Author Topic: How does the "Apocrypha" work in Orthodoxy?  (Read 3590 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,175
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
How does the "Apocrypha" work in Orthodoxy?
« on: January 13, 2015, 12:45:31 AM »
A branch-off topic from here.

I have not looked into it much, but this is what I've gleaned so far:

In the Orthodox Church they are considered Anagignoskomena ("worthy to be read"), having a kind of secondary authority, right? They're considered spiritually good, but not independent sources of doctrine.

For example, 2nd Maccabees contains an example of prayer for the dead, but is not the Orthodox Church's primary source for the practice.

If that's so, I think the Reformers were basically of the same mind about them then- in contrast to the modern Evangelical phobia of them.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 12:56:05 AM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Minnesotan

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,329
  • Milo Thatch is the ONLY Milo for me. #FreeAtlantis
Re: How does the "Apocrypha" work in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2015, 01:12:08 AM »
A branch-off topic from here.

I have not looked into it much, but this is what I've gleaned so far:

In the Orthodox Church they are considered Anagignoskomena ("worthy to be read"), having a kind of secondary authority, right? They're considered spiritually good, but not independent sources of doctrine.

For example, 2nd Maccabees contains an example of prayer for the dead, but is not the Orthodox Church's primary source for the practice.

If that's so, I think the Reformers were basically of the same mind about them then- in contrast to the modern Evangelical phobia of them.

I'd agree that the Reformers were very different from modern evangelicals (and what's maddening is the fact that the latter always seem to be blissfully unaware of this fact).

Luther called the deuterocanonical books "useful and good for reading", which is basically the same as calling them Anagignoskomena. On the other hand, he referred to the book of James (which is in the Protestant/Evangelical canon) as "Jimmy" and said he used it to fire his stove!

Protestant Bibles relegated those books to an addendum section, but did not remove them entirely until the 19th century (yes, 19th!) The reason they did so then was purely financial; to save on printing costs. Someone must have asked the rather utilitarianist question, "if these books are not absolutely necessary for salvation, why spend any time or money on them?"
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Online Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,175
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: How does the "Apocrypha" work in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2015, 01:22:46 AM »
Huh. I was under the impression he was essentially just kidding. He called it difficult to understand and suspected it was not written by an Apostle, but was still willing to include it since it was attested by (ironically) traditional use in the Church (which was also basically Eusebius' view of Revelation).
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Online Asteriktos

  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,818
Re: How does the "Apocrypha" work in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2015, 01:28:40 AM »
Fwiw, the Anglican theologian John Barton wrote a thoughtful book along the lines of what you're asking about, titled: Holy Writings, Sacred Text: The Canon of Early Christianity. Even apart from that, of the two dozen or so books I've read on canon formation, this was probably the most interesting.

Online Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,175
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: How does the "Apocrypha" work in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2015, 01:29:29 AM »
Thanks
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,135
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: How does the "Apocrypha" work in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2015, 01:48:33 AM »
Huh. I was under the impression he was essentially just kidding. He called it difficult to understand and suspected it was not written by an Apostle, but was still willing to include it since it was attested by (ironically) traditional use in the Church (which was also basically Eusebius' view of Revelation).

No. His writings are violent on the subject, especially when he had to defend a spurious translation of a passage in Romans and his critics pointed to St. James. On the other hand, he also wanted to remove Esther. People from the modern perspective think of Luther as a religious conservative, but for his time he was basically an Erasmean humanist (where he got his basic theology directly, actually) in a respectably religious shell.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline DeniseDenise

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,712
  • This place holds to nothing....
  • Faith: Does it matter?
  • Jurisdiction: Unverifiable, so irrelevant
Re: How does the "Apocrypha" work in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2015, 01:51:54 AM »
I think it works by reading it.....
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,587
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: How does the "Apocrypha" work in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2015, 02:39:32 AM »
I think it works by reading it.....

Hey, it does!  :D
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Online Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,175
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: How does the "Apocrypha" work in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2015, 03:20:27 AM »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Online Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,175
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: How does the "Apocrypha" work in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2015, 03:20:41 AM »
Huh. I was under the impression he was essentially just kidding. He called it difficult to understand and suspected it was not written by an Apostle, but was still willing to include it since it was attested by (ironically) traditional use in the Church (which was also basically Eusebius' view of Revelation).

No. His writings are violent on the subject, especially when he had to defend a spurious translation of a passage in Romans and his critics pointed to St. James. On the other hand, he also wanted to remove Esther. People from the modern perspective think of Luther as a religious conservative, but for his time he was basically an Erasmean humanist (where he got his basic theology directly, actually) in a respectably religious shell.
Ah, ok.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,322
  • Faith: Orthodox Catholic Church
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: How does the "Apocrypha" work in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2015, 03:47:29 AM »
Huh. I was under the impression he was essentially just kidding. He called it difficult to understand and suspected it was not written by an Apostle, but was still willing to include it since it was attested by (ironically) traditional use in the Church (which was also basically Eusebius' view of Revelation).

No. His writings are violent on the subject, especially when he had to defend a spurious translation of a passage in Romans and his critics pointed to St. James. On the other hand, he also wanted to remove Esther. People from the modern perspective think of Luther as a religious conservative, but for his time he was basically an Erasmean humanist (where he got his basic theology directly, actually) in a respectably religious shell.

Well, measuring how 'religiously conservative' DML was and the RC Church was at the time is a real hard thing to do.
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,135
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: How does the "Apocrypha" work in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2015, 03:51:48 AM »
Huh. I was under the impression he was essentially just kidding. He called it difficult to understand and suspected it was not written by an Apostle, but was still willing to include it since it was attested by (ironically) traditional use in the Church (which was also basically Eusebius' view of Revelation).

No. His writings are violent on the subject, especially when he had to defend a spurious translation of a passage in Romans and his critics pointed to St. James. On the other hand, he also wanted to remove Esther. People from the modern perspective think of Luther as a religious conservative, but for his time he was basically an Erasmean humanist (where he got his basic theology directly, actually) in a respectably religious shell.

Well, measuring how 'religiously conservative' DML was and the RC Church was at the time is a real hard thing to do.

Howso? We have little difficulty assigning "liberal" status to Renaissance humanists and "reactionary" status to Counterreformationaries like Ignatius. Martin Luther can be placed on such a continuum.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,322
  • Faith: Orthodox Catholic Church
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: How does the "Apocrypha" work in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2015, 04:47:44 AM »
Huh. I was under the impression he was essentially just kidding. He called it difficult to understand and suspected it was not written by an Apostle, but was still willing to include it since it was attested by (ironically) traditional use in the Church (which was also basically Eusebius' view of Revelation).

No. His writings are violent on the subject, especially when he had to defend a spurious translation of a passage in Romans and his critics pointed to St. James. On the other hand, he also wanted to remove Esther. People from the modern perspective think of Luther as a religious conservative, but for his time he was basically an Erasmean humanist (where he got his basic theology directly, actually) in a respectably religious shell.

Well, measuring how 'religiously conservative' DML was and the RC Church was at the time is a real hard thing to do.

Howso? We have little difficulty assigning "liberal" status to Renaissance humanists and "reactionary" status to Counterreformationaries like Ignatius. Martin Luther can be placed on such a continuum.

Well, I'll give you Ignatius of Loyola. But I won't give you Pope Leo X.
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline zaphod

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 52
Re: How does the "Apocrypha" work in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2015, 05:37:44 AM »
I disagree with the idea that there is a clear division between so-called apocrypha and so-called protocanon. Every book has its own unique place in history, and just because Jew or Protestants picked a particular 39 books, doesn't mean to us (Orthodox) that this is a real division. Of course many of the books in the so-called proto-canon are more important than many books in the so-called apocrypha. But not always. Look at Esther for example as not being highly regarded in history.

Offline wgw

  • All scorpions must DIE!!!
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,816
  • This icon is of St. Athansius.
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: How does the "Apocrypha" work in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2015, 08:06:52 AM »
I've known some Orthodox who regard Tobit, Wisdom, Eccleiasticus, and so on, as on the same level as proto canon.  At a minimum everyone I've known considers them Deuterocanonical.  The question also has to be asked, since we don't read Revelations in the church, is it not also in a certain sense Deuterocanonical?   It seems to me if one was to draw a distinction in Orthodoxy between a proto and a Deutero canon, it should be based on whether or not the books in question are read liturgically.

If the Orthodox have Apocrypha, Imwould say works like 1 Enoch and the other items in the Ethiopian Broad Canon could be so classed, as well as those books which nearly made it into the canon but did not: the Shepherd of Hermas, The Didache, 1 Barnabas, the Protoevangelium of James, and so forth.  If memory served, Arhanasius, in his famous Paschal encyclical that first presented our current NT canon, said of those other works, that they were worth reading, just not in the church.

Then there is that class of apocryphal which is utterly rejected: the Gnostic Gospels, the Apocalypse of Peter, the Manicaean literature, and so on.  Recently, a group of liberal Bible scholars including Bart Ehrman, John Dominic Crossan, Elaine Pagels and the other "usual suspects" dared to publish a "New New Testament" that appends ten of these Gnostic books to the canonical 27.  I wonder how long before that becomes standard in churches like herchurch and St. Gregory of Nyassa Episcopal Church in San Francisco.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,587
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: How does the "Apocrypha" work in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2015, 09:00:13 AM »
Wisdom of Solomon is drawn from for liturgical readings at Vespers for certain feasts.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline LenInSebastopol

  • Dimly Illumined
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,595
Re: How does the "Apocrypha" work in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2015, 10:08:46 AM »
Huh. I was under the impression he was essentially just kidding. He called it difficult to understand and suspected it was not written by an Apostle, but was still willing to include it since it was attested by (ironically) traditional use in the Church (which was also basically Eusebius' view of Revelation).

Luther found it difficult to understand St. James, and he was right, if one is a Protestant. It has to do with "works" and fits not well with FAITH ALONE for Salvation.
God is The Creator of All Free Beings

Online Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,175
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: How does the "Apocrypha" work in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2015, 09:12:43 PM »
Huh. I was under the impression he was essentially just kidding. He called it difficult to understand and suspected it was not written by an Apostle, but was still willing to include it since it was attested by (ironically) traditional use in the Church (which was also basically Eusebius' view of Revelation).

Luther found it difficult to understand St. James, and he was right, if one is a Protestant. It has to do with "works" and fits not well with FAITH ALONE for Salvation.
I disagree, but that's probably off-topic.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline LenInSebastopol

  • Dimly Illumined
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,595
Re: How does the "Apocrypha" work in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2015, 09:26:52 PM »
Huh. I was under the impression he was essentially just kidding. He called it difficult to understand and suspected it was not written by an Apostle, but was still willing to include it since it was attested by (ironically) traditional use in the Church (which was also basically Eusebius' view of Revelation).

Luther found it difficult to understand St. James, and he was right, if one is a Protestant. It has to do with "works" and fits not well with FAITH ALONE for Salvation.
I disagree, but that's probably off-topic.

Probably is off topic, and I expect mostly disagreement about much of everything posted, but my info is from a former Lutheran, now Evangelical Pastor, with an MDiv from Fullerton. I don't know as I've no time to read original sources, German, or just about anything much except this forum and Holy Fathers; am considering giving up one, but I still want the truth, so......although this is "fun".
God is The Creator of All Free Beings

Online Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,175
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: How does the "Apocrypha" work in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2015, 09:37:05 PM »
Huh. I was under the impression he was essentially just kidding. He called it difficult to understand and suspected it was not written by an Apostle, but was still willing to include it since it was attested by (ironically) traditional use in the Church (which was also basically Eusebius' view of Revelation).

Luther found it difficult to understand St. James, and he was right, if one is a Protestant. It has to do with "works" and fits not well with FAITH ALONE for Salvation.
I disagree, but that's probably off-topic.

Probably is off topic, and I expect mostly disagreement about much of everything posted, but my info is from a former Lutheran, now Evangelical Pastor, with an MDiv from Fullerton. I don't know as I've no time to read original sources, German, or just about anything much except this forum and Holy Fathers; am considering giving up one, but I still want the truth, so......although this is "fun".
It's alright. I'm likely going to be scaling back my posting soon, as well.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 09:37:24 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline TITL

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Re: How does the "Apocrypha" work in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2015, 09:42:25 PM »
I was actually wondering about this today. I was listening to an Orthodox podcast on Ancient Faith and she said the Apocrypha does not contain spiritual doctrine and should not be read like the Bible. This confused me because I read from an Orthodox Study Bible at home. Am I supposed to skip over these books because they lack spiritual teaching? Lol doesn't make sense.

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,587
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: How does the "Apocrypha" work in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2015, 09:47:04 PM »
I was actually wondering about this today. I was listening to an Orthodox podcast on Ancient Faith and she said the Apocrypha does not contain spiritual doctrine and should not be read like the Bible. This confused me because I read from an Orthodox Study Bible at home. Am I supposed to skip over these books because they lack spiritual teaching? Lol doesn't make sense.

It doesn't. If they did not contain spiritual doctrine, then why would the Church draw from these books for liturgical readings, and to incorporate passages and imagery from them in hymns and prayers?
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline TITL

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Re: How does the "Apocrypha" work in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2015, 09:49:02 PM »
I was actually wondering about this today. I was listening to an Orthodox podcast on Ancient Faith and she said the Apocrypha does not contain spiritual doctrine and should not be read like the Bible. This confused me because I read from an Orthodox Study Bible at home. Am I supposed to skip over these books because they lack spiritual teaching? Lol doesn't make sense.

It doesn't. If they did not contain spiritual doctrine, then why would the Church draw from these books for liturgical readings, and to incorporate passages and imagery from them in hymns and prayers?

That's why I'm confused! :P
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 09:49:32 PM by TITL »

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,322
  • Faith: Orthodox Catholic Church
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: How does the "Apocrypha" work in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2015, 09:54:59 PM »
I was actually wondering about this today. I was listening to an Orthodox podcast on Ancient Faith and she said the Apocrypha does not contain spiritual doctrine and should not be read like the Bible. This confused me because I read from an Orthodox Study Bible at home. Am I supposed to skip over these books because they lack spiritual teaching? Lol doesn't make sense.

It doesn't. If they did not contain spiritual doctrine, then why would the Church draw from these books for liturgical readings, and to incorporate passages and imagery from them in hymns and prayers?

That's why I'm confused! :P

The Fathers clearly believed they were worth doctrine and teaching or else they wouldn't have quoted them, St. Athanasius quotes Wisdom of Solomon 2 in order to explain how Christ's resurrection had an effect on the status of our fallen humanity.
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline TITL

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Re: How does the "Apocrypha" work in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2015, 10:15:11 PM »
I was actually wondering about this today. I was listening to an Orthodox podcast on Ancient Faith and she said the Apocrypha does not contain spiritual doctrine and should not be read like the Bible. This confused me because I read from an Orthodox Study Bible at home. Am I supposed to skip over these books because they lack spiritual teaching? Lol doesn't make sense.

It doesn't. If they did not contain spiritual doctrine, then why would the Church draw from these books for liturgical readings, and to incorporate passages and imagery from them in hymns and prayers?

That's why I'm confused! :P

The Fathers clearly believed they were worth doctrine and teaching or else they wouldn't have quoted them, St. Athanasius quotes Wisdom of Solomon 2 in order to explain how Christ's resurrection had an effect on the status of our fallen humanity.

Alright I need to go back to that podcast and listen again to what she said, because now I'm convinced I misunderstood her.

Offline TITL

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Re: How does the "Apocrypha" work in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2015, 10:49:53 PM »
Ok her exact words:

"The Bible is Holy Scripture but the Apocrypha is not. We look to the Bible alone for doctrine; we don't look to Apocrypha writings for doctrine."

And I thought this whole time that the Apocrypha was part of the Bible!

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,587
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: How does the "Apocrypha" work in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2015, 10:53:30 PM »
Ok her exact words:

"The Bible is Holy Scripture but the Apocrypha is not. We look to the Bible alone for doctrine; we don't look to Apocrypha writings for doctrine."

And I thought this whole time that the Apocrypha was part of the Bible!

Either she has a very narrow definition of what doctrine means, or she is flat wrong. Unless she's referring to the heretical books like the Gospel of Judas, etc, which still doesn't make sense, as these writings aren't in the Bible at all.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline TITL

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Re: How does the "Apocrypha" work in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2015, 11:04:18 PM »
She's not referring to heretical books. Prior to what I quoted she talked about how some Jewish oral traditions and other writings are passed down to us ie; how Abraham was a monotheist (though it's not in the Bible, it's something we believe). That's when she started talking about Apocrypha: that we accept it, but it's not Holy Scripture.

Maybe it's best I ask her to clarify because I don't think she's wrong. Although it sounds pretty clear, I still think I'm misunderstanding!
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 11:05:21 PM by TITL »

Offline JamesR

  • The Second Coming of Jason
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,915
  • Remember me?
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: How does the "Apocrypha" work in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2015, 02:37:18 AM »
Before questioning the Apocrypha, it may be of some benefit for you to question what Scripture is and what it means to Orthodoxy, as well as how the canon works.

It's important to note in Orthodoxy that we don't judge our Scripture based on some concept of "validity" like in the West, with a closed canon, but that we judge the books based on their spiritual value. Thus, there isn't necessarily a closed canon and many Fathers and jurisdictions even have differing canons due to what they believe is more spiritually beneficial.

That said, the Apocrypha IS Scripture, however, just as the rest of the Scriptures are ranked and judged by their spiritual value, so is the Apocrypha. The Apocrypha, while still undoubtedly Scripture, is generally understood as the LEAST spiritually beneficial Scripture and is therefore around the bottom of that ranking system.

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,587
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: How does the "Apocrypha" work in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2015, 02:53:14 AM »
Quote
The Apocrypha, while still undoubtedly Scripture, is generally understood as the LEAST spiritually beneficial Scripture and is therefore around the bottom of that ranking system.

Explain then, why readings from Wisdom are appointed for festal vespers for hierarchs and other saints. Explain why the Book of Daniel, including the Song of the Holy Youths, is one of the fifteen OT readings appointed for the vesperal liturgy of Holy Saturday. Explain why Baruch is read from at the Royal Hours for the Nativity of the Lord.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Online Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,175
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: How does the "Apocrypha" work in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2015, 03:34:42 AM »
Quote
The Apocrypha, while still undoubtedly Scripture, is generally understood as the LEAST spiritually beneficial Scripture and is therefore around the bottom of that ranking system.

Explain then, why readings from Wisdom are appointed for festal vespers for hierarchs and other saints. Explain why the Book of Daniel, including the Song of the Holy Youths, is one of the fifteen OT readings appointed for the vesperal liturgy of Holy Saturday. Explain why Baruch is read from at the Royal Hours for the Nativity of the Lord.
I suppose those could be the most useful lines in a set of otherwise suboptimal books.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline TITL

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Re: How does the "Apocrypha" work in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2015, 07:59:24 AM »
So I was right about misunderstanding her. The apocrypha is scripture to us and only Protestants use the term when referring to the books removed by Martin Luther. But to us, it is just Old Testament.