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Author Topic: Just what is going on around here?  (Read 1953 times) Average Rating: 0
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Pravoslavbob
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« on: June 03, 2005, 02:18:18 AM »

Hey Everyone,

Woah woah. I just want to stand back and take a deep breath after having read some of the recent postings here. I want to offer my own meagre thoughts on this....

I don't get it.....why does everyone seem to want to talk about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin lately on this forum? It seems to me that this kind of thing gives great delight to the Evil One.

I think that when we argue points here, we have to struggle to be as objective as possible. Sometimes, a poster may have a valid point to make that we have not thought about. And sure, sometimes that same poster may simply be wrong about something. I think extreme zealotry of any sort is very disturbing. Not wishing to single out anyone, and to cite just one example of many, should we really make blanket statements like "ecumenism is the heresy of heresies"? Well, some ecumenism is clearly heretical. And then some may not be, or could be seen as being beneficial and questionable as well. Some MIGHT even be downright good. Orthodoxy is not a nice package wrapped up in a little box. To insist that it is would be idolatry.

To think critically demands that we look at all sides of an issue. Not one of us is infallible. And thinking critically and being open to other arguments, one is still able to refute certain arguments and remain Orthodox in conviction at the end of the day. What do we have to fear? As Orthodox believers, we should be set free from fear, not constantly giving in to it. And I do not advocate that we lose our vigilance for the True Faith.

If we have the True Faith, then why do we so often adopt a kind of sectarian siege mentality? The epistle to the Hebrews makes it clear that the Truth will set you free. Do we prefer instead a kind of pharisaical righteousness to this freedom? This is a great temptation for Orthodox Christians. Please, brethren, let's not make ourselves playthings of the Evil One and his minions. Let's instead try to discern the spirits, since we have the mind of Christ.

Christ is Risen! Indeed He is Risen!

(I will not be posting much for quite some time, since I am off in the woods with little internet access. Please pray for me!)

Bob
« Last Edit: June 03, 2005, 05:29:41 PM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

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EkhristosAnesti
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« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2005, 04:15:18 AM »

I like you.

Peace.
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« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2005, 08:44:50 AM »

I am thoroughly Orthodox, but I hold various diverging opinions on various issues. Why must one get angry if someone else does not agree. We don't all see the world through the same lenses, and opinions will always differ.
We are Christians. As such, we should conduct ourselves accordingly. If you feel offended by another post, send a PM and discuss it privately. Don’t have a 'dog fight' in front of the world. Lets keep the board civil, even if we don't agree.

Just my opinion, of course Wink
« Last Edit: June 03, 2005, 08:47:13 AM by Kolya » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2005, 09:35:22 AM »

I think the problem is that people list to "A** Like That" and then come on the board to post instead of listening to "In meines Herzens Grunde" or various settings of the Divine Liturgy or the like. 

Are we spending as much time in prayer as we do in front of our boob tubes?  Do we know our prayers as well as pop songs - regardless of genre? 

Am I suggesting that a forum with a busy thread on the merits and benfits of hip-hop will likely degenerate into an adolescent fracas?  If I say yes, a suprising number of antagonists will come together to tell me how wrong I am . . . about hip-hop.  I find that odd.
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« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2005, 09:38:02 AM »

Quote
Orthodoxy is not a nice package wrapped up in a little box.

Bull. I saw it for sale on E-bay last week. It went for $25.64; a reasonable price, I suppose, but the shipping was outrageous.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2005, 09:38:28 AM by cizinec » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2005, 09:43:45 AM »

Quote
I think the problem is that people list to "A** Like That" and then come on the board to post instead of listening to "In meines Herzens Grunde" or various settings of the Divine Liturgy or the like. 

Are we spending as much time in prayer as we do in front of our boob tubes?  Do we know our prayers as well as pop songs - regardless of genre? 

Am I suggesting that a forum with a busy thread on the merits and benfits of hip-hop will likely degenerate into an adolescent fracas?  If I say yes, a suprising number of antagonists will come together to tell me how wrong I am . . . about hip-hop.  I find that odd.

Quite True!

Quote
Bull.  I saw it for sale on E-bay last week.  It went for $25.64; a reasonable price, I suppose, but the shipping was outrageous.
Posted on: Today at 15:35:22Posted by: cizinec 


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« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2005, 03:12:14 PM »

[/lurk]

I've just recently come back to OC.net after an extended hiatus.  One of the reasons that I left was the continued and constant invectives against this group or that group, against "Monophysites," "Sergian Ecumenist Pan-Heretics," "Orthoducks," "Ultradox," et cetera, et cetera, ad infinitum, ad nauseam.  I left for a time, thinking that it might calm down and also because I needed time to read the Fathers and spiritual texts for myself.

Now that I'm back, I'll start up by saying that to an extent, I agree with the traditionalists on this forum.  However, does that mean that I have to throw mud at anyone who disagrees with me every chance I get?  I think no.  Does that mean that I could tactfully state my position and try to avoid stepping on as few toes as possible?  Yes, it does.

I've got a feeling that this thread is going to get swamped with people screaming "ORTHODOXIA O THANATOS!!!!"/"PRAVOSLAVNIE ILI SMERT!!!!!!!"/"ORTHODOXY OR DEATH!!!!!!!", but I feel this thread needs to be here.

There's wisdom in the OP.  How many people will listen to it is a different story...

XB!
-Philip

[lurk]
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Felipe Ortiz
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« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2005, 06:17:22 PM »

Just a few additional suggestions:

a) We may be easily tempted to look at ourselves as enlightened Prophets and regard this board as our personal pulpit. It would be better if we avoided to fall into such temptation.

b) Instead, we could try to see this forum primarily as a good and large network of people from different regions and backgrounds that may provide us easy and first-hand acess to data and facts we could hardly find otherwise. Such an unique network may indeed fulfill its goals if we simply treat nicely its (generally unknown) members. After all, they deserve to be nicely treated: they are, at the very least, our free collaborators... Even if they say something we vehemently disagree, their statements may serve at least as a sign that some wrong things are indeed thought or made somewhere. For the purposes of a webforum, this may be enough.

c) Such a good and seemingly free data-sourcing opportunity has actually a cost. Most of times, we would do well if we refrained to disclose our personal interpretation of the facts exposed here, or our moral or theological valuation of such facts, especially if our conclusions are likely to offend other posters' fundamental beliefs, religious or otherwise. If the disclosure of such interpretations and valuations is perceived by us as a part of our religious duty -- as it may well be -- so they would be better divulged in personal websites or blogs. But not here. In a personal website, nobody is expected to find but the personal views of its owner, outrageous (to some) as they may be; those ones who do not want to know of them simply may choose not to visit it. But in a public forum, the most important feature is the network itself and the multiple data-sourcing opportunities it offers, not the personal views of this or that member, no matter how smart they are. If such a network is to work, a large amount of concessions and pacience is required from all members without exception.

In the long run, personal sites tend to receive as much attention as they deserve. But forum posters, specially in the short run, tend to receive as much attention as they post, regardless of their intrinsical merits. This inherent unfairness is likely to attract mediocre posters who would not receive any attention otherwise.

d) The statements I've just made do not must to be always true -- and they indeed are not. Useful and enlightening controversies do exist. But they are scanter than we are usually prone to admit when we were just provoked by somebody and are to engage ourselves in another controversy. Undeniably, most ot the attempts of promoting a good and interesting controversy usually produce nothing but the alienation of some forum members, the harshening of the climate and the consequential reduction of the usefullness of the forum as a data source. Not to mention the further proliferation of already too abundant samples of bad rhetorics and dialectics. The potential benefits of a useful controversy, pondered by its low probability, usually do not meet the costs of a useless controversy, pondered by its high probability.

e) The most important application of the ideas above, in my opinion, is: the bold denounciation of heresies, except when generally regarded as such, would be better made in personal websites. One could naturally employ the data found here to make his case better; but the forum members as a whole, specially when not few of them are likely to disagree with the ideas displayed, generally could and should be spared from the case itself.

EDIT: I must admit that I have not always behaved according to what I've just wrote here. I beg your forgiveness for that.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2005, 06:30:00 PM by Felipe Ortiz » Logged
EkhristosAnesti
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« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2005, 09:58:36 PM »

Quote
Does that mean that I could tactfully state my position and try to avoid stepping on as few toes as possible? Yes, it does.

I would have to disagree with your position here. I don’t think anyone should feel obliged to be diplomatic or politically correct if that is simply not in their nature; I simply feel they should be obliged to be honest regardless of whether that is in their nature or not.

Do not call me a monophysite; not for the sake of “avoiding to step on my toes” (to slightly rephrase your above expression), but because it is DISHONEST; it is a claim that cannot be substantiated, and one that is and has been easily, and effortlessly refuted.

People might want to turn certain church fathers into Gods, and make the Church an infallible fourth member of the Godhead to the extent that they consider it utter blasphemy to acknowledge the hardcore God-given-and-preserved evidence which proves beyond reasonable doubt, that those who ever attributed this title to my church, did so in either ignorance or deceit. They surely have the right to be dishonest with themselves, but if they plan to pursue such dishonesty in a public arena/forum, they should expect those who are being directly charged and offended with these lies to pounce in self-defense, just as St Agathon did.

Peace.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2005, 10:00:59 PM by EkhristosAnesti » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2005, 10:19:42 PM »

I like this:

"No one should feel obliged to be diplomatic ot politically correct if that is simply not their nature.."
(Ekhristos Anesti)

Oh, I love that a lot.


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EkhristosAnesti
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« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2005, 10:27:58 PM »

Quote
I like this:

"No one should feel obliged to be diplomatic ot politically correct if that is simply not their nature.."
(Ekhristos Anesti)

Oh, I love that a lot.

Love it according to the context in which it was stated, and in conjunction to the above comments made by Pravoslavbob in this thread, and Elisha and Pedro in the previous locked thread, and we have no problems here.

But reading over some of your comments in other threads; it seems that you are only able to love such a comment excluded in the manner you have quoted it, for you have clearly violated the qualifying context. I have no time to deal with such posts now - I'm "2 minute response EA" for the next month until my exams are over. Back to work for nowGǪ

Peace.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2005, 10:28:27 PM by EkhristosAnesti » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2005, 10:28:28 PM »

I think that behaviour is important no matter how certain one is of the truth of what they say or believe.
What this, as well as the situation in Palestine, the Former Yugoslavia, Uganda, Mozambique and other hotspots boil down to is this:
"We either learn to live together as brothers, or we will perish together as fools."
or as Patriarch Pavle said:
"The land of God is wide and large enough to provide room for everyone if we are humans. If we act like brutes, then there will not be enough room even if there are only four of us."
« Last Edit: June 03, 2005, 10:28:56 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2005, 10:51:15 PM »



Love it according to the context in which it was stated, and in conjunction to the above comments made by Pravoslavbob in this thread, and Elisha and Pedro in the previous locked thread, and we have no problems here.

But reading over some of your comments in other threads; it seems that you are only able to love such a comment excluded in the manner you have quoted it, for you have clearly violated the qualifying context. I have no time to deal with such posts now - I'm "2 minute response EA" for the next month until my exams are over. Back to work for nowGǪ

Peace.



Which basically means, it is O.K. as long as one agrees with you. As soon as one does not, let him be anathema! Huh
« Last Edit: June 03, 2005, 10:51:32 PM by sin_vladimirov » Logged

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EkhristosAnesti
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« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2005, 02:33:35 AM »

Quote
Which basically means, it is O.K. as long as one agrees with you. As soon as one does not, let him be anathema!

The context to which I referred to as providing the qualifying conditions to the statement you quoted - a context I determined not only in reference to my own post, but those made by reasonable others - essentially calls people to be objective, honest, open-minded, and critical in their approach; which does not necessarily consequently entail the compromise of one's genuine beliefs/position, or their choice to be raw and direct (without needing to be a suck-up politician/diplomat).

If one therefore disagrees that they need to be objective, honest, open-minded and critical when dishing out claims against others, and in dealing with the response to those claimsGǪthen indeed, let him be anathemaGǪ Smiley

Peace.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2005, 02:35:03 AM by EkhristosAnesti » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2005, 05:49:14 AM »

Disregard, You win!

« Last Edit: June 04, 2005, 05:57:49 AM by sin_vladimirov » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2005, 07:50:18 AM »

Quote
Disregard, You win!

When honesty, objectivity, critical thinking, and open-mindedness etc. are promoted; then is the the truth and reason of God vindicatedGǪSuch that He who is the progentior of Truth and Reason, and His Word who encompasses such Truth (John 8:32, 14:6,
Rev. 3: 7) and Reason (John 1:1), in communion with the very Spirit of Truth (John 14:17, 15:26, 16:13, 1John 4:6) and Reason/Understanding (Is. 11:2)GǪare the ONLY winners...

Peace.
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« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2005, 12:57:21 PM »



When honesty, objectivity, critical thinking, and open-mindedness etc. are promoted; then is the the truth and reason of God vindicatedGǪSuch that He who is the progentior of Truth and Reason, and His Word who encompasses such Truth (John 8:32, 14:6,
Rev. 3: 7) and Reason (John 1:1), in communion with the very Spirit of Truth (John 14:17, 15:26, 16:13, 1John 4:6) and Reason/Understanding (Is. 11:2)GǪare the ONLY winners...

Peace.

hmm, and i always thought Love was the winner in all things...my bad...
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hmmmm...
EkhristosAnesti
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« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2005, 09:26:28 PM »

Why do you imply a contradiction? God is Love - The Progenitor, reflection, and Spirit, of perfect Love; therefore, that Love wins, is the logical consequence of the position held in my last post.

Peace.
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"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus
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