Author Topic: Old Believers and Orthodoxy  (Read 39826 times)

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #225 on: April 20, 2015, 12:17:56 PM »
Don't you see how easily a Protestant can use that to justify their own views, though? "We have Jesus as a High Priest, we don't need your earthly priests and rituals. The Church has always had its High Priest in Heaven."

It seems obvious to me that the priestless Old Belief was predicated on the idea that the Parousia was literally a couple of years away and Alexis I was the final Antichrist. It simply was not designed to become a normative way of life. Trying to live it as such is like endless spiritual triage.

They've said the same things about early Christianity: that it was based on the expectation of imminent parousia. I don't find that implausible: the Christian way of life was never "normal".

Only it is contradicted in St. Peter, viz.: "There shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? ... But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." Be careful listening to "they," who have so often been enemies of the Church.
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #226 on: April 20, 2015, 01:07:49 PM »
Don't you see how easily a Protestant can use that to justify their own views, though? "We have Jesus as a High Priest, we don't need your earthly priests and rituals. The Church has always had its High Priest in Heaven."

It seems obvious to me that the priestless Old Belief was predicated on the idea that the Parousia was literally a couple of years away and Alexis I was the final Antichrist. It simply was not designed to become a normative way of life. Trying to live it as such is like endless spiritual triage.

They've said the same things about early Christianity: that it was based on the expectation of imminent parousia. I don't find that implausible: the Christian way of life was never "normal".

Only it is contradicted in St. Peter, viz.: "There shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? ... But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." Be careful listening to "they," who have so often been enemies of the Church.

Sometimes I get the impression you deliberately miss the point simply in order to be confrontational.

Offline Hopeful Faithful

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #227 on: April 20, 2015, 03:23:30 PM »
Between the deaths of Pavel of Kolomna and Alexander of Viatsk in the first few decades of the late 17th century (neither of whom, as far as I am aware, ever actually separated from the New Rite Church) and the acceptance of Ambrose of Bosnia by the Old Ritualists at Belaya Krinitsa in the mid-19th century, who were your bishops?

Good health to us all.

As I creep along through the posts in this topic I am seeing that there really is a lot to be mindful of here.

In my reflection in the area of your question, and it began for me personally back in 1995, so it has been a couple decades of very devoted researching, I would first say that there are in fact many more bishops than has been suggested. There are in fact, (if unless I am stretching my understanding of reality?), different applications of what a bishop actually is, according to the good witness of sound Christians down through the ages.

Here is a point I would bring up for now, in my attempt to get through this.

Avvakum is mitred clergy, this brings him into the liturgical function of a bishop.

There are a host of such genuine bishops during the time in this particular question.

Further, what must be taken into account, (unless there is some reason for me to be dissuaded?), is that this was a time of extreme aggressiveness on the part of what might be called the state church, a time of oppressive inquisitional type actions like that in the known history of the Latin Church.

These two things drastically change the tone of such a question as I quote above in the first place, and I would present here that due to these things such a question is really not a good faith based question to begin with and is not appropriate.

I will now disregard that question as invalid and simply move along to another post.

forgive me


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Offline вєликаго

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #228 on: April 20, 2015, 03:32:30 PM »
Don't you see how easily a Protestant can use that to justify their own views, though? "We have Jesus as a High Priest, we don't need your earthly priests and rituals. The Church has always had its High Priest in Heaven."

It seems obvious to me that the priestless Old Belief was predicated on the idea that the Parousia was literally a couple of years away and Alexis I was the final Antichrist. It simply was not designed to become a normative way of life. Trying to live it as such is like endless spiritual triage.

I disagree.
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline Theophania

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #229 on: April 20, 2015, 03:55:57 PM »
Don't you see how easily a Protestant can use that to justify their own views, though? "We have Jesus as a High Priest, we don't need your earthly priests and rituals. The Church has always had its High Priest in Heaven."

It seems obvious to me that the priestless Old Belief was predicated on the idea that the Parousia was literally a couple of years away and Alexis I was the final Antichrist. It simply was not designed to become a normative way of life. Trying to live it as such is like endless spiritual triage.

I disagree.

Why? I think he makes a good point.
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Offline вєликаго

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #230 on: April 20, 2015, 04:00:02 PM »
Don't you see how easily a Protestant can use that to justify their own views, though? "We have Jesus as a High Priest, we don't need your earthly priests and rituals. The Church has always had its High Priest in Heaven."

It seems obvious to me that the priestless Old Belief was predicated on the idea that the Parousia was literally a couple of years away and Alexis I was the final Antichrist. It simply was not designed to become a normative way of life. Trying to live it as such is like endless spiritual triage.

I disagree.

Why? I think he makes a good point.

 Why should I imagine how the protestants use the Truth amiss? They do after all read the Lord's words, but they do so amiss. Pointing out that the Protestants can use honest and true facts amiss, does not incline me to believe, what I perceive, as a sarcastic opinion.
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #231 on: April 21, 2015, 12:08:48 AM »
Don't you see how easily a Protestant can use that to justify their own views, though? "We have Jesus as a High Priest, we don't need your earthly priests and rituals. The Church has always had its High Priest in Heaven."

It seems obvious to me that the priestless Old Belief was predicated on the idea that the Parousia was literally a couple of years away and Alexis I was the final Antichrist. It simply was not designed to become a normative way of life. Trying to live it as such is like endless spiritual triage.

They've said the same things about early Christianity: that it was based on the expectation of imminent parousia. I don't find that implausible: the Christian way of life was never "normal".

Yes, but St. Paul did not advise the Thessalonians to dump all ecclesiastical order and go into bare survival mode because of this imminence. The days are long gone when an Old Believer has to hide in the woods from the Cossacks.

It reminds me of Pentecostals who constantly claim that "God is doing a new thing."
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #232 on: April 21, 2015, 12:12:45 AM »
Don't you see how easily a Protestant can use that to justify their own views, though? "We have Jesus as a High Priest, we don't need your earthly priests and rituals. The Church has always had its High Priest in Heaven."

It seems obvious to me that the priestless Old Belief was predicated on the idea that the Parousia was literally a couple of years away and Alexis I was the final Antichrist. It simply was not designed to become a normative way of life. Trying to live it as such is like endless spiritual triage.

I disagree.

Why? I think he makes a good point.

 Why should I imagine how the protestants use the Truth amiss? They do after all read the Lord's words, but they do so amiss. Pointing out that the Protestants can use honest and true facts amiss, does not incline me to believe, what I perceive, as a sarcastic opinion.

No sarcasm at all. I'm dead serious. That very "all our priests/bishops are guiding us from Heaven" argument kills any reason at all to be Orthodox and not Protestant.
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline вєликаго

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #233 on: April 21, 2015, 12:32:36 AM »
Don't you see how easily a Protestant can use that to justify their own views, though? "We have Jesus as a High Priest, we don't need your earthly priests and rituals. The Church has always had its High Priest in Heaven."

It seems obvious to me that the priestless Old Belief was predicated on the idea that the Parousia was literally a couple of years away and Alexis I was the final Antichrist. It simply was not designed to become a normative way of life. Trying to live it as such is like endless spiritual triage.

I disagree.

Why? I think he makes a good point.

 Why should I imagine how the protestants use the Truth amiss? They do after all read the Lord's words, but they do so amiss. Pointing out that the Protestants can use honest and true facts amiss, does not incline me to believe, what I perceive, as a sarcastic opinion.

No sarcasm at all. I'm dead serious. That very "all our priests/bishops are guiding us from Heaven" argument kills any reason at all to be Orthodox and not Protestant.

You clearly demonstrate in that comment a faith other then Orthodox.
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline вєликаго

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #234 on: April 21, 2015, 12:33:32 AM »
Don't you see how easily a Protestant can use that to justify their own views, though? "We have Jesus as a High Priest, we don't need your earthly priests and rituals. The Church has always had its High Priest in Heaven."

It seems obvious to me that the priestless Old Belief was predicated on the idea that the Parousia was literally a couple of years away and Alexis I was the final Antichrist. It simply was not designed to become a normative way of life. Trying to live it as such is like endless spiritual triage.

They've said the same things about early Christianity: that it was based on the expectation of imminent parousia. I don't find that implausible: the Christian way of life was never "normal".

Yes, but St. Paul did not advise the Thessalonians to dump all ecclesiastical order and go into bare survival mode because of this imminence. The days are long gone when an Old Believer has to hide in the woods from the Cossacks.

It reminds me of Pentecostals who constantly claim that "God is doing a new thing."

You have it backwards, the Nikonians must rejoin the Old Believers, the Old Believers are the church, therefore its not they who need to repent and rejoin the church.
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #235 on: April 21, 2015, 12:35:30 AM »
Don't you see how easily a Protestant can use that to justify their own views, though? "We have Jesus as a High Priest, we don't need your earthly priests and rituals. The Church has always had its High Priest in Heaven."

It seems obvious to me that the priestless Old Belief was predicated on the idea that the Parousia was literally a couple of years away and Alexis I was the final Antichrist. It simply was not designed to become a normative way of life. Trying to live it as such is like endless spiritual triage.

They've said the same things about early Christianity: that it was based on the expectation of imminent parousia. I don't find that implausible: the Christian way of life was never "normal".

Yes, but St. Paul did not advise the Thessalonians to dump all ecclesiastical order and go into bare survival mode because of this imminence. The days are long gone when an Old Believer has to hide in the woods from the Cossacks.

It reminds me of Pentecostals who constantly claim that "God is doing a new thing."

You have it backwards, the Nikonians must rejoin the Old Believers, the Old Believers are the church, therefore its not they who need to repent and rejoin the church.

If that were to happen, would you all have priesthood again, or just a bunch of laymen with a lot of useless costumes?
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline вєликаго

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #236 on: April 21, 2015, 12:39:19 AM »
Don't you see how easily a Protestant can use that to justify their own views, though? "We have Jesus as a High Priest, we don't need your earthly priests and rituals. The Church has always had its High Priest in Heaven."

It seems obvious to me that the priestless Old Belief was predicated on the idea that the Parousia was literally a couple of years away and Alexis I was the final Antichrist. It simply was not designed to become a normative way of life. Trying to live it as such is like endless spiritual triage.

They've said the same things about early Christianity: that it was based on the expectation of imminent parousia. I don't find that implausible: the Christian way of life was never "normal".

Yes, but St. Paul did not advise the Thessalonians to dump all ecclesiastical order and go into bare survival mode because of this imminence. The days are long gone when an Old Believer has to hide in the woods from the Cossacks.

It reminds me of Pentecostals who constantly claim that "God is doing a new thing."

You have it backwards, the Nikonians must rejoin the Old Believers, the Old Believers are the church, therefore its not they who need to repent and rejoin the church.

If that were to happen, would you all have priesthood again, or just a bunch of laymen with a lot of useless costumes?

I'm not taking this libel seriously, you demonstrate not only libel in this comment, but ignorance.
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline Theophania

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #237 on: April 21, 2015, 12:55:41 AM »
A question =/= libel
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Offline вєликаго

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #238 on: April 21, 2015, 12:58:25 AM »
A question =/= libel

It does in this case.
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #239 on: April 21, 2015, 01:00:38 AM »
You have it backwards, the Nikonians must rejoin the Old Believers, the Old Believers are the church, therefore its not they who need to repent and rejoin the church.

If that were to happen, would you all have priesthood again, or just a bunch of laymen with a lot of useless costumes?

I'm not taking this libel seriously, you demonstrate not only libel in this comment, but ignorance.

No one's persecuting you, buddy, so knock it off.  My question was serious and not "libel"...or, for that matter, "slander", "calumny", "detraction", or any other fancy word you'd like to use improperly. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline вєликаго

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #240 on: April 21, 2015, 01:07:01 AM »
You have it backwards, the Nikonians must rejoin the Old Believers, the Old Believers are the church, therefore its not they who need to repent and rejoin the church.

If that were to happen, would you all have priesthood again, or just a bunch of laymen with a lot of useless costumes?

I'm not taking this libel seriously, you demonstrate not only libel in this comment, but ignorance.

No one's persecuting you, buddy, so knock it off.  My question was serious and not "libel"...or, for that matter, "slander", "calumny", "detraction", or any other fancy word you'd like to use improperly.

I disagree, that is exactly what you are doing, even this claim of yours, that I use the term libel or slander improperly is more of the same.
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #241 on: April 21, 2015, 01:18:10 AM »
You have it backwards, the Nikonians must rejoin the Old Believers, the Old Believers are the church, therefore its not they who need to repent and rejoin the church.

If that were to happen, would you all have priesthood again, or just a bunch of laymen with a lot of useless costumes?

I'm not taking this libel seriously, you demonstrate not only libel in this comment, but ignorance.

No one's persecuting you, buddy, so knock it off.  My question was serious and not "libel"...or, for that matter, "slander", "calumny", "detraction", or any other fancy word you'd like to use improperly.

I disagree, that is exactly what you are doing, even this claim of yours, that I use the term libel or slander improperly is more of the same.

I'm pretty sure I am more of an expert on me than you are.  And apparently, on English as well.   
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #242 on: April 21, 2015, 01:22:47 AM »
Don't you see how easily a Protestant can use that to justify their own views, though? "We have Jesus as a High Priest, we don't need your earthly priests and rituals. The Church has always had its High Priest in Heaven."

It seems obvious to me that the priestless Old Belief was predicated on the idea that the Parousia was literally a couple of years away and Alexis I was the final Antichrist. It simply was not designed to become a normative way of life. Trying to live it as such is like endless spiritual triage.

I disagree.

Why? I think he makes a good point.

 Why should I imagine how the protestants use the Truth amiss? They do after all read the Lord's words, but they do so amiss. Pointing out that the Protestants can use honest and true facts amiss, does not incline me to believe, what I perceive, as a sarcastic opinion.

No sarcasm at all. I'm dead serious. That very "all our priests/bishops are guiding us from Heaven" argument kills any reason at all to be Orthodox and not Protestant.

You clearly demonstrate in that comment a faith other then Orthodox.

Well, fair enough seeing as I'm not yet Orthodox. I think you're betraying your own religion far more than I could.
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #243 on: April 21, 2015, 01:24:17 AM »
You have it backwards, the Nikonians must rejoin the Old Believers, the Old Believers are the church, therefore its not they who need to repent and rejoin the church.

If that were to happen, would you all have priesthood again, or just a bunch of laymen with a lot of useless costumes?

I'm not taking this libel seriously, you demonstrate not only libel in this comment, but ignorance.

No one's persecuting you, buddy, so knock it off.  My question was serious and not "libel"...or, for that matter, "slander", "calumny", "detraction", or any other fancy word you'd like to use improperly.

I disagree, that is exactly what you are doing, even this claim of yours, that I use the term libel or slander improperly is more of the same.
How is it libel when Mor is doing to you the very same thing you're doing to us? If Mor is libeling you, then it's because you are libeling us.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline вєликаго

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #244 on: April 21, 2015, 03:00:42 PM »
You have it backwards, the Nikonians must rejoin the Old Believers, the Old Believers are the church, therefore its not they who need to repent and rejoin the church.

If that were to happen, would you all have priesthood again, or just a bunch of laymen with a lot of useless costumes?

I'm not taking this libel seriously, you demonstrate not only libel in this comment, but ignorance.

No one's persecuting you, buddy, so knock it off.  My question was serious and not "libel"...or, for that matter, "slander", "calumny", "detraction", or any other fancy word you'd like to use improperly.

I disagree, that is exactly what you are doing, even this claim of yours, that I use the term libel or slander improperly is more of the same.
How is it libel when Mor is doing to you the very same thing you're doing to us? If Mor is libeling you, then it's because you are libeling us.

Not true, but your accusation is noted.
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline вєликаго

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #245 on: April 21, 2015, 03:35:34 PM »
Don't you see how easily a Protestant can use that to justify their own views, though? "We have Jesus as a High Priest, we don't need your earthly priests and rituals. The Church has always had its High Priest in Heaven."

It seems obvious to me that the priestless Old Belief was predicated on the idea that the Parousia was literally a couple of years away and Alexis I was the final Antichrist. It simply was not designed to become a normative way of life. Trying to live it as such is like endless spiritual triage.

I disagree.

Why? I think he makes a good point.

 Why should I imagine how the protestants use the Truth amiss? They do after all read the Lord's words, but they do so amiss. Pointing out that the Protestants can use honest and true facts amiss, does not incline me to believe, what I perceive, as a sarcastic opinion.

No sarcasm at all. I'm dead serious. That very "all our priests/bishops are guiding us from Heaven" argument kills any reason at all to be Orthodox and not Protestant.

You clearly demonstrate in that comment a faith other then Orthodox.

Well, fair enough seeing as I'm not yet Orthodox. I think you're betraying your own religion far more than I could.

Should not be hard for you to think that, based on your other criticisms, you demonstrate a poor understanding of what Orthodoxy is. 
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline Hopeful Faithful

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #246 on: April 21, 2015, 09:54:03 PM »
Good health,

As a result of the sack(s) of Constantinople by the Crusaders (Civil calendar year 1204?) Mt. Athos suffered persecutions from the Latin’s who destroyed many of the monasteries during the Crusades (until year 1261 of the sorrowful calendar). The monastery Zorgraphou on Athos in 1283 had 26 martyrs who found their death by hands of the westernizing pirates. Some of the monks of Athos attempted to resist the manipulation of forced union with Rome, but the whole peninsula had been ruled by Frankish Masonic type forces from 1204. Then arrived the Ottoman conquest of the Byzantine Empire in 1453, and the final Fall of Constantinople, where the entire Orthodox communion of the Balkan lands and the Near & Middle East, became controlled by the Ottomans. There is a lot more to say about what happened before, during and after all of this, but we can understand that it has not gone well ever since. The Holy Prophet Daniel (in chapter 12, and perhaps other places) foretells the time of the Christian Roman Empire (maybe we can understand this as approximately the thousand year reign of Christendom). After New Rome fell to the Mahometans, Russia accepted its place as the Third Rome and no other capital of Christendom shall ever be. Then, the Russian Patriarch Nikon, along with the Romanov dynasty, destroyed the Apostolic faith and practice for themselves.

However, thankfully, there were many uncounted Russian bishops, other clergy and a significant amount of Russian faithful who did keep the Apostolic teachings, but at great cost. Most were simply exiled to suffer frozen Siberia, but many were murdered by the false-church and state.

Here are some more points to make note of, but this is by no means an exhaustive list, in fact the heretical atrocities by the impostor churches are still multiplying.

There was great destruction of Sacred Books and Ikons.

What a wondrous gift Russia was given in the pure Inspired language of Old Slavonic. The only language made in, by and for the Church. The validity of this language is unquestionable. Patriarch Nikon changed the spelling of Jesus putting into oblivion the good memory of the proper spelling. The pure old Slavonic word for Jesus is very close to the ancient Arabic “issa” so there is precedence for the old Russian practice. In the Eastern Syriac language the name is spelled similarly to the pure old Slavonic as “ishou”, and it is not wise to overlook the connection. The apostles and even the Lord Himself no doubt spoke like this. Patriarch Nikon Latinized the entire sacred language, ruining it, miserably becoming what is now called Church Slavonic.

Even before 1666 good Russians saw the need to make firm the teachings about iconography. Western attitudes had begun creeping into the Russian way of life. It was at the council of 1551 where particular rules were reinforced so that order would be maintained and keep confusion away.

In the book titled, “Jesus in history, thought and culture” on page 743 there is this record about Patriarch Nikon changing the procession direction. “... new prescriptions for the order of processions in the Liturgy were published: instead of going clockwise, ‘With the Sun’ in Russian they now had to go counterclockwise, ‘against the Sun.’ To go against the Sun meant, for many, to go against Christ the Sun of Justice. As the processions were an important element in the sacraments, the ‘wrong’ processions made the sacraments ‘wrong,’ that is, not merely invalid but sacrilegious.” Christians ought not imitate the Muslim procession in Mecca around Hajj.

The Church has a long standing example of liturgically giving glory precisely three times; there is no cause to be adding a fourth glory and especially no cause to be forcing contradiction of a centuries proven way of worship. What Patriarch Nikon did violated the well established way. It makes me sad when I think of it all. What we need to understand just how much confusion was with Patriarch Nikon.

The Psalter was changed by the Nikon reformers. They eliminated entire prayers where the church services would end up short by one or two hours. This cannot be pleasing to God. Who would even begin to think about short-cutting the worship and glory given to the Holy One? This is how it is and we ought to be far more careful than this and learn precisely what is expected of us.

When Constantinople fell the Greeks went so far into apostasy that they even allowed the Latin’s to do their book publishing. The Latin’s were the source of the confusion causing the Greeks to go into many heresies. Even on the Holy Mountain the Greeks would burn any of the good old Russian books that they found. Here are a few more points.

At Vespers, during the “Lord I have cried” verses were eliminated by the Latin’s.

At Matins, during the “Praises” there were verses eliminated by the Latin’s.

At Liturgy, between the “Beatitudes” there were verses eliminated by the Latin’s.

These are only a few areas of corruption that the neo-Orthodox have brought about.

The reasons Patriarch Nikon gave to make reforms in the Liturgical Offices was because he saw differences in various Russian texts. These differences that he found were themselves of Latin origin, coming from such events as the Union of Brest in the Western Russian lands. Patriarch Nikon is without excuse, for there were more than enough warnings about how those things occurred. Patriarch Nikon simply added to the confusion. Here are some of the differences that were entering Russia before Patriarch Nikon added his unjust and forceful reforms.

Metropolitan of Kiev, Peter Mogila, reformed rituals with theological implications, adding in 1644 the Lithos (Rock) which had many departures from the Faith.

In 1646 there was the famous “Prayer Book”. This consisted of a comprehensive collection of prayers, offices and rituals prefaced by “explanatory rubrics” of Pope Paul V rituals. Within this were these departures from Apostolic Teaching:

“Provision for a journey” (the last rites)

The Rite of the “Separation of the soul and body”

Penance was switched to the Latin form (“declarative to the imperative”).

Metropolitan Peter used a Croatian translation by the Jesuit Kasic and/or a source from the Illyrian unionists.

Among the Orthodox in Kiev it was also Iov Boretskii who used Latin liturgical sources, as in the Lenten “Passions” which are an evening celebration of Christ’s passion.

In any event the reforms of Patriarch Nikon did not and have never corrected anything; all he did was to add more confusion.

The gross Nikonian practices led to such a state of confused affairs that Peter the Great, in his love affair with all things Western, only continued the spiral downwards.

Western Architecture really took off with Peter the Great, but even Ivan the Terrible brought in some of its bad symbolism to Russia.

Western clerical garb, and even that of the laity, were forced onto Russia, we might be aware of explanations by St. Clement of Alexandria on important aspects of clothing.

All the good natural guidelines (canons) from ancient times regarding how women must not regularly cut their hair, or men their beards, began to be trampled underfoot.

Russia’s seminary courses were taught in Latin.

Many other Latin devotional books were translated into Russian.

I can appreciate those from other national traditions who work to preserve the left and right antiphonal chant arrangement, but they are not isolated from those who do harmonizing, offer the new polyphony of the western world that sounds more like a foreign opera house than Church, or perhaps are in union with those who play the organ liturgically, or substitute English and other inappropriate languages into the Liturgy.

How sad things are today, the last Christian Empire, Holy Russia, consequently died the miserable death of antichrist ecumenism, satanic freemasonry and atheistic communism, losing Orthodoxy and falling into the bottomless pit of the Great Apostasy. Now these evils are rampant worldwide, capitalism, commercialism, democracy, industrialization and overall moderation spiritually, all distracting everyone away from Orthodoxy. Humanity, generally speaking, is very unable to understand what it is missing.

I made this effort to give good answers for what was at least an hour or two of time, and then somehow it all was lost to cyberspace. So this is all again reworked, even more so, and this is all that I can do for this day. There certainly is more to add and say some other time.

Working to some extent alone I please ask, help me with any personal mistakes?

forgive me, a sojourner in your midst.


HIS Judgment Cometh, And That Right Soon! Mark 13:35

If any man be ignorant, let him alone be ignorant (at his own peril). 1 Cor. 14:38

Let us all hope to be found a faithful, loving bond-slave of Christ on the soon approaching Last Day.

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #247 on: April 21, 2015, 09:57:37 PM »
Don't you see how easily a Protestant can use that to justify their own views, though? "We have Jesus as a High Priest, we don't need your earthly priests and rituals. The Church has always had its High Priest in Heaven."

It seems obvious to me that the priestless Old Belief was predicated on the idea that the Parousia was literally a couple of years away and Alexis I was the final Antichrist. It simply was not designed to become a normative way of life. Trying to live it as such is like endless spiritual triage.

I disagree.

Why? I think he makes a good point.

 Why should I imagine how the protestants use the Truth amiss? They do after all read the Lord's words, but they do so amiss. Pointing out that the Protestants can use honest and true facts amiss, does not incline me to believe, what I perceive, as a sarcastic opinion.

No sarcasm at all. I'm dead serious. That very "all our priests/bishops are guiding us from Heaven" argument kills any reason at all to be Orthodox and not Protestant.

You clearly demonstrate in that comment a faith other then Orthodox.

Well, fair enough seeing as I'm not yet Orthodox. I think you're betraying your own religion far more than I could.

Should not be hard for you to think that, based on your other criticisms, you demonstrate a poor understanding of what Orthodoxy is. 

I don't understand why you disagree with Volnutt's post, вєликаго. If the priestless state isn't an aberrant one, why did your church bother seeking out New Rite priests -- let alone bishops -- to join it following the Raskol?
"Take heed, you who listen to me: Our misfortune is inevitable, we cannot escape it. If God allows scandals, it is that the elect shall be revealed. Let them be burned, let them be purified, let them who have been tried be made manifest among you."   - The Life of the Archpriest Avvakum by Himself

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #248 on: April 21, 2015, 10:01:17 PM »
Don't you see how easily a Protestant can use that to justify their own views, though? "We have Jesus as a High Priest, we don't need your earthly priests and rituals. The Church has always had its High Priest in Heaven."

It seems obvious to me that the priestless Old Belief was predicated on the idea that the Parousia was literally a couple of years away and Alexis I was the final Antichrist. It simply was not designed to become a normative way of life. Trying to live it as such is like endless spiritual triage.

I disagree.

Why? I think he makes a good point.

 Why should I imagine how the protestants use the Truth amiss? They do after all read the Lord's words, but they do so amiss. Pointing out that the Protestants can use honest and true facts amiss, does not incline me to believe, what I perceive, as a sarcastic opinion.

No sarcasm at all. I'm dead serious. That very "all our priests/bishops are guiding us from Heaven" argument kills any reason at all to be Orthodox and not Protestant.

You clearly demonstrate in that comment a faith other then Orthodox.

Well, fair enough seeing as I'm not yet Orthodox. I think you're betraying your own religion far more than I could.

Should not be hard for you to think that, based on your other criticisms, you demonstrate a poor understanding of what Orthodoxy is. 

I don't understand why you disagree with Volnutt's post, вєликаго. If the priestless state isn't an aberrant one, why did your church bother seeking out New Rite priests -- let alone bishops -- to join it following the Raskol?

All those who hold to Russian old Orthodox Christianity help each other in matters pertaining to the common Faith, regardless of their other differences.
HIS Judgment Cometh, And That Right Soon! Mark 13:35

If any man be ignorant, let him alone be ignorant (at his own peril). 1 Cor. 14:38

Let us all hope to be found a faithful, loving bond-slave of Christ on the soon approaching Last Day.

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #249 on: April 21, 2015, 10:03:19 PM »

I don't understand why you disagree with Volnutt's post, вєликаго. If the priestless state isn't an aberrant one, why did your church bother seeking out New Rite priests -- let alone bishops -- to join it following the Raskol?

I think Velikago is instinctually siding with Hopeful Faithful because HF is a fellow old-believer, without thinking through the implications of HF's thinking. In HF's view, Velikago's hierarchy is just as invalid as ours.
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“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #250 on: April 21, 2015, 10:06:35 PM »

I don't understand why you disagree with Volnutt's post, вєликаго. If the priestless state isn't an aberrant one, why did your church bother seeking out New Rite priests -- let alone bishops -- to join it following the Raskol?

I think Velikago is instinctually siding with Hopeful Faithful because HF is a fellow old-believer, without thinking through the implications of HF's thinking. In HF's view, Velikago's hierarchy is just as invalid as ours.

Maybe it would be helpful, for the sake of everything else, to just drop the question, none of us are finished.
HIS Judgment Cometh, And That Right Soon! Mark 13:35

If any man be ignorant, let him alone be ignorant (at his own peril). 1 Cor. 14:38

Let us all hope to be found a faithful, loving bond-slave of Christ on the soon approaching Last Day.

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #251 on: April 21, 2015, 10:08:49 PM »

I don't understand why you disagree with Volnutt's post, вєликаго. If the priestless state isn't an aberrant one, why did your church bother seeking out New Rite priests -- let alone bishops -- to join it following the Raskol?

I think Velikago is instinctually siding with Hopeful Faithful because HF is a fellow old-believer, without thinking through the implications of HF's thinking. In HF's view, Velikago's hierarchy is just as invalid as ours.

Is HF a Bezpopovets?

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #252 on: April 21, 2015, 10:09:26 PM »

I don't understand why you disagree with Volnutt's post, вєликаго. If the priestless state isn't an aberrant one, why did your church bother seeking out New Rite priests -- let alone bishops -- to join it following the Raskol?

I think Velikago is instinctually siding with Hopeful Faithful because HF is a fellow old-believer, without thinking through the implications of HF's thinking. In HF's view, Velikago's hierarchy is just as invalid as ours.

Maybe it would be helpful, for the sake of everything else, to just drop the question, none of us are finished.

You seem to have settled on an answer the question yourself: How can there be any earthly consecrated orthodox bishops during the age of this Great Apostasy? Or do you consider the Belokrinitskaya hierarchy to be valid bishops, despite their New Rite pedigree?
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #253 on: April 21, 2015, 10:12:03 PM »

I don't understand why you disagree with Volnutt's post, вєликаго. If the priestless state isn't an aberrant one, why did your church bother seeking out New Rite priests -- let alone bishops -- to join it following the Raskol?

I think Velikago is instinctually siding with Hopeful Faithful because HF is a fellow old-believer, without thinking through the implications of HF's thinking. In HF's view, Velikago's hierarchy is just as invalid as ours.

Is HF a Bezpopovets?

He identifies himself as "stranniki" which is a variety of bezpopovets.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #254 on: April 21, 2015, 10:18:15 PM »
Is HF a Bezpopovets?

It is truly difficult to keep up, but the post #252 above is not completely inaccurate, though I seek, test, prove and consequently adjust toward a more and more rock solid position, hopefully, as we all should do.

Basically, to explain further, I agree with those who built Vyg, but when those with Peter the Great forced prayers on them some runaway, the stranniki whom I embrace. Until such a time as I find a more faithful example I work to imitate them.

But the term Bezpopovets is a misnomer, I do not reject valid clergy, I do not see clergy in this world presently, how could there be?

If I understand Bezpopovets to have the connotation of devil, an extremely derogatory term, I reject that for what it is.

I would be happy to explain more, ask.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 10:19:07 PM by Hopeful Faithful »
HIS Judgment Cometh, And That Right Soon! Mark 13:35

If any man be ignorant, let him alone be ignorant (at his own peril). 1 Cor. 14:38

Let us all hope to be found a faithful, loving bond-slave of Christ on the soon approaching Last Day.

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #255 on: April 21, 2015, 10:20:54 PM »
You have it backwards, the Nikonians must rejoin the Old Believers, the Old Believers are the church, therefore its not they who need to repent and rejoin the church.

If that were to happen, would you all have priesthood again, or just a bunch of laymen with a lot of useless costumes?

I'm not taking this libel seriously, you demonstrate not only libel in this comment, but ignorance.

No one's persecuting you, buddy, so knock it off.  My question was serious and not "libel"...or, for that matter, "slander", "calumny", "detraction", or any other fancy word you'd like to use improperly.

I disagree, that is exactly what you are doing, even this claim of yours, that I use the term libel or slander improperly is more of the same.
How is it libel when Mor is doing to you the very same thing you're doing to us? If Mor is libeling you, then it's because you are libeling us.

Not true, but your accusation is noted.
Of course it's not true that you're libeling us, so don't feel accused. I'm just using that example to point out the idiocy in your repeated gripe that we're libeling you. You are doing to us what we are doing to you. If it's not libel for you to do what you're doing to us, then you cannot logically call it libel when we do the same to you.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 10:21:33 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #256 on: April 21, 2015, 10:21:56 PM »
But the term Bezpopovets is a misnomer, I do not reject valid clergy, I do not see clergy in this world presently, how could there be?

If I understand Bezpopovets to have the connotation of devil, an extremely derogatory term, I reject that for what it is.

I would be happy to explain more, ask.

All "bezpopovets" means is that you are "an individual without a priest", not that you necessarily reject the priesthood altogether. It is an accurate description of both you and me.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 10:29:32 PM by Hawkeye »
"Take heed, you who listen to me: Our misfortune is inevitable, we cannot escape it. If God allows scandals, it is that the elect shall be revealed. Let them be burned, let them be purified, let them who have been tried be made manifest among you."   - The Life of the Archpriest Avvakum by Himself

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #257 on: April 21, 2015, 10:22:51 PM »
Is HF a Bezpopovets?

It is truly difficult to keep up, but the post #252 above is not completely inaccurate, though I seek, test, prove and consequently adjust toward a more and more rock solid position, hopefully, as we all should do.

Basically, to explain further, I agree with those who built Vyg, but when those with Peter the Great forced prayers on them some runaway, the stranniki whom I embrace. Until such a time as I find a more faithful example I work to imitate them.

But the term Bezpopovets is a misnomer, I do not reject valid clergy, I do not see clergy in this world presently, how could there be?

If I understand Bezpopovets to have the connotation of devil, an extremely derogatory term, I reject that for what it is.

I would be happy to explain more, ask.


I'm curious if and how you came into contact with a stranniki community. Did someone baptize you? Are you attending services somewhere?
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #258 on: April 21, 2015, 10:25:26 PM »
I have many dear brothers and sisters in and from the Belokrinitskaya, from the USA, Australia, Russia, Romania, etc. and I have met the vast majority of them in person, exchanging kinship. I have high hopes for more understanding between all of us. But the earthly consecrated clergy of our times does seem beyond problematical. Help me to understand it differently, I have been around and am capable of talking about anything. Nothing I have said should be construed as speaking for my brother kind brother here, he speaks for himself.
HIS Judgment Cometh, And That Right Soon! Mark 13:35

If any man be ignorant, let him alone be ignorant (at his own peril). 1 Cor. 14:38

Let us all hope to be found a faithful, loving bond-slave of Christ on the soon approaching Last Day.

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #259 on: April 21, 2015, 10:31:25 PM »
I have many dear brothers and sisters in and from the Belokrinitskaya, from the USA, Australia, Russia, Romania, etc. and I have met the vast majority of them in person, exchanging kinship. I have high hopes for more understanding between all of us. But the earthly consecrated clergy of our times does seem beyond problematical. Help me to understand it differently, I have been around and am capable of talking about anything. Nothing I have said should be construed as speaking for my brother kind brother here, he speaks for himself.

I was actually asking about your own particular community. Are you part of a local community, or are you a solitary practitioner? Who received you into the old orthodox faith?
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #260 on: April 21, 2015, 10:32:48 PM »
All "bezpopevets" means is that you are "an individual without a priest", not that you necessarily reject the priesthood altogether. It is an accurate description of both you and me.

You see, that is the position of the devil, to be without, which not one Strannik makes the claim of, and I disclaim being without a priest. Maybe someday I will be able to show you something more along these lines, but the term is a misnomer propagated by those outside the Stranniki, believe me, and I would disclaim the notion as falsehood. You do not understand me yet, I hope you will someday. I do not take any personal offense, so no worries there, it is just a matter of principle, and I stand on what I have said.

forgive me, a wandering brother
HIS Judgment Cometh, And That Right Soon! Mark 13:35

If any man be ignorant, let him alone be ignorant (at his own peril). 1 Cor. 14:38

Let us all hope to be found a faithful, loving bond-slave of Christ on the soon approaching Last Day.

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #261 on: April 21, 2015, 10:39:13 PM »

I don't understand why you disagree with Volnutt's post, вєликаго. If the priestless state isn't an aberrant one, why did your church bother seeking out New Rite priests -- let alone bishops -- to join it following the Raskol?

I think Velikago is instinctually siding with Hopeful Faithful because HF is a fellow old-believer, without thinking through the implications of HF's thinking. In HF's view, Velikago's hierarchy is just as invalid as ours.

Is HF a Bezpopovets?

He identifies himself as "stranniki" which is a variety of bezpopovets.

Ah OK. I guess I'm wondering why a diehard Old Believer who I seem to recall believes the world is flat is using something as clearly Satanic as the Internet.

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #262 on: April 21, 2015, 10:47:13 PM »
All "bezpopevets" means is that you are "an individual without a priest", not that you necessarily reject the priesthood altogether. It is an accurate description of both you and me.

You see, that is the position of the devil, to be without, which not one Strannik makes the claim of, and I disclaim being without a priest. Maybe someday I will be able to show you something more along these lines, but the term is a misnomer propagated by those outside the Stranniki, believe me, and I would disclaim the notion as falsehood. You do not understand me yet, I hope you will someday. I do not take any personal offense, so no worries there, it is just a matter of principle, and I stand on what I have said.

forgive me, a wandering brother


Then, please, explain it to me; make me understand. Do stranniki have priests? Do you? Are there liturgies and chrismations to be had?

On what grounds can you claim to be anything but priestless?
"Take heed, you who listen to me: Our misfortune is inevitable, we cannot escape it. If God allows scandals, it is that the elect shall be revealed. Let them be burned, let them be purified, let them who have been tried be made manifest among you."   - The Life of the Archpriest Avvakum by Himself

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #263 on: April 21, 2015, 11:03:31 PM »
I'm curious if and how you came into contact with a stranniki community. Did someone baptize you? Are you attending services somewhere

Curiosity got the cat you know?

In 2001 I did meet online, a video message, with a brother strannik in Siberia of all places, he married and has moved here to California and is an citizen of the USA today, traveling all over the place, he has a son and as he explains to those who ask if he is a priest, he will tell them he is a priest to his son, but that is about as far as it goes. My wife and I have attended services with him in a chapel without walls, without a roof, well, the Heavens are our roof, this was in 2004, after we were finished this photo was taken, we were then in the Sierra Nevada Mountain Range of California, I hope the link works?
https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=12DB51F674E77911&id=12DB51F674E77911!2575&v=3

He and I meet up simi-regularly, it has been a few years now, but we have had many prayers in many different locations all over during our almost 15 year kinship.

It is my understanding, and this I am sure can be debated, but I have had 3 heretical baptisms, which according to the old rules are not(that is, bez)-baptisms, if you get the correlation?. I think that I know what I am talking about even if others do not. I am doing my best here.

So at this moment I am in transition, perhaps a catechumen is a good word to pick?

Early catechumenates would last years, and due to the present and ever so Great Apostasy my catechumanate is somewhat lengthy, I will have to post a compilation of references I put together years ago about how sacraments effectively work themselves out for many isolated Christians from the first century onwards, these could very well apply to myself.

This is all good discussion, but I really have to think of a few other things, rarely do I connect here for such a length of time as today.

I will make every attempt to post more and reply, in a timely fashion, Lord willing.

Oh, since 2001 I have met many other Stranniki as well.

forgive me, a practiced hider


« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 11:08:57 PM by Hopeful Faithful »
HIS Judgment Cometh, And That Right Soon! Mark 13:35

If any man be ignorant, let him alone be ignorant (at his own peril). 1 Cor. 14:38

Let us all hope to be found a faithful, loving bond-slave of Christ on the soon approaching Last Day.

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #264 on: April 22, 2015, 02:11:52 PM »

I don't understand why you disagree with Volnutt's post, вєликаго. If the priestless state isn't an aberrant one, why did your church bother seeking out New Rite priests -- let alone bishops -- to join it following the Raskol?

I think Velikago is instinctually siding with Hopeful Faithful because HF is a fellow old-believer, without thinking through the implications of HF's thinking. In HF's view, Velikago's hierarchy is just as invalid as ours.

Is HF a Bezpopovets?

He identifies himself as "stranniki" which is a variety of bezpopovets.

Ah OK. I guess I'm wondering why a diehard Old Believer who I seem to recall believes the world is flat is using something as clearly Satanic as the Internet.

I believe it was Dionisi who was a flat earther. He was part of the Lipovan Old Rite community (they have priests and bishops).
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“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #265 on: April 22, 2015, 02:13:25 PM »
All "bezpopevets" means is that you are "an individual without a priest", not that you necessarily reject the priesthood altogether. It is an accurate description of both you and me.

You see, that is the position of the devil, to be without, which not one Strannik makes the claim of, and I disclaim being without a priest. Maybe someday I will be able to show you something more along these lines, but the term is a misnomer propagated by those outside the Stranniki, believe me, and I would disclaim the notion as falsehood. You do not understand me yet, I hope you will someday. I do not take any personal offense, so no worries there, it is just a matter of principle, and I stand on what I have said.

forgive me, a wandering brother


Then, please, explain it to me; make me understand. Do stranniki have priests? Do you? Are there liturgies and chrismations to be had?

On what grounds can you claim to be anything but priestless?

I believe his position is that they still have "invisible" priests and bishops (saints). How this translates in terms of liturgy, mysteries, etc. is something I would like to know as well.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #266 on: April 22, 2015, 03:04:38 PM »

I don't understand why you disagree with Volnutt's post, вєликаго. If the priestless state isn't an aberrant one, why did your church bother seeking out New Rite priests -- let alone bishops -- to join it following the Raskol?

I think Velikago is instinctually siding with Hopeful Faithful because HF is a fellow old-believer, without thinking through the implications of HF's thinking. In HF's view, Velikago's hierarchy is just as invalid as ours.

Actually, I'm just not desiring to adopt an erroneous or libelous view of the "priestless" Old Believers. "Thou shall not bare false witness."
« Last Edit: April 22, 2015, 03:34:04 PM by вєликаго »
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #267 on: April 22, 2015, 03:45:44 PM »
But the term Bezpopovets is a misnomer, I do not reject valid clergy, I do not see clergy in this world presently, how could there be?

If I understand Bezpopovets to have the connotation of devil, an extremely derogatory term, I reject that for what it is.

I would be happy to explain more, ask.

All "bezpopovets" means is that you are "an individual without a priest", not that you necessarily reject the priesthood altogether. It is an accurate description of both you and me.

Protestants vary wildly among themselves. There is protestants that still believe in ordained priesthood, however, the vast majority of protestants do not. Old Believers of all persuasions all believe in the priesthood; and, they should believe in earthly ones as well, even if they feel or believe they do not have access to them.  An example is the protected city of Kitezh, where there is universally accepted earthly ordained priesthood.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2015, 03:49:44 PM by вєликаго »
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #268 on: April 22, 2015, 05:42:13 PM »
But the term Bezpopovets is a misnomer, I do not reject valid clergy, I do not see clergy in this world presently, how could there be?

If I understand Bezpopovets to have the connotation of devil, an extremely derogatory term, I reject that for what it is.

I would be happy to explain more, ask.

All "bezpopovets" means is that you are "an individual without a priest", not that you necessarily reject the priesthood altogether. It is an accurate description of both you and me.

Protestants vary wildly among themselves. There is protestants that still believe in ordained priesthood, however, the vast majority of protestants do not. Old Believers of all persuasions all believe in the priesthood; and, they should believe in earthly ones as well, even if they feel or believe they do not have access to them.  An example is the protected city of Kitezh, where there is universally accepted earthly ordained priesthood.

I'm sorry, I really can't accept this.  Throughout this thread you have been hurling accusations of slander and libel at us, and now you invoke a mythical city that does not in fact exist any more than Shambala or Atlantis.  It's just impossible to regard your position in this debate with any credibility when you attack us for posing legitimate questions, accuse us of slander, then yourself smear Protestants and invoke the Old Believer equivalent of Atlantis.

I don't wish to sound harsh; I just want you to understand that from my perspective at least, you're really harming the reputation of Old Believers.  I had historically regarded your group as an entirely legitimate and fully Orthodox group that was subject to heinous and unwarranted persecution and had nothing but respect for Old Believers, but on account of this material you're forcong me to re-evaluate my historic respect and indeed enthusiasm for the Old Believers.  The belief in, for example, a mythical earthly city like Kitezkh is absurd, unscriptural and entirely opposed to Sacred Tradition.  How can one claim to be Orthodox while believing in such a fantasy?  But beyond that, the general meanness of your conduct and your unwillingness to engage in friendly dialogue with us, has profoundly alienated me.

If Kitezkh exists, which it surely does not, it's no place I would want to be, if everyone there is as mean spirited and hostile to other Chriatians as conversing with you might suggest.  But even the idea of a lost or hidden city of Old Believers is literally a profoundly occult idea, unworthy of Orthodoxy in any respect.  If such a place existed it would surely be a demonic hell-mouth, an ornate spiritual trap for those consumed with religious pride.  Our Lord gave his life for the redemption of the human race, not a tiny number of Russians, and I cannot conceive of Him suffering the existence of such a place.

There is but one splendid city of God in Orthodox Christianity and that is the New Jerusalem which is promised as a reward to those whom God has mercy upon on the dread day of Judgement, which we honor with the hymn "Shine, shine, New Jerusalem."  There is no room for At
Antis, Shangro-La or Kitzekh or any other mythical rivals to the splendour of the New Jwrusalem.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #269 on: April 22, 2015, 05:58:47 PM »
I should also add that Kitzekh cannot in any sense be said to posess a universally accepted earthly priesthood, for these reasons:

-It does not actually exist
-Not existing, it cannot form a part of any legitimate metropolis or any autocephalous church
- Not being priests in a legitimate jurisdiction, but rather, of a mythical city, the priests of Kitzekh can in no sense be "universally accepted", since any sane Orthodox Christian cannot accept that which does not exist, much less admit such non-existent clergy to the rolls of a legitimate jurisdiction.
- Any Old Believer jurisdiction which recognizes the legitimacy of such non-existent clergy makes a mockery of itself, and cannot be taken seriously by other Old Believers or by members of other Orthodox churches.
-Accordomg to myth, it is underwater
-Beomg mythological and underwater, the priests of Kitzekh cannot in any sense be described as "earthly"; rather these priests must by nature be acquired and ethereal.

So really, I do fear we have really jumped off the deep end here and are rather at risk of drowning in the chilled waters of Lake Svetloyar.

Although admittedly the mythology of Kitzekh is fascinating and would make for an excellent SF or fantasy story.  But surely anyone who actually believes in it needs to talk to their priest, for holding to such a view seems to me to be a classic example of severe prelest.  Because what is prelest, if not believing in hidden fantastic monasteries and holy cities that exist outside the realm of mundane reality?  And what good could come of a belief in such spurious locales?  One might waste time spent entering a real monastery or engaged in genuine repentance on the distractions of a search for Kitzekh.  The very myth seems to me toxic to Orthodoxy; the idea of such phantasmic holy places hidden from sight seems deeply opposed to every shred of wisdom contained within the Philoklakia, the Sayings of the Desert Fathers, the Ladder of Divine Ascent, the Life of St. Anthony, and indeed the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments.  Our God does not hide His light under a bushel; occult cities are antithetical to our religion.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2015, 05:59:54 PM by wgw »
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!