Topic: Priest hurt in mock gay marriage!

[Nacho]

Priest hurt in mock gay marriage

http://dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story.jsp?sectionid=1274&storyid=3241659

From correspondents in Paris
June 6, 2005

<excerpt>

A PRIEST was slightly hurt at Paris's famed Notre-Dame Cathedral when clashes broke out between church security personnel and gay rights activists who performed a mock marriage of two lesbians.

About 20 members of the group Act Up entered the cathedral and proceeded to perform the mock marriage in front of baffled tourists and worshippers, according to an AFP correspondent at the scene.

One activist - dressed as a priest - pronounded the two women married, while other Act Up members chanted: "Pope Benedict XVI, homophobe, AIDS accomplice."

With security officials in pursit, they then fled the cathedral, but clashes broke out outside the Paris landmark, during which Monsignor Patrick Jacquin suffered a minor neck injury. He was treated at the scene.

The demonstration marked the first anniversary of France's first gay wedding, performed last year in the Bordeaux suburb of Begles.

The union of two men has since been declared null and void by the French courts.

Monsignor Jacquin said: "They are savages. I was pushed to the ground and trampled, kicked in the neck.

 <snip>

----Lord have mercy! I couldn’t imagine something like this happening in an Orthodox Church. These activist are going way to far with these stunts. If I ever saw something like this unfolding before my own eyes at Liturgy I would guarantee you there would be fisticuffs.  I thought all gay marriages were "mock marriages" anyway. So here we have a mock "mock marriage"?

[prodromos]

I hate to tell you this but a (former) Orthodox priest in Russia married two men. Not only was he defrocked but they decided to bulldoze the church as well since they considered that it had been wholly desecrated by the priest's blasphemous act. I guess their response could have been more extreme. They could've also bulldozed the hospital he was born in, the house he grew up in and the school he attended

Christos Anesti!  Christ is Risen!

[Orthodoc]

I hate to tell you this but a (former) Orthodox priest in Russia married two men. Not only was he defrocked but they decided to bulldoze the church as well since they considered that it had been wholly desecrated by the priest's blasphemous act. I guess their response could have been more extreme. They could've also bulldozed the hospital he was born in, the house he grew up in and the school he attended


Yes the priest was defrocked but the bulldozing of the Church was not a result of the so called 'gay marriage'.  The Church had already been scheduled for demolition to make way for a new church when the so called wedding to place.

Orthodoc
Christos Anesti! Christ is Risen!

[Elisha]

It is utterly tragic how the Gay Lobby/Gay activists want to treat the Church as a democracy - to sanctify their own feelings whether they are right or wrong (which we know is the latter).  They just don't get it!  It's not just about "Love", but Truth as well, which doesn't change.

[Sabbas]

It is France and such tension with +ëglise is not new. At least they did not storm the cathedral and proclaim a new religion worshipping the goddess Liberty like in the French Revolution.

I hate to tell you this but a (former) Orthodox priest in Russia married two men. Not only was he defrocked but they decided to bulldoze the church as well since they considered that it had been wholly desecrated by the priest's blasphemous act. I guess their response could have been more extreme. They could've also bulldozed the hospital he was born in, the house he grew up in and the school he attended

Christos Anesti! Christ is Risen!

I did not know that! I think that anyone desiring to know what the Orthodox Church thinks of gay marriage should consider this a good example.

[Nacho]

When I first read the headline I thought it had something to do with a priest bending over...

[Tikhon29605]

By the way, the Russian Orthodox "gay wedding" incident also involved bribery from what I read. The priest, apparently, had some reservations about "marrying" the couple, until he was offered cash and consented. I don't know how much they offered him, but it would be interesting to find out. It surprised me that it occured in Russia. I would have thought that such a thing would have occured in "progressive" Finland or even the United States before it would have occured in Russia. 

[cizinec]

UUUUUUUUUmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Nacho is nauughhhty.

[Michael]

When I first read the headline I thought it had something to do with a priest bending over...

Because, of course, all gay men are rapists. :flame:

As it happens, I firmly diagree with the actions of this priest, (althoughI think the bulldozing was a little extreme), but comments like Nacho's are offensive and unhelpful.

[Nacho]

As it happens, I firmly diagree with the actions of this priest, (althoughI think the bulldozing was a little extreme), but comments like Nacho's are offensive and unhelpful.

Sorry that you can't take a joke man..... Of course I don't beleive that at all, chill out. It's appearant you didn't read the story, why would you be offended by the actions of the priest? He didn't do anything but try to stop the mockery in action and was hurt in the process.

[Sabbas]

He was referring to the Russian priest who married two gay men.

[Bono Vox]

Because, of course, all gay men are rapists.

As it happens, I firmly diagree with the actions of this priest, (althoughI think the bulldozing was a little extreme), but comments like Nacho's are offensive and unhelpful.

Nacho was just kidding around. Let's not get too Anglican and call the PC police.

By the way, do anglicans call the femail "priests" father???

Bagpiper

[bripat22]

Nacho was just kidding around. Let's not get too Anglican and call the PC police.



Bagpiper

 well... if Nacho was just kidding around, then we can respond and say that the attempt at humor was just tiresome without being called PC (which is always used to stop any argument in opposition and is a very old tactic)  Being a "victim" of "PC" is the new attempt by the Right to make themselves into martyrs I suppose

[ozgeorge]

It is utterly tragic how the Gay Lobby/Gay activists want to treat the Church as a democracy - to sanctify their own feelings whether they are right or wrong (which we know is the latter). They just don't get it! It's not just about "Love", but Truth as well, which doesn't change.

I'm even more surprised that they don't see the irony of what they are doing. They see themselves as an oppressed group, yet they are doing the equivalent of placing a pig carcass in a mosque or spraypainting swastikas in a synogogue in order to make their point.

[Nacho]

well... if Nacho was just kidding around, then we can respond and say that the attempt at humor was just tiresome without being called PC (which is always used to stop any argument in opposition and is a very old tactic)  Being a "victim" of "PC" is the new attempt by the Right to make themselves into martyrs I suppose

Well, let's Nacho answer for himself then...   Yes, it was just an attempt at humor and find it funny that anyone would find it that offensive. I think it's pretty hilarious because I'm not one of those christians with the fake piety that takes offense the minute someone says something that may be precieved as an off the cuff remark. Hmmm, I didn't notice any rampant gay bashing on this thread on my part did you? I even only referred to them as just "activist" acknowledging that only a minority in thier own community act this way going into a church performing their mock "mock marriage." I didn't know either that labeling something 'PC" is now an attempt by those on the right to act as martrys. Maybe I should put that down in my playbook the next time someone gets offended by something I say so I can use it.    

[ania]

Nacho, though I'm not offended by the comment re the priest, I am kinda disgusted at it (and I say nasty stuff all the time, but that comment was a wee bit over the top for me (decending from a long line of priests where telling jokes about them was ok, but there was a certain line you just don't cross.))

[Augustine]

The "need" for the constant approval of others is juvenile - it's something children crave, and which hopefully radically diminishes as we grow into maturity.

In general, both juvenality and narcissism are rampant in society in general.  This goes to explain in large part why various shades/degrees of homosexualism (it's hardly uniform - the idea that it constitutes some kind of clean cut "third gender" is nonsense, and which is why politicized homosexuals so often despise self identified "bi-sexuals" so much, since in reality out-and-out aversion to heterosexual attraction is very rare) are becoming increasingly common.  While there may be some biological disposition to these behaviours (just as there are those who are disposed to addictive behaviours like alcoholism), the reality is that changing notions of "tolerance" and sexual licence, as well as rampant "me-ism" are what explain the rise of the self identified/invented "gay community".

The incident in the French Church is really unsurprising, if you consider the nature of this vice, particularly amongst those who want to delude themselves into believing what they're up to is "healthy" or "natural".  These folks don't want tolerance (which means toleration - as in, I won't tie you to a stake and burn you for being a bugger), they wan't acceptance; and if they feel that they can at all get away with it, they have no problem coercing this out of you...because, in the end, they're emotionally malformed/under-developed little brats.

[Michael]

Well, let's Nacho answer for himself then...   Yes, it was just an attempt at humor and find it funny that anyone would find it that offensive. I think it's pretty hilarious because I'm not one of those christians with the fake piety that takes offense the minute someone says something that may be precieved as an off the cuff remark.

I was reading other people's replies, and I was about to apologise for what I perceived as an unnecessarily reactionary post on my part, until I got to this.  I still offer my apologies, as I understand now that you did not intend offence and I perhaps ought not to have been so ready to take offence.

I will go on to say, however, that I find your response a little impolite.  Perhaps it is just the way I have been brought up, but as I understand it, if I inadvertently cause offence to somebody with something that I say, I then apologise, even if no offence was originally intended.  When they point out that I have offended them, I do not go on to express the sentiment of "How could you possibly have been offended by that?".

[Nacho]

I will go on to say, however, that I find your response a little impolite.  Perhaps it is just the way I have been brought up, but as I understand it, if I inadvertently cause offence to somebody with something that I say, I then apologise, even if no offence was originally intended.  When they point out that I have offended them, I do not go on to express the sentiment of "How could you possibly have been offended by that?".

Sorry you were offended, I wasn't talking about you per se but everyone in general. I can be pretty harsh myself sometimes and have a problem with being very narcissistic and sarcastic at times. I really didn't think anyone would have been offended by my comment because in light of the situation you can infer it as being in a joking manner. I would have never made a comment like that if it involved any Holy Orthodox Priest because that stuff would never happen in our church in a million years. I had in mind some new - age fruity type priest that was maybe marrying his gay buddies or something along those lines. 

[Matthew777]

How about those Canadians ordaining female priests? Perhaps we should throw a party to celebrate their excommunication.

[Michael]

Sorry you were offended, I wasn't talking about you per se but everyone in general. I can be pretty harsh myself sometimes and have a problem with being very narcissistic and sarcastic at times. I really didn't think anyone would have been offended by my comment because in light of the situation you can infer it as being in a joking manner. I would have never made a comment like that if it involved any Holy Orthodox Priest because that stuff would never happen in our church in a million years. I had in mind some new - age fruity type priest that was maybe marrying his gay buddies or something along those lines. 

 

Thank you, Nacho.  (I can't find a handshake smiley).

[ozgeorge]

in the end, they're emotionally malformed/under-developed little brats.

May be so. May be something else. At any rate, there is certainly a psycho/spiritual illness involved, and the Church is the hospital for the psycho/spiritually ill.
In my opinion, we have enough official statements about the Church's position in regards to moral issues like homosexuality and abortion. Instead of adding more, perhaps we need to look more closely into how we can offer a way out to souls in danger of perdition. Perhaps we could offer more material as well as spiritual help to women who have fallen pregnant and see abortion as their best option, and perhaps we could offer places of refuge and asylum for those struggling to free themselves from same-sex attraction. I remember reading in "Touchstone" magazine last year about the heroic struggle of an Episcopalian Deacon who belonged to a parish which enabled his same-sex attraction- but he began to question this, and in his journey, discovered Orthodoxy. A copy of the article is is on the web here: http://touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=17-04-015-v
We cannot just keep condemning and name-calling without offering a way out. And the imperetive for the Church to more visibly offer a way out is all the more pressing when the message that people get from the "gay and lesbian movement" is that there is no way out of homosexuality.
The sick need physicians, they need to know where to go to seek treatment- all we seem to be willing to offer them at the moment is a diagnosis.

[jayjay]

OzGeorge, you are right. People need a way out of their lifestyles. I don't buy all this modern new age stuff saying you are born that way, you have no choice etc, etc. I have some friends from a long way back who came to God, and left the homosexual lifestyle. They saw it for what it was. A choice that they made, as it was their choice to turn away from it and follow God.

What about a forum specifically for people who want a way out, where they can be introduced to priests/elders etc in their area. Years ago whilst studying in the US, I was part of a councelling team that took referals from a radio programme. Maybe this forum can offer something similar.

P.S. No offence, but i still did have a little giggle to nachos comments!!

[Michael]

OzGeorge, you are right. People need a way out of their lifestyles. I don't buy all this modern new age stuff saying you are born that way, you have no choice etc, etc. I have some friends from a long way back who came to God, and left the homosexual lifestyle. They saw it for what it was.

Hello jayjay

I would never wish to challenge the experience of your friends, and I am glad that they have found peace where they feel God wants them to be.  I would just perhaps draw the distinction between the homosexual state of being (which, to my limited knowledge, the Church is silent about), and homosexual sex, which the Church condemns.

I have posted before that I am always confused by the term "homosexual lifestyle" because different people use it to mean different things.  Some homosexual people are extremely promiscuous and engage in sexual activity with strangers and people familiar to them on a regular basis, some are in monogamous relationships, some are celibate and struggle with it, while others are celibate and happily embrace this celibacy as God's will in their lives.  All of the above are homosexual lifestyles.  I personally fit into the fourth category.  Incidentally, the four descriptions mentioned above fit heterosexual people as well, and in the same way, there is no one "heterosexual lifestyle".

I've just realised how this isn't at all relevant to the discussion, so I'll hush now and go and slink off in a corner somewhere.

[jlerms]

Please excuse the intrusion.  I just wanted to say that I commend Michael's honesty and bravery on the subject of homosexuality.  Everyone has tribulations to endure.  We must all trust and have faith in our loving Lord to strengthen and help us in our struggle with this worldy life.  It is so difficult to let go of our own willful desires and our thoughts of  "I am strong...so I can do this myself ".   How arrogant we can be at times.  We must pray to  Christ Jesus to help us in our human sinfulness because we cannot do it by ourselves.   Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner! 
Blessings to you all,   Juliana

[Michael]

Dear Juliana,

Thank you.

One of my initial attractions to Orthodoxy was the warmth and love among the clarity.  There is an honesty that I have not found elsewhere, but even where it has the potential to become brutal, it is gentle.

In Christ,
Michael

[Elisha]

I have posted before that I am always confused by the term "homosexual lifestyle" because different people use it to mean different things.ÂÂ  Some homosexual people are extremely promiscuous and engage in sexual activity with strangers and people familiar to them on a regular basis, some are in monogamous relationships, some are celibate and struggle with it, while others are celibate and happily embrace this celibacy as God's will in their lives.ÂÂ  All of the above are homosexual lifestyles.ÂÂ  I personally fit into the fourth category.ÂÂ  Incidentally, the four descriptions mentioned above fit heterosexual people as well, and in the same way, there is no one "heterosexual lifestyle".

While logically this could make sense, common usage says otherwise - that "homosexual lifestyle" refers to those that engage in homosexual sex (e.g. there is no confusion of what this means when used with most people).  But enough of the academic discussion...

I found this from the article sadly reaffirming from what I've been hearing about "hateful liberals" (for lack of a better term):

Four years ago, Anglican bishops from Singapore and Rwanda consecrated two men as bishops of the newly formed Anglican Mission in America (AMIA). Knowing that they had set themselves up in opposition to folks like my home parish in San Francisco and the more liberal leadership of the Episcopal Church, and knowing that I, a sexually active gay man who wanted to be an Episcopal priest, was on their list of “enemies,” I prayed for them. My parish was big on praying for enemies—as we did on 9/11 and after, and as we often did for such as Fred Phelps, the minister who travels the country to meetings where he holds up signs with messages like “God hates fags.”

One Sunday, as I stood vested in the morning liturgy, I raised my hands upward and mentioned the AMIA bishops and clergy by name and asked the congregation to pray God’s blessing and guidance on them—meaning, “If they’re wrong, God help them; if they’re right, God advance them.” At that point the congregation normally replied, “Lord, have mercy.” Instead, one of the two rectors stepped into the middle of the room and prayed loudly, “And for their conversion!” To which the congregation said, “Lord, have mercy.”

In an extended e-mail conversation among the liturgical staff after that event, it became evident that the priest thought my prayer misguided. They were wrong and we were right. No other view was to be accepted in the liturgy at his parish. He had just “come out” to the parish and believed that these AMIA folks wanted to send us all back to the Dark Ages. We were called to enlighten them.

The first couple of sentences in the second paragraph are fine - what we all should be doing for everyone - being non-judgmental and sincerely praying for the Lord's Mercy.  The rest makes them out to be as hypocritical as the pharisaical fire and brimstone types like Pharisaicalelps reference above.

[Michael]

While logically this could make sense, common usage says otherwise.

I think that, with any word or expression, what common usage is depends largely on where you live and the circles in which you move.  I asked for a bacon barm in a cafe in Rochester last year and got looked at as though I was speaking another language (apparently they're bacon rolls down there: barm cakes don't exist) - and that's the same country.  We can't assume that people will understand what we mean them to, especially not on the internet.

[ozgeorge]

In recent times, I have heard several people relate similar experiences. I agree that same-sex attraction is a passion and not a sin. And acting on this passion is as much a sin as heterosexual fornication. With this understanding, the debate as to whether people are born with same-sex attraction or not is irrelevant for the purposes of Orthodox Christianity. We should not assume that simply because we have a passion that God intended for us to act on it.
Our Lord Jesus Christ said:
"For there are some eunuchs which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." (Matthew 19:12)
If we understand a eunuch as one who abstains from sexual intercourse, then some are born as such, some are forced to be such, and some choose to be such for the sake of the Kingdom.
Those who struggle to keep their celibacy because of same-sex attraction are fighting a terrible battle against a powerful passion- I am sure they will win a greater crown than I. On the other hand, someone who falls into avarice has not struggled with a powerful passion, but has been overcome by mere money. I think we need to get our perspectives right.

[Elisha]

I asked for a bacon barm in a cafe in Rochester last year and got looked at as though I was speaking another language (apparently they're bacon rolls down there: barm cakes don't exist) - and that's the same country.

I would be wondering what planet you were from too...but the phrase "homosexual lifestyle" is much more prevalent.

[Tikhon29605]

I am not sure where it is on the Internet, but a number of years ago the Holy Synod of the Orthodox Church in America addressed the subject of homosexuality in an encyclical. It is simply one of the BEST writings on the subject I have ever read. It's really, really good. It is both traditional and compassionate, and quite unlike any statement on the issue that I have ever read produced by non-Orthodox Christians. Maybe I can find it and post it.

[Michael]

If you were to post a link to it, I should be very grateful.

[monkvasyl]

I searched the OCA site and under their Documents section I found this on homosexuality:

http://www.oca.org/DOCmarriage.asp?SID=12&ID=26

[Tallitot]

Come Receive the Light has Thomas Hoppko on this subject for 06/11
http://receive.org/index.php?submenu=23

[Michael]

Oh they do some rather good stuff. I'll have a listen to that later.  Many thanks for the link.