the Copts was not healed. .... that all boys at the monastery were castrated at about the age of 8
http://www.circlist.com/rites/christian.html

Coptic priests sliced the penis and testicles off boys around the age of eight in a castration operation. The eunuch boys were then sold in the Ottoman Empire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_Ottoman_Empire

I would offer much more, but that is more than adequate.

Let us stop this line of discussion, it is settled.

forgive


HIS Judgment Cometh, And That Right Soon! Mark 13:35

If any man be ignorant, let him alone be ignorant (at his own peril). 1 Cor. 14:38

Let us all hope to be found a faithful, loving bond-slave of Christ on the soon approaching Last Day.

Offline Hopeful Faithful

  • How can there be any earthly consecrated orthodox bishops during the age of this Great Apostasy?
  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 253
  • An Old Faith Flag
    • Stranniki
  • Faith: Russian old Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Stranniki
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #322 on: April 23, 2015, 04:57:52 AM »
Kitezh is incredibly Lovecraftian.  I have the image of Orthodox tentacled monsters under the sea.

Those two women you show so sinfully photographed offer only every form of immodesty, a shame for certain.

I promise, this site will be stopped.

Say what you feel you must about Kitezh, that is your prerogative for the time being.


HIS Judgment Cometh, And That Right Soon! Mark 13:35

If any man be ignorant, let him alone be ignorant (at his own peril). 1 Cor. 14:38

Let us all hope to be found a faithful, loving bond-slave of Christ on the soon approaching Last Day.

Offline wgw

  • All scorpions must DIE!!!
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,816
  • This icon is of St. Athansius.
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #323 on: April 23, 2015, 04:59:43 AM »
Now if I've said something you find as offensive about the Old Believers, God forgive me, but regarding Kitezh I cannot accept that it exists or fits into Gods plan for our salvation without more evidence and a better theological explanation, which I have asked for, and which has not been forthcoming.

More good news, God forgives.

Second, patience, good things arrive for people who wait.

If the Lord gives me the time, I will spend days compiling for you irrufutable and undeniable evidences, facts and the truth for the idea of Kitezh. Only very recently have I noticed your question, like the last day or so, honestly. I have had the most interesting studies in this area for decades, and at a level that I am sure few have ever been at. It makes me cry, believe me, it is not a boast. But I am also happy.

This sounds mysterious, I am sure, and being open is something necessary for me. So I will explain that at the age of 14, almost forty years ago, the government of the USA found that they could use me and my skills, or talents and they hired me, my first real job, a librarian assistant of all things. So, my experience with it began back then in that manner, hopefully lifting some mystery, perhaps adding a little at the same time.

Oh, I happen to have an existence outside the Internet, so we all might have to wait a bit longer for my response on this.

Be careful what you pray for.

forgive me, your hopeful brother


But are you going to address the horrible calumny you threw at the Coptic Christians?  Because I could pull up any number of atrocities committed by the Chalcedonians prior to the Nikonian schism against the Oriental Orthodox, and vice versa, and I could also bring up any number of atrocities committed by the pre-Nikonian Russian Orthodox Church, for example, during the spat between the Jospephites and the Non Posessors.  And frankly your boast of doing secretarial work for the IS government at the age of 14 is not adding to your credibility here.   You made an incredibly offensive comment and I'm asking you as a fellow Chroatian to retract it, begging you even.  You reduced me to tears.

And "be careful what you pray for"; what's that supposed to mean?  Are you implying that if I seek the intercession of the recent Coptic and Ethiopian martyrs I'll be damned?  Do you have any idea how cruel, horrible, racist and ugly that statement looks?

One of the Coptic martyrs was a Ghaniana, probabaly already a Christian, who said "their God is my God."  He may not even have intended to join the Coptic church with that remark but simply do-identify with them as a fellow Chriatian.  I used to live in Ghana.  From what I understand both the Greek and Coptic Patriarchates have a thriving presence there; Ghana is the most Christian country I've ever been to, in spite of having a large Muslim minority.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Online Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Section Moderator
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,313
  • You don't need global warming to drown in books.
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #324 on: April 23, 2015, 05:00:17 AM »
I promise, this site will be stopped.

Is that a threat?
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox

Offline Hopeful Faithful

  • How can there be any earthly consecrated orthodox bishops during the age of this Great Apostasy?
  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 253
  • An Old Faith Flag
    • Stranniki
  • Faith: Russian old Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Stranniki
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #325 on: April 23, 2015, 05:03:12 AM »
Is that a threat?

The Truth is no threat, what do you mean?

HIS Judgment Cometh, And That Right Soon! Mark 13:35

If any man be ignorant, let him alone be ignorant (at his own peril). 1 Cor. 14:38

Let us all hope to be found a faithful, loving bond-slave of Christ on the soon approaching Last Day.

Offline Rhinosaur

  • Homo Vivius
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 978
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodoxy
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #326 on: April 23, 2015, 05:04:31 AM »
Kitezh is incredibly Lovecraftian.  I have the image of Orthodox tentacled monsters under the sea.

Those two women you show so sinfully photographed offer only every form of immodesty, a shame for certain.

I promise, this site will be stopped.

Say what you feel you must about Kitezh, that is your prerogative for the time being.


How are they 'sinfully' attired?  Those are evening gowns.

Online Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,733
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #327 on: April 23, 2015, 05:04:39 AM »
One person with correct faith & worship has the fulness of the Church no matter where God has happened to place them. Everyone who follows Christ is expected to be a martyr (witness). So many people miss the whole point, how sad. Lord willing I will be back here another day.

No, Jesus said wherever two or three are gathered in His name. Christianity isn't meant to be a one man show.
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

Rome doesn't care. Rome is actually very cool guy.

Offline wgw

  • All scorpions must DIE!!!
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,816
  • This icon is of St. Athansius.
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #328 on: April 23, 2015, 05:05:09 AM »
I can't stand this hate speech regarding the Coptic people.

The truth is not hate.

the rift between Rome and the Copts was not healed. .... that all boys at the monastery were castrated at about the age of 8
http://www.circlist.com/rites/christian.html

Coptic priests sliced the penis and testicles off boys around the age of eight in a castration operation. The eunuch boys were then sold in the Ottoman Empire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_Ottoman_Empire

I would offer much more, but that is more than adequate.

Let us stop this line of discussion, it is settled.

forgive


That's pure calumny.  The Coptic hierarchy is opposed to female genital mutilation and castration.  And even if it were true it would in no respect diminish the crowns of martyrdom received by the Copts in Libya.  But I've studied Coptic monasticism at length and Ive never heard of the monastery referenced in the first article, and I would say shame on you for linking to such a disreputable source and using what is an isolated incident, that would come as news to most Copts, to smear them and call into question their Christianity.  It's just horrible and sickening what you're doing here.

Of the articles linked to from the Wikipedia page furthermore, all of them save one are references to pre-1920 material and I suspect it to be false or misattributed.

But your claim the Copts have been doing this since the first century is completely false.  I have read on articles discussing FGM, which the Coptic Church is opposed to, that circumcision only began among the Copts after the Islamic conquest, and even the libelous articles you linked to confirm that.  But aim the vast amount of material I've acquired on the history of Coptic monasticism I've never read of any Coptic monastery of the name given there or of Coptic monasteries practicing castration.  There are lots of people who say Ethiopian priests are masters of poisoning people, am I to believe that?  Furthermore, it's more than a trifle Rich for tout o bring this up given the existence of the Skoptsy among unbelievers.

But at any rate, if any Copts did participate in the Eunuch trade, they did so illicitly and without the consent of the church, for anyone familiar with the Aposrolic Canons and the other ancient canons knows that they forbid castration and liken it to self murder.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 05:12:29 AM by wgw »
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Online Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Section Moderator
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,313
  • You don't need global warming to drown in books.
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #329 on: April 23, 2015, 05:05:43 AM »
Is that a threat?

The Truth is no threat, what do you mean?

I'm asking what you mean by 'I promise, this site will be stopped'.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox

Offline Hopeful Faithful

  • How can there be any earthly consecrated orthodox bishops during the age of this Great Apostasy?
  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 253
  • An Old Faith Flag
    • Stranniki
  • Faith: Russian old Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Stranniki
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #330 on: April 23, 2015, 05:12:12 AM »
[snip]Because I could pull up any number of atrocities committed by the Chalcedonians prior to the Nikonian schism against the Oriental Orthodox, and vice versa, and I could also bring up any number of atrocities committed by the pre-Nikonian Russian Orthodox Church, for example, during the spat between the Jospephites and the Non Posessors.  And frankly your boast of doing secretarial work for the IS government ...

You are confused, it is the USA government, I was unable to help what they did to me then. Today I help no earthly government, but tirelessly work to help all people. About pulling up, be the guest of this somewhat open, but temporary forum, while it lasts.

HIS Judgment Cometh, And That Right Soon! Mark 13:35

If any man be ignorant, let him alone be ignorant (at his own peril). 1 Cor. 14:38

Let us all hope to be found a faithful, loving bond-slave of Christ on the soon approaching Last Day.

Online Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,733
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #331 on: April 23, 2015, 05:12:52 AM »
I can't stand this hate speech regarding the Coptic people.

The truth is not hate.

the rift between Rome and the Copts was not healed. .... that all boys at the monastery were castrated at about the age of 8
http://www.circlist.com/rites/christian.html

Coptic priests sliced the penis and testicles off boys around the age of eight in a castration operation. The eunuch boys were then sold in the Ottoman Empire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_Ottoman_Empire

I would offer much more, but that is more than adequate.

Let us stop this line of discussion, it is settled.

forgive


The things described in those sources are all relatively late in history and it isn't as if "Holy Russia" doesn't have its share of repugnant social practices.

Saying that the Copts were "never Christian" is hardly warranted. Sts Athanasius and Cyril were Copts. The early Fathers of monasticism were heavily Coptic.

Slavery and the making of eunuchs was everywhere in the Christian world until very recently so we can hardly sling mud at one another over that.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 05:13:33 AM by Volnutt »
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

Rome doesn't care. Rome is actually very cool guy.

Offline Hopeful Faithful

  • How can there be any earthly consecrated orthodox bishops during the age of this Great Apostasy?
  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 253
  • An Old Faith Flag
    • Stranniki
  • Faith: Russian old Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Stranniki
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #332 on: April 23, 2015, 05:14:30 AM »
I'm asking what you mean by 'I promise, this site will be stopped'.

Please dear one, I answered, and repeat.

The Truth is no threat.


HIS Judgment Cometh, And That Right Soon! Mark 13:35

If any man be ignorant, let him alone be ignorant (at his own peril). 1 Cor. 14:38

Let us all hope to be found a faithful, loving bond-slave of Christ on the soon approaching Last Day.

Online Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Section Moderator
  • Merarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,313
  • You don't need global warming to drown in books.
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #333 on: April 23, 2015, 05:17:05 AM »
I'm asking what you mean by 'I promise, this site will be stopped'.

Please dear one, I answered, and repeat.

The Truth is no threat.


That is not an answer to my question. This is an official moderator request. Be straightforward.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox

Offline wgw

  • All scorpions must DIE!!!
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,816
  • This icon is of St. Athansius.
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #334 on: April 23, 2015, 05:17:35 AM »
Well St. Athanasius was probably Greek, but St. Anthony the Great, along with Ss. Macarius, Pachomius and all the Desert Fathers, were Coptic.  St. Cyril may have been Greek but he translated the Divine Liturgy of St. Mark into Coptic and began services in Coptic to better cater to the Egyptian population according to tradition.

So yes indeed, even if a few bad apples participated in the Eunuch trade, they are infinitely offset by St. Anthony the Great, who was throughly Coptic; if memory serves he did not even speak Greek. 
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline wgw

  • All scorpions must DIE!!!
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,816
  • This icon is of St. Athansius.
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #335 on: April 23, 2015, 05:20:47 AM »
I'm asking what you mean by 'I promise, this site will be stopped'.

Please dear one, I answered, and repeat.

The Truth is no threat.


Arachne, please pardon me if this question in any respect steals your thunder. 

HopefulFaithful, What Arachne I believe is asking you is if you intend to do something to cause this forum to go offline.

 In other words, are you intending to conduct a denial of service attack or some other action that would disrupt the operation of this site?  Or are you aware of and/or encouraging someone else to engage in such a course of action?

Arachne, again, my apologies if I have stolen any of your moderatorial thunder; HopefulFaithful has an unusual way of responding to questions and saying things and I'm just trying to help you by asking the question in another, more direct way, also leaning a bit on my background as a network engineer who routinely has to deal with people trying to disrupt websites.

« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 05:24:13 AM by wgw »
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline wgw

  • All scorpions must DIE!!!
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,816
  • This icon is of St. Athansius.
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #336 on: April 23, 2015, 05:56:28 AM »
I can't stand this hate speech regarding the Coptic people.

The truth is not hate.

the rift between Rome and the Copts was not healed. .... that all boys at the monastery were castrated at about the age of 8
http://www.circlist.com/rites/christian.html

Coptic priests sliced the penis and testicles off boys around the age of eight in a castration operation. The eunuch boys were then sold in the Ottoman Empire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_Ottoman_Empire

I would offer much more, but that is more than adequate.

Let us stop this line of discussion, it is settled.

forgive


Firstly, I would, again without wishing to steal her Thunder, urge you to immediately answer Arachnes question.

But beyond that, this point is far from settled.  Let's say the links you provided are genuine and that there was a Coptic monastery doing this.  Well that's one monastery out of about 20 or so, and one so obscure I've never heard of it.  And thus just a handful of priests and the abbot, and monks, very possibly acting without the approval of the Patriarch, because if such a monastery became a reliable supply of eunuchs to the Ottomans, they probabaly wouldn't even let the Coptic Pope shut it down, but would protect it and keep it open to meet their needs.

Now how does this invalidate the Holimess of the monks at the other Copric monasteries like St. Anthonys, who were not doing that and who would likely be horrified by it, or of the Coptic faithful, or of the Wrhiopiqns, who in those days desired autocephaly and were denied it, as the governor of Egypt would not let the Coptic Pope appoint enough bishops to the Ethiopian church to make them autocephalous?  How does this mitigate the tortures inflicted on Coptic people caught speaking Coptic, namely, the forced removal of their tongue, which led to the Copts being compelled to speak Arabic?   How does this negate the Holimess of St. Anthony and the Deswet Fathers, or before their time, the numerous Coptic martyrs of the Decian and Diocletian persecutions?   And how does it in any respect affect the Christianity of the ten million Egyptian Copts alive today, who are opposed to castration and who would be scandalized by the idea of Copric monks castrating boys?  The Coptic hierarchy has been actively working to stamp out FGM furthermore a,ong the more primitive tribes of Copts in Upper Egypt who still practice it as a result of Islamic influence.

And how does this in any respect deprecate or invalidate the Christian martyrdom of the Coptic martyrs and the Ethiopian martyrs in Libya?  For that matter, consider how in Mosul the Islamic State forcibly circumcised all the Christian men and boys without anaesthesia (Syriac Christians historically do not practice circumcision, and I believe the same is true of the Armenians).

And given the Skoptsy, how does this matter at all?  Also, consider the horrible tortures the Muscovite regime was notorious for inflicting on her subjects from the start, unlike Kievan Rus, which lacked the death penalty.  Consider the knout, and the cruel penalties established by Ivan the Terrible, who was technically an Old Believer.

So in no sense do I see this being resolved.  You made what amounted to a racist attack against the Copts and then attempted to back it up with dubious and irrelevant historical material about castration in the Ottoman Empire.  If every Christian church were to lose its Christianity based on one evil from the past, there would be no Orthodox Christian churches left, as we all have skeletons in our closets, where we have failed to live up to the standard set by our Lord.  Consider the burning of Priscillian in 389; St. Ambrose and other bishops tried to stop it, but without success, and a heretic was burned at the stake, and all extant churches with apostolic succession bear some guilt for that action of Theodosius, which predated the Nestorian Schism, the Chalcedonian Schism, the Great Schism and the Nikonian Schism.   Everyone has egg on their face over the death of Priscillian, which set a terrible example, leading to the auto da fes and indeed the execution of Old Believers.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline Hopeful Faithful

  • How can there be any earthly consecrated orthodox bishops during the age of this Great Apostasy?
  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 253
  • An Old Faith Flag
    • Stranniki
  • Faith: Russian old Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Stranniki
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #337 on: April 23, 2015, 06:17:10 AM »
The things described in those sources are all relatively late in history and it isn't as if "Holy Russia" doesn't have its share of repugnant social practices.

Saying that the Copts were "never Christian" is hardly warranted. Sts Athanasius and Cyril were Copts. The early Fathers of monasticism were heavily Coptic.

Slavery and the making of eunuchs was everywhere in the Christian world until very recently so we can hardly sling mud at one another over that.

I observe your comment, and thank you.

It was not my intention to give a complete reference to history, but here is one earlier reference off the cuff.

This practice was first documented in Egyptian Coptic monasteries, where already in the fourth century boys were castrated (page 42)
http://www.academia.edu/2384971/Voices_from_the_South_Music_Castration_and_the_Displacement_of_the_Eye

I have more on the 1st century history regarding the earlier mentioned specifics, but later, please.

I am interested to talk about repugnant Holy Russia, which really did not begin until its fall, if I understand its history, but the devil is in the details as they say.

About Sts Athanasius and Cyril and the early Fathers of monasticism being heavily Coptic, I understand what you say, but would make the case that what makes them all Saints and Fathers was their isolationism from the type of atrocities mentioned. Of course, the little flock of the people of God are from all people, including Coptic. But I was earlier speaking of a more general meaning. Few go to Heaven, but generally, not at all. This goes for all earthly nations. I hope this clarifies that.

As the Seven Ecumenical Councils strictly forbids mutilation of the body, it is a bold error to suggest that any true Christian made eunuchs. No Christian or any people of God ever did or do such a thing ever, such are honestly not being Christian at all. It is past slinging mud to say that any Christian did so, believe me, it is not Christian. I cannot believe even the suggestion, totally unbelievable, unacceptable, pure nonsense.

It will be next week before I return here, if ever, email me if something is important.

My time will be spent cultivating goodness towards all people, not hate.

I hate evil.

Everything is mixed up and confused here, it is obviously intentional.

It would be nice to see things clarified.

But alas, I really have more important things to do.

forgive me, I do make mistakes all the time


« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 06:18:20 AM by Hopeful Faithful »
HIS Judgment Cometh, And That Right Soon! Mark 13:35

If any man be ignorant, let him alone be ignorant (at his own peril). 1 Cor. 14:38

Let us all hope to be found a faithful, loving bond-slave of Christ on the soon approaching Last Day.

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,916
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #338 on: April 23, 2015, 06:19:00 AM »
For the record, I believe in Kitezh.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Online Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,733
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #339 on: April 23, 2015, 06:31:08 AM »
If you acknowledge that all nations commit atrocities and have few saved, what is the point of your comment about them "never having been Christian?" From that point of view there is no such thing as a "people of God." This is the kind of silliness that comes from claiming that any ethnicity can be inherently holy.

As for sins of Russia, serfdom reached it's worst forms 100 years before Nikon.

Muscovite Russia always had a cruel penal system, as wgw points out.

The Dormostroi permits men to beat their wives.

Allegedly Christian princes constantly murdered and intrigued with one another, as everywhere else in "Christian" Europe.

The raping and pillaging ways of the Cossacks and their virulent anti-Semitism were constantly tolerated and used by the Tsars.

Monasteries operated as political prisons for the rulers and owned their own serfs.

Even when the peasants weren't serfs, they were constantly burdened by insanely high levels of taxation.

Most of the princes, including St. Alexander Nevsky at times, were collaborators with the exploiting, Muslim Mongol Horde.


I would also point out on the subject of eunuchs, that the Byzantine Emperors constantly kept them no matter what the canons said.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 06:43:00 AM by Volnutt »
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

Rome doesn't care. Rome is actually very cool guy.

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,011
  • Unbreakable! He's alive, dammit! It's a MIRACLE!
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: Candle-lighting Cross Kisser
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #340 on: April 23, 2015, 06:41:53 AM »
Everything is mixed up and confused here, it is obviously intentional.

It would be nice to see things clarified.

But alas, I really have more important things to do.

forgive me, I do make mistakes all the time

It is intentional.  You're the one doing it in this thread.

No one makes you post here.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 06:43:01 AM by hecma925 »
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline podkarpatska

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,732
  • Pokrov
    • ACROD (home)
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #341 on: April 23, 2015, 02:07:43 PM »
I have reevaluated my nomination of this thread for weird thread of the decade. Clearly the breadth, scope and utter seriousness in the face of abject absurdity found here is epic.

Underwater priests and bishops, castration and genital mutilation all in one topic. Thank God this isn't in the Convert board.

Oh yes, AND turtles!

All time weird thread, anyone?
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 02:08:32 PM by podkarpatska »

Offline wgw

  • All scorpions must DIE!!!
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,816
  • This icon is of St. Athansius.
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #342 on: April 23, 2015, 02:39:27 PM »
Indeed, seriously, if I thought this is what Orthodoxy was about I would have gone running the other way screaming.   As it is I'm really hoping that faith in R'lyeh, err, Kitezh, is not a normal aspect of Old Believer piety.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,916
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #343 on: April 23, 2015, 02:44:15 PM »
Frankly I don't understand why Kitezh is getting so much mockery here. You can find plenty of equally odd things happening in the Bible, the lives of the saints, etc.

You don't have to believe in Kitezh to be Orthodox but don't pretend that you are somehow above it.

And, by the way, the legend of Kitezh is an inheritance of all Orthodox Christians, not just old believers.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline wgw

  • All scorpions must DIE!!!
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,816
  • This icon is of St. Athansius.
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #344 on: April 23, 2015, 02:58:06 PM »
Not really,,given the legend first appeared in an 18th century publication attributed to the Old Believers.   It's certainly in no sense an inheritance of the Oriental Orthodox like myself, and given its obscurity I think it's entirely unfair to say it's part of the general inheritance of Eastern Orthodox or even Russian Orthodox Christians; surely the vast majority who have even heard of it regard it as a fairy tale, like Rimsky-Korsakov.  I don't see how Kitezh is anything other than a dangerous fantasy that if believed reorders the relationship between God and Man established after the victory of our Lord over death.  How can one repent if one is born in a magical underwater city subject to special divine protection?  How can salvation happen without participating, as our Lord deigned to do, in the "human condition" with all its turmoil and strife?  And seriously, how do torches burn underwater, or people breathe?

At least my ancestor Bishop Wilkins, in an essay that actually predates the Kitezh myth by a few decades, proposed underwater colonies that would be equipped with life support systems.  It's embarrassing to see anyone connected with Orthodoxy propose people magically living underwater decades after an Anglican Bishop developed a serious technological proposal for underwater colonization, which remains the starting point for futurists like myself actually interested in building underwater cities.  But it's sad because the Byzantine Empire was historically so scientifically and technologically advanced, with the first modern hospitals developed by St. Basil the Great, and other technologies like Greek Fire, arguably the world's first super weapon, the exact formula of which remains a mystery to contemporary science.  Indeed Orthodoxy continued producing visionaries like Nikola Tesla.  So to see, in the 18th century,,the Age of Enlightenment, the propagation of such a silly and blasphemous fairy tale is a profound letdown.  I was deeply disappointed to read of Kitezh and I wish I remained in ignorance on the subject.

Note by the way, my family believes Bishop Wilkins to be Amomg our ancestors, a distant relation, but we are not 100% sure.   He's an interesting chap though and worth looking up.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 03:02:10 PM by wgw »
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline Antonis

  • Μέγα το Θαύμα!
  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,473
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #345 on: April 23, 2015, 03:00:07 PM »
Not really,,given the legend first appeared in an 18th century publication attributed to the Old Believers.  I don't see how Kitezh is anything other than a dangerous fantasy that if believed reorders the relationship between God and Man established after the victory of our Lord over death.  How can one repent if one is born in a magical underwater city subject to special divine protection?  How can salvation happen without participating, as our Lord deigned to do, in the "human condition" with all its turmoil and strife?  And seriously, how do torches burn underwater, or people breathe?

At least my ancestor Bishop Wilkins, in an essay that actually predates the Kitezh myth by a few decades, proposed underwater colonies that would be equipped with life support systems.  It's embarrassing to see anyone connected with Orthodoxy propose people magically living underwater decades after an Anglican Bishop developed a serious technological proposal for underwater colonization, which remains the starting point for futurists like myself actually interested in building underwater cities.  But it's sad because the Byzantine Empire was historically so scientifically and technologically advanced, with the first modern hospitals developed by St. Basil the Great, and other technologies like Greek Fire, arguably the world's first super weapon, the exact formula of which remains a mystery to contemporary science.  Indeed Orthodoxy continued producing visionaries like Nikola Tesla.  So to see, in the 18th century,,the Age of Enlightenment, the propagation of such a silly and blasphemous fairy tale is a profound letdown.  I was deeply disappointed to read of Kitezh and I wish I remained in ignorance on the subject.
Stop it. Please. Stop.
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

"The human being is earth that suffers."
Letter of Barnabas 6.9

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,916
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #346 on: April 23, 2015, 03:15:06 PM »
wgw, I presume, since you describe yourself as Orthodox, that you believe in things like Moses parting the red sea, Elijah flying into the sky on a fiery chariot, Jonah spending a few days in a giant fish, a dead guy rising after three days, and bread and wine becoming his actual flesh and blood.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline biro

  • Site Supporter
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,769
  • Excelsior
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #347 on: April 23, 2015, 03:38:21 PM »
I have reevaluated my nomination of this thread for weird thread of the decade. Clearly the breadth, scope and utter seriousness in the face of abject absurdity found here is epic.

Underwater priests and bishops, castration and genital mutilation all in one topic. Thank God this isn't in the Convert board.

Oh yes, AND turtles!

All time weird thread, anyone?

Certainly it's a nominee.  :o
My only weakness is, well, never mind

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,017
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South (OCA)
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #348 on: April 23, 2015, 04:11:39 PM »
I have reevaluated my nomination of this thread for weird thread of the decade. Clearly the breadth, scope and utter seriousness in the face of abject absurdity found here is epic.

Underwater priests and bishops, castration and genital mutilation all in one topic. Thank God this isn't in the Convert board.

Oh yes, AND turtles!

All time weird thread, anyone?

I agree and I am thinking that there may be something seriously wrong with Old Believers, if most of them are like the two that "graced" this discussion.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 32,618
  • Pope Pius XIII, play for us!
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #349 on: April 23, 2015, 04:19:30 PM »
I have reevaluated my nomination of this thread for weird thread of the decade. Clearly the breadth, scope and utter seriousness in the face of abject absurdity found here is epic.

Underwater priests and bishops, castration and genital mutilation all in one topic. Thank God this isn't in the Convert board.

Oh yes, AND turtles!

All time weird thread, anyone?

I agree and I am thinking that there may be something seriously wrong with Old Believers, if most of them are like the two that "graced" this discussion.

I love Hawkeye. 
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

Offline Minnesotan

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,329
  • Milo Thatch is the ONLY Milo for me. #FreeAtlantis
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #350 on: April 23, 2015, 04:42:31 PM »
wgw, I presume, since you describe yourself as Orthodox, that you believe in things like Moses parting the red sea, Elijah flying into the sky on a fiery chariot, Jonah spending a few days in a giant fish, a dead guy rising after three days, and bread and wine becoming his actual flesh and blood.

The difference is that none of these things are escapist in the same way Kitezh is. Jonah was swallowed by the giant fish because God wanted him to preach salvation to the Ninevites, not because God wanted to protect only him while raining his wrath down on everybody else and letting them all apostatize.
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 32,618
  • Pope Pius XIII, play for us!
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #351 on: April 23, 2015, 04:48:20 PM »
...not because God wanted to protect only him while raining his wrath down on everybody else and letting them all apostatize.

This is, more or less, a major part of the Old Testament.
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

Offline Rhinosaur

  • Homo Vivius
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 978
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodoxy
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #352 on: April 23, 2015, 05:07:54 PM »
All things are possible through God, and there are instances of God saving cities from seeming imminent destruction.  That being said, Kitezh has an aura of magic that doesn't seem to fit with the rest of Christian theology.  Yes, from the point of view of strict materialism, many of the miracles in Christianity do seem strange and illogical, but if one analyzes them from a Christian perspective, they all have a teachable element concerning salvation.  Kitezh, meanwhile, seems very escapist and eerie and doesn't fit with the theme of persevering in life until the end in faith and love.  It's ok as a nice little story but there's little to be gleaned from it spiritually, and to give it any sort of serious spiritual meaning (let alone making belief in it a prerequisite for being Orthodox) strikes me as somewhat similar to the insistence of some Catholics that belief in certain apparitions are necessary for one's faith, or some the belief among some Pentecostals who say that speaking in tongues is necessary for salvation.

Offline Antonis

  • Μέγα το Θαύμα!
  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,473
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #353 on: April 23, 2015, 06:16:05 PM »
I have reevaluated my nomination of this thread for weird thread of the decade. Clearly the breadth, scope and utter seriousness in the face of abject absurdity found here is epic.

Underwater priests and bishops, castration and genital mutilation all in one topic. Thank God this isn't in the Convert board.

Oh yes, AND turtles!

All time weird thread, anyone?

I agree and I am thinking that there may be something seriously wrong with Old Believers, if most of them are like the two that "graced" this discussion.
I would come to the same conclusion about us "mainstream" Orthodox if I used forumers as my standard.
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

"The human being is earth that suffers."
Letter of Barnabas 6.9

Offline wgw

  • All scorpions must DIE!!!
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,816
  • This icon is of St. Athansius.
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #354 on: April 23, 2015, 06:39:30 PM »
My main concern is there would be a difference in the soteriological condition and outcome of people in Kitzeh.  If I were a Calvinist I could accept Kitzeh with greater ease, because in a sense those living therein are foreordained to salvation.  I mean it would be very difficult not to be a part of the church in a magical underwater city where even respiration is presumably effected supernaturally, deus ex machina as it were.   I can't accept that God would create such a difference In soteriological potential.

 What is more, the words of our Lord suggest that were the town martyred, confessing Christ, it's residents would receive the crown of martyrdom, even the baptism of blood if unbaptized, and would be among the saints, being confessed before the father by our Lord.  They would be as blessed as the Coptic martyrs in Libya who now look down upon us from Heaven.  So accepting Kitezh throws a wrench in the whole Chrisrian theory of martyrdom and beyond that it almost seems to me to be insulting to actual martyrs, like the Mew Martyrs of Russia, the aforementioned Coptic martyrs, the victims of the Armenian Genocide, and so on; even the martyrdom of the Old Believers.  It's truly difficult to conceive what posessed one of them to fabricate this story, but we do know it to be false, given that it's first mentioned in an 18th century volume, and if this were a genuine miracle, we would expect to see an earlier textual witness to it.   

So from my perspective it's impossible to believe in this vs. the miraculous happenings that are a part of the Orthodox faith, like the Finding of the True Cross.    You can't point to any major saints who repeated this legend and you can identify the specific publication, the Chronicle of Kitezh, in which it emerged. Just like Atlantis in a sense, which we can say without a doubt was the work of Plato, and also featured a sunken city.   In fact, I would argue Kitezh is further falsified by the similarity of its story to the Atlantis legend that sprouted to impressive proportions from Plato's writings.

But regarding the items listed by iconodule, I can positively declare a belief in the real change of the a Eucharist and the potency thereof; regarding the events in the Old Testament I don't rigidly adhere to an Antiochene literalist interpretation but I see no reason to doubt they did occur, but I tend to read the Old Testament first and foremost from a Christological typological-prophetic and allegorical perspective.  So Jonah in the whale for example is a prophecy by type of the entombment of our Lord, first and foremost, ano there are other all.egorical layers to that story and indeed a bit of Semitic humor, in addition to the literal interpretation, but because many reputable fathers did believe it to be literally true, so do I.  But the literal truth in that case is rather less important; comparing that to the real change, for want of a better word, the transubstantiation, of the mysteries, is apples to oranges.   And Kitezh is in no respect a core belief.   I do believe the legends about St. Anthony withstanding demonic assaults because St. Athanasius recorded them, and also gave us our Biblical canon, and I trust St. Athanasius, and indeed feel obliged to trust him, implicitly, and without question, as an infallible authority on matters of the Orthodox faith.   But no one like St. Athanasius has endorsed Kitezh.  And indeed if we're to believe hopeful faithful perhaps my love is misplaced or for the wrong reasons, since apparently the majority of the colleagues of the Alexandrian saints were busy castrating boys, and the Ss. Anthony among others owes his sainthood to being one of the few not involved in the cutthroat eunuch trade, which apparently the greatest Pope of Alexandria since St. Mark did not feel the need to suppress within his territory.

So there are multiple places where people in this thread really went quite straight off the reservation: in invoking the Orrhodox equivalent of Atlantis, in accusing Egyptian Christians of being the perpetrators of castration on an epic scale since the patriarchate of St. Mark the Evangelist apparently, and also in making what strike me as sinister remarks about how this website "will be stopped."   

By the way Mor, Hawkeye caused no problems in this thread and if he is an Old Believer I look forward to getting to know him better and hopefully hearing his perspective on these issues.   I believe Carl Kraeff was referring to HopefulFaithful and the dude with the Cyrillic username who is convinced we're slandering him.   I like talking to people on Oc.net a great deal, but HopefulFaithful horribly hurt my feelings and made me literally cry with his remarks about the Copts, and at the same time I think Carl and I are of one accord in praying for the deliverance of the other poster from whatever is eating him, as he came across as being someone suffering a great distress. 

Now on that note, I want to be absolutely clear to iconodule and other believers in Kitezh: in calling into question the validity of this belief I wish you no ill and pray that I do not hurt your feelings.  I am willing to consider changing my position on Kitezh furthermore if you can explain to me how a belief in This city does not result in certain people being effectively unconditionally elected in the Calvinist manner while the rest of us are left above ground to work out our salvation in fear and trembling, and if more credible evidence, such as an endorsement by St. Seraphim of Sarov, for Kitezh, were produced.  If St. Seraphim believed in it, I'll believe in it, at the risk of sounding trivial.   But any more substantial evidence would be of help, because right now I don't see any material validating this story that is even worthy of comment, but I've only just heard of it and started to Google it, so Imwill, readily confess a lack of deep knowledge (pun intended) in the subject matter.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 06:40:06 PM by wgw »
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline wgw

  • All scorpions must DIE!!!
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,816
  • This icon is of St. Athansius.
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #355 on: April 23, 2015, 06:41:36 PM »
I have reevaluated my nomination of this thread for weird thread of the decade. Clearly the breadth, scope and utter seriousness in the face of abject absurdity found here is epic.

Underwater priests and bishops, castration and genital mutilation all in one topic. Thank God this isn't in the Convert board.

Oh yes, AND turtles!

All time weird thread, anyone?

I agree and I am thinking that there may be something seriously wrong with Old Believers, if most of them are like the two that "graced" this discussion.
I would come to the same conclusion about us "mainstream" Orthodox if I used forumers as my standard.

Well that's certainly valid, and I get the impression most genuine Russian Orthodox Old Believers wouldn't hang around English language Internet forums.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline Jonathan Gress

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,541
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #356 on: April 23, 2015, 06:52:01 PM »
I have reevaluated my nomination of this thread for weird thread of the decade. Clearly the breadth, scope and utter seriousness in the face of abject absurdity found here is epic.

Underwater priests and bishops, castration and genital mutilation all in one topic. Thank God this isn't in the Convert board.

Oh yes, AND turtles!

All time weird thread, anyone?

I agree and I am thinking that there may be something seriously wrong with Old Believers, if most of them are like the two that "graced" this discussion.
I would come to the same conclusion about us "mainstream" Orthodox if I used forumers as my standard.

Well that's certainly valid, and I get the impression most genuine Russian Orthodox Old Believers wouldn't hang around English language Internet forums.

That's what I was saying! English is the devil's language.

Offline Minnesotan

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,329
  • Milo Thatch is the ONLY Milo for me. #FreeAtlantis
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #357 on: April 24, 2015, 12:08:50 AM »
Now on that note, I want to be absolutely clear to iconodule and other believers in Kitezh: in calling into question the validity of this belief I wish you no ill and pray that I do not hurt your feelings.  I am willing to consider changing my position on Kitezh furthermore if you can explain to me how a belief in This city does not result in certain people being effectively unconditionally elected in the Calvinist manner while the rest of us are left above ground to work out our salvation in fear and trembling.

Well, that depends on whether the inhabitants of Kitezh are supposed to be mortal or immortal. I'm not entirely sure since I'd never heard of the legend before. But there's two possible interpretations:

  • The people of Kitezh did die and thus received the crown of martyrdom, but were subsequently resurrected "early" as a reward for their faith, and now inhabit glorified immortal bodies that can breathe underwater, so they are celibate. Thus, no unconditional election since no one is born into that condition.
  • The people of Kitezh did not die but were somehow made capable of surviving underwater, and in all other respects are the same as we are now.

What the other posters on this forum have said about it seems to imply #2. But interpretation #2 is theologically very problematic for the reasons wgw pointed out. Interpretation #1 would not have these problems. However, you still couldn't use interpretation #1 as an excuse to argue that Jesus had kept his promise to preserve the visible church on this world (I.e., among those of us who haven't died nor been resurrected yet), so it can't be used to defend bespopovts claims.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 12:09:31 AM by Minnesotan »
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Online Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,733
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #358 on: April 24, 2015, 02:32:45 AM »
Minnesotan pretty much encapsulates my view of Kitezh.

Option number 1 just collapses into the "all our bishops are in Heaven now" argument.
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

Rome doesn't care. Rome is actually very cool guy.

Offline podkarpatska

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,732
  • Pokrov
    • ACROD (home)
Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #359 on: April 24, 2015, 12:39:38 PM »
Minnesotan pretty much encapsulates my view of Kitezh.

Option number 1 just collapses into the "all our bishops are in Heaven now" argument.

Regardless, the belief in either is simply not an option for Orthodox believers. That is all I am going to say regarding this matter as it simply says it all.