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Author Topic: HOLY ASSEMBLY OF BISHOPS OF THE SOC issue Tomos  (Read 2063 times) Average Rating: 0
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SouthSerb99
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« on: June 03, 2005, 02:31:10 PM »

Here is the statement of the Holy Assembly of Bishops of the Serbian Orthodox Church as it pertains to the Macedonian Orthodox Church.

Most interesting (to me) is that they declared the faithful schismatic. 

Deeply regretting that the apostatic church hierarchy in the Republic of Macedonia has not been sufficiently responsible and sincere in dialogue to date on the overcoming of schism, and that it has not responded to the multiple invitations of His Holiness the Patriarch to return to the blessed and salvation-bearing unity of the Church, the Assembly was informed of the Patriarch’s confirmation of the election of Metropolitan Jovan of Veles and Povardarje as Archbishop of Ochrid and Metropolitan of Skoplje, the president of the Holy Synod of the Autonomous Archdiocese of Ochrid and its Head, followed by the approval of the final text of the Patriarch’s and Assembly’s Tomos on Autonomy of the Archdiocese of Ochrid, which will soon be submitted to the Ecumenical Patriarchate in Constantinople, as well as to all local Orthodox Churches in the world.

So that the faithful people in Macedonia may understand the full destructiveness of schism and the need for church unity, the Assembly advises that its decision of the Serbian Orthodox Church from 1967 interrupting liturgical and canonical communion with the episcopate and clergy in schism will in future also apply to all faithful who, after so many decades of leniency and so many appeals by the Mother Church, remain persistent in schism. At the same time, the Assembly hopes that the most recent letter of His Holiness Serbian Patriarch Pavle to the head of the Church in schism, Archbishop Stefan, written during the period of the Assembly’s session, will bear spiritual fruit.


Any thoughts?

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« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2005, 10:36:42 PM »

This is just another case of "communist testament".

Slavic Macedonians should have their own Church (I am sorry, many Greeks and Serbs will disagree).
The fact is that Slavic Macedonians have been in the Balkans as long as Serb or Bulgarians.
And they (Slavic Macedonians) are not either Serbs or Bulgarians.
So, why not have their own Church.
They have their own country.

But, the way that "MOC" is going about this is wrong.
Their actions make all those who are supportive turn arround.
I think that they have a wrong attitude in this.

Serbs did not go and spit on Greeks and destroyed Greek Churches while asking for Autocephaly (800 years ago).
Greeks would have told us to get lost.

So, same way, brothers Macedonians, change your attitude.
We hold the keys of your Autocephaly.
No one else.
This is not arrogancy this is the fact.
Keep on insulting, burning Churches, spitting.. and you will NEVER get it... NOT EVEN THEN.

Grow love, show that you are truly Orthodox Church, and I do not think anyone will have a problem with "MOC" being MOC.

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« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2005, 11:55:54 PM »

I think the idea that Macedonians aren't Serbian is problematic.  Of course, I think saying the Croats and Serbs aren't the same ethnic group is problematic.  There are regional and linguistic variations, but no more than between Czechs and Moravians.  They all consider themselves to be Czech.  Well, mostly. 

The problem comes when minor regional differences are used to define a group as a distinct nationality and, therefore, a distinct nation.  Good grief, if we let Vojvodina or even parts of Austria and, heck, most of Europe do that we'd have city-states all over again.  I guess that's what some Europeans want.  Then the rest of them want to be the EU.

 . . . and they say we Americans are funny.   Grin

SV, I'm not meaning to argue with you.  I think you're right on about the method.  I'm just lamenting the whole "I'm a nation" mentality in Europe.

My goodness, my wife is proud to be Slovak but is letting our kids grow up with a lot of Serbian stuff because "we're all Slavs."  I've almost reached the conclusion that pan-Slavism is the best solution to these problems.  If y'all could work together Kosovo wouldn't be all Albanian and you'd still have Christians living in Sarajevo.

Now let's all sing "Cumbaya."
« Last Edit: June 06, 2005, 11:57:17 PM by cizinec » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2005, 12:05:15 AM »

I really don't know "Cizi", I never saw them (Slavic Macedonians) as Serbs.
Maybe I am wrong.
I also never met anyone who is a Serb and actually sees them as Serbs.

Then again, that could be the result of growing up in separation from the Church under "Titoic" Yugoslavia.

I see your point, I just do not think that now, we can change the status in the balkans (that is "make" someone Serb if they don't want to be that Grin).

Also, I would rather have MOC that is in good relations with the rest then "MOC" that thinks to go that far to even consider "Latinization" to gain "canonical values".

Also, I am far from being subject matter expert, I just state my oppinion (easily changed if the elements are there, mainly proof that I am wrong).

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« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2005, 02:16:23 AM »

Actually Stefan, they are most;y Bulgarian, which would explain why the Serbs don't see them as Serbian. The MOC is wrong, not because they don't have the right to autocephaly when they are a mature body, but because they are merely a tool of the communist government in their efforts to fabricate a national identity where there was none before.

Skopians hate to be reminded of their Bulgarian heritage. If you visit forums run by these people you will find that on some of them it is a banning offense to post something in Bulgarian! It upsets them to know thew can read Bulgarian without ever having studied it in their life.

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« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2005, 02:43:42 AM »

John, them (ok, Skopians) would be very offended to be called Bulgarians.
Now, whether that has any historical truth I just do not know.
I grew up as seeing them as "Macedonians" (whilst former Yugoslavia Existed, I didn't even know that brothers Greeks are not happy with the name of Macedonia).
I am just saying what I know and how I have been thought.

Montenegrians are (for me) Montenegrians. They are and can be considered Serbs, but if some brother Montenegrian will underline that he is Montengerian and not a Serb, I do not have a problem with that.
Same, if a Macedonian (Slavic, Skopian) reckons that he is not a Serb nor Bulgarian I do not have a problem with him being whatever he might feel to be.
I do not wish to alienate anyone so I would feel good.

"MOC" is a communist testament, but I do not see any reasons why it would not be MOC.

Except, that as long as they go about it the way they do, with arrogance and hate I do not think that anything will change. (and this is a huge one for me)
Also, I know and can understand why lot of people would not like Serbs and why Serbs would not like lot of people-but Skopians have done nothing but hurt Serbs and we never answered.
We have smashed Bosnian Moslems for much less.

I would suggest them to develope some sense of geography. They are spitting on Serbs, Bulgarians, Albanians and Greeks. (Why geography? You do not hang rubish on ALL OF THOSE WHO SURROUND YOU! and that is what they do....)

I do not mind Skopians..I just think that they have done everything wrong since they became independent. They managed to loose the friends and the Church to gain the country that is surrounded by those who they spat on for the last 15 years. Now I am not a diplomat, but something is wrong there.

I do not know, but I think that they should think long and hard about ways to get along with their neighbours. They can use Serbs as a free lesson. After 10 years of war, we have to sit behind the nagotiating table...

Skopians, are doing it all wrong.


One note on the language and nation: I can read Croatian and I did study it, but I am not a croat (this is to say that I disagree in using that methodology in proving a belonging to the nation... it just does not work with Southern Slavs)
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« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2005, 08:30:08 AM »

S-V,

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree for two reasons. First and foremost is autocephally is not a right, it is a privilege. In order that the FYROMians have an autocephalous Church, let them do it according to the Canons.

As you correctly point out, the modern "Macedonian Orthodox Church" was a creation of Tito, aimed at weakening the strength of the Serbian Orthodox Church in Yugoslavia. In that regard, I say fine let the Macedonians have an autocephalous Church, but let them do it according the Canons and Traditions of the Church.

The second area I disagree with you is the area that Macedonians are not Serbs. I think it is better to say that all Macedonians are not Serbs. Just as all Macedonians are not Bulgarians.

I think in the modern context Macedonian Slavs all started out as either Serbs or Bulgars, but over time (and communist indoctrination), they were "Macedonianized".

So, in a sense I do think "Macedonia" and "Macedonians" exist as a people, albeit completely different then the Macedonians of Alexander's time. I think that is where the "modern" Macedonians really get it wrong. They really have bastardized history so terribly, to lay claim to the throne of Alexander. Now, we all know that is a bunch of B.S., but check out pretty much every Macedonian website and you'll see that they really do lay claim over and over again.

Now, getting back to the part about Macedonians not being Serbs... let me give you a personal story...

As you know, my family originally hails from Kosovo. We fled the area after the murder of one of my great grandfathers, only to settle in the Sar Mountain range (Sar Planina), present day FYROM. In the villages surrounding where my family settled everyone were Serbs (they had been in the region for more than 1000 years). They had typical Serbian characteristics, like the celebration of Slava both for family and villages. Pretty much everyones last name ended in "ic" (a typical Serbian last name). You get the idea.

However, as Tito took over and the communist grip strengthened, the Serbian education was removed from the region, replacing it with this new "foreign" language called "Macedonian". Names were forcibly changed from "ic" to "ski" and entire family histories began to erode.  Sima Stojkovic became Simce Stojkovski.

Look at what famed Serbian historian Slavenko Terzic wrote on the subject...

Immediately after the liberation from the occupying forces, in 1945, the requests to become a part of the newly formed federal unit of Serbia came from some regions of Macedonia in spite of the terror of the new Macedonian government. The typical example was the plea of the rural population in the Vratnica municipality, Tetovo district. In a letter to the minister for Serbia in the Government of the Democratic Federal Yugoslavia the inhabitants of these villages stated: "We, the Serbs from the Vratnica municipality have never felt otherwise but as Serbs, the same as our ancestors, and it has been so for centuries. Because of that we suffered extremely during the occupation both in the last World War and in this one that ended recently. During the occupation in this war, 41 Serbs were executed by firing squads, some were Interned and there was not a single Serb between the age of 15 and 66 that was not beaten and molested to exhaustion." The inhabitants in the Vratnica municipality also complained about the new Macedonian officials and listed the main reasons such as: "In our district the administrative authorities are mostly constituted of the persons who were Fascist collaborators, the persons who welcomed the German army with delight, the persons who held religious service of thanksgiving when the German armada was victorious though the Germans never requested such things from the city dwellers." Even an example is given: during the occupation the village representative in the Vratnica municipality was Andra Hristov from Tetovo (in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia he was a clerk in the Tetovo district court, but then his surname was Serbian - Risti-ç), who is now said to be "...an official of the people's administration authorities in Skopje.

http://www.rastko.org.yu/istorija/srbi-balkan/sterzic-macedonian.html

This article intrigued me because the "Vratnica Municipality" is the area where my family settled, to be with their Serbian brethren. For the most part, the people of Vratnica still understand that they are Serbs, but many of the surrounding areas have forgotten.

Look at this...

SPECIAL USE REQUESTS
 

11.    (Taken Out of Order) PUBLIC HEARING - REVISED SPECIAL USE REQUEST AND SITE PLAN - Proposed Church - North Side of Wattles, West of John R - Section 14 (SU-306)

      Mr. Keisling explained that, at the May Regular Meeting, the Planning Commission granted Special Use Approval and Preliminary Site Plan Approval for the construction of the St. Petka Vratnica Serbian Orthodox Church complex on a 7.77 acre parcel in the area north of Wattles Road and west of John R.
http://www.ci.troy.mi.us/committees/minutes/Planning20001212.htm

That is the planning approval for a Church the people of Vratnica just built on the outskirts of Detroit. Now, if we look up a map, we know Vratnica is clearly within the geographic boundaries of FYROM, so why do they build a Serbian Orthodox Church?

Simple, because they are some of the few, that have not been totally brainwashed by 60 years of State sponsored propaganda. The Vratnica example is good one, because it is not just one person, but an entire village of Serbs. Do you know how many of these you can find throughout FYROM? The FYROM government hates them, because they offer a window into the past, the government in Skoplje doesn't want known.  For example the surrounding four villages are much the same (Beloviste, Staro Selo, and Rogacevo).

Furthermore, the linguistic traits of the villagers from the Tetovo region are almost identical Tsar Dusan's "old Serbian". Convinced yet?

In any event, I think you can pretty much find every Serb in FYROM by asking them if they have a Slava. If so, they're Serbs, whether they are willing to admit it or not.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2005, 08:35:48 AM by SouthSerb99 » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2005, 08:38:51 AM »

Brother SS,

I did acknowledge that I am not a subject matter expert and that my historic knowledge is "provided" by communist schooling. (Talk about influencing young minds!!)

I lived in Bosnia so my knowledge of Macedonian issue is very limited. I base what I said on what I know.

Now, if you say that I am wrong I will accept that due to a fact that you do know the actual story. (Again what I know was "provided" by schooling in Titoic Yugoslavia-as you know fairly anti-serb indoctrination).

I am sorry that I do not know much on this theme.

Also, I completely agree with you in regard to issues surrounding right/priviledge of Autocephaly.
That is also my point, maybe I did not explain it clearly enough.

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« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2005, 08:45:19 AM »

Brother,

No need to apologize.  Clearly, you can see this is a topic I am passionate about.

I guess I'm in a state of high anxiety, because I've been reading what the "Macedonians" have been saying about this matter and it is ugly.

They FYROM media have really demonized our Blessed Patriarch and the whole of our Church.  At the same time, the blaspheme against our sister Greek Church and against the Oecumenical Patriarchate.

Again, I have no problem accepting Macedonian autocephally, just not as handed down by Tito.

I also think this matter is very interesting inasmuch as the Tomos by the Holy Synod effectively gave the boot to the laity in Macedonia.  Do you think they even understand what this means?
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« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2005, 09:00:30 AM »

I am aware of the fact that they do have a very low oppinion of the Great Patriarch and our Holy Churches as well as Holy Churches of Greece.



Lord says that by their fruits we will recognize them.

I can not do much more that pray so that unfortunate people see that darkness is there not because of the time of the day but because of their blindness.

Lord have mercy.

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« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2005, 09:51:15 AM »

Stefan, I have a different take.  Okay, I’m not defending Titoist Communism, but these are my thoughts.

We need to define what we mean by “ethnicity” and then “nationality”. 

By nationality, I think the appropriate definition is: 
Quote
a people having a common origin, tradition, and language and capable of forming or actually constituting a nation-state.

The definition of ethnic group: 
Quote
groups of people classed according to common racial, national, tribal, religious, linguistic, or cultural origin or background
.

These definitions are almost identical.  However, there is a difference in scale between ethnicity and nationality.  Ethnicity is more detailed than nationality.  Differences such as tribal, religious, *cultural* origin and background are considered.

Racial difference - Is there a racial difference between Macedonian Slavs and Serbs?  I’m not sure if this can be answered without DNA “genealogy” tests some archaeologists and the like have been using lately.  Those tests are pretty new and untested and I don’t know how accurate they are.  If they could be done I think that there would probably be some nasty political fallout.  The Serbs may not have as much “Slavic blood” as they thought and “Bosniaks” would be hilariously indistinguishable from their neighbors. 

Historical accounts of racial differences are generally twisted by those who see Macedonian Slavs as being Bulgarian, Greek, Serb or distinct.  I know that Bulgaria has been very insistent that Macedonian Slavs are Bulgarian, primarily because of linguistic ties.

Language - Because linguistic preferences can be so heavily influenced by political and social stress, I don’t think that a “language only” test is very appropriate when determining whether a group is or is not a distinct ethnic group, although it is more helpful when determining nationality.  For instance, if we use language only then my wife is an Anglo, something she will fiercely deny.  The same is true of the remnants of Sudeten Germans left in Moravia.  The ones I met didn’t speak German.  Does that mean that they are not ethnic Germans because they don’t speak German?  The ones I met didn’t see it that way.

Common and Cultural Origin - If we calculate into the mix common and cultural origin, I think the separation is much more problematic.  Do Macedonians celebrate Slava?  Did most Macedonians celebrate Slava?  If so, when did they begin to do this, when under control by the Serbs or when they were Christianized along with the Serbs or as members of the same group?  The answers to those questions are certainly indicators of cultural origin.  Yes, there are a lot of questions concerning cultural origins, but what about common origins?  Is there any doubt that the Macedonian Slavs have a common origin with the other Slavs from former Yugoslavia?  I don’t think so.  Linguistic ties aside, I think the Bulgarian claims are overstated.

Religious Differences - They are both predominantly Orthodox and share many national saints and history.  This is a test that fails in the “ethnicity” definition, although they are certainly a separate ethnic group.

Since Macedonian Slavs have a common tradition and language and have formed a nation-state, I guess saying they aren’t currently a nationality would be wrong.  It also wouldn’t be wrong to argue that all Southern Slavs have those traits in common.  It depends on how far down into these questions one wants to look.  For ethnicity, if you go down far enough then every family unit is its own ethnicity.  If you don’t go down at all, the whole world is one big, happy nationality.  I think the truth is in the middle and the middle isn’t what happened in Yugoslavia in general and Macedonia in particular.

Do I think that Macedonians are there own ethnic group?  Yes.  Do I think they are a legitimate nationality?  Not really.  I think everyone was better off with ethnic groups with one nationality.

I am admittedly influenced by pan-Slavic sympathies and I’m not even an amateur in this area, let alone an expert.   Grin
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« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2005, 10:12:18 AM »

LOL

Go to Skopje and tell them this and I will go to Zagreb and tell those the same....

If we pray a lot before speaking,
we might even get a "red letter" date in a calendar with our names,
for, our heads will definitely roll.

I am seeing what you are saying and even though I am fully AGREEING with youy, I think that REALITY of the situation implies that this view will not work.
(It would have if we "Balkaners" were not "Balkaners"LOL).

Everyone wants the statehood and nationhood.. it is a cool thing to have. It does not matter how many people we kill... those will be our reality. (Unfortunately, some dreams of planing turn into nightmares of realization).

To quote my dad ( with a screwdriver in one hand and scratching his head with the other, standing over assembled TV that he "fixed", and now there are some "parts that just do not belong anywhere"):"I am just not smart enough".


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« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2005, 10:55:09 AM »

I will move to have the both of you Beatifide!  angel
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« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2005, 02:56:20 PM »

Quote
Go to Skopje and tell them this and I will go to Zagreb and tell those the same....
:laugh3:

That's okay, man.  I'll just anonymously tell y'all.
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« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2005, 02:57:18 PM »

Oh, and I'll need to buy a big cowbow hat and belt buckle so they'll see me as a local and listen to what I have to say.
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