Author Topic: Why children suffer? - Pope has no answer  (Read 2736 times)

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Offline vorgos

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Why children suffer? - Pope has no answer
« on: January 18, 2015, 05:12:21 PM »
http://www.interaksyon.com/article/103259/pope-francis-at-a-loss-for-words-as-street-child-asks-why-does-god-allow-children-to-suffer

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Pope Francis later responded in his homily that it took Glyzelle "to ask a question to which there is no answer ... Why do children suffer?" The Pope was so moved by the question that he abandoned a prepared Homily.

He exhorted people to follow Glyzelle's example and courage, "to learn to weep," noting that "it was only when Jesus cried that he learned what was going on in our lives."

Yikes!

I was beginning to like the man...  :(
Christ turned the world upside down; and when the world was viewed from such a remarkable perspective, it suddenly made sense -- Fr Andrew Greeley

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Why children suffer? - Pope has no answer
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2015, 06:12:14 PM »
Look, I know people think there is some kind of cult of personality thing with Pope Francis, even among informed religious. And perhaps I perpetuate that with posts here that are hyperbolic and exaggerated cheers for the guy, which are generally meant as light-hearted or comedic. Having said that--and realizing that this post will probably be misidentified as yet another post along those lines--I find more insight and orthodoxy in the few quotes of Pope Francis here than in C.S. Lewis, Hart, and all the other people that I've read that are supposed to give answers/thoughts on such things. I honestly feel like this guy is often much like what you say the saints should be like...  which would be awesome, since I haven't yet found anyone in history like that.

Offline BrethrenBoy

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Re: Why children suffer? - Pope has no answer
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2015, 07:57:40 PM »
And of course there's already atheists saying religious people are idiots and are just making excuses for God in the comment section. :P
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Offline stavros_388

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Re: Why children suffer? - Pope has no answer
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2015, 08:36:03 PM »
http://www.interaksyon.com/article/103259/pope-francis-at-a-loss-for-words-as-street-child-asks-why-does-god-allow-children-to-suffer

Quote
Pope Francis later responded in his homily that it took Glyzelle "to ask a question to which there is no answer ... Why do children suffer?" The Pope was so moved by the question that he abandoned a prepared Homily.

He exhorted people to follow Glyzelle's example and courage, "to learn to weep," noting that "it was only when Jesus cried that he learned what was going on in our lives."

Yikes!

I was beginning to like the man...  :(

What is it about the Pope's words or approach here that have you not liking the man?
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 08:40:44 PM by stavros_388 »

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Why children suffer? - Pope has no answer
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2015, 08:40:00 PM »
And of course there's already atheists saying religious people are idiots and are just making excuses for God in the comment section. :P

They usually are.

Offline lovesupreme

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Re: Why children suffer? - Pope has no answer
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2015, 08:40:05 PM »
Pope admits to not being Jesus Christ, more at 11.

Offline Chiere

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Re: Why children suffer? - Pope has no answer
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2015, 09:53:03 PM »
Pope admits to not being Jesus Christ, more at 11.

I don't think he ever implied that he was Jesus.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Why children suffer? - Pope has no answer
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2015, 10:19:21 PM »
And of course there's already atheists saying religious people are idiots and are just making excuses for God in the comment section. :P
I actually had a bit of an epiphany on that particular angle some time ago. Obviously, I've switched "sides of the fence" since then, but I still agree with the thrust of what I wrote on a different site:

Quote
The Problem of Evil, especially as it relates to the Holocaust, has torn at me a lot over the years. It was heavy on my mind when I decided that I couldn't be a Christian anymore. Recently, though, I've begun to consider the question in a different light.

It seems to me that whether there is a God or not, all of us are still faced with a world that is both full of wonders and full of unspeakable evil. For every bird that takes flight, there's a baby that gets cancer. For every rainbow or Hubble telescope image, there's a Good Friday earthquake. I'm sick to death of theodicy and this post is not an exercise in that. If there is a God, then I'm fully prepared to find out that He is simply a sadist laughing at our suffering. But if there is no God, then we're still confronted with an existence that is nasty, brutish, and short to an extent that I'm tempted to call it a cosmic joke with no punchline.

If God has some grand reason for this, then He isn't telling us and we have no clue as to what it could possibly be. My gut tells me that there is no good reason for an omnipotent God to make the world like this, but I'm open to being wrong on that. Either way, in the face of God's silence on the matter, we might as well be living in a cold universe where suffering simply has no answer. The atheist and the theist are faced with the same absurdity in practice, if not in the ultimate reality.

So whether there is a God or not, we're also all still confronted with a choice to make-whether to "opt out."

I find that I've taken the words of Albert Camus from his Myth of Sisyphus as a sort of life motto- "There is but one truly serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide. Judging whether life is or is not worth living amounts to answering the fundamental question of philosophy." One can either find a reason to carry on in spite of the practical absurdity of existence or one can give their middle figure to the heavens.

Either way, one is equally forced to find something that one personally finds meaningful enough to justify the continuation of this painful life. Whether one lives for the glory of God or the companionship of others, it's all essentially the same thing when looked at in this light. So, I really don't see the Problem of Evil as a logical reason for not believing in God (or at least for not being a sadotheist). I disbelieve for other reasons.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 10:20:16 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Why children suffer? - Pope has no answer
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2015, 11:26:18 PM »
What is it about the Pope's words or approach here that have you not liking the man?

Probably because he said that Jesus learned what it was like to have a first person experience of the human condition, and OC.net only tolerates aphthartodocetism.

More than that: You may not want to pay the price that comes with the idea that God's omniscience means he has to have all of our first person experiences.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 11:32:00 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline vorgos

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Re: Why children suffer? - Pope has no answer
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2015, 05:50:45 AM »
http://www.interaksyon.com/article/103259/pope-francis-at-a-loss-for-words-as-street-child-asks-why-does-god-allow-children-to-suffer

Quote
Pope Francis later responded in his homily that it took Glyzelle "to ask a question to which there is no answer ... Why do children suffer?" The Pope was so moved by the question that he abandoned a prepared Homily.

He exhorted people to follow Glyzelle's example and courage, "to learn to weep," noting that "it was only when Jesus cried that he learned what was going on in our lives."

Yikes!

I was beginning to like the man...  :(

What is it about the Pope's words or approach here that have you not liking the man?

He behaves more and more like a politician I think.

Look, I don't expect him to give a discourse on the problem of pain and suffering to a crying little girl, but when later, the leader of the Roman Catholic church says that Christianity has no answer...

I just listened to Fr Hopko's podcast episode on this very topic. It sounds like to me that that Christianity has an answer. Some may not like it, some may not accept it but we DO have an answer. Have the RC forgotten it?

A cry and a hug are well good and they have their time and place, but we don't forget our theology and what, where and why we are here.

EDIT: Basically, he has made several statements that are bizarre. About Jesus, about problem of pain. I wonder if it is himself or RC theology in general.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 06:23:17 AM by vorgos »
Christ turned the world upside down; and when the world was viewed from such a remarkable perspective, it suddenly made sense -- Fr Andrew Greeley

Offline vorgos

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Re: Why children suffer? - Pope has no answer
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2015, 06:17:42 AM »
Look, I know people think there is some kind of cult of personality thing with Pope Francis, even among informed religious. And perhaps I perpetuate that with posts here that are hyperbolic and exaggerated cheers for the guy, which are generally meant as light-hearted or comedic. Having said that--and realizing that this post will probably be misidentified as yet another post along those lines--I find more insight and orthodoxy in the few quotes of Pope Francis here than in C.S. Lewis, Hart, and all the other people that I've read that are supposed to give answers/thoughts on such things. I honestly feel like this guy is often much like what you say the saints should be like...  which would be awesome, since I haven't yet found anyone in history like that.

I saw youngsters on TV behaving like he was Justin Bieber! I haven't see anything like that in Orthodoxy.

Justin, from your posts you come across as a well read guy. I find it hard to believe that you haven't found saintly persons in history. You must be reading the wrong books! Just take the recently canonized Sts Paisios and Porphyrios. Lewis and Hart have their place but to see love and humility in abundance read St Paisios' and Prophyrios' books.
Christ turned the world upside down; and when the world was viewed from such a remarkable perspective, it suddenly made sense -- Fr Andrew Greeley

Offline stavros_388

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Re: Why children suffer? - Pope has no answer
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2015, 09:32:06 AM »
http://www.interaksyon.com/article/103259/pope-francis-at-a-loss-for-words-as-street-child-asks-why-does-god-allow-children-to-suffer

Quote
Pope Francis later responded in his homily that it took Glyzelle "to ask a question to which there is no answer ... Why do children suffer?" The Pope was so moved by the question that he abandoned a prepared Homily.

He exhorted people to follow Glyzelle's example and courage, "to learn to weep," noting that "it was only when Jesus cried that he learned what was going on in our lives."

Yikes!

I was beginning to like the man...  :(

What is it about the Pope's words or approach here that have you not liking the man?

He behaves more and more like a politician I think.

Look, I don't expect him to give a discourse on the problem of pain and suffering to a crying little girl, but when later, the leader of the Roman Catholic church says that Christianity has no answer...

I just listened to Fr Hopko's podcast episode on this very topic. It sounds like to me that that Christianity has an answer. Some may not like it, some may not accept it but we DO have an answer. Have the RC forgotten it?

A cry and a hug are well good and they have their time and place, but we don't forget our theology and what, where and why we are here.

EDIT: Basically, he has made several statements that are bizarre. About Jesus, about problem of pain. I wonder if it is himself or RC theology in general.


I see. I can appreciate what you're saying. Thanks for taking the time to elaborate.

I guess we can always roll out the old, well-crafted theodicies and try to make sense of the suffering in the world. But when face to face with abject suffering, when actually encountering a child in the midst of horrible suffering, all those words just kind of ring hollow, don't you think? Christ wept. Suffering is a terrible mystery. No theological masterpiece will comfort homeless child prostitutes.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 09:34:19 AM by stavros_388 »

Offline vorgos

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Re: Why children suffer? - Pope has no answer
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2015, 11:38:01 AM »
http://www.interaksyon.com/article/103259/pope-francis-at-a-loss-for-words-as-street-child-asks-why-does-god-allow-children-to-suffer

Quote
Pope Francis later responded in his homily that it took Glyzelle "to ask a question to which there is no answer ... Why do children suffer?" The Pope was so moved by the question that he abandoned a prepared Homily.

He exhorted people to follow Glyzelle's example and courage, "to learn to weep," noting that "it was only when Jesus cried that he learned what was going on in our lives."

Yikes!

I was beginning to like the man...  :(

What is it about the Pope's words or approach here that have you not liking the man?

He behaves more and more like a politician I think.

Look, I don't expect him to give a discourse on the problem of pain and suffering to a crying little girl, but when later, the leader of the Roman Catholic church says that Christianity has no answer...

I just listened to Fr Hopko's podcast episode on this very topic. It sounds like to me that that Christianity has an answer. Some may not like it, some may not accept it but we DO have an answer. Have the RC forgotten it?

A cry and a hug are well good and they have their time and place, but we don't forget our theology and what, where and why we are here.

EDIT: Basically, he has made several statements that are bizarre. About Jesus, about problem of pain. I wonder if it is himself or RC theology in general.


I see. I can appreciate what you're saying. Thanks for taking the time to elaborate.

I guess we can always roll out the old, well-crafted theodicies and try to make sense of the suffering in the world. But when face to face with abject suffering, when actually encountering a child in the midst of horrible suffering, all those words just kind of ring hollow, don't you think? Christ wept. Suffering is a terrible mystery. No theological masterpiece will comfort homeless child prostitutes.

I find Fr Hopko's discussion on the matter very comforting. It is surely better than the Pope's, ah well, I have not idea, but here is a hug!

Lets be clear. To a child, depending on the age, you may respond with just a hug because they are not equipped to handle more. But there is more.

For anyone interested here is Fr Hopko's podcast link ( may the Lord grant him many more years).

http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/theological_reflections_on_calamity
« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 11:39:00 AM by vorgos »
Christ turned the world upside down; and when the world was viewed from such a remarkable perspective, it suddenly made sense -- Fr Andrew Greeley

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Why children suffer? - Pope has no answer
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2015, 01:42:14 PM »
but here is a hug!
In olden times it was a whirlwind
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.