Serbs in Bosnia and the recent footage...

[SouthSerb99]

Seeing as I'm one of a "few" Serbs here, I figured it incumbent upon "us" Serbs to raise and discuss this topic.

First and foremost, I'm not entirely sure I saw the entire footage of the apparrent assasination of Bosnian Muslims in 1995.  From what I saw, it appeared as though Serbian Red Baret's, gathered approximately 6-8 Bosnian Muslims, hands bound behind their backs and shot them in a mass execution.

I spent the better part of this weekend trying to get the full details of the video, although I've been unable to.

I have heard (and it my only be B.S.) from some Croats that early in the video, the same soldiers were being blessed by a SOC priest.  Needless to say, I've spent the better part of this weekend debating this (online) with Croats and Muslims.

My thoughts... 

To me (assuming everything I saw was what I'm told it was), it was very disturbing and certainly not very Christian.  The reality is that many of my Serbian brothers (in Bosnia) went too far with their actions.  Certainly, men of fighting age could have been taken as prisoners of war and afforded proper rights under Geneva, but it appears (especially in Srebrenica) that this was ignored.  Unfortunately, there remains a large segment of the Serbian population which still rejects religion outright (remnants of the communists).

It saddens me that this type of stuff happens.  I don't think the actions of some of the fringes of Serbia should condemn the entire populace, nor should it condemn our beloved Church.

I also think it is important that everyone recognize the context.  These were "purportedly" Bosnian Serbs (as opposed to Serbia proper and Kosovo Serbs).  They may have possibly been a part of the group of soldiers from Arkan's Tigers.   I think the distinction is important because by in large, Serbs in Kosovo have been the "cleansed" group.

It also saddened my because it "appeared" from the video that I saw, that the men killed were actually Bosnian Muslims.  That is to say, the weren't Mujahadeen imported from Saudi Arabia and Iran.  In fact, what you really saw, was Soldiers killing Serbians who were forced to convert to Islam more than 500 years ago.... the continuing tragedy of the balkans.

Well, in any event, I opened this discussion up, so as to get some thoughts on this video.

[sin_vladimirov]

Thank you brother.


Fact 1 :
Srebrenica was protected area (enclave). This area was supposed to be un-armed and under protection of UN.

Fact 2 :
Moslem military forces operated from Srebranica under command of one NASER ORIC (now in The Hague under charges for war crimes agains Serbian civilians in area of Srebrenica). Under his command these moslem fighters (some of whom were mujahedeens) commited atrocities against serbian population in area surrounding Srebrenica.

Fact 3 :
Bosnian Serb military was not concentrated on Srebrenica until these attacks became so severe that they jus could not be disregarder anymore.

Fact 4 :
UN knew of the situation, which was basically that moslems used UN protection so that they can organize attacks on serbian civilian population. UN did nothing.

Fact 5 :
It became obvious that Serbs had to do something.

Fact 6 :
What they did remains one single most shamefull and un-serb like action in 1400 years of Serbian history. Destroying that base had to be done. But killing prisoners of war is not what they should've done. It is un-Christian like, it in un-Orthodox, it is shameful.... Killing others to revenge our own losses, even being sweet, is so demonic and wrong. I for one will never accept that killing all those prisoners of war was a "logical thing to do". Destroying Srebrenica as a base yes. Killing POW's no.. never.

[SouthSerb99]

Well said brother.

[Hadel]

I am not Serbian, but I would like to make a comment if you do not mind:

I have seen all religions, and races guilty of war crimes or just crimes in general....we should not "judge a book by its cover." Evil has been done in the Name of God (God help us) and one should not judge a whole race and or religion, because of a few actions that was demonic in nature.

If we all start hating and killing each other as Christians then we are doing the devils work...I follow Christ and I pray for all who are innocent especially in middle of a war.

I do not blame the Serb People or the Religion; if this case is true it is in the judgement of God and they will have their just reward; if not true, then God help us for the deception.

As far as the priest blessings....this is their "job" they must bless and I personally do not believe he blessed them before the "attack;" if true, I do not think the priest knew, my personal opinion.

I pray for peace and tolerance....I honestly understand how you feel....I have been through it millions of times always defending my race and religion (Orthodox).

In Christ,
Hadel

[jmbejdl]

Needless to say, I agree with both of you, and I'm not even a Serb.

One thing that makes me wonder about the video, though, is that it appeared to me to be cobbled together, with the blessing seeming quite different to the shootings (time stamp only on former etc.) That makes me a little suspicious about the motivations of those using it.

Even assuming that it wasn't cobbled together, I find the western media's reaction, dwelling on the Serb priest's blessing, to be disappointing. They clearly wish to villify the SOC but even if (and I find this highly unlikely) the priest knew what the soldiers were going to do and blessed them to do it, then it would only reflect on that one priest. Surely?

Our Church is clearly becoming a favoured target for 'enlightened' western attacks.

James

[sin_vladimirov]

I am not going into Videos.
What I mean is that for the sake of serbian honour and survival as a Cross bearing people, we (Serbs) just have to admit some things.
Only then we can ask others to admit their "things".

We have to apologize for crimes and not pretend that some sons of Serbian mothers are not what they are, monsters!
In doing so we as people will have a way and modus to return to God and operate as Serbs should do operate, in the "NAVE OF THE CHURCH" which is the Land of Serbs.
It will be humble and good thing to do.
For, by apologizing we will attain what we lost.
In feeling the pain of other we will present our pain.
By loving all we will kill the hate.

Croats, Bosnian Moslems and Albanians are not animals, they are our brothers and neighbours.
Might be of different religions, but neigbour is a neigbour no matter what cap he wore and what colour he flew.

In order to return national pride and move forward, Serb have to negate what is wrong and accept what is right.

St. Sava and his Testament to the Serbian people is not of hate but of love and struggle for and with all that surround us.

Serbs are better than this.. All nations are.

[jmbejdl]

I am not going into Videos.
What I mean is that for the sake of serbian honour and survival as a Cross bearing people, we (Serbs) just have to admit some things.
Only then we can ask others to admit their "things".

We have to apologize for crimes and not pretend that some sons of Serbian mothers are not what they are, monsters!
In doing so we as people will have a way and modus to return to God and operate as Serbs should do operate, in the "NAVE OF THE CHURCH" which is the Land of Serbs.
It will be humble and good thing to do.
For, by apologizing we will attain what we lost.
In feeling the pain of other we will present our pain.
By loving all we will kill the hate.

Croats, Bosnian Moslems and Albanians are not animals, they are our brothers and neighbours.
Might be of different religions, but neigbour is a neigbour no matter what cap he wore and what colour he flew.

In order to return national pride and move forward, Serb have to negate what is wrong and accept what is right.

St. Sava and his Testament to the Serbian people is not of hate but of love and struggle for and with all that surround us.

Serbs are better than this.. All nations are.

Very well said.

[SouthSerb99]

S-V,

I think you are spot on.

I also think it is important that Serbs (like us) aren't afraid to talk about any wrong doing on "our" side.  Ultimately, I think this will help us in the long run.

Hadel & James,

Your comments are appreciated.  I posted this thread because I wanted to hear the "non-Serb" opinion on this stuff.

My biggest fear about this "footage" is that it will be used as a pretext for Kosovo Independence.  Unfortunately, most in the west, don't see the difference between the two.

Further, as I have said many times before, I believe Republika Srpska (Serbian part of Bosnia) will be the "reward" for Serbia, after Kosovo is stolen.  An absolute tragedy as far as I'm concerned.

[cizinec]

My biggest fear about this "footage" is that it will be used as a pretext for Kosovo Independence.

That's exactly what it's meant to do. 

Our Church is clearly becoming a favoured target for 'enlightened' western attacks.

I am surprised our churches here haven't been regularly attacked yet.  It's only a matter of time before we start seeing things spray painted on our churches.  That's just my opinion.  I think the Orthodox Church in North America is about to find itself with more difficult questions than whether or not to have pews and organs.

Further, as I have said many times before, I believe Republika Srpska (Serbian part of Bosnia) will be the "reward" for Serbia, after Kosovo is stolen.  An absolute tragedy as far as I'm concerned.

My fear is that they will use srbrenica as the reason Serbia will get neither and my church here in Houston will fill up with another wave of refugees from Bosnia.

Serbs could also become a minority in rump Serbia, since the large minority groups in Serbia have a higher birth rate.  Granted, it would be down the road a spell, but it wouldn't surprise me. 

As long as the Serbs don't abandon God . . .

[SouthSerb99]

Yes the Serbs pretty much only have God and themselves at this point.  I guess that is why we say CCCC.

[cizinec]

Okay, ladies, it's time to get the rest of the story.

As few people in the U.S. know, the ICTY does acually give a few minutes to the defense in the Milosevic case.  On occasion certain facts in a system that is supposed to be adversarial aren't presented by the prosecution because they don't make his case against the defendent look as strong as he'd like. 

Unfortunately, the press doesn't seem to give a crap about facts or the adversarial system and just report the case for the prosecution. 

Well, if you really want to know what the tape showed, I suggest you go here to watch yourself.  http://hague.bard.edu/video.html

For those of you who don't want to watch it, the video shows that the vehicles are marked "Army of Republika Srpska Krajina - Boca Detachment."  This means that they have nothing to do with the MUP or the regular Yugoslav army, which Milosevic controlled.  Further, there is nothing that shows that these murders took place in Srebrenica.  That's just what the prosecution claims. 

Don't believe me?  Watch for yourself.

Does that mean that no Serbs murdered?  Obviously the tape shows that.  But the media is portraying this as proof of a cultural and institutional decision to commit genocide.  The tape just doesn't prove that.

[cizinec]

One more link, just for fun.

http://news.serbianunity.net/bydate/2005/June_09/9.html

[SouthSerb99]

Cizinec,

   Now, I have no doubt that you are Serbian Orthdox, but are you sure you are not just plain SERBIAN? 

[cizinec]

Just ask the soccer player "Christians" at our church.  They'll tell you I ain't no Serb. 

I'm just frustrated because I've been paying attention to this mess for a long time and the trials have revealed that the U.S. payed MPRI, a U.S. company, to violate international law, to train Croatian, Bosnian, Albanian, Iranian, Saudi, Afghani "soldiers" in Turkey, Bosnia, etc.  The prosecution didn't contest it.  The U.S. didn't contest it.  MPRI seems to be proud of it.  That's HUGE news, since Osama and other terrorists had Bosnian passports.  Now it appears we may be fighting the blokes we trained in Turkey in Iraq.  Thank you, MPRI, for helping to kill our soldiers.

Man, that's one little thing.  There are a lot more shocking things that NATO has admitted and bragged about that doesn't get coverage.  But then this video comes out and it's all over the news.  It's frustrating.  Not because the Serbs who committed the crimes on the video don't deserve to get what's coming to them, but to turn a few acts of barbarism into a condemnation for an entire society, nation and ethnic group. 

Show me a country that is more ethnically diverse in the Balkans than Serbia-Montenegro and I'll eat my hat.

Now I don't even know who I'm arguing with.  I think I need to stop hanging around you guys!

[SouthSerb99]

Cizinec,

About a year ago a story ran in the NY Times, NY Post and The Daily News which discussed the capture of an Osama "associate".

They described this associate as "the guy seen in the video with Osama celebrating the collapse of the twin towers... the one in the wheel chair".

Later in the article, it talked about how he got "in" the wheelchair...and they said he was terribly injured by Bosnian Serbs during the war in B & H.

Now, every Serb who read the article was screaming... "Don't you see, these are the people you are protecting!!!  The Serbs and the Americans were working against the same enemy." 

The sooner we (socitey collectively) realizes this, the better (although I don't see soon anywhere in sight).

[bergschlawiner]

  ÃƒÆ’‚  Maybe a military person presently serving in a Muslim environment and seeing the mentality and fanaticism of the Jihadists on a daily basis has a different view of this.  Sure, someone made a video which was stupid.  Like some dummies made digital pitures here at Abu Ghraib Prison that caused a world-wide uproar.  I can tell you that everything was blown out of proportion and taken out of context by the media, both the Western and Aljazeera.  Another case in point is the phony Koran or Quaran scandal that never really happened.  Muslims will believe anything they are told or hear as long as it fits their religious agenda and psyches and it is because of this that we find ourselves more an more exposed to the scenario that the Muslims are the "victims."  They will always be the victims unless they are in full control of other religions and people.  
  ÃƒÆ’‚  In defense of the so-called blessing of the Serb Bosnian soldiers someone mentioned that the date/time stamps on these videos were different which indicates that the priest simply blessed a group of soldiers and did not in any way bless a war crime!!!  What soldiers do when they are on their own is a lot different.  Do we know if the young Marine who shot the dying Muslim fighter in Fallujah may have attended a chapel service before this action?  Everyone is a victim in this case - the dead, the soldiers and the country for which the soldiers fight and die for.

[SouthSerb99]

bergschlawiner,

I think the "crafty" editing of the video, was designed (as Cizinec said), as a pretext to be used against Serbs in *every* situation.

It's actually quite amazing how successful the PR campaign has been against Serbia and the Serbian Orthodox Church. 

Incidentally, there is a young Serb I know running for Congress (d), who is an active member in the Serbian Orthodox Community (in Chicago).  Although he does not stand with all of us on certain internal social issues, he is a very BIG supporter of the Orthodox Church both in the US and abroad.

If you are interested check him out here at www.pavichforcongress.com.  Incidentally, most of his fund raising has come from the Greek and Serbian Orthodox communities in Chicago. His Republican adversaries funds have almost all been raised from various Islamic communities in Chicage (suprisingly).  This fact alone should be enough to inspire us to help him along.

[Serbian Patriot]

Seeing as I'm one of a "few" Serbs here, I figured it incumbent upon "us" Serbs to raise and discuss this topic.

First and foremost, I'm not entirely sure I saw the entire footage of the apparrent assasination of Bosnian Muslims in 1995.ÂÂ  From what I saw, it appeared as though Serbian Red Baret's, gathered approximately 6-8 Bosnian Muslims, hands bound behind their backs and shot them in a mass execution.


I spent the better part of this weekend trying to get the full details of the video, although I've been unable to.

I have heard (and it my only be B.S.) from some Croats that early in the video, the same soldiers were being blessed by a SOC priest.ÂÂ  Needless to say, I've spent the better part of this weekend debating this (online) with Croats and Muslims.

I don't know why you feel the need to debate this with the very people we fought against, especially since you admit you haven't even seen the evidence.  What possible facts can you then hope to counter them with?  They will be able to put you on the back foot right from the start, and you will be on the defensive, having to apologise and denounce things you have no idea whether they happened or not.

My thoughts...ÂÂ  

To me (assuming everything I saw was what I'm told it was), it was very disturbing and certainly not very Christian.ÂÂ  The reality is that many of my Serbian brothers (in Bosnia) went too far with their actions.ÂÂ  Certainly, men of fighting age could have been taken as prisoners of war and afforded proper rights under Geneva, but it appears (especially in Srebrenica) that this was ignored.ÂÂ

For a start you seem to be ignorant of the possibility that these were not ordinary civilians, but fighters dressed in civilian clothing.  Furthermore they might have been guilty of atrocities and their punishment was being dealt to them. 
Secondly don't degrade yourself by talking about the geneva convention.  The whole of the western world united in pummeling and demonizing our nation, and you would like to afford our enemies rights under a convention which they did not allow us.  They showed absolutely no respect for international law, the geneva convention or any truth or justice. 

Unfortunately, there remains a large segment of the Serbian population which still rejects religion outright (remnants of the communists).

It saddens me that this type of stuff happens.ÂÂ  I don't think the actions of some of the fringes of Serbia should condemn the entire populace, nor should it condemn our beloved Church.

I also think it is important that everyone recognize the context.  These were "purportedly" Bosnian Serbs (as opposed to Serbia proper and Kosovo Serbs).  They may have possibly been a part of the group of soldiers from Arkan's Tigers.  ÃƒÆ’‚ I think the distinction is important because by in large, Serbs in Kosovo have been the "cleansed" group.

And what difference is there between Bosnian Serbs and 'Serbia proper' Serbs, whatever that means.  It really would be criminal to try and wash Serbian guilt by trying to portray it as a Bosnian Serb crime, as if they were different to us.  We are all the same nation artificially split by unjust borders, do not try and distance yourself morally from them.

It also saddened my because it "appeared" from the video that I saw, that the men killed were actually Bosnian Muslims.ÂÂ  That is to say, the weren't Mujahadeen imported from Saudi Arabia and Iran.ÂÂ  In fact, what you really saw, was Soldiers killing Serbians who were forced to convert to Islam more than 500 years ago.... the continuing tragedy of the balkans.

You are making error after error in your analysis, you would certainly be a liability were you ever to represent us in any capacity. 
It saddens you that these men were bosnian muslims, not mujahadeen?  Well ive got news for you, the bosnian muslim army was not made up purely of arabs, it had bosnian muslims in it as well!!!  They all referred to themselves as mujahadeen, hence the headbands during parades proclaiming jihad is our path.  Just because they were bosnian does not make them innocent civilians!!!!

[cizinec]

SP,

I don't think your analysis is necesarily wrong, but there's a right way to state your opinions.  You could have made all your points without attacking anyone else.  For instance, in stead of "For a start you seem to be ignorant of the possibility that these were not ordinary civilians, but fighters dressed in civilian clothing," you could have said, "Brother, have you considered that these were not . . . " 

I think you will find that SouthSerb is with you on these points.  When the video first came out it was difficult to tell what was actually there.  If we don't learn HOW to tell people the truth then no one will ever listen, especially when the lies are so easy to believe.

I am very happy to see more Serbs on this board! 

[SouthSerb99]

I don't know why you feel the need to debate this with the very people we fought against, especially since you admit you haven't even seen the evidence.ÂÂ  What possible facts can you then hope to counter them with?ÂÂ  They will be able to put you on the back foot right from the start, and you will be on the defensive, having to apologise and denounce things you have no idea whether they happened or not.

Well, if you had read beyond this one subject you would see that the posters on this website almost universally support the plight of our people.  So I wasn't "debating" this with "anyone we fought against".  Everyone here disagrees with the bombing of Serbia, so I thing you need to get your facts straight.  In fact, we even have an Orthodox Albanian here who is a BIG supporter of Serbia.

For a start you seem to be ignorant of the possibility that these were not ordinary civilians, but fighters dressed in civilian clothing.  Furthermore they might have been guilty of atrocities and their punishment was being dealt to them. ÂÂ

No, I'm not ignorant to anything.  In fact, I've done substantial work at the ICTY.  If you would have read my post (carefully) you would have seen that I said:

assuming everything I saw was what I'm told it was

That is called a caveat.  Again, I understand fully that the video was tailored for a specific purpose, so please don't call me ignorant.

Secondly don't degrade yourself by talking about the geneva convention.  The whole of the western world united in pummeling and demonizing our nation, and you would like to afford our enemies rights under a convention which they did not allow us.  They showed absolutely no respect for international law, the geneva convention or any truth or justice.

ÂÂ  

Well, this is the whole two wrongs make a right argument.  What you are really saying is that the "illegality of the NATO bombing of Serbia, the actions of the Mujahadeen in Bosnia and Kosovo justify any and all Serbian reaction".  Resepectfully I disagree.  I don't now, nor ever condone 14th century style barbarism.

And what difference is there between Bosnian Serbs and 'Serbia proper' Serbs, whatever that means.  It really would be criminal to try and wash Serbian guilt by trying to portray it as a Bosnian Serb crime, as if they were different to us.  We are all the same nation artificially split by unjust borders, do not try and distance yourself morally from them.

Now... speaking of ignorance.  This is a vitally important point, the fact that you can't see it, is preposterous.  What the western powers seek to do with Serbia is paint EVERY Serb with a broad brush.  Thus, Srebrinica = Kosovo.  To the average westerner they don't understand the difference between Bosnia and Kosovo inasmuch as Serbs have been systematically ethnically cleansed from Kosovo for more than 70 years (not to mention periods of Ottoman rule).

Thus when I separate Bosnian Serbs from Serbia proper, I only do so in a legalistic sense.  That is to say, that the fate of Kosovo should only be decided by looking at Kosovo on its own.  The Albanian Islamic majority have proven themselves to be unable of ethnic and religious tolerance.  The ONLY answer for Kosovo is for it to remain a part of Serbia, so that the Serbian minority there, is protected, along with the sacred religious sites.  So I am not saying a Bosnian Serb is any less a Serb than a Serb found in Beograd.

Again, if you had read anything or even looked at my screen name, you would have found out that my family (although originally from Kosovo) was forced out to Sar Planina and modern day FYROM.  Thus, we are not in "Serbia Proper", but we are no less Serbian.  Instead of laying judgment you should have been reading.

In the same spirit, I think all other Serbs in the region deserve the same right of self determination that was afforded to Slovenians, Croats, Bosian Muslims and Macedonians. ÂÂ

You are making error after error in your analysis, you would certainly be a liability were you ever to represent us in any capacity. ÂÂ

Well, if you ever find yourself in the Hague, you will have the right not to be represented by me.  Thus far, I've never been fired by any of my countrymen/women.  BTW, how much of your time/life/money have you donated to help "YOUR PEOPLE"?

It saddens you that these men were bosnian muslims, not mujahadeen?  Well ive got news for you, the bosnian muslim army was not made up purely of arabs, it had bosnian muslims in it as well!!!  They all referred to themselves as mujahadeen, hence the headbands during parades proclaiming jihad is our path.  Just because they were bosnian does not make them innocent civilians!!!!

Obviously you miss the point again!  I was trying to convey the irony here.... that in the end, the video may have been Serbs killing Serbs.  Do you get that? ÂÂ

Lastly, if you've come here to support a position that every action committed by individuals is some how appropriate or justified, respectfully I disagree.  This is an ORTHODOX discussion board.  Many here are devout, many are trying to be devout and many have come to learn about their faith.  If you can't see that it is UNCHRISTIAN to shoot an unarmed shackled man, then you've come to the wrong discussion forum.

Most Serbs were so terribly scorned when war broke out in Yugoslavia because WE were labelled Nazi's and fascists.  Anyone who knew the least bit about our history, knew that we fought (by in large) tooth and nail against Croat Ustashe (Nazi's) and Germans.  Most Serbs are proud that many Jews (like Madelaine Albright) took refuge in Beograd during WWII.  Most Serbs are proud of their legacy and history of being noble fighters and protectors of the weak.

Shooting an unarmed man in the back, while shackled, is not only UNCHRISTIAN, it is not the SERBIAN WAY!

Peace.

[cizinec]

ISTM that we're all working for the same thing.  Can we all go back to working together now?

[sin_vladimirov]

Brother SS99,

our new serb brother is probably very "hot" and by nature things when hot make that hissssssing sound when tried to be cooled.

Give him some time and do not take it to heart.
Some of the serbs just do not see it the same way.

Disregard and pray for him and for all of us.

I was always afraid of PATRIOTS (of late), they tend to do things that are not very nice, say things that are not very pleasent and think the way that is not very Orthodox.

Lord have mercy on us all.

in ICXC
stefan+



P.S. I would go with what brother Cizinec thinks.

[SouthSerb99]

SV,

   I agree and I regret and apologize to my Serbian Orthodox brother SP if I've offended him.  Trust me, I don't take any joy in arguing with another Orthodox brother, let alone a Serbian Orthodox brother.

    I just wish that if he had a problem with what I wrote, he would've pm'd me.

[Elisha]

Warning:  Tangent, but I don't really want to start a whole new thread.

Anyone see the story on Dateline Sunday night about that Armenian guy who was responsible for stashing explosives in a public storage shed around 25 years ago?  Rather interesting....There were connections with bombings that happened against Turks in the US as revenge for the Armenian genocide.

[Strelets]

Could one of you provide a link to the clip itself?

[cizinec]

SouthSerb,

He's new, so I figured I'd give him a break.  He's probably used to going on forums where everyone, including Serbs, go on Serb bashing rampages without thinking.  He's probably used to having to counter that.  He just read a lot of his assumptions into what you were saying. 

Everyone here knows how much you have worked and appreciate your labors.  Probably more than you know.

[Serbian Patriot]

SP,

I don't think your analysis is necesarily wrong, but there's a right way to state your opinions.ÂÂ  You could have made all your points without attacking anyone else.ÂÂ  For instance, in stead of "For a start you seem to be ignorant of the possibility that these were not ordinary civilians, but fighters dressed in civilian clothing," you could have said, "Brother, have you considered that these were not . . . "ÂÂ  

I think you will find that SouthSerb is with you on these points.ÂÂ  When the video first came out it was difficult to tell what was actually there.ÂÂ  If we don't learn HOW to tell people the truth then no one will ever listen, especially when the lies are so easy to believe.

I am very happy to see more Serbs on this board!ÂÂ  

I believe I stated my case logically, the word ignorant is not insulting.  I know it was like chucking a verbal stun grenade into the forum, but the post which i responded to was what triggered me to sign up to the site.

[cizinec]

Well, as I say, welcome!

I hope you will stay and get to know our brother, SouthSerb, a little better.  I think he was trying to choose his words very carefully the day after the video was shown.  As you know, many in Serbia are looking at this as though what the ICTY prosecutors say is absolute truth.  Sometimes we have to approach people carefully. 

An example of this is how, as pointed out by SouthSerb in other threads, a man attempting to create the first Islamic state in Europe who denied the Holocaust could get support from huge Jewish organizations.  They chose their words carefully.  We have assumed for far too long that the truth of a message is its strength.  Sometimes we have to win people over.  I think that what SouthSerb was doing in his first post was to cast doubt on the video, allow the doubt to sink in a bit, and then attack it.  Otherwise it looks like a mindless, knee-jerk denial of something "so obvious" to everyone else.

[Serbian Patriot]

Well, if you had read beyond this one subject you would see that the posters on this website almost universally support the plight of our people.  So I wasn't "debating" this with "anyone we fought against".  Everyone here disagrees with the bombing of Serbia, so I thing you need to get your facts straight.  In fact, we even have an Orthodox Albanian here who is a BIG supporter of Serbia.

You did not make it clear at all that you were debating with people on this site, you simply said that you felt the need to debate with muslims etc.  By no stretch of the imagination would i believe that even on this site any muslims present are big supporters of Serbia.  The fact that an Orthodox Albanian is here is irrelevant, he's niether a Croat nor a muslim, i don't know why you mention him.

No, I'm not ignorant to anything. ÂÂ

You yourself admitted that you tried to launch a discussion without finding any facts. ÂÂ Its the equivalent of going to war with a spoon.ÂÂ  

Well, this is the whole two wrongs make a right argument.  What you are really saying is that the "illegality of the NATO bombing of Serbia, the actions of the Mujahadeen in Bosnia and Kosovo justify any and all Serbian reaction".  Resepectfully I disagree.  I don't now, nor ever condone 14th century style barbarism.

Don't put words into my mouth.  This is not the two wrongs make a right argument.  You are the one that is trying to use international law as a yardstick for what is right and wrong.  I am merely saying that our sense of right and wrong need not come from international law, and that furthermore it would be foolish to bind ourselves to it when our enemies don't.  If something is morally wrong then say so, but don't quote the geneva convention.

Now... speaking of ignorance.  This is a vitally important point, the fact that you can't see it, is preposterous.  What the western powers seek to do with Serbia is paint EVERY Serb with a broad brush. ÂÂ

Your argument is nonsensical.  Just as not every Serb is responsible for srebrenica, if anything ever happened, niether is every bosnian Serb responsible. So you are still generalizing and painting them with a brush.  So there is nothing to be gained from trying to distance Serbs from one another.

Thus when I separate Bosnian Serbs from Serbia proper, I only do so in a legalistic sense. ÂÂ

Serbs should not be seperated from each other in any sense.  Furthermore the west uses international law and interprates it how and when it wants to.  We should should stop being drawn into their games of lies, for the father of lies is the devil.  Defending ourselves to them is exactly what they want.  It implies our guilt and reinforces the image of them being the presiding judge.

Again, if you had read anything or even looked at my screen name, you would have found out that my family (although originally from Kosovo) was forced out to Sar Planina and modern day FYROM.  Thus, we are not in "Serbia Proper", but we are no less Serbian.  Instead of laying judgment you should have been reading.

How I can tell that you are from Sar Planina by looking at your screen name i don't know.  But what i do know is that it is irrelevant. ÂÂ

In the same spirit, I think all other Serbs in the region deserve the same right of self determination that was afforded to Slovenians, Croats, Bosian Muslims and Macedonians. ÂÂ

I think we have a fundamental disagreement here, are you implying that there should be a multitude of Serbian banana states?
 

Well, if you ever find yourself in the Hague, you will have the right not to be represented by me.  Thus far, I've never been fired by any of my countrymen/women.

God willing i will never enter that God-forsaken political circus trying to pass itself off as a court of law and justice.

 BTW, how much of your time/life/money have you donated to help "YOUR PEOPLE"?

The implication you are trying to make is a low blow indeed.  You know very well that i am discussing facts here, and that this is an irrelevant question.  Unlike you though i feel no need to justify this provocation by defending myself, thus this question will go unanswered.

Obviously you miss the point again!  I was trying to convey the irony here.... that in the end, the video may have been Serbs killing Serbs.  Do you get that? ÂÂ

Well racially yes i do agree with that.  But you well know that muslims cannot be Serbs by definition. ÂÂ

Lastly, if you've come here to support a position that every action committed by individuals is some how appropriate or justified, respectfully I disagree. ÂÂ

I notice you use the word if, since you realise that i never said anything of the sort.

.  If you can't see that it is UNCHRISTIAN to shoot an unarmed shackled man, then you've come to the wrong discussion forum.

Of course they are unarmed and shackled after they have been captured.  The relevant question here, if any question can be since we don't have any of the circumstances of the case, it is whether the death penalty is right for islamic militants caught fighting on Serbian soil.

 Most Serbs are proud that many Jews (like Madelaine Albright) took refuge in Beograd during WWII.  Most Serbs are proud of their legacy and history of being noble fighters and protectors of the weak.

Im proud of our fighting legacy brother, but look at how we have been repaid by allbright and indeed the whole jewish establishment running the US right now.  They know nothing of truth, honour or justice, as for gratitude you can forget it.

[Serbian Patriot]

Brother SS99,

our new serb brother is probably very "hot" and by nature things when hot make that hissssssing sound when tried to be cooled.

Give him some time and do not take it to heart.
Some of the serbs just do not see it the same way.

Disregard and pray for him and for all of us.

I was always afraid of PATRIOTS (of late), they tend to do things that are not very nice, say things that are not very pleasent and think the way that is not very Orthodox.

Lord have mercy on us all.

in ICXC
stefan+



P.S. I would go with what brother Cizinec thinks.

Why are you afraid of patriots?  Patriots should be orthodox and visa versa.  I indeed am orthodox, i don't know what i said that leads you to believe otherwise.

[Serbian Patriot]

SV,

  ÃƒÆ’‚ I agree and I regret and apologize to my Serbian Orthodox brother SP if I've offended him.  Trust me, I don't take any joy in arguing with another Orthodox brother, let alone a Serbian Orthodox brother.

  ÃƒÆ’‚  I just wish that if he had a problem with what I wrote, he would've pm'd me.

Why is it unusual to respond to something you posted with a post.  Surely we can discuss these matters in the open.

[Serbian Patriot]

SouthSerb,

He's new, so I figured I'd give him a break.ÂÂ  He's probably used to going on forums where everyone, including Serbs, go on Serb bashing rampages without thinking.ÂÂ  He's probably used to having to counter that.ÂÂ  He just read a lot of his assumptions into what you were saying.ÂÂ  

Everyone here knows how much you have worked and appreciate your labors.ÂÂ  Probably more than you know.

Yes i am used to having to defend our name everywhere and anywhere.  But I did not read into what he was saying, i took it logically at face value.  Now I know that our viewpoints are probably not too far apart, but the way that he stated issues was very dangerous for us.  That is what i have issue with, pandering to our enemies and giving them exactly what they want.

[cizinec]

Geez, SP, you sound like you want to "agree him" to death. ÂÂ    

Patriots are wonderful, SP, but you need to learn to TEMPER it a bit.  I still don't think you understand SouthSerb. I hope you will search for SouthSerb's other posts on this forum. ÂÂ

but look at how we have been repaid by allbright and indeed the whole jewish establishment running the US right now.

Be careful there.  That "whole Jewish establishment" still has a lot of pro-Serbs in it.  We have a sympathetic Orthodox Jew who posts on this board.  They are going through the same thing in Israel.  Don't equate liberal American "Jews" who don't practice Judaism with religous Jews who are suffering at the hands of the same guys murdering in Kosovo and Bosnia.

I think the problem is that you don't know SouthSerb very well and that, if you did, you would find yourself in agreement with him. ÂÂ

Back off for a minute, cool down, then go read his other posts.

[cizinec]

Let me rephrase, you need to temper the way you express your patriotism when communicating with others who are distrustful of it or who will not immediately understand it.

I don't mean to say you should be less of a patriot.

[cizinec]

By the way, since I have your attention, don't forget to go to church this week, go to confession and commune and all that.ÂÂ  A lot of the guys at our church show up late or just come for the soccer game after.ÂÂ  I'm not saying you don't, but I figured I'd get a plug in anyway.

 

My priest would be proud.   

[SiviSokol]

SP:

Chill.  You are being very unpleasant.

...The fact that an Orthodox Albanian is here is irrelevant, he's neither a Croat nor a Muslim, i don't know why you mention him. ...

There are Orthodox Croatians- not many- but I'm one.  I don't like to hear this sort of stuff.  Go peddle it elsewhere.

Well racially yes i do agree with that.  But you well know that Muslims cannot be Serbs by definition. ÂÂ
I notice you use the word if, since you realise that i never said anything of the sort.

Shows how well educated you are.  Mesa Selimovic, a very famous writer from Bosnia, and Mehmed Pasa Sokolovic (Znas li cuprija u Visegradu, znas li knjigu "na drinu Cuprija"?)- are just two of many.

Im proud of our fighting legacy brother, but look at how we have been repaid by allbright and indeed the whole Jewish establishment running the US right now.  They know nothing of truth, honour or justice, as for gratitude you can forget it.

Wow, you have something in common with Franjo Tudjman.  Whaddaya know, you both are antisemites.  Nice job.

Why are you afraid of patriots? Patriots should be orthodox and visa versa. I indeed am orthodox, i don't know what i said that leads you to believe otherwise.

Reminds me of an old joke, "...Yeah, he sure is Orthodox, but are you sure He's Christian?.."

Why don't you cool off and say the Jesus prayer for a little while.

[Serbian Patriot]

SP:

Chill.  You are being very unpleasant.


There are Orthodox Croatians- not many- but I'm one.  I don't like to hear this sort of stuff.  Go peddle it elsewhere.

 
Go peddle what?  I never said that there weren't Orthodox Croatians.  I said that they were simply not relevant to the discussion.

Shows how well educated you are.  Mesa Selimovic, a very famous writer from Bosnia, and Mehmed Pasa Sokolovic (Znas li cuprija u Visegradu, znas li knjigu "na drinu Cuprija"?)- are just two of many.

no Serb is called Mehmed

Wow, you have something in common with Franjo Tudjman.  Whaddaya know, you both are antisemites.  Nice job.

Its sad that the world media has done their job so effectively that when the the victim points out the aggressor there is a neat lable to throw at the victim which blackens him totally, and cleanses the aggressor of all guilt.  You make a grave accusation against me, i am merely stating facts.  Clintons administration and to a large extent Bushs is filled with members of the jewish lobby.  If this statement of the obvious makes me an anti-semite, then I am incredulous.

Reminds me of an old joke, "...Yeah, he sure is Orthodox, but are you sure He's Christian?.."

Why don't you cool off and say the Jesus prayer for a little while. 

Please you are not my spiritual father to recommend prayers to me, especially after attacking me with your politically correct accusations.  Do not call into question others Christianity, when we are debating facts.

[SiviSokol]

Facts.  Um, yeah.

Mehmed Pasa Sokolovic was the brother of Makarije, who would later become the Serbian Patriarch.  He was born in the small village of Sokolovici near Visegrad and was taken in the donat u krv. He was trained in the Janissary corps and rose in the ranks of the Ottomon hierarchy to grand Vizier. 

Its sad that the world media has done their job so effectively that when the the victim points out the aggressor there is a neat lable to throw at the victim which blackens him totally, and cleanses the aggressor of all guilt. You make a grave accusation against me, i am merely stating facts. Clintons administration and to a large extent Bushs is filled with members of the jewish lobby. If this statement of the obvious makes me an anti-semite, then I am incredulous.

It would make more sense to blame White Protestant men, since they are/were far greater percentage of each administration.  Oh, wait,I forgot they add the "masonic" part to the Jewish-Masonic consipiracy to enslave all Serbians.  I apologize, you are completely right.

[Serbian Patriot]

Facts.ÂÂ  Um, yeah.

Mehmed Pasa Sokolovic was the brother of Makarije, who would later become the Serbian Patriarch.ÂÂ  He was born in the small village of Sokolovici near Visegrad and was taken in the donat u krv. He was trained in the Janissary corps and rose in the ranks of the Ottomon hierarchy to grand Vizier.ÂÂ  

A member of the ottoman hierarchy is only a Serb by blood, he is for all other intents and purposes no longer a Serb.

It would make more sense to blame White Protestant men, since they are/were far greater percentage of each administration.ÂÂ  Oh, wait,I forgot they add the "masonic" part to the Jewish-Masonic consipiracy to enslave all Serbians.ÂÂ  I apologize, you are completely right.

You keep straying off the point, someone mentioned madeleine allbright so i mentioned the jewish lobby.  You seem to be almost willing me to be an anti-semitic conspiracy theorist so that you can sink your politically correct teeth into me.  Whoever mentioned free masons or conspiracies to enslave Serbs?  Stop your wishfull thinking and stick to the topic at hand.

[SiviSokol]

Remind me of the point again?

All I saw was an initial attack on a longstanding- and very Serbian- board member, whose posts I like very much.
Then came some angry blather that was all over the map and that included incorrect information.


btw, Mehmed Pasa restored the Serbian Patriarchate in 1557, and was instrumental in seeing his brother installed as Patriarch.  Whether you like it or not, he was a Serb.

[Serbian Patriot]

Remind me of the point again?

In future it might be an idea to check the point out, before you dive in head first with your politically correct attacks.

[SiviSokol]

My response was tongue-in-cheek.  You were the one that initially missed SouthSerb's point, and then kept on swinging.

[SouthSerb99]

SP,

I'm just going to say a couple of things here...

How I can tell that you are from Sar Planina by looking at your screen name i don't know.

Well, if you took the advice of just about everyone here, you'd have a little more insight into faulty presumptions you've made.

Like this for example...

ÂÂ

I think we have a fundamental disagreement here, are you implying that there should be a multitude of Serbian banana states?

NO!  This is exactly why you should read before you speak (or write in this instance).  Self determination means the right to decide what to do with yourself.

ie- If you decide to reunite with your brothers and sisters all across the Balkans than it is your right to do so.

It's really not that difficult to understand where I'm coming from, that is, if you had taken the time to open your mind, before opening your mouth.

God willing i will never enter that God-forsaken political circus trying to pass itself off as a court of law and justice.

Again, if you had read more, you would have seen that I have always said none of our people should be at the Hague.  Any criminals should be tried in Serbia.

Having said that, that is not the reality, so I choose to try to make a difference.

Well racially yes i do agree with that.  But you well know that muslims cannot be Serbs by definition. 
I notice you use the word if, since you realise that i never said anything of the sort.

I R O N Y!

CCCC

[PrinceMarko]

I'm the orthodox albanian in here mentioned.. and yes, I'm a HUGE supporter of Serbia's postion on Kosovo.  The fact that Mladic commited allegeded war crimes is a grey area.  Genenva convention rules also state that anyone caught in the field fighting without a uniform with ensignia on, are allowed to be executed in the field.  Serbia was in a WAR, bad things happen in a war.  Both sides commited heinous acts, but as one US general said "the more violent a war is, the quicker its over".  This Balkan conflicts are just spill-over conflicts from other muslim conflicts similiarities are that they are funded and influenced from the Middle East brand of extremism.

Now in albania, we have a group of wahabbi/safalists albanians that came from arab schools trying to call for sharia law. Bosnia is a haven for muslim terrorists(madrid bombings).  The reality of the situation is this: Muslims keep pushing and pushing european/christian west, its only natural that we push back.  The balkans has been a buffer zone that the Ottomans made artificially between christianity and islam. Its only because Christian blood in Serbia, parts of Albania, and Greece that has kept islam out of europe. Instead of bickering over petty issues, its more important to see a bigger picture and to combat islamic influence in the balkans.

Mladic did what every other soldier does, he kills to win. ÂÂ No big surprise. ÂÂ If he goes to jail, so be it. Orthodox in the Balkans have bigger issues than to defend his military actions. ÂÂ Honestly, i'm sure 90% of us would do the same thing if in a war. He is a soldier, not a priest. He did what he was supposed to do: win at all costs.  Mladic now can be used as a political point to solidify Serbia's international PR image and position as  pro-peace and pro-Europe which is far more important. Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no Crime.

[Anastasios]

Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no Crime.

Yeah, tell that to the people who died during the French revolution.

Anastasios

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